Sword Art Online Speed Downgrade.

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

So can you bring me the scan which could differentiate the actual star with the palm sized star

I guess with example, there is a sandbox, you mean is that the stars there for decoration or something? If there is such an event, we can need some more information about the stars being actual stars, I don't know the novel of the series (just watch anime), just inference.

 

[ElixirBlue]

As I said, that feat has nothing to do with this thread.

We stick to the topic of the OP in a CRT, not make it a general verse CRT, that's called derailing.

I agree. I did a CRT on 1 character scaling, and someone tried to inappropriately turn it into a verse wide CRT. This CRT should just focus on the OP.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

But if there are real galaxies in it, I can't quite understand why they can't be stars

First, Underworld is not a game, it's an alternate universe, and yes, they're real world sized, these place has literal galaxies inside of it.

 

[Dereck03]

this is going nowhere

 

[Speezenator]

Different feat or the same feat using a different distance?

If it's the former then it needs a separate CRT, if it's the latter then I'm not knowledgeable enough about the LN to say.

Same feat with a different distance iirc. Since instead of the distance from Earth to Mars/Mercury, he's saying to change the distance calc. It should be from Earth to Alpha Centauri (according to what dude says).

 

[Purgy]

Same feat with a different distance iirc. Since instead of the distance from Earth to Mars/Mercury, he's saying to change the distance calc. It should be from Earth to Alpha Centauri (according to what dude says).

That's what I thought at first as well, but apparently it's a different feat according to Ionliosite

 

[Speezenator]

Different feat. Also, why would it need a different CRT? We're already talking about speed, so it's on topic.

Actually it's just different distance iirc. Read my reply to Purgy.

 

[Ionliosite]

Actually it's just different distance iirc. Read my reply to Purgy.

No, it's a different feat. I'm not using the Admina to Cadmina feat, but the general interstella travel of the Mechadragons.

 

[Kaantantr]

I guess this is as good of a place to start as any.

I'd like to remind you that as Underworld is for now, there is no "interstellar travel", which would imply travel from one system to another. So far, Cardinal System has only generated 2 celestial bodies (Cardina & Admina) as well as Solus that they are orbiting around. Everything else is a skybox around these generated objects.

 

[Zencha9]

What says that a Skybox can't have stars inside it?

 

[Kaantantr]

A skybox in reality refers to an enclosed dome. In game worlds, it is exactly the same, albeit virtual. It is just a 2D visual, or layers of 2D visuals covering around the playable gameworld. Its contents do not exist, they imitate their existence, the same way a dome in a planetarium imitates the existence of our real sky and its various celestial objects.

But again, the topic of a skybox is a tangent anyways. Kirito has never travelled between stars. The most he has done is travelling between Cardina and Admina. He even has a personal Mechadragon jet, X'rphan, named after the Wyrm boss that he fought during Warmth of the Heart side story, as is revealed in Unital Ring IV.

 

[RitsuØ1]

A skybox in reality refers to an enclosed dome. In game worlds, it is exactly the same, albeit virtual. It is just a 2D visual, or layers of 2D visuals covering around the playable gameworld. Its contents do not exist, they imitate their existence, the same way a dome in a planetarium imitates the existence of our real sky and its various celestial objects.

So, for example, the stars in Elite Dangerous are not real since those stars are also contained inside a skybox?

Kirito has never travelled between stars. The most he has done is travelling between Cardina and Admina.

Can you explain further how there are no stars in the Underworld? We already know there are two planets and a sun. If there is at least one star in addition to it, then we have a solar system. Traveling around a solar system is Interstellar Travel which you proclaimed there is no Interstellar Travel in the Underworld. Sorry if this came out rude.

 

[Kaantantr]

I am not familiar with Elite Dangerous, so I cannot comment on that. But yes, in games, nothing you see in a Skybox actually "exists". It is just a painting to give you the illusion that they exist. If you go into the game files, you see they are all textures to paint the sky, no geometry at all.

Can you explain further how there are no stars in the Underworld? We already know there are two planets and a sun. If there is at least one star in addition to it, then we have a solar system. Traveling around a solar system is Interstellar Travel which you proclaimed there is no Interstellar Travel in the Underworld. Sorry if this came out rude.

For in game content, you need to separate your understanding from what is real and distinguish the difference of what is real and what is "unreal". In-game skies are simply put, paintings in a dome ceiling as mentioned above.

Interstellar according to Oxford Dictionary means "occurring or situated between stars." So traveling between two planets of the same star (Solus) does not constitute as interstellar travel as there is only a single star to be referenced, rather than two or more to be "in-between of". Cambridge Dictionary as a secondary reference.

 

[RitsuØ1]

I am not familiar with Elite Dangerous, so I cannot comment on that. But yes, in games, nothing you see in a Skybox actually "exists". It is just a painting to give you the illusion that they exist. If you go into the game files, you see they are all textures to paint the sky, no geometry at all.

Really? Cuz' the stars, which are contained inside a skybox, are real.

Interstellar according to Oxford Dictionary means "occurring or situated between stars." So traveling between two planets of the same star (Solus) does not constitute as interstellar travel as there is only a single star to be referenced, rather than two or more to be "in-between of". Cambridge Dictionary as a secondary reference.

Wikipedia says otherwise

 

[Kaantantr]

Really? Cuz' the stars, which are contained inside a skybox, are real.

That is correct, albeit an oversimplification. There are indeed games that create fully playable worlds, especially procedurally generated play spaces. This includes No Man's Sky as well as a more recent and more known example. However, do not mistake a skybox and playable geometry together. These games too have skyboxes. No game ever actually renders far away objects. A simpler example is draw distance in open world games. They use the same concept. Go far away enough and the system renders out the actual existence of an object and replaces it with a texture file instead, as all systems have a physical limit and cannot process "infinity" that is universe. Move far away enough, and you'll even see the texture itself disappear.

But it is great that you mentioned this! It means I can get into how the Cardinal System functions and how it generates content, although unless there is additional interest, I'll try to keep it short, since I feel it's a big tangent for this thread.

Cardinal System does not relentlessly create. It is an incredibly efficient moderation/sustainability system that oversees a game world. It only creates when it is told to or when it needs to adapt to unforeseen events. As an example, I will use Sword Art Online Progressive 2, Concerto of Black and White, the Floor 3 story of Aincrad. The creation in this case is not an object, but an entire questline. Floor 3 features the beginning of the Elf War Campaign that spans almost a dozen floors. You start the quest by encountering a Dark Elf and a Forest Elf fighting each other. You pick a side to fight the other and in the end, the quest is designed so that the NPC you are protecting, sacrifices themselves to save you. However, Kirito and Asuna unexpectedly manage to save Kizmel before she can sacrifice herself, throwing the entire questline out of the window, which puts Cardinal in a position to adapt to the new circumstances. Kizmel does not respond as if she's frozen for a couple seconds and suddenly starts reacting to things much more realistically than an NPC ever would, so she would continue the quest by generating solutions to the now should-be-broken questline. This occurrence is explained much later in the series, in the Cordial Chords side story, where Eiji explains the 3 layers of Cardinal's language engine tiers, where we finally understand what Cardinal did was to bump up Kizmel to a higher layer for her to adapt and create content on the go.

We know for a fact from Higa and Kikuoka's statements is that they have created a very limited simulation, consisting of only the map we see in Volume 15, Alicization Invading. Kikuoka and Higa explain their scope of creation back in Volume 10, Alicization Running. The entire map of what they have created is what Underworld consists of at their creation, surrounded by impassably large walls. In the hundreds of years long history of Underworld, not even Integrity Knights were able to fly over this wall with their dragons. However, once Dragon Jets are discovered and Underworlders manage to fly over this wall, Cardinal has to adapt to the unforeseen circumstances and thus it generates content beyond the wall, a vast whiteness devoid of anything. Similarly, when the jets reach the space, much like the Divine Beasts on the ground, it now creates Divine Beasts in space too, because any place people have reached requires content to play. And so it goes. Until there is need for content, Cardinal creates no content. Until people actually manage to reach other stars, there is no reason for those stars to exist thus Cardinal won't actually create them.

Wikipedia says otherwise

It actually does. Not sure which portion you read but it literally says "between stars and planetary systems", it specifically uses the plural form. A single Planetary System refers to planets orbiting around a star, according to Wikipedia. "Between planetary systems" means you need to travel from the orbit of one star that planets rotate around, into another system where other planets rotate around another star.

 

[RitsuØ1]

That is correct, albeit an oversimplification. There are indeed games that create fully playable worlds, especially procedurally generated play spaces. This includes No Man's Sky as well as a more recent and more known example. However, do not mistake a skybox and playable geometry together. These games too have skyboxes. No game ever actually renders far away objects. A simpler example is draw distance in open world games. They use the same concept. Go far away enough and the system renders out the actual existence of an object and replaces it with a texture file instead, as all systems have a physical limit and cannot process "infinity" that is universe. Move far away enough, and you'll even see the texture itself disappear.

But it is great that you mentioned this! It means I can get into how the Cardinal System functions and how it generates content, although unless there is additional interest, I'll try to keep it short, since I feel it's a big tangent for this thread.

Cardinal System does not relentlessly create. It is an incredibly efficient moderation/sustainability system that oversees a game world. It only creates when it is told to or when it needs to adapt to unforeseen events. As an example, I will use Sword Art Online Progressive 2, Concerto of Black and White, the Floor 3 story of Aincrad. The creation in this case is not an object, but an entire questline. Floor 3 features the beginning of the Elf War Campaign that spans almost a dozen floors. You start the quest by encountering a Dark Elf and a Forest Elf fighting each other. You pick a side to fight the other and in the end, the quest is designed so that the NPC you are protecting, sacrifices themselves to save you. However, Kirito and Asuna unexpectedly manage to save Kizmel before she can sacrifice herself, throwing the entire questline out of the window, which puts Cardinal in a position to adapt to the new circumstances. Kizmel does not respond as if she's frozen for a couple seconds and suddenly starts reacting to things much more realistically than an NPC ever would, so she would continue the quest by generating solutions to the now should-be-broken questline. This occurrence is explained much later in the series, in the Cordial Chords side story, where Eiji explains the 3 layers of Cardinal's language engine tiers, where we finally understand what Cardinal did was to bump up Kizmel to a higher layer for her to adapt and create content on the go.

We know for a fact from Higa and Kikuoka's statements is that they have created a very limited simulation, consisting of only the map we see in Volume 15, Alicization Invading. Kikuoka and Higa explain their scope of creation back in Volume 10, Alicization Running. The entire map of what they have created is what Underworld consists of at their creation, surrounded by impassably large walls. In the hundreds of years long history of Underworld, not even Integrity Knights were able to fly over this wall with their dragons. However, once Dragon Jets are discovered and Underworlders manage to fly over this wall, Cardinal has to adapt to the unforeseen circumstances and thus it generates content beyond the wall, a vast whiteness devoid of anything. Similarly, when the jets reach the space, much like the Divine Beasts on the ground, it now creates Divine Beasts in space too, because any place people have reached requires content to play. And so it goes. Until there is need for content, Cardinal creates no content. Until people actually manage to reach other stars, there is no reason for those stars to exist thus Cardinal won't actually create them.

It actually does. Not sure which portion you read but it literally says "between stars and planetary systems", it specifically uses the plural form. A single Planetary System refers to planets orbiting around a star, according to Wikipedia. "Between planetary systems" means you need to travel from the orbit of one star that planets rotate around, into another system where other planets rotate around another star.

Holy. That is very long. I'm gonna take a break since I was having a massive headache since I woke up. I'll try to reply later.

 

[Agnaa]

We define Interstellar Range as 4.22 to 50,000 light years, at smallest, the distance from Earth to the nearest star, and at largest, the radius of the Milky Way. Wikipedia/Dictionary definitions don't matter much, but just traveling around a solar system would not reach that under out system (unless we get explicit statements of it being over 4 light years large).

I'd also like to say that if the skyboxes in SAO are dismissed as not real, there should be a good reason for it, and it wouldn't apply to pretty much any actual video game verse. We consider stuff within games to be representations of reality; Ocarina of Time has a skybox showing a star, but we assume that's meant to demonstrate that a star exists in that world. However, if a series in another medium about video games (like SAO or Log Horizon) acknowledges that their skyboxes aren't real parts of the simulated world a comparable distance away, then that'd be a good reason to dismiss them, imo.

 

[Kaantantr]

I'd also like to say that if the skyboxes in SAO are dismissed as not real, there should be a good reason for it, and it wouldn't apply to pretty much any actual video game verse. We consider stuff within games to be representations of reality; Ocarina of Time has a skybox showing a star, but we assume that's meant to demonstrate that a star exists in that world. However, if a series in another medium about video games (like SAO or Log Horizon) acknowledges that their skyboxes aren't real parts of the simulated world a comparable distance away, then that'd be a good reason to dismiss them, imo.

You see, that is exactly why the text I have just written was so long, to explicitly elaborate on how Content Creation works under Cardinal System. If you want a shorter explanation, Reki Kawahara's statements should suffice.



He is stating the current largest size of Underworld (Underworld always refers to the entire simulation, Project Alicization itself) consists of Solus, and Cardina & Admina circling around it.

The exact translation would be:

That's right. The current maximum size of the Underworld is one sun and two planets orbiting it.

He explicitly states the stars in the distance do not actually exist for the time being.

Edit:
Reki's direct mention of the sky being the same as our current Underworld games, a Skybox:


Exact translation would be:

1. It is basically the same starry sky we see in open world games.
2. The specific distance should be revealed in SAO volume 26, but it is much, much closer than Earth and Mars.

He also casually mentions Cardina and Admina are closer together than Earth and Mars are and the exact distance would be revealed in the next volume. It currently does not have a release date, as his current focus has been Progressive 7 & 8, Rhapsody of the Red Blaze. We may get it in December 2021, but given his schedule with 2 back to back Progressive volumes and now work on the upcoming Progressive movie, it may be sometime next year instead.

 

[Ionliosite]

Ok, so my next question would obviously be: if you claim the stars don't exist, then how are the Mechadragons supposed to achieve the interstellar travel that's mentioned with them multiple times? Or for that matter, how are the stars able to react to physical actions if they aren't even there?

 

[Kaantantr]

Ok, so my next question would obviously be: if you claim the stars don't exist, then how are the Mechadragons supposed to achieve the interstellar travel that's mentioned with them multiple times? Or for that matter, how are the stars able to react to physical actions if they aren't even there?

Great question actually! The thing is, they didn't. At least not in real world standards as we define "interstellar". If you read the v18 Prologue III, the planets Cardina and Admina are referred to as "companion stars" rather than "planets". And that distinction leads to terminology choices that do not match our reality. If you travel between stars, it is interstellar travel. But now imagine what happens if instead of the word "planet", you use the word "companion star" to describe what is actually a "planet"? Naturally, that linguistic choice leads to the travel between Cardina and Admina being referred to as "interstellar" because Cardina and Admina are referred to as "Companion Stars". Simple as that really. A linguistic terminology shift, due to how they refer to planets.

 

[Ionliosite]

Ok, but that doesn't answer the second question: if they don't exist, how are they affacted by physical movements?

The innumerable stars reflected in Steeka’s widened eyes shook like ripples on water. Next moment, a shockwave roared past her and rumbled the mechadragon’s enormous body.

I saw in your Twitter the translator comparing the scene to Thor vs Captain America, and in that scene, there was a shaking, then an explosion, so these things you claim don't actually exist are explicity moving.

 

[Kaantantr]

Ok, but that doesn't answer the second question: if they don't exist, how are they affacted by physical movements?

The innumerable stars reflected in Steeka’s widened eyes shook like ripples on water. Next moment, a shockwave roared past her and rumbled the mechadragon’s enormous body.

I saw in your Twitter the translator comparing the scene to Thor vs Captain America, and in that scene, there was a shaking, then an explosion, so these things you claim don't actually exist are explicity moving.

Uhmmm, they are not moving at all. Imagine a droplet falling on a completely still water. You'll see the ripples move and those ripples will make it look like the seaweed in the bottom of the ocean to look like they are moving, because the ripple refracts the light. A shockwave is the exact same thing. A pressurized wave that is denser than usual refracts the light more than non-pressurized air, so as the ripple is moving across, it will refract light and it will make it look like whatever is behind the ripple is moving.

Like, Defan, the translator of the text you are citing, explicitly explained this. No need to argue against the translator, using his translation. He clarified what he translated. And it is explicitly this.

 

[Kaantantr]

To give you a visual illustration to make it easier to conceptualize, check our this gameplay demo of Destiny from E3:


At 9 minutes 11 seconds, a Fallen Ketch is arriving on the scene very close, causing a shockwave. The things nearby shake, the Exodus ship in the back even crumbles as it was right next to the shockwave. And as the shockwave moves and arrives at you, you see the far away clouds "warp" as well as the far away mountains in the back. However, they did not actually shake, it just looked like they did, because the high pressure wave of the shockwave refracted the light and caused it to warp for a second. That is how shockwaves work. The stars Stica mentions are the mountains in the far back in this Destiny demo.

 

[Ionliosite]

So, considering the scene you showed and the explanation you presented, you're not dennying something shook, just that the stars doing it is a visual illusion created by the shockwave. Which leads me to my next question: what shook? How far does the shaking go if the boundaries of it are a visual ilusion?

 

[Kaantantr]

So, considering the scene you showed and the explanation you presented, you're not dennying something shook, just that the stars doing it is a visual illusion created by the shockwave. Which leads me to my next question: what shook? How far does the shaking go if the boundaries of it are a visual ilusion?

Nobody ever denied something shook. Obviously, there was a shockwave. All we know is, the shockwave never reached the nearby Cardina, as the Cardina Space Force had to observe the Abyssal Horror's orbit for a period of time when Stica and Laura returned with their report to validate a fight had taken place against the Abyssal Horror and that it was really defeated just like they say.

 

[Agnaa]

@Ion Presumably the vicinity of Steeka and the mechadragon. It's not a very exact distance, but just somewhere in that area.

 

[RitsuØ1]

All we know is, the shockwave never reached the nearby Cardina, as the Cardina Space Force had to observe the Abyssal Horror's orbit for a period of time when Stica and Laura returned with their report to validate a fight had taken place against the Abyssal Horror and that it was really defeated just like they say.

Do you have the scan for that?

 

[Ionliosite]

This is technically starting to derail, but I'm curious now that you bring it up, why do you say Cardina wasn't affected?

 

[Speezenator]

Anyways, this starting to go off track, we'll deal with that another time. As for the speed, I say we just use the distance from Earth to Mars for now since that's all we really have. Assuming we do so,

Distance from Earth to Mars is 312.01 million km
It takes 3 hours.
312.01 million/3 hours is
104.003 milion km/hr

 

[RitsuØ1]

@Ion Presumably the vicinity of Steeka and the mechadragon. It's not a very exact distance, but just somewhere in that area.

The shockwave actually went through all the way down to the void

 

[Kaantantr]

This is technically starting to derail, but I'm curious now that you bring it up, why do you say Cardina wasn't affected?

Why do you say Cardina was affected? I cannot prove something that never happened, so you gotta do the work there.

Do you have the scan for that?

Our JP raw copies are with Gsimenas, who is a doctor and is working heavy duty for months now due to Covid. He has already added my request to his backlog and will provide a screenshot from the japanese raw of the entire context of the Cardina Space Force scene.

But again, it is better if you don't claim things that are never told to have happened because of a misunderstanding.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Our JP raw copies are with Gsimenas, who is a doctor and is working heavy duty for months now due to Covid. He has already added my request to his backlog and will provide a screenshot from the japanese raw of the entire context of the Cardina Space Force scene.

But again, it is better if you don't claim things that are never told to have happened because of a misunderstanding.

Give him/her my mad respect, it is not easy to become or be a doctor

 

[RitsuØ1]

Why do you say Cardina was affected? I cannot prove something that never happened, so you gotta do the work there.

Nobody ever denied something shook. Obviously, there was a shockwave. All we know is, the shockwave never reached the nearby Cardina, as the Cardina Space Force had to observe the Abyssal Horror's orbit for a period of time when Stica and Laura returned with their report to validate a fight had taken place against the Abyssal Horror and that it was really defeated just like they say.

I'm a bit confused here

 

[Kaantantr]

I'm a bit confused here

What I'm saying is, if you are claiming Cardina was affected, you need to provide a citation that Cardina was affected. That is how sourcing works. Interpreting a simple shockwave in such a wildly out of ordinary way is not helpful either. Especially after I took the time to elaborately explain how a shockwave works, and even provided an actual visual example from a game. I know you have a lot of misinterpretations settled as if they are correct, but give it a bit of an open mind and listen to the explanations provided. That is why I am here, to clear the misunderstandings and answer your questions. Ionliosite is doing good, asking question after question. And I am here to answer.

But again, I will be providing the Space Force scene once Gsi gets back to me with the raw just to go the extra mile.

 

[Agnaa]

What I'm saying is, if you are claiming Cardina was affected, you need to provide a citation that Cardina was affected. That is how sourcing works.

Not to drag this unrelated point out too much more, but I think the confusion here is that after you explained why the shockwave could have distorted the stars without affecting them, you said that you know the shockwave never reached Cardina. And when people simply asked for the source on that you responded "Do you have a source that Cardina was affected?"

Which is kinda against how sourcing works, but I can get how that comes from sloppy wording/miscommunication.

 

[RitsuØ1]

What I'm saying is, if you are claiming Cardina was affected, you need to provide a citation that Cardina was affected. That is how sourcing works.

Not to drag this unrelated point out too much more, but I think the confusion here is that after you explained why the shockwave could have distorted the stars without affecting them, you said that you know the shockwave never reached Cardina. And when people simply asked for the source on that you responded "Do you have a source that Cardina was affected?"

^ This

 

[Kaantantr]

What I'm saying is, if you are claiming Cardina was affected, you need to provide a citation that Cardina was affected. That is how sourcing works.

Not to drag this unrelated point out too much more, but I think the confusion here is that after you explained why the shockwave could have distorted the stars without affecting them, you said that you know the shockwave never reached Cardina. And when people simply asked for the source on that you responded "Do you have a source that Cardina was affected?"

Which is kinda against how sourcing works, but I can get how that comes from sloppy wording/miscommunication.

That is correct. I was just trying to encourage people to provide citations for their claims, as I'm veering the point into "There is no reason to believe Cardina shook in the first place". Some people enjoy dodging explanations, so I have to encourage them to acknowledge certain things in specific ways.

It is otherwise very hard to argue when someone misunderstands the foundation of an event to reach incredibly misled conclusions, like misunderstanding a simple shockwave, which is just high air pressure, to be something that shakes a universe.

To further clarify, I already said I will go the extra mile to provide a source for the Space Force scene. But "Cardina didn't shake" is a separate argument that I will source as to how they weren't even aware something had transpired in their outer atmosphere, despite in a default scenario not needing to, because there was nothing to suggest it ever shook in the first place.

 

[Speezenator]

Anyways, this starting to go off track, we'll deal with that another time. As for the speed, I say we just use the distance from Earth to Mars for now since that's all we really have. Assuming we do so,

Distance from Earth to Mars is 312.01 million km
It takes 3 hours.
312.01 million/3 hours is
104.003 milion km/hr

Again, this convo is starting to derail. Can we just use this speed calc and end it?

 

[Kaantantr]

Why use a false calculation, when we are getting the correct distance in the next volume? Thats just asking for misinformation to be put up.
Just wait until v26 and have an actual correct distance info with a solid source.

 

[Speezenator]

Why use a false calculation, when we are getting the correct distance in the next volume? Thats just asking for misinformation to be put up.
Just wait until v26 and have an actual correct distance info with a solid source.

Like I said, this is FOR NOW. Obviously when we get the actual distance, we'll change it then but since we don't have that distance yet, this is the best option we have imo.