TenSura LN Major Misleading Revision - Part 1

[Lycoris4812]

He doesn’t care and ignores all that as well as how magic works in the first place. And he thinks he debunked something cause mods don’t read the arguments and agree without knowing how it actually works

I don't know why magic is being involved in the first place. It has nothing to do with anything.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

First of all both said they read the thread.
Second of all every verse gets upgrade and downgrade from staffs which are not knowledgeable on the verse most of the time. It's up to supporters to provide scans and convince staff with proof. So it's not my problem if staff doesn't agree with your arguments.

Literally admitted that they didn’t read it all and that is why he asked questions that was already answered. Yeah but people not knowledgeable on the verse actually read the argument which isn’t the case here. And his disagreement isn’t even based on your argument.it is based on “not having enough proof” that subspace is superior to nonexistence so just layered nep instead of 2

Also I don't remember staff asking any questions. Dereck did interacted with you people and still rejected the thread so it just proves your arguments were less logical than mine that's all. And you people failed to provide necessary proofs for what you claimed.

 

[Dog3352]

defines Negative Energy the annihilation of existence and the emptiness from hell. Which is the core realm of darkness. And since light and darkness contradict each other, light would be the opposite of nonexistence [existence]. And Veldanava as God would encompass all of this.

Annihilation of existence it's just being described as a magic that destroys existence, there's nothing void or non-existence about it.

Nihilistic Banish is a Nihility Magic, as described in the scan itself, and also in the Tensura wiki, this magic uses the void that is in hell (invokes the void of hell), not that the magic is the void itself

His third scan just says that the Great Dark Spirit were the King of the Dark Realm, not that he defines him or anything like that.

Warning: I will no longer respond @PHANtomFELdway due to the constant repetition of the same thing without any evidence.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Literally admitted that they didn’t read it all and that is why he asked questions that was already answered. Yeah but people not knowledgeable on the verse actually read the argument which isn’t the case here. And his disagreement isn’t even based on your argument.it is based on “not having enough proof” that subspace is superior to nonexistence so just layered nep instead of 2

Brother, he has the same argument as mine—read my updated OP. The wording is different, but I stated that subspace is not claimed to be beyond conventional nothingness, which is needed to prove NEP type 2. His argument "lacks proof for superiority over non-existence."

You're just misunderstanding because you didn't realize that both of us meant the same thing, though we worded it differently. But the fact that he listened to your arguments and still didn’t change his mind proves that the evidence you provided wasn’t enough.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa @LordGriffin1000 @Planck69 @Firestorm808 @Everything12

Btw, I agree with this.

you already got 3

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Gar got no rights for now.
But 2 admin votes is already enough to downgrade it. Will wait for 48 hours to complete and apply the changes

 

[Lycoris4812]

Annihilation of existence it's just being described as a magic that destroys existence, there's nothing void or non-existence about it.

It's not the magic but Negative Energy. Since Negative Energy is the annihilation of existence aka nonexistence.

Nihilistic Banish is a Nihility Magic, as described in the scan itself, and also in the Tensura wiki, this magic only invokes the void in hell, it is not the void of hell itself.emptiness from hell.

Idk why you're using the wiki when they can be wrong. Nihility Magic is a higher form of Dark Magic that manipulates the Great Spirit of Darkness. Negative energy is described as darkness. And Nilihistic Banish is said to manipulate the void.

His third scan just says that the Great Dark Spirits were the King of the Dark Kingdom, not that he defines him or anything like that.

Negative Energy comes from Hell or the Underworld. Which is a realm of darkness. And Darkness = Negative Energy.

 

[Dog3352]

It's not the magic but Negative Energy. Since Negative Energy is the annihilation of existence aka nonexistence.

Where exactly was it accepted that negative energy is accepted as NEP2?
Furthermore, even then, evidence would be needed that "Darkness = Negative Energy".

Idk why you're using the wiki when they can be wrong. Nihility Magic is a higher form of Dark Magic that manipulates the Great Spirit of Darkness. Negative energy is described as darkness. And Nilihistic Banish is said to manipulate the void.

It's 100,000 times easier to trust someone who describes skills according to the story just to give information than to make the verse stronger, in addition to the scans you sent saying that Nihility is a magic that invokes the void of hell, and there is also a scan literally saying that the void of magic is coming from hell, which further reinforces what is written in the Tensura Wikis.
Now focusing on your evidence, Nihility Magics use the void of hell as far as we know (which is said in the scan and in the Tensura Wiki), Nihilistic Banish being a Nihility Magic would do the same thing, it would be necessary to prove that the void in Nihilistic Banish is not being summoned from hell.
The fangs having "darkness" in the name does not prove that the void is the Darkness hiself, Nihility Magic (magic that INVOKES the void, and NOT that IS the void itself) itself is already a Darkness Magic, having "darkness" in the name only reinforces that it is a darkness magic.

Negative Energy comes from Hell or the Underworld. Which is a realm of darkness. And Darkness = Negative Energy.

This scan literally talks about magic using the void of hell (summoning), this is literally evidence that goes against your argument.
Nothing says that "Darkness = Negative Energy".

Is necessary one evidence that "Darkness = Negative", which I believe is not the case, since Negative Energy is said in the Tensura Wiki to be something from Nihility Magic, which is also the the only one that uses void of the hell, so I think it would be "Negative Energy = Void" and not "Negative Energy = Darkness".

 

[Lycoris4812]

Where exactly was it accepted that negative energy is accepted as NEP2?

It hasn't. This is for the argument of the duality of light and darkness being nonexistence and existence. And God being nondual to it.

It's 100,000 times easier to trust someone who describes skills according to the story just to give information than to make the verse stronger.

The wiki can be wrong and I'd rather you give scans from the novel itself instead of relying on outside sources. It never says Negative Energy was summoned but manipulated.

Now focusing on your evidence, Nihility Magics use the void of hell as far as we know (which is said in the scan and in the Tensura Wiki), Nihilistic Banish being a Nihility Magic would do the same thing, it would be necessary to prove that the void invoked by Nihilistic Banish is not being summoned from hell.

Can you prove it's being summoned with scans from the novel?

Being described as "darkness" does not prove that darkness itself is emptiness, emptiness itself is also dark.

The Great Spirit would define darkness [negative energy], similar to how the Great Spirit of Fire defines fire.

This scan literally talks about magic catching the void of hell (summoning), this is literally evidence that goes against your argument.
Nothing says that "Darkness = Negative Energy".

What are you reading? Nothing says anything about magic or summoning. Darkness = Negative Energy because Negative Energy is described as darkness. And comes from void/abyss.

 

[Dog3352]

It hasn't. This is for the argument of the duality of light and darkness being nonexistence and existence. And God being nondual to it.

But it needs to.

The wiki can be wrong and I'd rather you give scans from the novel itself instead of relying on outside sources. It never says Negative Energy was summoned but manipulated.

Nihility is a magic that invokes the void of hell, and there is also a scan literally saying that the void of magic is coming from hell, which further reinforces what is written in the Tensura Wikis.
Now focusing on your evidence, Nihility Magics use the void of hell as far as we know (which is said in the scan and in the Tensura Wiki), Nihilistic Banish being a Nihility Magic would do the same thing, it would be necessary to prove that the void in Nihilistic Banish is not being summoned from hell.

It goes without saying that the void is being invoked, taking into account what I said above (still with scans for evidence), you who would need to prove that "Manipulate the void" in this ability means that the abilitiy (darkness) itself is the void, and not that he is invoking and manipulating the void (as that would be normal for Nihility Magic).

Can you prove it's being summoned with scans from the novel?

As I said above, I don't need to prove that they are being invoked, you who need to prove that they are not being invoked, and that the magic is the void itself (which I find difficult, since even the description of "manipulating the void" can also meaning that the magic/darkness is not the void itself, but rather just that the ability is manipulating the void).

The Great Spirit would define darkness [negative energy], similar to how the Great Spirit of Fire defines fire.

And where is the proof that "Negative Energy = Darkness"?

What are you reading? Nothing says anything about magic or summoning. Darkness = Negative Energy because Negative Energy is described as darkness. And comes from void/abyss.

In addition to not even having anything talking about "Negative Energy", it's obvious that you're the one not reading it, since the scan itself says:

A bottomless darkness was about to envelop Vega, just like the one directed at Zelanus

It's the power of the Void that comes from the Abyss.

The scan clearly says that the void comes from the abyss.

 

[Dog3352]

@Lycoris4812

By the way, I just found this about the Nihilistic Banish (vol 20 chapter 3) spell, which proves what I said earlier (Nilistic Banish invokes the void of hell, and is not the void itself).

And also this about the "Fangs of Darkness" (vol 20 chapter 3). Fangs of Darkness is just the Nihilstic Banish spell with the highest AoE (Nihilistic Baniash = magic that invokes the void of hell), which makes it clear that Fangs of Darkness also invokes the void of hell, as it is literally the Nihilistic Banish (only with highest AoE and another name).

Addition/edit:

Other magic this was used as main argument for "Darkness Magic = Void" (which is also said to invoke the void of hell, as seen by the part in bold, thus being just another spell that invokes the void of a place, not a spell that is the void itself): https://gyazo.com/d125dcb5f9d21a6dd15475e896caf02a

A bottomless darkness was about to envelop Vega, just like the one directed at Zelanus

It's the power of the Void that comes from the Abyss.

 

[Lycoris4812]

I just thought of something, idk if it changes anything.

So if we accept that Negative Energy [nonexistence] comes from Hell/Underworld/Abyss/Void.
And the Underworld is a Spiritual World.
Then the Great Spirit of Darkness would be the concept of nothingness.

Because Guy a Demon originates from the Great Spirit of Darkness. And is called the embodiment of darkness.
And since when you travel to a Spiritual World you are rebuilt into its composition. That means that demons would be nonexistent in the underworld and since they are fragments of the Great Spirit of Darkness, then the Great Spirit of Darkness would be nonexistent.

I'm going to sleep soon, so I might not reply in time.

 

[Robo432343]

This has enough staff agreement
it can be applied

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good to me.

 

[Robo432343]

 

[Dog3352]

I just thought of something, idk if it changes anything.

So if we accept that Negative Energy [nonexistence] comes from Hell/Underworld/Abyss/Void.
And the Underworld is a Spiritual World.
Then the Great Spirit of Darkness would be the concept of nothingness.

Because Guy a Demon originates from the Great Spirit of Darkness. And is called the embodiment of darkness.
And since when you travel to a Spiritual World you are rebuilt into its composition. That means that demons would be nonexistent in the underworld and since they are fragments of the Great Spirit of Darkness, then the Great Spirit of Darkness would be nonexistent.

I'm going to sleep soon, so I might not reply in time.

Firstly: I can't exactly analyze this due to a few things (like the fact that I have to sleep).

Second: Good night.

 

[Sebas-S.P-san]

Maybe this won't help at the moment, but I agree with 1 and 3 for the promised land, but....

For Veldanava key to God? Is this a joke, or do they just pull out bits and pieces without having read and understood it? Anyway...anyway I'll get it back in some CTR I do soon.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

For Veldanava key to God? Is this a joke, or do they just pull out bits and pieces without having read and understood it?

It's the other way around. Supported who previously upgraded NEP twisted the context. Stop spreading your hate here. If you got any better arguments drop it and staff would agree if you are right.

Anyway...anyway I'll get it back in some CTR I do soon.

If this NEP Type 2 thread is made by Tensura supporters again for the same reasons, I'm going to be real with you—next time, when I make a downgrade thread, I'll make it a staff thread and create discussion rules. This is already the fifth thread regarding NEP stuff, and I don’t want to deal with back-and-forth anymore.

Also there is a rule in wiki standards you need to wait for 3 months to open this same topic again. So if I see any upgrade within 3 months reporting them in RVT.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

This has enough staff agreement
it can be applied

48 hours rule....

 

[Sebas-S.P-san]

If this NEP Type 2 thread is made by Tensura supporters again for the same reasons, I'm going to be real with you—next time, when I make a downgrade thread, I'll make it a staff thread and create discussion rules. This is already the fifth thread regarding NEP stuff, and I don’t want to deal with back-and-forth anymore.

You misunderstood my words, I tried to say that I will not use practically the same arguments, but I will use others that sound more convincing about it.

By the way, I'm talking, we can also do the same thing, nor that updating a skill or profile with different arguments is a bad thing.

Also there is a rule in wiki standards you need to wait for 3 months to open this same topic again. So if I see any upgrade within 3 months reporting them in RVT.

Just in case I repeat "I WILL PRACTICALLY NOT USE THE SAME ARGUMENTS" so if you try, I will defend myself.

Also, Tensura practically has a new volume this month (most likely) so I'll have more time to gather information.

(By the way, I can't respond with arguments now, and if I did it would just be empty words without scans, besides the staff agrees with this CTR, that's why I won't argue it now, but take it as a challenge that you should take into account).

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

You misunderstood my words, I tried to say that I will not use practically the same arguments, but I will use others that sound more convincing about it.

By the way, I'm talking, we can also do the same thing, nor that updating a skill or profile with different arguments is a bad thing.

Just in case I repeat "I WILL PRACTICALLY NOT USE THE SAME ARGUMENTS" so if you try, I will defend myself.

Well it depends if you have any additional arguments other than Subspace and Hell/Underworld Void because. Subspace and Hell/Underworld arguments are used by everyone here and still got rejected. You need to bring something else.

Also, Tensura practically has a new volume this month (most likely) so I'll have more time to gather information.

(By the way, I can't respond with arguments now, and if I did it would just be empty words without scans, besides the staff agrees with this CTR, that's why I won't argue it now, but take it as a challenge that you should take into account).

Whether it's a challenge or not, if the content in the next upgrade thread is the same for NEP and still gets passed somehow by misleading staff, like the previous Tensura supporters did, I promise the next downgrade thread will be a staff thread, and there will be a discussion rule.

Also here is the rule so you need to bring something new other than Subspace and Hell/underworld arguments for GS spirits if you are planning on making the thread within 3-4 months.

Discussion Rules

VS Battles Wiki is a site where the members attempt to index the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. These efforts lead to much discussion about certain feats, statements and calculations regarding their validity, reliability, etc. However, certain topics keep popping...

vsbattles.fandom.com

When creating content revisions, it is essential to ensure that the topic has not been addressed previously. Rejected content revisions cannot be resubmitted within a short period of time (typically defined as within 3 to 4 months), except in cases where a staff member has a good reason to do so (e.g. important unconsidered information, violation of site standards, or flaws in a calculation). This only applies to threads that have received extensive debate or have been rejected due to a clear conflict with the wiki's rules or standards. If a thread passes or is rejected without significant opposition, then opposition should not be restricted from making a point.

 

[Sebas-S.P-san]

Also here is the rule so you need to bring something new other than Subspace and Hell/underworld arguments for GS spirits if you are planning on making the thread within 3-4 months.

Discussion Rules

VS Battles Wiki is a site where the members attempt to index the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. These efforts lead to much discussion about certain feats, statements and calculations regarding their validity, reliability, etc. However, certain topics keep popping...

vsbattles.fandom.com

You mentioned it before, but thanks for reminding me, I'll tag you when it's done.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Well it depends if you have any additional arguments other than Subspace and Hell/Underworld Void because. Subspace and Hell/Underworld arguments are used by everyone here and still got rejected. You need to bring something else.

Whether it's a challenge or not, if the content in the next upgrade thread is the same for NEP and still gets passed somehow by misleading staff, like the previous Tensura supporters did, I promise the next downgrade thread will be a staff thread, and there will be a discussion rule.

I don’t see why subspace isn’t Nep 2 since regardless of if you don’t use the great spirits. Subspace is still fundamentally different nonexistentence then the void of hell.it isn’t deeper nonexistentence,it is a whole different type

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I don’t see why subspace isn’t Nep 2 since regardless of if you don’t use the great spirits. Subspace is still fundamentally different nonexistentence then the void of hell.it isn’t deeper nonexistentence,it is a whole different type

@Dereck03 already pointed it out why it's not NEP type 2.
Check his replies. Subspace doesn't have proof to be something beyond conventional nothingness.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

@Dereck03 already pointed it out why it's not NEP type 2.
Check his replies. Subspace doesn't have proof to be something beyond conventional nothingness.

I already saw it and he didn’t really respond to the argument .hells nonexistence uses magicules. While subspace lacks even magicules that makes up hells nonexistence

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I already saw it and he didn’t really respond to the argument .hells nonexistence uses magicules. While subspace lacks even magicules that makes up hells nonexistence

If he didn’t respond, then your arguments weren’t important to what he asked. If you or anyone actually provided what was really necessary he would have definitely replied. You know no wants to keep wasting their time when there is no valid arguments are presented.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

You literally say that the underworld/world of darkness is nonexistent, and I tell you scan? You literally say the name of the world and add nonexistence in parentheses as if to say that this is the world and also, you literally show me scans of another world that is not the one you claim. You tell me that the void or nonexistence here is full of megicules but in reality nothing of what you show mentions a void, only the subspace

since I am assuming that you want scans for hell.

1.) a spiritual universe is a place filled with magicules.a place where spiritual beings live .

Gyazo

gyazo.com

2.)hell. The world of darkness/demon world/underworld . Is a spiritual world of void

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com

3.)that is to say that hell. A spiritual world/void nonexistence would be made of magicules. Just like how spiritual lifeforms are.

Gyazo

gyazo.com

4.)subspace is nonexistence that lacks even magicules that make up the nonexistence of hell. So it isn’t just deeper nonexistence. It is entirely different in nature from what nonexistence is, to the point that nonexistence itself doesn’t exist there.

There is absolutely nothing.
This was nothingness, a complete and utter "nonexistence".

Gyazo

gyazo.com

 

[Robo432343]

this is the real translation

There is nothing. Both the sea and the sky. There was no heaven and earth, even upper and lower. "Ah?" Vega finally realized the position he was in. In that place, even the stars do not shine. Since there was no light, there was no color. Nothing existed, a complete “nothingness.”

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

this is the real translation

There is nothing. Both the sea and the sky. There was no heaven and earth, even upper and lower. "Ah?" Vega finally realized the position he was in. In that place, even the stars do not shine. Since there was no light, there was no color. Nothing existed, a complete “nothingness.”

That doesn’t change anything that was said + mine is from raws while yours is from the trash translated vol that gets genders wrong

 

[Robo432343]

That doesn’t change anything that was said + mine is from raws while yours is from the trash translated vol that gets genders wrong

i wasn't even talking to you
and i know it doesn't change from what you said

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

i wasn't even talking to you
and i know it doesn't change from what you said

idiot

Very obviously were. Idk why you bringing different translation that doesn’t even change anything and then saying it is the REAL translation like the other one is wrong.regardless your comment was useless

 

[Robo432343]

Very obviously were. Idk why you bringing different translation that doesn’t even change anything and then saying it is the REAL translation like the other one is wrong.regardless your comment was useless

we have the same translation

 

[Lycoris4812]

Firstly: I can't exactly analyze this due to a few things (like the fact that I have to sleep).

Second: Good night.

Good night. Can you check it when you wake up?

 

[Dog3352]

I just thought of something, idk if it changes anything.

So if we accept that Negative Energy [nonexistence] comes from Hell/Underworld/Abyss/Void.
And the Underworld is a Spiritual World.
Then the Great Spirit of Darkness would be the concept of nothingness.

Because Guy a Demon originates from the Great Spirit of Darkness. And is called the embodiment of darkness.
And since when you travel to a Spiritual World you are rebuilt into its composition. That means that demons would be nonexistent in the underworld and since they are fragments of the Great Spirit of Darkness, then the Great Spirit of Darkness would be nonexistent.

I'm going to sleep soon, so I might not reply in time.

For this to work, you would have to prove a few things (not counting the fact that you would need to prove that "Negative Energy = Nep2"), such as:

First: It would have to be proven that the Great Spirit of Darkness IS Nonexistent/nep2, even if the Great Spirit of Darkness is the king of the underworld and the very concept of darkness, there is no evidence that ruling or being darkness itself gives him "negative energy philosophy" (that he is made of negative energy), which would be necessary for the NEP2, which I find difficult to prove, since, since the Great Spirit of Darkness is the very concept of darkness.

Second: It would have to be proven that, upon entering the underworld, the beings, when rebuilt, become negative energy (non-existence), and not simply something like darkness or elemental beings of darkness.

I think if you prove these two (and prove that "Negative Energy = NEP2"), both demons in general in their original form and especially the Great Spirit of Darkness will be NEP2, but I'm not ABSOLUTELY sure.

 

[Lycoris4812]

For this to work, you would have to prove a few things (not counting the fact that you would need to prove that "Negative Energy = Nep2"), such as:

Does it need to be nep2? I’m trying to give Veldanava nep2 through nonduality.

First: It would have to be proven that the Great Spirit of Darkness IS Nonexistent/nep2, even if the Great Spirit of Darkness is the king of the underworld and the very concept of darkness, there is no evidence that ruling or being darkness itself gives him "negative energy philosophy" (that he is made of negative energy), which would be necessary for the NEP2, which I find difficult to prove, since, since the Great Spirit of Darkness is the very concept of darkness.

Well if Negative Energy is in the underworld and Spiritual Lifeforms become the composition of the spiritual world they go to. He would have nep1. At least in the underworld.

I think if you prove these two (and prove that "Negative Energy = NEP2"), both demons in general in their original form and especially the Great Spirit of Darkness will be NEP2, but I'm not ABSOLUTELY sure.

Ok

 

[Dog3352]

Does it need to be nep2? I’m trying to give Veldanava nep2 through nonduality.

I'm not sure if it would be necessary for Veldavana via duality, as I don't have that much knowledge of Nep.

Well if Negative Energy is in the underworld and Spiritual Lifeforms become the composition of the spiritual world they go to. He would have nep1. At least in the underworld.

I believe they would have at least NEP1.
As far as I know (at least from what I've read), Negative Energy is something that is specifically in Nihility Magic, would have to show evidence that shows that Negative Energy exists in the void of hell, and that the void is everywhere hell (or that at least demons are in the void before being summoned, or that all of hell itself is a void).

 

[Lycoris4812]

I'm not sure if it would be necessary for Veldavana via duality, as I don't have that much knowledge of Nep.

Eldemadedityjon said it works, but maybe I misunderstood them.

I believe they would have at least NEP1.
As far as I know (at least from what I've read), Negative Energy is something that is specifically in Nihility Magic, would have to show evidence that shows that Negative Energy exists in the void of hell, and that the void is everywher hell (or that at least demons are in the void before being summoned, or that all of hell itself is a void).

I’ll look for scans in a while.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Eldemadedityjon said it works, but maybe I misunderstood them.

Non duality doesn't automatically means NEP type 2.

Idealistic Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a sense further beyond conventional nonexistence. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence. These characters often have some form of Nonduality due to their lack of binary existence. Characters of this type have to behave at least as nonexistent as those with Material Nonexistence, but might display even further showings such as preceding or opposing existence.

It's just supporting that's all. You need solid proof for them being non existent to prove this.

 

[Lycoris4812]

Non duality doesn't automatically means NEP type 2.

Yeah but being nondual to a duality of existence and nonexistence grants it?

It's just supporting that's all. You need solid proof for them being non existent to prove this.

Does Veldanava need to be already nonexistent before his nonduality?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Yeah but being nondual to a duality of existence and nonexistence grants it?

Not automatically

Does Veldanava need to be already nonexistent before his nonduality?

Yes. He should be non-existent importantly.