Tengen Toppen Gurren Lagann and Granzeboma Revision

[LoudCloud]

I made a thread asking a few questions about their tiers and I think we found some problems with their profiles. What it basically boils down to is:

- Their Universe+ tiers are never justififed. The profiles talk about the Big Bang Storm that Grazemboa produced but Big Bangs on this wiki are considered Universe level at best or less (eg. Pre-crisis Superman's tier, Gumball's durability etc.).

- Apparently their Universe+ tier is due to them both being made of a living Universe but this is never mentioned nor proved in their profiles.

- TTGL's initial High Universe tier is due to suriving an attack from Granzeboma for a period of time, but Granzeboma is Universe+ level according to it's profile.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Big Bangs are actually Low 2-C.

We just treat them as 3-A for Superman and Gumball because those were portrayed as huge explosions instead of realistically.

TTGL is quite a bit below said Low 2-C. So High 3-A.

 

[AguilaR101]

I reckon TTGL gets High 3-A from the infinity big bang storm, which taken at face value it's an infinite 3-D attack.

The anti spiral explicitly stated to be holding back against thte team as means to inflict maximum despair, so initial TTGL only gets scaled to that rather than the full extent of Anti-Spiral's power which comes from creating and substaining his universe.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

We really need some sort of standard for rating big bang feats, our ratings for it is all over the place from multi-galaxy level to universe+ level.

 

[AguilaR101]

Big Bangs are actually Low 2-C.
We just treat them as 3-A for Superman and Gumball because those were portrayed as huge explosions instead of realistically.

TTGL is quite a bit below said Low 2-C. So High 3-A.

Thing is that the attack doesn't fit a realistic criteria either, it is called big bang and it is likened to one by statements, but there is no mention of it creating another space-time and is rather portrayed as an attack of pure raw energy.

 

[LoudCloud]

Why should we take the Infinity Big Bang Storm's name at face value? It might be called the "Infinity" Big Bang Storm and all and the Anti-Spiral refers to it as an "everlasting hellfire" but that could just be hyperbole. The scientists in this situation (the ones who are actually analysing everything and giving a description of it) describe the attack as not being infinite in energy. One of them says it's on par with the birth of the Universe (not infinite) and another says that "We can't take much more of this" (you can't "take more" of infinity, it's already infinite).

And as AguillaR101 pointed out, it doesn't seem like a realistic portrayel of the Big Bang either considering the attack is blasting already-formed Galaxies at them. Altough one of the scientists pointed out the enrgy is on par with the birth of the Universe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kyhY-1XC3g

 

[Aeyu]

I feel as if damaging the Granzeboma/TTGL should be more a feat than the Infinity Big Bang storm, which is at least 3-A and if it comes from a Low 2-C being made of a sentient universe, then the attack as well as the characters who could slightly damage them would also be Low 2-C; no need for the High 3-A rating since Low 2-C is an INFINITE realm of power potentially (as stated in the recently revised 2-C) and STTGL could still be rated At least Low 2-C due to TTGL's Low 2-C being a lower degree and then the other characters being an even LOWER degree of Low 2-C. Remember, we scaled Goku to Low 2-C for being comparable to Jiren at ALL, and the TT mechs were able to inflict more damage onto Granzeboma than Goku did to Jiren.

 

[AguilaR101]

---

The anti-spiral was explicitly holding back though, only ones that would get scaled to Granzamboa is post- IBBS absorbtion TTGL, not because the attack by itself is tier 2 but because there is reason to believe that the anti-spiral stopped holding back past that point during the fight.

 

[Aeyu]

With the Infinity Big Bang Storm? How so?

And I'm not saying the attack is what should be scaled off of.

I think the fact that they could affect Granzeboma at all is what qualifies.

Goku did not hurt Jiren, either. Merely scratched him. Same with the TTGL fighters and Granzeboma. Yoko sniped Granzeboma's head, knocking him over and blasting a chunk of the Anti-Spiral homeworld away. The TT robots all should scale somewhat to TTGL, who was capable of fighting somewhat with Granzeboma already. Keep in mind that Granzeboma was >= TTGL, with Lordgenome saying that Granzeboma would *match* TTGL by its premise alone. For this reason, I think that TTGL and crew are *relative* to the IBBS, even if slightly weaker before absorption, because it didn't immediately destroy TTGL/TT mechs. Remember, Low 2-C can range INFINITELY.

 

[AguilaR101]

"With the Infinity Big Bang Storm? How so?"

I meant to say that scaling to the Anti-spiral/granzemboa should only be valid if there was reason the believe he had stopped holding back, which is something that he very likely did only after he launched the Infinity Big Bang Storm with the full intent of eliminating the crew.

As such I don't think any mechs that damaged Granzamboa before that point would scale to low 2-C as it is not clear if he is acually using the full extent of his power.

"The TT robots all should scale somewhat to TTGL..."

That they definitely do, as their performance wasn't any worse than TTGL, however I disagree on any of them getting outright tier 2 scaling from the Granzemboa for the reasons I mentioned above

"even if slightly weaker before absorption, because it didn't immediately destroy TTGL/TT mechs. Remember, Low 2-C can range INFINITELY."

Damage soaking attacks from a tier 2 character doesn't necessarily mean you're in the same tier either, using dragon ball as an example, neither SSBKK20 Goku nor Hit are considered to be Low 2-C just because they didn't get splattered by Jiren even though logic dictates they would need to be in that range in order to avoid that, (though I'm not entirely certain what's the exact criteria used for DBS scaling so this could be different).

IMHO: If the TT mechs/pre absorbtion TTGL get scaled to tier 2 it should be "Possibly/Likely Low 2-C" rather than Low 2-C outright.

 

[Aeyu]

1. But they DID manage to damage him, something that they weren't able to do when THEY weren't using their full power either. I would argue the only time the Anti-Spiral is REALLY serious is when he goes up against STTGL, but that form still got injured, which is indisputable, and that form/TTGL are Low 2-C, even if on a much lower end.

2. I still think they should on the same premise as the Granzeboma being Low 2-C, which they could tank the attack of (albeit slightly)

3. And that's very true, but they managed to DAMAGE the Granzeboma, if ever so slightly. Goku scales to Jiren based almost entirely off of one powerful kick + being similar in level.

Idk. I personally think the IBBS is just an extension of his power which was (imo) already Low 2-C. TTGL and robots *did* keep up, if even ever so slightly.

 

[Golden_Void]

• High Universe level: Characters who have an infinite degree of 3-dimensional power. Alternately 4-dimensional power that is shown as completely qualitatively superior to 3-Dimensional beings, but is less than universal in scale. Or that allows them to create large parts of a universal continuum. Take note that 4-D power should logically always be superior to countably infinite 3-D power, so characters within this tier are not necessarily comparable. Also take note that we consider most small scale time-space abilities as hax, not as AP.
• Universe level+: ("Low 2-C") This is for characters who can destroy and/or create the entire 4-dimensional space-time of one universe, not just the physical matter within one. For example, an entire timeline.

Now, the IBBS.

"Energy capable of creating universes"

Well AS made a universe and it has it's own space-time. The IBBS as well gave birth to entire galaxies (more prevalent in the movie versio), which formed from the beginningof the attack to getting launched into space (like a big bang), which takes time to do. This would be a Low 2-C attack, which is why TTGL is Low 2-C post absorption, and Granzeboma still broke TTGL down to parts.

They also tanked the explosion of the Anti-Spiral universe, which grew since it's first appearance due to IBBS. Lord Genome said the enemy was the universe itself, and there were statements made by the crew about "the infiniteuniverse", which in any context, Anti-Spiral remains a dominant influence/power.

All the pilots of TTGL should have at least Low 2-C dura tbh, for tanking the death of the Anti-Spiral universe which included its space-time. I'm also unsure about their AP, since Lord Genome and TTGL have Low 2-C for absorbing IBBS, yet TTGL's energy is composed of all the pilots who all received energy from the IBBS.

Simon/Nia should get possible void manipulation for existing in the voidof the Anti-spiral space.

SGGL should be 3-C via this, and not 4-B.

The universe within them comes from here .

 

[Antvasima]

@Saikou The Lewd King

That is correct yes.

@Celestial Pegasus

This may be the case, but I am not sure where to place such a regulation.

 

[Aeyu]

@UMR I still feel as if the AP of the Mechs is in the Low 2-C range for being able to hurt them. Maybe Likely Low 2-C even, but still in that range of power, or else they couldn't have affected the Low 2-C Granzeboma at all, which they did.

And I agree with the 3-C rating for SGGL; this could be extrapolated as well from the obscene amount of Spiral Energy recieved for absorbing that ocean of energy after the Death Spiral Machine was destroyed.

 

[RinkakuKagune]

Actually you technically can have more of an infinity. The decimal numbers between 0 and 1 are infinite but logically there are going to do be more decimal numbers between 0 and 2, because it not only contains the decimals between 0 and 1 but also 1 and 2. However speaking mathematically it's is in fact impossible to have a an infinity larger than another infinity. It depends on wether we take logic over maths.

 

[Antvasima]

We go by geometry, and are not going to stop using it.

 

[Aeyu]

Maths equate with logic, though...

And yes, that's what I was saying to some degree. TT Mechs and TTGL scale at least somewhat to Granzeboma. They were already affecting things on a universal scale. The Super Spiral Universe was a realm of pure thought where one could acheive all possibilites.

 

[LoudCloud]

What have we decided?

 

[Antvasima]

Big Bangs are actually Low 2-C.

We just treat them as 3-A for Superman and Gumball because those were portrayed as huge explosions instead of realistically.

TTGL is quite a bit below said Low 2-C. So High 3-A.

I am not sure, but here are Saikou's conclusions.

 

[LordAizenSama]

This would also apply to Aleister's big bang bomb, so I'm just following to see the conclusion made here is regarding big bangs.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, Saikou is correct about our standards. If somebody withstands a purely physical explosion, we tend to treat it as 3-A. If somebody generates a 4-D spacetime expansion that creates an entire universal continuum from scratch, it is Low 2-C.

However, I am not sure where to write it down. As a footnote in the Attack Potency page perhaps?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

As a footnote in the attack potency page under universe level can work i think.

 

[LordAizenSama]

There is also the Big Bang page we could put a note under.

 

[Antvasima]

@Celestial Pegasus

I was thinking of a footnote at the bottom of the page, as that is where we tend to place such information.

@LordAizenSama

That is a good idea.

 

[Antvasima]

Something like this perhaps?

"If a supposed Big Bang is inaccurately presented as a purely physical explosion, and a character withstands it, we tend to treat it as a 3-A feat. If a character generates a 4-D spacetime expansion that creates an entire universal continuum from scratch, it is treated as Low 2-C."

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

That is fine.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will insert the addition to both pages then.

 

[LordAizenSama]

What if the big bang attack is described as being the energy of the creation of a universe, but the effects aren't shown?

Also I made my own Thread so as to not derail this one with ToAru stuff

EDIT: That note is fine, I think

 

[Antvasima]

There did not seem to be any appropriate place for the note in the Attack Potency and Tiering System pages, but I have placed it in the Big Bang page.

 

[Antvasima]

@LordAizenSama

I am uncertain, but if it is not presented as a spacetime event, or as creating a universe from scratch, I do not think that we can treat it that way.

 

[Aeyu]

What about the fact that TTGL and other robots were able to match Granzeboma, who was a Low 2-C mech even without the IBBS?

Goku is rated as Low 2-C for being comparable to Jiren, who was superior to Fusion Zamasu, even though he caused no permanent damage. Why wouldn't this be the same thing?

They were able to manipulate THE ENTIRETY of the Super Spiral Universe, so I would definitely say they were universal in scale, themselves already being the 4-D end of High 3-A. I can get scans if needed.

 

[Antvasima]

If what Aeyu says is correct, I suppose that the statistics should stay where they are.

 

[Aeyu]

Right before TTGL is formed, they say they will defy space and time, prevail even before an infinite Super Spiral Universe, where thought is given form, and say they will break through time and space to grab a hold of their own path, which is what forms TTGL to begin with (Spiral Power is based off intention, so this lines up. I can get scans for each of those statements in Japanese, and, since Dragon Ball's Low 2-C feats are determined by statements like these as well, it honestly makes sense, not to mention their attacks also having spacetime properties.) So honestly, with Granzeboma being a Low 2-C, I think that TTGL/Other TT mechs should also be Low 2-C, for the same reason Goku scales to Jiren, and that the IBBS shouldn't be used to scale since it's unquantifiable, other than a verification that their power is Universal+ (which it would have needed to be to metabolize that level of energy anyway)

However, if another key is made to differentiate the TV show from the movies, that might give everyone what they want.

 

[Antvasima]

So, do any explanations need to be added to any TTGL pages?

 

[Aeyu]

I am in support of an equalized Low 2-C upgrade for all such characters, with the Infinity Big Bang Storm no longer being the reasoning behind the Low 2-C rating, but instead them being able to affect space-time on a universal level (Their intention being to surpass space and time, having spacetime related attacks, and existing within, and being able to manipulate, a Super Spiral Universe) as well as being comparable, then equal to (after absorbing IBBS, which is either unquantifiable or can be assumed to be Low 2-C attack due to it coming from a Low 2-C being at full power) the Granzeboma. It has been stated in the past (and added to the Tiering System page, I believe) that Low 2-C's can be on a much higher level than one another, so this seems appropriate, especially considering the Anti-Spiral's 2-C rating and only using as much power as was needed to combat Team Dai-Gurren at that time.

 

[Antvasima]

Let's wait with doing anything drastic until we see what the others think.

 

[Aeyu]

That sounds fine, it's just a proposition.

 

[Golden_Void]

I'll check when I get free time.

 

[Antvasima]

Thanks.

 

[LoudCloud]

I don't really mind what gets changed as long as TTGL's profile gets a better written explanation for it's tier.