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TenSura LN Major Revision - Slime-Verse Salvation - Tier 1 Upgrade

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World 「世界, sekai」, one of the most basic constructs in the Cosmology, the word itself is mostly used to describe the same term, but sometimes, can also be seen being used interchangeably with "Dimensions" and/or "Timelines/Cycles".
When has world be used interchangeably with timeline and dimensions lol
Additionally, as stated above that each Cycle has its own Time Axis and Space-Time Continuum, each of its Time Axis is also distinct from one another as each Cycle has its own distinct set of events, as explained below :

The LN official translation states that Chloes time travel always took place in the same time axis so this is blatantly wrong Even the tensura cosmology blog also made that same mistake of saying Chloe always went to a different time axis in each cycle lol and even saying there are infinite cycle just because Chloe said she mentioned has had infinite cycles of death and rebirth which should not be taken as face value makes the cosmology 2A which is also wrong

Guess I'll have to write a CRT thread in the future when the official translation of vol 21 and 22 comes out because there are so many errors there.
Tensura verse shouldn't be up to 2A
 
When has world be used interchangeably with timeline and dimensions lol

The LN official translation states that Chloes time travel always took place in the same time axis so this is blatantly wrong Even the tensura cosmology blog also made that same mistake of saying Chloe always went to a different time axis in each cycle lol and even saying there are infinite cycle just because Chloe said she mentioned has had infinite cycles of death and rebirth which should not be taken as face value makes the cosmology 2A which is also wrong

Guess I'll have to write a CRT thread in the future when the official translation of vol 21 and 22 comes out because there are so many errors there.
Tensura verse shouldn't be up to 2A
You won't write a thread buddy. You can try and it will get closed immediately 😂. Who let this newbie cook
 
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When has world be used interchangeably with timeline and dimensions lol
Example
The LN official translation states that Chloes time travel always took place in the same time axis so this is blatantly wrong
Mate, that specifically used the term "Era", its talking about how her stay in all the timelines was during the same time frame[aka around a bit before when veldora was sealed to when Rimuru died]
even saying there are infinite cycle just because Chloe said she mentioned has had infinite cycles of death and rebirth which should not be taken as face value makes the cosmology 2A which is also wrong
Because each one of her cycles was a different timeline with different events
Not really "Just" when the game literally says the same as well.
Guess I'll have to write a CRT thread in the future when the official translation of vol 21 and 22 comes out because there are so many errors there.
Go ahead, if you're confident.
Tensura verse shouldn't be up to 2A
I could yap so much against this specific point.. but sigh, its not worth it since I'll be bringing up things not related to this thread.
 
First that only means that the semi-physical world is connected to the elemental and demon realm. That doesn't mean that world meant dimension or timelines here
Mate, that specifically used the term "Era", its talking about how her stay in all the timelines was during the same time frame[aka around a bit before when veldora was sealed to when Rimuru died]
Also if u read further u will see she said "Apparently her time took place in the same era, in the same axis of time" it's literally stated there lol. It only takes her back in time to repeat it like a cycle as u can see in the first statement here
It's not a different timeline. I don't know where you're seeing that from
Because each one of her cycles was a different timeline with different events
Not really "Just" when the game literally says the same as well.
Bro Like I said above it's not stated that it's a different timeline. She just goes back in time and repeats it again like a cyclic event in the same time axis and that chloe statement of infinite cycle of birth and rebirth is likely to be a metaphorical statement but you took it as face value all in name of powerscaling
 
First that only means that the semi-physical world is connected to the elemental and demon realm. That doesn't mean that world meant dimension or timelines here
"Worlds" are contained within Dimensions -_-
so the only thing "Another world" there can be referring to is Dimensions

Also if u read further u will see she said "Apparently her time took place in the same era, in the same axis of time" it's literally stated there lol. It only takes her back in time to repeat it like a cycle as u can see in the first statement here
I literally just debunked the "same axis of time thing" in the part you're quoting of my reply -_-
Keyword : Era and Time Axis are used interchangeably in that specific para
Let me quote myself again if you couldn't comprehend what I said :
Mate, that specifically used the term "Era", its talking about how her stay in all the timelines was during the same time frame[aka around a bit before when veldora was sealed to when Rimuru died]
Bro Like I said above it's not stated that it's a different timeline. She just goes back in time and repeats it again like a cyclic event in the same time axis
I've already explained how the World prevents contradictions from happening in the same timeline, that's why each time chloe loops, she travels into another timeline, as there is an already existing adult chloe version of herself in the timeline she would be in at the moment. Her repeating her cycles in the exact same timeline wouldn't make sense because of the world contradiction thing.

Additionally, Volume 17 confirms the existence of multiple timelines.

and that chloe statement of infinite cycle of birth and rebirth is likely to be a metaphorical statement but you took it as face value all in name of powerscaling
Note :
  • The term "Infinite" is not metaphorical because even in the game, we're presented with the fact that it was an endless loop. Additionally, it cannot be any less then Infinite cycles because Chloe spent a finite amount of time in each cycle, yet the mask's time compression is Infinity. Aka, it has existed since an Infinite amount of time.
  • The term "Cycle" isn't metaphorical either since in the game, we're presented with it being called Loops, and the fact that two same individuals cannot exist in the same time cycle means each Chloe travelled to a different timeline[because if she travelled in the past of the timeline she was already in, she would overlap with the adult Chloe already present there, causing a contradiction and world collapse. The only thing that can prevent that from happening is if she travels to another timeline. This is also already proven by the fact that at beyond space and time, where Rimuru was sent via Feldway, "the timeline was over" yet time still passed. That is, only a single timeline was over. And after THAT timeline was over, a supposed eternity passed until they reached the end of time where the world itself was destroyed.
 
Please forgive berga he is new to the wiki. I believe I should add one more evidence here since you still have doubts regarding tensura infinite size. If this isn't enough then idk what is

The time compression of the mask is Infinite. Skip to 13.40


and to further clarify the mask is a subject of paradox which should be enough to prove those cycles or loops are infinite

Also the idea or the existence of parallel universes was proven somewhere in Volume 17. I believe the op explained it very well Why it follows one world theory. The rest is up to you to comprehend

And read this.
 
infinite cycle of birth and rebirth is likely to be a metaphorical statement
The multi-world interpretation implies that there are an uncountable number of worlds, and according to Fuse's multiverse interpretation, a single difference in a single afterimage (one of the uncountable infinite afterimage in space-time continuum) of Cardinal World's timeline, caused by Chloe's time travel, causes the main timeline to branch into another timeline. So there is no reason to accept the infinite loop statement as unreal.
 
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Worlds" are contained within Dimensions -_-
so the only thing "Another world" there can be referring to is Dimensions
It's said "there are so called other words residing in alternate dimensions" so how does other world refer to dimension when it's already residing in a dimension?
I literally just debunked the "same axis of time thing" in the part you're quoting of my reply -_-
Keyword : Era and Time Axis are used interchangeably in that specific para
Let me quote myself again if you couldn't comprehend what I said
What are you debunking when it's simply stated there? It was never used Interchangeably lol. You're just using head canon because the statement is very clear that her time travel takes place in the same axis of time. That was the limitations of her skills
I've already explained how the World prevents contradictions from happening in the same timeline, that's why each time chloe loops, she travels into another timeline, as there is an already existing adult chloe version of herself in the timeline she would be in at the moment. Her repeating her cycles in the exact same timeline wouldn't make sense because of the world contradiction thing.
Yes the world contradicts that from happening but if you have enough power (as Chloes mask have) you can shove in any paradox u like as stated here after that statement of the world contradicting stuff

so I don't knows here u got different timelines from

Additionally, Volume 17 confirms the existence of multiple timelines
I never said they weren't multiple timelines. I only said there's no such thing as Infinite timelines in tensura. It has never been stated or implied
The term "Infinite" is not metaphorical because even in the game, we're presented with the fact that it was an endless loop. Additionally, it cannot be any less then Infinite cycles because Chloe spent a finite amount of time in each cycle, yet the mask's time compression is Infinity. Aka, it has existed since an Infinite amount of time.
First that your interpretation that it has existed since an infinite amount of time is very vague but let's say we even take the Infinite cycle stuff at face value. It won't still change anything because it's stated that her time travel always took place in the same time axis and not different timelines as you're implying lol so it still doesn't mean tensura has infinite timelines
The term "Cycle" isn't metaphorical either since in the game, we're presented with it being called Loops, and the fact that two same individuals cannot exist in the same time cycle means each Chloe travelled to a different timeline[because if she travelled in the past of the timeline she was already in, she would overlap with the adult Chloe already present there, causing a contradiction and world collapse. The only thing that can prevent that from happening is if she travels to another timeline. This is also already proven by the fact that at beyond space and time, where Rimuru was sent via Feldway, "the timeline was over" yet time still passed. That is, only a single timeline was over. And after THAT timeline was over, a supposed eternity passed until they reached the end of time where the world itself was destroyed.
I've already explained the contradicting stuff above and why are you separating the words? I only said that the "infinite cycle" can be a metaphorical statement and not cycle or infinte alone so I don't understand why you're seperating both lol
 
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The multi-world interpretation implies that there are an uncountable number of worlds, and according to Fuse's multiverse interpretation, a single difference in a single afterimage (one of the uncountable infinite afterimage in space-time continuum) of Cardinal World's timeline, caused by Chloe's time travel, causes the main timeline to branch into another timeline. So there is no reason to accept the infinite loop statement as unreal
This was never stated lol
 
You are just reusing the scans while repeating the argument you did not bring anything new to the table
If the opposing question can be answered with the same scan I can bring it up again and why are you lashing out at me when he's literally using head canon here to try debunk me.
 
Just read the scans in the OP (original post) and make the connection between them, you don't need to do any incredible reasoning or anything.
Many of the explanation in the OP are flawed lol. I don't just have enough time with me to write about it
 
he's literally using head canon here to try debunk me.
In the first place, you brought up the statement "this could be a metaphor" and I explained you why I had no reason to think so. There's really no debunk or head canon here.
 
Yes to further prove it he delay and wasted our time to wait for his replies
Bro said I wasted his time lol
And there is also this weird behaviour of him deleting and posting replies
My phone is having problems so it keeps touching and also didn't know that I can edit something when its already posted but I've figured it out now
The op already addressed all the problem but he still continue to yap
What's your problem with me lol? Is it because I'm against the OP? All my counter argument are valid if you even actually read it
 
This god damn verse is either extremely underestimated or extremely wanked, there really is no in between. 🙍
even though I'm sure this verse has a lot of extremely wanked feats on this wiki, but i also agree with you in this Verse is also always underestimated
 
I can simply say that no justification here provides a perpendicular temporal direction that would give you extra axis. It just means that what I have read and what I have seen are just different timelines, so they are not different temporal dimensions flowing in different directions. That is, time still flows back and forth in the same direction, even though different timelines are different from each other. So, it's not a perpendicularity.


In short, I don't see tier 1 here.

I also don't understand why hyperspace was given, it seems like a very random scale.
 
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I can simply say that no justification here provides a perpendicular temporal direction that would give you extra axis. It just means that what I have read and what I have seen are just different timelines, so they are not different temporal dimensions flowing in different directions. That is, time still flows back and forth in the same direction, even though different timelines are different from each other. So, it's not a perpendicularity.


In short, I don't see tier 1 here.

I also don't understand why hyperspace was given, it seems like a very random scale.
for this time, i agree with your opinion
 
Bro Like I said above it's not stated that it's a different timeline. She just goes back in time and repeats it again like a cyclic event in the same time axis and that chloe statement of infinite cycle of birth and rebirth is likely to be a metaphorical statement but you took it as face value all in name of powerscaling
I would have believed it too if there weren't so many mentions of the same thing several times, in fact, a metaphor stops being considered once it is mentioned multiple times, something that Volumes 11 and 12 did well so, that 2-A for The moment is well placed.
 
I can simply say that no justification here provides a perpendicular temporal direction that would give you extra axis. It just means that what I have read and what I have seen are just different timelines, so they are not different temporal dimensions flowing in different directions. That is, time still flows back and forth in the same direction, even though different timelines are different from each other. So, it's not a perpendicularity.


In short, I don't see tier 1 here.

I also don't understand why hyperspace was given, it seems like a very random scale.
Did you read how what we tried to explain on page 3 works, about how perpendicular Meli explained it?
 
I can simply say that no justification here provides a perpendicular temporal direction that would give you extra axis. It just means that what I have read and what I have seen are just different timelines, so they are not different temporal dimensions flowing in different directions. That is, time still flows back and forth in the same direction, even though different timelines are different from each other. So, it's not a perpendicularity.


In short, I don't see tier 1 here.

I also don't understand why hyperspace was given, it seems like a very random scale.
As a scan of the OP shows, each timeline has a different time axis than the others. Also, a special time traveler (Velgrynd's) can access the prior versions of the world. This is to show that the world has two time dimensions.

Now why hyperspace?
Here is what the tiering system FAQ says:
A spacetime continuum with two time axes, instead of just one, could likewise be visualized as a line comprised of uncountably infinitely many points, each of which is a static "snapshot" of the entire regular timeline with 3 space and 1 time dimension.
Here, the timelines serving as "snapshots" all share the same temporal axis, but in our case the temporal axes are different. It is therefore to serve all these axes that the hyperspace with a higher temporal dimension is necessary.
 
I would have believed it too if there weren't so many mentions of the same thing several times, in fact, a metaphor stops being considered once it is mentioned multiple times, something that Volumes 11 and 12 did well so, that 2-A for The moment is well placed.
That would have been true except that it's stated her cycles of time travel always took place in the same axis of time
 
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Additional 5D Time Axis
Since it seems that this is the most controversial point of the OP, thinking that this is a spatial dimension and not understanding that it is just an analogy, then I will show that this "other timeline" is in fact orthogonal and not only that, but it MUST exist in order to embody the view of cosmology that the OP proposes.

What the OP proposes is the idea of an additional time dimension that "holds" the non-orthogonal "streams" of time flowing in "different directions", so let's simplify it this way:

So under that idea we have two 4-dimensional spaces, represented by the coordinates (X, Y, Z, T) for the first and (X', Y', Z', T') for the second. Where each coordinate can be any real value (R). In order to represent what the OP states it is necessary to add a fifth dimension (u) which is equal to the rest in its real values.

Then in this way we can represent the two systems flowing in a different direction as a subspace within a 5-dimensional Euclidean space, so we can express each point in the space as a tuple of 5 real numbers (X, Y, Z, T, U) and (X', Y', Z', T').

About orthogonality
Let's talk about orthogonality:

In this simplification, where we embody each vector of the universal tetradimensional space it is possible to demonstrate the orthogonality of the new value (u) by representing the vectors, functions and calculations that nobody here is interested in, so I will simplify it:

To prove that a vector is orthogonal to another it is necessary that its scalar product is equal to 0.

Let's consider a vector in this 5-dimensional space represented by the coordinates (x, y, z, t, u). We can define two vectors:

1. The vector representing the spatial and temporal coordinates (x, y, z, t).

2. The vector representing only the time coordinate u, i.e. (0, 0, 0, 0, 0, u).

Then we calculate its scalar product:

Scalar product = (x * 0) + (y * 0) + (z * 0) + (t * 0) + (u * 0) = 0.

Since this is a simplification of the real time line we are talking about, and a simplification of the equations needed to prove orthogonality, and will not convince many, we must also consider the following:

In order to "accommodate" two tetradimensional spaces that "flow" in non-orthogonal directions it becomes necessary to have a space in which to accommodate such a "change".

Let's simplify it further by using the analogy of the OP: to represent two lines going in two non-orthogonal directions requires the idea of a two-dimensional plane, where each line can have its own specific direction in that plane.

However, in order for this to be possible, and for each line to follow its direction properly, it is necessary that the newly added dimension be orthogonal to the first. This is because only orthogonal dimensions allow directions to be separated and represented without interfering with each other, intersecting or confusing each other. (Just as we know what happens with slime timelines).

How this works in timelines and counterarguments.

However we are looking at this from a simplified, and "spatial" form so how would it work in timelines?

Let's look at it abstractly: Recall that each coordinate can be expressed as a tuple of 5 real numbers, and that each coordinate is itself a set of real numbers, i.e. it is possible to "divide" each dimension into points of the lower dimension where each can be represented by a real number. Then we can look at it in the following way:

Just as changes in time (T) affect the 3-dimensional set, changes in the second dimension of time (u) represent alterations in the 4-dimensional sets, and by varying the value of (u), changes in the coordinates of both sets will be observed. To visualize this better, we can understand that "changing the value of u" would be equivalent to choosing any number between [0 and ♾️], and such a "change" is equal to "choosing any time" of the 4-dimensional set.

But some questions arise:

Is (u) really necessary for the two sets to "flow" in different directions?

Yes, in fact it is absolutely necessary. Let's see:

The flow of each 4-dimensional set, implies that their states change over time (u) (in fact, the Q&A page addresses this as a proof of orthogonality). We can then understand that "as u changes" the states of both sets also change. This is what allows each set to evolve and move in its own direction, even if they are not orthogonal to each other.

That is, if u does not exist, it would not be possible for two timelines (or 4D sets) to move in directions not orthogonal to each other.

How can this be asserted? Let's see:

Without the u-coordinate, there is no time dimension connecting both 4D sets, this means that there is no common frame of reference that would allow both sets to "flow" in any other apparent direction.
-
Without the u-coordinate or its orthogonal properties, it implies that the sets are in a space where their trajectories can intersect, interact; (which we know does not happen in the slime) without u, such trajectories could not be defined since there would be no "time" that allows both sets to move in their respective directions.

But, if they are orthogonal, how are the 4D sets "affected" by changes of values in u?

This is possible because of the function of u as a parameter describing the evolution and change of each set over time:

U is orthogonal in the sense that there is no direct or cross influence between changes in u and changes in the other coordinates, this means that a change in u does not directly affect X, Y, Z, T and vice versa. However, although changes in u do not directly affect the other coordinates, they do determine the state of the set at a given time.

Then we can understand that as u changes, the states of the 4-dimensional sets can be described as functions of u. Or in other words:

Even if u is orthogonal, its change causes the state of the 4-dimensional space to "update".

Conclusions:
The (u) coordinate and its orthogonal properties are fundamental to allow timelines to flow in different directions not orthogonal to each other. Without this orthogonality, the 4-dimensional sets would constantly interfere with each other, which is not the case in slime. This ensures that each set maintains its own trajectory without crossing or blurring with the other.

The coordinate (u)represents the changes in the states of the 4-dimensional sets, functioning as their temporal "flow". As (u)varies, the states of both sets update and evolve, allowing each to move in its own direction over time.

Being a timeline where each point is a "moment" of the 4-dimensional set is represented by a real number, we can understand that it is an uncountable set.

Then we understand that the time dimension in which "flow through different directions" the timelines, is orthogonal and an uncountable set, thus fulfilling the necessary requirements for L1-C.

I hope that with this, it is clearer to everyone what the OP is referring to. Please I want to remind everyone that this is based entirely on what the OP posits, and the proofs for all of this are already in the thread, this is just "another way" of understanding the 5 dimensions that the OP posits. But I may still be wrong in my interpretation of the thread, so I would be grateful to Astral if he corrects me if that is the case.



I would also like to remind that much of what he posed here are simplifications or analogies to make it simpler to understand, and I fully understand the difference between the dimensions of time and space, and have posed all of it in this.



Regarding the 6 dimension, that one seems more accepted. So I don't think I need to explain it, the OP did that already very well.
You are forgetting that this is not how things work in TenSura, so let's go deeper into the idea of "different non-orthogonal directions" of time by simplifying the matter into a geometrical model:

Consider a tetra-dimensional space where:

  • X-axis represents the spatial dimensions.
  • The Y-axis represents the ordinary time dimension, with the future upwards.

Now imagine:

  • A straight line L1 extending along the Y-axis, representing the flow of ordinary time.
  • A second straight line L2 moving parallel to L1, but on a different plane inclined at an angle of 0 with respect to Y.

L2 will never intersect L1, but moves "next to" it in an alternate time direction, as mentioned in the verse Each point on L2 represents a different "now" than L1, although both move in the "same general direction into the future".

From a physical point of view, this representation in geometric space suggests:

  • Multiple "arrows of time" advancing in slightly different directions in space-time.
  • Each arrow represents a slightly different notion of causality and time evolution.
  • Observers in L1 and L2 would experience the "sense" of time in subtly but perceptibly different ways.

If we consider this idea of timelines moving in non-parallel temporal directions, then the idea of introducing an additional coordinate in order to adequately represent these different notions of time becomes necessary. Then we have to simplify (again) the model I already established in my first post, along with the new one we have:

  • The X-axis represents the spatial dimensions.
  • The Y-axis represents the ordinary time dimension.
  • A line L2 moves in a direction not parallel, neither "superimposed" nor orthogonal to L1 (Y-axis) on a plane inclined at an angle of 0.

Now we must add:

- A fourth axis U perpendicular to the XY and XL2 planes.

Each point in space now has coordinates (x, y, z, u), where:

  • (x, y, z) represents the spatial position.
  • y represents the ordinary time.
  • u represents the "alternative time direction" along L2.

And everything else I already established above.
Please review this. @Georredannea15
 
Representing the time axes in geometric spaces to be able to visualize them is fine, it is a mathematical resource, it is not that I am treating them as "spatial" axes. It is simply a conceptual simplification, it is to make it possible to understand.

Even simplifying space-time to a plane is something very common, you can see it in the explanations of relativistic gravity in high school, where you can see how an object with mass, like a ball, deforms a cloth where it was placed, simulating the effect of gravity in space-time.

Now let's explain it in TenSura.

There is a timeline (X) let's say it is the original one we know: Rimuru becomes true dragon, doesn't die and etc etc.

There is another (Y) rimuru dies and is resurrected later, etc etc.

Both are time axes that follow different "directions" but in the sense of their set of events, also not the "where they are going" as such, as both are still heading into the future. But they both "extend" into different senses of the future, but into the future after all, this is what "different directions" means in this context.

If we put them both in a Euclidean space (X), which is the set of (x, y, z, t) i.e. a tetradimensional space (spacetime), and (Y), which is the same, although they look in the "same direction" (the future), Y is "tilted" at an "angle" with respect to (X). (Note that this "spatial" sounding way of explaining things is just a way of simplifying this matter, because explaining this is very difficult).

Then since both look in "different directions" not orthogonal to the future, but not parallel as such, and "flow" in that direction, the idea of an extra dimension (u) reflecting that change becomes necessary, because if not, it is impossible for them to "flow" in that non-orthogonal "different direction".

If you want, you can imagine it with an infinite winding road, it seems to "zigzag" and "move in another direction" but it goes "straight" i.e. "the direction is the same" as such, the future, but such a road must "extend" into "something else" to exist, and cannot "exist" as a straight line. (Please remember this is just one way to imagine it, and again did not imply that time works the same as space).

The rest I already explained, seriously I can't do this forever, tell me you understood it. Put all my explanations together, write them down if you want in a notebook, so you can see what I mean.
And this
 
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