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Sonic the Hedgehog CRT: Super Form Speed with a Side of Perfect Dark Gaia

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CloverDragon03

CloverDragon03

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Hi, it's me again, bringing y'all yet another Sonic the Hedgehog CRT. This one is primarily about the speed of Super Forms, and since Perfect Dark Gaia is relevant to this, I figured now's as good a time as any to bring up something relevant about it. Here we go.

Super Form Speed
​
So, first things first is the matter of the speed of Super Forms. Currently, they're rated as outright Immeasurable. However, I don't think this is necessarily accurate for a number of reasons. In fact, I intend to return the speed of Super Forms to how it used to be: a variable rating.

To begin with, we know that the potency of the Chaos Emeralds is, well, chaotic - and can easily fluctuate depending on a variety of factors - such as the situation, usage, emotions, or aptitude. Currently, this only applies to AP, but given that the Chaos Emeralds amplify all the statistics of a Super Form user, this should naturally apply to speed as well.

(Note: Theoretically, it would apply to Lifting Strength too, but even the weakest usage of the 7 Chaos Emeralds is superior to the World Rings, which give Immeasurable LS, so it'd be wholly redundant)

With that established, we should take a look at the Immeasurable speed feats for the Super Forms:
There's also another feat that hasn't been accepted yet for Immeasurable speed, but I believe fits the bill for it.
The feats themselves aren't what's in question (except for the Egg Reverie Zone feat, which I feel should be self-explanatory). The sticking point in all this is that these are specific instances that shouldn't be used to generally scale every instance of a Super Form to Immeasurable speed. Unlike AP and LS, where Low 2-C and Immeasurable respectively are the baselines for Super Forms via scaling above the World Rings, the speed of these forms doesn't have an Immeasurable speed baseline. The fact that one of these feats is done by Classic Super Sonic doesn't change the fact that we handle Super Form scaling by looking at each instance of the transformation on its own merits. As such, not every instance of a Super Form showcases Immeasurable speed, and the profiles should reflect this.

As such, I propose that the speed of Super Forms be changed to: "Varies; Massively FTL+, up to Immeasurable at his/her peak"

The Massively FTL+ rating would come from being at minimum superior to the World Rings, which empower Darkspine Sonic. If the base form at the time has superior speed to that and the Super Form's speed isn't Immeasurable, then it'd upscale from that base form.

(As an aside, Adventure 1 Super Sonic could also scale up from Modern Base Sonic, as both keep up with Perfect Chaos)

Of course, this also means a number of characters will lose their Immeasurable speed due to having no such feats or scaling. The list of those that will be downgraded is as follows:
Unless...

An Alternative Solution: The Klepto Mobile​
As I was making this, I realized something.

In the same clip about the Egg Reverie Zone, I noticed that the Klepto Mobile actually moves in the Egg Reverie Zone as well, despite Base Classic Sonic being unable to. This would actually scale the Klepto Mobile to Immeasurable speed, and not only that, it provides a baseline for the minimum for Super Forms. Despite having access to this level of tech, Dr. Eggman still seeks out the Chaos Emeralds for their "unimaginable power", which wouldn't make sense if he could just blitz past Chaos Emerald-amped beings like Super Forms so easily.

As such, Super Forms could at minimum scale above the Klepto Mobile, along with those that scale to minimum level Super Forms, allowing them to maintain their Immeasurable tier.

But, hang on... I was looking through those that might be downgraded, and it feels like I'm missing someone...

Perfect Dark Gaia​
Oh yeah, this goober.

See, under our current scaling, Perfect Dark Gaia would also be downgraded. In fact, if my upcoming proposal and the Klepto Mobile scaling are both rejected, he will be. But, I'd like to propose something while I'm at it.

In Sonic Frontiers, Sonic and Tails see into the past and watch The End casually wipe out the Ancients. After this finishes, Tails remarks that this level of attack from The End was easily on par with Dark Gaia. Bearing in mind that even a casual version of The End would be Low 1-C and Immeasurable speed (as it easily kept up with and fought the Titans), this would place Perfect Dark Gaia in the upper echelon of Super Form scaling, upgrading him to Low 1-C and allowing him to maintain his Immeasurable speed rating.

If this is not accepted, Perfect Dark Gaia's speed will be downgraded to Massively FTL+ like the rest, unless the Klepto Mobile scaling is accepted, and his AP will remain unchanged.

And well, that's about it on my end. With that said, I leave it to all of you, and I ask that we keep things civil. Now...

DISCUSS!

Agree:
Disagree: 1 (@DarkDragonMedeus [with Dark Gaia scaling; is okay with an "at most" rating])
Neutral: 2 (@Eseseso [on speed], @Remus1998 [on Dark Gaia])
 
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Upgrading all those guys to Immeasurable was just... yeah, no bueno, and also leads to some scaling loopholes I'm glad are being remedied. Easy agree with that.

The main reason I'm hesitant to include Immeasurable Klepto is because one could reason he might potentially be capable of upgrading his tech to that level of speed later. But I'll admit this is moreso my own incredulity rather than anything wrong with it, and my concern may not even be valid, so I agree.

Perfect Dark Jobber... I think an "at most" is better imo but honestly I think it potentially downscaling as you
 
ShakeResounding said:
Upgrading all those guys to Immeasurable was just... yeah, no bueno, and also leads to some scaling loopholes I'm glad are being remedied. Easy agree with that.

The main reason I'm hesitant to include Immeasurable Klepto is because one could reason he might potentially be capable of upgrading his tech to that level of speed later. But I'll admit this is moreso my own incredulity rather than anything wrong with it, and my concern may not even be valid, so I agree.

Perfect Dark Jobber... I think an "at most" is better imo but honestly I think it potentially downscaling as you
Click to expand...
Thanks for responding. The main issue at hand, though, is that Immeasurable Klepto, for my reasons provided, could end up leading to all these guys remaining at Immeasurable. That's something that needs to be hashed out. Basically, can we say that the minimum speed for Super Forms is above that of the Klepto Mobile? I don't really mind either way.
 
I'm not sure if simply moving in a realm where time flows randomly qualifies for Immeasurable; though the other two from Time Eater and what the Super trio demonstrated during their fights with Solaris are valid. Also, I didn't really feel right making all of those not as potent end game bosses Immeasurable when they didn't make use of such feats or truly on par with Super Sonic.

And as for Dark Gaia, he's admittedly in a rock and a hard place as base Sonic was able to assist in fighting him; so him being on the level of Solaris and the End seems a bit much. While he did fight Super Sonic afterwards, I'm not sure if this was something that had details change from the Chaos Emerald revision. I do remember that Super Sonic wasn't as buffed as he normally was when he fought Dark Gaia. And the comparison Tails was making I think has more to do with the level of destruction he caused back then rather than them being neck and neck at their peaks.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I'm not sure if simply moving in a realm where time flows randomly qualifies for Immeasurable; though the other two from Time Eater and what the Super trio demonstrated during their fights with Solaris are valid. Also, I didn't really feel right making all of those not as potent end game bosses Immeasurable when they didn't make use of such feats or truly on par with Super Sonic.
Click to expand...
This is a notable concern, especially given that if the Mania feat isn't Immeasurable, then the Klepto Mobile scaling as a whole just goes out the window
DarkDragonMedeus said:
And as for Dark Gaia, he's admittedly in a rock and a hard place as base Sonic was able to assist in fighting him; so him being on the level of Solaris and the End seems a bit much. While he did fight Super Sonic afterwards, I'm not sure if this was something that had details change from the Chaos Emerald revision. I do remember that Super Sonic wasn't as buffed as he normally was when he fought Dark Gaia. And the comparison Tails was making I think has more to do with the level of destruction he caused back then rather than them being neck and neck at their peaks.
Click to expand...
I'm admittedly not the most knowledgeable on Unleashed, so if those knowledgeable could clarify further on this point, that'd help a ton. That being said, I don't think I agree on the Tails point, given that what Tails says ("Whatever assaulted the island sure packed a punch. That was on par with Dark Gaia, easy.") seems a lot more like a statement of power as opposed to destruction caused. I also don't think destruction caused would exactly line up with this, given that Dark Gaia was threatening the world while all they saw from The End was it blowing up an island.

It's also worth noting that Perfect Dark Gaia would only scale to a casual The End, not necessarily even the power it used to fight Super Sonic and Supreme, which already isn't even its full power.
 
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DarkDragonMedeus said:
I'm not sure if simply moving in a realm where time flows randomly qualifies for Immeasurable; though the other two from Time Eater and what the Super trio demonstrated during their fights with Solaris are valid. Also, I didn't really feel right making all of those not as potent end game bosses Immeasurable when they didn't make use of such feats or truly on par with Super Sonic.
Click to expand...
moving beyond linear time is a way to get immeasurable according to the speed page, so i think that it could work as evidence, spawn uses something similar in his description for immeasurable, altho that is a bit of whataboutism, so i will not use it as a main point

now to let the thread get traction as i go to sleep
 
omegabronic said:
moving beyond linear time is a way to get immeasurable according to the speed page, so i think that it could work as evidence, spawn uses something similar in his description for immeasurable, altho that is a bit of whataboutism, so i will not use it as a main point

now to let the thread get traction as i go to sleep
Click to expand...
Not really, plenty of characters simply have time travel without having Immeasurable reaction speed. It's more specifically being able to casually move and react through linear time as if it were as easy as moving or reacting to the left and right.
 
I don't think this is the same as time travel. This is being able to move in a space where time is constantly shifting back and forth
 
I agree that not all Super level threats should innately scale to Immeasurable unless the Klepto Mobile feat is accepted (which I can agree with)

Neutral on Dark Gaia
 
CloverDragon03 said:
I don't think this is the same as time travel. This is being able to move in a space where time is constantly shifting back and forth
Click to expand...
I'm aware, I was simply correcting a statement he made. But even so, I have a feeling feats like that tie similarly to our timeless void standards and that everyone and everything is randomly moving forward and backward in time based on the realm having a disorganized time stream rather than anyone actively being able to move at such speeds naturally.
 
If Perfect Chaos gets his Immeasurable speed rating removed then Sonic keeping up with him shouldn't be an outlier anymore
 
CloverDragon03 said:
In the same clip about the Egg Reverie Zone, I noticed that the Klepto Mobile actually moves in the Egg Reverie Zone as well, despite Base Classic Sonic being unable to. This would actually scale the Klepto Mobile to Immeasurable speed, and not only that, it provides a baseline for the minimum for Super Forms. Despite having access to this level of tech, Dr. Eggman still seeks out the Chaos Emeralds for their "unimaginable power", which wouldn't make sense if he could just blitz past Chaos Emerald-amped beings like Super Forms so easily.
Click to expand...
I am extremely against the Klepto Mobile being used as a "baseline". That mech is using the Phantom Ruby in the fight. It's not some regular old mech that we can upscale for no reason. In the fight itself we see it fight Super Sonic equally, too.

So, no. Disagree with that. I agree with Egg Reverie being immeasurable, however. Just not being the baseline.

I agree with the downgrade for the other characters.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
And as for Dark Gaia, he's admittedly in a rock and a hard place as base Sonic was able to assist in fighting him; so him being on the level of Solaris and the End seems a bit much. While he did fight Super Sonic afterwards, I'm not sure if this was something that had details change from the Chaos Emerald revision.
Click to expand...
Dark Gaia transforms into his true form when fighting Super Sonic, so base Sonic fighting base Dark Gaia is irrelevant. It's like not scaling Solaris to Super Sonic because he fights Mephiles before. He got stronger and transformed.

I agree with the Dark Gaia upgrade, but I would prefer "at most".
 
Theuser789 said:
I am extremely against the Klepto Mobile being used as a "baseline". That mech is using the Phantom Ruby in the fight. It's not some regular old mech that we can upscale for no reason. In the fight itself we see it fight Super Sonic equally, too.

So, no. Disagree with that. I agree with Egg Reverie being immeasurable, however. Just not being the baseline.

I agree with the downgrade for the other characters.
Click to expand...
It can move in the zone even before it even touches the phantom ruby
 
So does the Heavy King before putting the Ruby in his head. Even Sonic "moves" up and down before going super. It doesn't mean anything when it uses the Ruby every other time.
 
Theuser789 said:
So does the Heavy King before putting the Ruby in his head. Even Sonic "moves" up and down before going super. It doesn't mean anything when it uses the Ruby every other time.
Click to expand...
The phantom ruby used the ruby to transform, so it not touching doesn't matter for the fact that it would scale to it regardless, Sonic can't move, he is left without action, already acnowledged in the profiles, thus him bumping up and down is irrelevant

The kleptomobile move in the begining of the fight going after the phantom king ans engaging with him, showing that it scales to the feat even before it gets the phantom ruby
 
omegabronic said:
The phantom ruby used the ruby to transform,
Click to expand...
What? If you're talking about the Heavy King, we don't even see him transforming prior to the scene. The Ruby is with Eggman, they get teleported to Egg Reverie, and then the Phantom King shows up to take it. Your point doesn't make sense, the Kleptomobile still needs the Ruby to move in the world.

Even then, it seems like this isn't even an immeasurable feat, either.
 
I suppose the Egg Reverie Zone feat would be Resistance to Time Manipulation based on what was said above.

That aside, agree with the revisions.
 
I’ll update the tally once I have time. From what I was told before, I had no idea about the Klepto Mobile using the Phantom Ruby, so that was just a massive oversight on my part
 
Since the egg reverie wqs disagreed upon, what do we do exactly? Scale the base of Super Forms to modern Sonic in generations due to the perfect chaos boss fight?
 
omegabronic said:
Since the egg reverie wqs disagreed upon, what do we do exactly? Scale the base of Super Forms to modern Sonic in generations due to the perfect chaos boss fight?
Click to expand...
Either that or upscale from Darkspine Sonic, as initially planned
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Either that or upscale from Darkspine Sonic, as initially planned
Click to expand...
One doesn't stop the other, at the very least adventure era super forms should scale to modern sonic during generations

And for recent superforms it should heavily upscale from the accepted multipliers such as the spin dash and the boost
 
Also this should go without saying, but if the Mania feat is considered invalid, then the Klepto Mobile scaling goes out the window and the Phantom King also loses its Immeasurable speed
 
Neutral on speed stuff, but I easily agree with Low 1-C Dark Gaia since I myself mentioned that in the past in the discussion thread.
 
Maverick_Zero_X said:
I suppose the Egg Reverie Zone feat would be Resistance to Time Manipulation based on what was said above.

That aside, agree with the revisions.
Click to expand...
If you don’t consider it an Immeasurable feat, should I put you down for the “Massively FTL+ to Immeasurable” side? Along with the Perfect Dark Gaia thing ofc
 
I've updated the tally. Only thing I didn't really do was put DDM down for anything regarding Dark Gaia, since I'm not sure what his stance on that is
 
Remus1998 said:
I agreed with the first proposition
Click to expand...
You said unless the Klepto Mobile scaling is accepted, which you agreed with, so I thought that meant you preferred the second proposition. I'll update the OP accordingly
 
Theuser789 said:
Dark Gaia transforms into his true form when fighting Super Sonic, so base Sonic fighting base Dark Gaia is irrelevant. It's like not scaling Solaris to Super Sonic because he fights Mephiles before. He got stronger and transformed.
Click to expand...
Oh yeah, forgot that there were different forms so nevermind base Sonic.

But I still have other concerns. The statement also more implies the power to be at least as strong as Dark Gaia (Had Dark Gaia been where scaling starts, it easily would upgrade the End, but I wouldn't assume Dark Gaia is as strong as End). My vote is still on the offense for those reasons, but I will be okay with at most ratings if that's what the majority agrees with.
 
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