TenSura LN Major Misleading Revision - Part 1

[Astral_Trinity439]

still doesn't prove that the void being invoked by a darkness spell makes the darkness spell the void itself.

how many times do I have to say, its not the spell that is void, but the contents produced by it. You're confusing not only me but also yourself by repeating the same argument too.

Just like in other magic, here it is also said that the void comes from hell, it doesn't really change anything.

This is for where you said "Darkness is not void", but the scan you're quoting literally says "A bottomless darkness" and void in the same context.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

No limit fallacy brother. Only duality so far mentioned was light and darkness. You are just pushing it for everything in the verse without any statements.

What do we have here, someone continuously ignoring this.

That's your own interpretation, unless you can give me a specific example of that happening, such as a if B and Not B are sub-dualities and B is derived from A, then how is Not B not derived from Not A.
And even then, such an example would just be a specific example, and the same can be said for tensura being the opposite of that argument in specific.

"Angels and Demons" are also derived form A[Light] and Not A[darkness], they exist in response to each other, and are associated with Light and Darkness respectively[Demons with darkness and angels with light]. Yet a demon like Guy Crimson is also the embodiment of darkness. Said darkness is void
It's not that hard to conclude that GS of darkness is nonexistence and GS of light is the opposite; existence.

 

[Dereck03]

Also, I forgot, but another void, in fact, exists in tensura, one that God clearly precedes.
First, skills are part of the laws of the world

The link here is dead.

, said laws were created by Veldanava [thus, we can conclude that veldanava{and thus God as well} existed before them]. That naturally includes Rimuru's skill from Gluttony, "Stomach".
Rimuru's stomach is Metaphysical, but above all, it's a Void. The same holds for some skills like Unlimited Imprisonmen

It doesn't prove anything here those scans, since rimuru's only says it's a place of darkness, you literally use that to say it's a void when in reality void and a place of darkness are not the same thing.

A void is the lack of anything while a place of darkness is a place with lack of light therefore it is darkness.

Although I must say that there are cases where they can be treated as equal if there is elaboration of the same, here it seems that on 2 occasions that place is mentioned as a void, but that conflicts with the explanation that says that it is an abyss of darkness and that it is only a place of darkness.

This actually has too much contradiction with each other, but I will disregard this because in reality this supposed void is not relevant to NEP's argument.

What about this?
Something like the Underworld/World of Darkness[Nonexistence] is a Spiritual World; If a physical world completely lacks magicules, spiritual worlds are the exact opposite of that, that is, they would be filled with magicules. That is, even "Void" or "Nonexistence" here is made up of magicules [not saying magicules are NEP, they're more like a universal essence that makes up almost everything].
However, Subspace lacks even magicules.

You literally say that the underworld/world of darkness is nonexistent, and I tell you scan? You literally say the name of the world and add nonexistence in parentheses as if to say that this is the world and also, you literally show me scans of another world that is not the one you claim. You tell me that the void or nonexistence here is full of megicules but in reality nothing of what you show mentions a void, only the subspace

So that should give enough supporting evidence that subspace lacks not only existence but also conventional nonexistence

From the questions I asked above it is clearer than not, only that the scans presented say one thing and the context used as a description says something else. It is literally misleading.

And I've also seen that on the first page of this thread you and other supporters agree with a certain removal of Type 1 and Type 3, I hadn't gone into that argument so far but I'm fine with it after reading it again.

That's all I have to say till this moment, same conclusion of the all the previous thread.

@Elizhaa since you accepted NEP 2 previously, you may want to take a look at this.

 

[Godsatoshi23]

Vol 19 chapter 4 and that is the full context

I'm not seeing official TL having all-encompassing completeness statement. Is your scan not based on the official translation? https://gyazo.com/d20748484b9429302c90c46b4746c363

Spoiler: Spoiler

In truth, he understood. He knew that his creator had abandoned him. He never wanted to admit it, so instead he soldiered on this far. But that was all over. He was warm, all his needs fulfilled—a nostalgic feeling of comfort. Yes , Michael thought as he faded away, this is it. Maybe this was all a misunderstanding on his part. Here, he had everything—and he felt himself becoming part of it. Michael was no longer alone. It was inevitable that this would happen—all planned from the start. Ah… My wish has come true. And my only regret, Feldway, is that I have to leave you behind… With that final thought, Michael’s consciousness cleanly vanished away.

 

[GarrixianXD]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa @LordGriffin1000 @Planck69 @Firestorm808 @Everything12

Btw, I agree with this.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

The link here is dead.

It doesn't prove anything here those scans, since rimuru's only says it's a place of darkness, you literally use that to say it's a void when in reality void and a place of darkness are not the same thing.

A void is the lack of anything while a place of darkness is a place with lack of light therefore it is darkness.

Although I must say that there are cases where they can be treated as equal if there is elaboration of the same, here it seems that on 2 occasions that place is mentioned as a void, but that conflicts with the explanation that says that it is an abyss of darkness and that it is only a place of darkness.

This actually has too much contradiction with each other, but I will disregard this because in reality this supposed void is not relevant to NEP's argument.

You literally say that the underworld/world of darkness is nonexistent, and I tell you scan? You literally say the name of the world and add nonexistence in parentheses as if to say that this is the world and also, you literally show me scans of another world that is not the one you claim. You tell me that the void or nonexistence here is full of megicules but in reality nothing of what you show mentions a void, only the subspace

I can’t really understand what you are trying to say so hopefully I get this right. Hell is a spiritual world. Spiritual worlds are filled with magicules. So hell (void of nonexistence) would be based on magicules. Yet subspace lacks even them. So not only does subspace exist before and after all concepts,hold said concepts,it also differs in nature from everything else. So it isn’t deeper nonexistence. It is entirely different from the concept of nonexistence

From the questions I asked above it is clearer than not, only that the scans presented say one thing and the context used as a description says something else. It is literally misleading.

Think this is based on you not having enough information/context to understand .

And I've also seen that on the first page of this thread you and other supporters agree with a certain removal of Type 1 and Type 3, I hadn't gone into that argument so far but I'm fine with it after reading it again.

The reasoning is wrong cause that isn’t how it works

That's all I have to say till this moment, same conclusion of the all the previous thread.

@Elizhaa since you accepted NEP 2 previously, you may want to take a look at this.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

I'm not seeing official TL having all-encompassing completeness statement. Is your scan not based on the official translation? https://gyazo.com/d20748484b9429302c90c46b4746c363

It is from slime reader.

https://tensurafan.github.io/read/v19

Also the official translation doesn’t really differ much

 

[Dereck03]

I can’t really understand what you are trying to say so hopefully I get this right. Hell is a spiritual world. Spiritual worlds are filled with magicules. So hell (void of nonexistence) would be based on magicules. Yet subspace lacks even them. So not only does subspace exist before and after all concepts,hold said concepts,it also differs in nature from everything else. So it isn’t deeper nonexistence. It is entirely different from the concept of nonexistence

Already addressed these arguments and you aren't bringing the scans I asked about certain stuffs.

Think this is based on you not having enough information/context to understand .

Oh yeah, that's why I asked for scans, literally all the previous things I questioned were misleading and the reason why this thread was created was a misleading use of the scans and context.

The reasoning is wrong cause that isn’t how it works

Then why it was proposed, accepted and even used in VS matches if you guys knew it was a wrong reasoning and now that it was questioned you guys are agreeing with the removal?

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Already addressed these arguments and you aren't bringing the scans I asked about certain stuffs.

I couldn’t understand you. (Worded kinda badly)

Oh yeah, that's why I asked for scans, literally all the previous things I questioned were misleading and the reason why this thread was created was a misleading use of the scans and context.

What scans do you want?

Then why it was proposed, accepted and even used in VS matches if you guys knew it was a wrong reasoning and now that it was questioned you guys are agreeing with the removal?

It wasn’t known to be wrong. Just found out like 2 months ago after checking raws.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Already addressed these arguments and you aren't bringing the scans I asked about certain stuffs.

Oh yeah, that's why I asked for scans, literally all the previous things I questioned were misleading and the reason why this thread was created was a misleading use of the scans and context.

Then why it was proposed, accepted and even used in VS matches if you guys knew it was a wrong reasoning and now that it was questioned you guys are agreeing with the removal?

Actually Subspace needs to be evaluated. This just contradicts with it being non existent in literal. There is a space-time storm and laws in it?

Gyazo

gyazo.com

 

[Planck69]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa @LordGriffin1000 @Planck69 @Firestorm808 @Everything12

Btw, I agree with this.

Reading through this and what issues Dereck03 brings up, I agree with the OP as well.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Actually Subspace needs to be evaluated. This just contradicts with it being non existent in literal. There is a space-time storm and laws in it?

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Subspace is literally the name given to the gap between worlds. Having space-time storms doesn't change this, and we have no information about said laws other than things like those caught in space-time storms being BFR.

Subspace was created as a result of the True Dragon Veldanava's creation of countless worlds on top of the nothingness in which Veldanava was omnipotent.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Reading through this and what issues Dereck03 brings up, I agree with the OP as well.

Actually, Subspace needs re-evaluation. Does it even qualify as non-existent when it is stated to have different laws, like the Space-Time Storm? If it doesn't qualify, then God wouldn’t qualify for NEP Type 1 either.

Actually Subspace needs to be evaluated. This just contradicts with it being non existent in literal. There is a space-time storm and laws in it?

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Code just calling it void or it has nothing up or down doesn't mean it's literally non existent. Bleach also similar concept work Garganta which encompasses universes and its also called Void space iirc. So I would rather like some staff to take a look in to it. Further.

Subspace is literally the name given to the gap between worlds. Having space-time storms doesn't change this, and we have no information about said laws other than things like those caught in space-time storms being BFR.

Subspace was created as a result of the True Dragon Veldanava's creation of countless worlds on top of the nothingness in which Veldanava was omnipotent.

 

[CodeCCLL]

doesn't mean it's literally non existent

By definition, Subspace and Subspace's nothingness are not the same thing.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Actually forget it I'll address the subspace argument in a different thread. I guess this is already too big for others to read through.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Actually forget it I'll address the subspace argument in a different thread

There's no such thing as a subspace argument, you literally don't understand what they mean.

The fact that there is one box in nothingness does not change the fact that everything other than that box will still be nothingness.

 

[Fixxed]

Veldanava encompasses the existent and the non-existent and lacks distinction so literally you accept that it is NEP 2.

You twist my word, i literally say velda must be a nonexistence being to begin with, and his nonexistence must be lack of existence and nonexistence

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

You literally say that the underworld/world of darkness is nonexistent, and I tell you scan? You literally say the name of the world and add nonexistence in parentheses as if to say that this is the world and also, you literally show me scans of another world that is not the one you claim. You tell me that the void or nonexistence here is full of megicules but in reality nothing of what you show mentions a void, only the subspace

I thought you read the entire thread before giving your evaluation, so I assumed you had already seen the scans I sent
Anyways, here:

A bottomless darkness was about to envelop Vega, just like the one directed at Zelanus.
It's the power of Void that comes from the Abyss.
"Abyss" refers to Hell.
Proves that Darkness : Void/Nonexistence

A Darkness spell does whatever its doing by manipulating its respective law/great spirit. A fire spell summons/creates a fire, and said fire is governed by its respective law of nature[the gs of fire in this case]. Something like water is not governed by GS of fire, and so, with the same logic, no other GS governs darkness/void other then the GS of darkness. [Refer to the magic and skills page for this], as well as these:

Spirits are natural phenomenon themselves in their most purest form, including the phenomenon of "fire burning oxygen and generating Carbon Dioxide -> Spirits separate from the Great Spirit/Attribute of their respective element -> Spirits are the manifestation of these attributes/laws/great spirits -> Guy[a demon, essentially a spirit of "Darkness"] that rules over the world of darkness and is the embodiment of darkness yet is still derived from the great spirit of darkness.

So Demons, which are basically "separated from the greater whole of great spirits" are embodiments of "Darkness"[Great Spirit of Darkness] insofar as how normal Spirits are the embodiment of their respective laws/great spirits.
Now what is "Darkness"? As I already quoted above, the bottomless darkness is the void from hell. But for more scans:

• Great Spirit of Light: Light defines Good[30], Positivity[31], Holy, Yang, Virtue[29] (Justice, Wisdom, Vows, Hope, Purity, Relief, Endurance[29]), and much more. It is the source of Angels[32].
• Great Spirit of Darkness: Darkness defines Evil[33], Negativity[31] (Non-existence[34]; Darkness[32]; Nihility[31]), Annihilation[31], Corruption, Demonic, Sin, Yin[29] (Wrath, Gluttony, Sloth, Lust, Greed, Envy[29]), and much more. It is the source of Demons[32].
  • In addition to the above characteristics, they're also the source of many other dual connections (the Yin-Yang type) throughout the world that exist purely in response to each other, fated to intertwine[29]. They also have their own "Attribute Magic" that is also opposite to one another[31]

Darkness is Nihility, Void, Negative Energy, something that annihilates/erases existence [see the highlighted scans in the GS of darkness section for proof].

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I'm not seeing official TL having all-encompassing completeness statement. Is your scan not based on the official translation? https://gyazo.com/d20748484b9429302c90c46b4746c363

Spoiler: Spoiler

undefined

The OTL is bad with their translation sometimes, which is a common known fact in the slime community. So we either use Slimereader scans, or use the OTL scans that have been confirmed to be correct via their japanese raws.

That's one of the reasons why I even explained the kanji for the "where all was one and one was all" scan because it was from the raws, just to prove that that scan from the raws wasn't a mistranslation.

 

[Dog3352]

According to some people, the darkness described in the scan IS pure darkness, therefore it is emptiness.

But, it is VERY obvious that what is being used here is nothing more than a sub-skill of Darkness Magic, also known as Nilithy, a type of magic that SUMMONS (uses) the void that IS IN HELL in its "attacks".

Nilihity magic is described as a type of magic that SUMMONS the void of hell;
The ability used in the scan says that the void is being summoned from the abyss (the abyss is hell).

Do I need to say anything more?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

There's no such thing as a subspace argument, you literally don't understand what they mean.

The fact that there is one box in nothingness does not change the fact that everything other than that box will still be nothingness.

We'll see that when I make that thread. No hard feelings. If my arguments are wrong then my thread will be rejected nothing else.

Though you gotta wait for next week

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

According to some people, the darkness described in the scan IS pure darkness, therefore it is emptiness.

But, it is VERY obvious that what is being used here is nothing more than a sub-skill of Darkness Magic, also known as Nilithy, a type of magic that SUMMONS (uses) the void that IS IN HELL in its "attacks".

How many times are you going to repeat yourself even after getting debunked. If you could read it slowly.

A bottomless darkness was about to envelop Vega, just like the one directed at Zelanus

It's the power of the Void

The bottomless darkness and the power of the void are one and the same.

It coming from HELL which is literally a world of darkness born from the great spirit of darkness doesn’t change ANYTHING.

 

[Dog3352]

How many times are you going to repeat yourself even after getting debunked. If you could read it slowly.

A bottomless darkness was about to envelop Vega, just like the one directed at Zelanus

It's the power of the Void

The bottomless darkness and the power of the void are one and the same.

It coming from HELL which is literally a world of darkness born from the great spirit of darkness doesn’t change ANYTHING.

Nilihity is described as a summoning spell that summons the void of hell;
The ability used in the scan states that the darkness seen is A VOID THAT CAME FROM HELL.

Yes, I'm sure I'm very stupid for persisting in the obvious, the skill used in the scan is a Nilihity Magic, which is very obvious by describing that the void of the skill in the scan is said to come from hell, therefore, it is an invocation, both are not the same thing, Nilihity just invokes the void, it is not the void itself.
If your proof that I'm wrong is a spell that is clearly Nilihity Magic (a spell that SUMMONS the void of hell, not the void itself), then just stop.

 

[Lycoris4812]

So no nep for Veldanava [the avatar]. But are we considering nep1 for God? Since he encompasses the Void?

 

[Dog3352]

@EldemadeDityjon

Could you please add this to the OP before someone repeats the same thing?

According to some people, the darkness described in the scan IS pure darkness magic, hence "darkness = void".

But, it is VERY obvious that what is being used here is nothing more than a sub-skill of Darkness Magic, also known as Nilithy, a type of magic that SUMMONS (uses) the void that IS IN HELL in its "attacks".

Nilihity magic is described as a type of magic that SUMMONS the void of hell;
The ability used in the scan says that the void is being summoned from the abyss (the abyss is hell).

Therefore, the magic used as evidence for "darkness = void" is just a magic that invokes the void that is in hell, invoking the void of a place with a spell obviously does not prove that this magic is non-existent (void).

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

So no nep for Veldanava [the avatar]. But are we considering nep1 for God? Since he encompasses the Void?

For now yes. God key will keep NEP type 1

I'm gonna make a seperate thread for that Subspace Void arguments next week if possible.

 

[Lycoris4812]

For now yes. God key will keep NEP type 1

I'm gonna make a seperate thread for that Subspace Void arguments next week if possible.

So does being nondual to existence and nonexistence not give nep2? Sorry about my lack of knowledge but Astral is feeling unwell, so I'm going to try to argue for him.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Nilihity is described as a summoning spell that summons the void of hell;
The ability used in the scan states that the darkness seen is A VOID THAT CAME FROM HELL.

Yes, I'm sure I'm very stupid for persisting in the obvious, the skill used in the scan is a Nilihity Magic, which is very obvious by describing that the void of the skill in the scan is said to come from hell, therefore, it is an invocation, Both are not the same thing, Nilihity just invokes the void, it is not the void itself.

Oml talk about someone who can’t read. Nhillity is the void.it is the void THAT COMES FROM HELL. Nhillity itself is STILL the void. With darkness = nhillity . Idk why you keep repeating it coming from hell like hell isn’t part of darkness

All magic literally works by using the great spirits power.

Your whole argument is based on you not having basic knowledge on how magic works

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

So does being nondual to existence and nonexistence not give nep2? Sorry about my lack of knowledge but Astral is feeling unwell, so I'm going to try to argue for him.

There is no non duality for existence and non Existence in the verse. Only light and darkness attributes are stated to have dualities.

Which is already addressed multiple times in this thread. Also no non duality doesn't automatically grants NEP type 2. Character needs to be pure non existent in conventional means. Which Velda God key doesn't have proof for.

 

[Dog3352]

Oml talk about someone who can’t read. Nhillity is the void.it is the void THAT COMES FROM HELL. Nhillity itself is STILL the void. With darkness = nhillity . Idk why you keep repeating it coming from hell like hell isn’t part of darkness

Yes, keep going against what is in the Tensura wiki itself:

Nihility magic ｢虚無系魔法, kyomu-kei mahō｣, also known as nihilistic magic ｢虚無系魔法ニヒリスティック, nihirisutikku｣, is an advanced form of dark magic that makes use of Summoning magic to call forth the "void" from the abyss of hell. The characteristic of this magic is the annihilation of existence due to minus energy ｢負の存在値マイナスエネルギー, mainasu enerugī, lit. "negative existence value"｣. This can only countered by saturating the minus energy with an equal or greater amount of plus energy ｢正のエネルギー, sei no enurgī｣, causing the two to cancel each other out.[4]

or even in the description in the scan: https://gyazo.com/d125dcb5f9d21a6dd15475e896caf02a

The reason why the old man went out of his way was because it was dangerous. Why is that? The answer was obvious. Because it had worked. It had to do with the nature of magic.

Magic rewrote laws by influencing magicules, and since spiritrons were a part of magicules, it was inevitable that 'Magic Nullification' would be an anti-magic guard. However, among the dark magics, nihility magic in particular had the characteristic of invoking the void of hell and making any energy disappear on contact. That is why 'Magic Nullification' could not nullify it. This was already a certainty. Ultima did not hesitate to limit her attacks to nihility magic.

Everyone says it invokes the void of hell (even the skill scan itself used as evidence says that the void comes from hell), not that it is the void, stop repeating the same thing without proof, this is just getting ugly now

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

There is no non duality for existence and non Existence in the verse. Only light and darkness attributes are stated to have dualities.

Why is bro still ignoring my earlier reply to him

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Why is bro still ignoring my earlier reply to him

You can send thousands scans & explanation and still prove nothing. So I'm not gonna bother replying to everything when it's completely wrong. You can get staff input if you think you are right. It's not like me replying to you would change anything.

I already made my arguments it's upto staffs to see who has better logical reasoning. I already got 2 admins vote I don't see much credit replying to your paragraphs which has nothing to do with dualities based on existence and non Existence in any context.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Yes, keep going against what is in the Tensura wiki itself:

Oml. Yes it summons NHILLITY FROM HELL. Yet darkness IS NHILLITY. Even quoting what you used

The characteristic of this magic is the annihilation of existence due to minus energy. The characteristic of the ability is darkness/void that comes from hell

or even in the description in the scan: https://gyazo.com/d125dcb5f9d21a6dd15475e896caf02a

 

[Dog3352]

Oml. Yes it summons NHILLITY FROM HELL. Yet darkness IS NHILLITY. Even quoting what you used

The characteristic of this magic is the annihilation of existence due to minus energy. The characteristic of the ability is darkness/void that comes from hell

The "characteristic" of Nilihity is its ability to invoke the void of hell, not to be the void itself, you don't even have an evidence of what you are saying.

I will not respond to any messages that have to do with Nilihity from now on, as I am already fully aware of what it is.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

You can send thousands scans & explanation and still prove nothing. So I'm not gonna bother replying to everything when it's completely wrong. You can get staff input if you think you are right. It's not like me replying to you would change anything.

I already made my arguments it's upto staffs to see who has better logical reasoning. I already got 2 admins vote I don't see much credit replying to your paragraphs which has nothing to do with dualities based on existence and non Existence in any context.

Staff just don’t read when there are alot of pages so they don’t even see most arguments. And then these are also mods that aren’t knowledgeable on the series and how things work on top of not reading everything. Leading them to ask the same questions over and over making more pages that other mods are then also going to ignore.

 

[Lycoris4812]

There is no non duality for existence and non Existence in the verse. Only light and darkness attributes are stated to have dualities.

Which is already addressed multiple times in this thread. Also no non duality doesn't automatically grants NEP type 2. Character needs to be pure non existent in conventional means. Which Velda God key doesn't have proof for.

But the Great Spirit of Darkness is the concept of nonexistence.

Great Spirits ｢大聖霊だいせいれい Daiseirei, lit. Great Holy Spirits｣ are the Attributes ｢属性ぞくせい Zokusei, lit. Attributes, Quality, Property, Element, Genus｣, the fundamental truths that govern the underlying principles of all existence[23] with respect to philosophy[24] and science[24]. Natural phenomena itself is tied to spirits[24], with spirits being its purest, most original form[24], they are conceptual existences[25]. Yet Great Spirits/Attributes are a rank higher then even them, serving as the very thing which spirits are derived from[26].

It defines Negative Energy the annihilation of existence and the emptiness from hell. Which is the core realm of darkness. And since light and darkness contradict each other, light would be the opposite of nonexistence [existence]. And Veldanava as God would encompass all of this.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

The "characteristic" of Nilohity is its ability to invoke the void of hell, not to be the void itself, you don't even have an evidence of what you are saying.

Oml your reading comprehension is … Nhillity itself is the void that is summoned. Which is why the characteristic is void. This was already explained to you tens of times

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

2 admins vote

you already got 3

Spoiler: noo

i will never have such rizz of getting staff

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

But the Great Spirit of Darkness is the concept of nonexistence.

It defines Negative Energy the annihilation of existence and the emptiness from hell. Which is the core realm of darkness. And since light and darkness contradict each other, light would be the opposite of nonexistence [existence]. And Veldanava as God would encompass all of this.

He doesn’t care and ignores all that as well as how magic works in the first place. And he thinks he debunked something cause mods don’t read all the arguments and agree without knowing how it actually works

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Staff just don’t read when there are alot of pages so they don’t even see most arguments. And then these are also mods that aren’t knowledgeable on the series and how things work on top of not reading everything. Leading them to ask the same questions over and over making more pages that other mods are then also going to ignore.

First of all both said they read the thread.
Second of all every verse gets upgrade and downgrade from staffs which are not knowledgeable on the verse most of the time. It's up to supporters to provide scans and convince staff with proof. So it's not my problem if staff doesn't agree with your arguments.

Also I don't remember staff asking any questions for me who actually provided scans in my OP. Dereck did interacted with you people and still rejected the thread so it just proves your arguments were less logical than mine that's all. And you people failed to provide necessary proofs for what you claimed.