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Superboy-Prime Upgrades - Also Spoilers Probably

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Antvasima said:
I am sufficiently knowledgeable about Marvel and DC to usually recognise diehard razor-sharp analytical ability in these areas when I encounter it, and it is extremely hard to get a proper grasp of those franchises to the point that accurate scaling can be performed.
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Y'know this doesn't change the fact you're taking the words of someone who's not even participating in this argument over people who do
Not to mention you're low key implying the current people who deal with DC aren't that good lol, I don't think you mean that but it sure does come of like that
 
Regarding the grant morrison model, do we have supporting statements for infinite higher dimensions?
 
Antvasima said:
The fundamental scaling we have for the DC cosmic entities itself is completely messed up, given that we have not separated it for different writer cosmologies. This ends up with severe inconsistencies for the scaling of our profile pages, such as Superboy Prime overpowering TBWL, and TBWL being destroyed by a giant star, and the martian-human hybrids created by Perpetua being stated by her to be legitimate threats to her kind, and Perpetua pushing herself hard to destroy a single universe, etcetera, while also stating that TBWL can kill multiverse-creators in the same storyline. Meaning, the Morrison cosmology used here does not seem to reach anywhere near as high as 1-A.

@LuciferDC099 @Firestorm808 @Sandman31

I would appreciate your input help here.
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If i remember correctly, the Darkest Knight's power was limited because Earth-0 was destabilized (Preventing him to tap anymore power from it) until he fix it, but i have to reread the comics. Superboy-Prime with his Retcon Punch destroyed three universes of endless Crisis and possibly killed or damaged both Darkseid and Mobius. The Apex Predators of Perpetua were meant to evolve in a hundred thousand years and become powerful enough to kill her species. The star on which the Batman Who Laughs was killed was the end of everything, all Earths/universes, matter, stories ends there. I consider Perpetua being exhausted after destroying one universe as low stamina.
 
Tllmbrg said:
Y'know this doesn't change the fact you're taking the words of someone who's not even participating in this argument over people who do
Not to mention you're low key implying the current people who deal with DC aren't that good lol, I don't think you mean that but it sure does come of like that
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I am just saying that it is far harder to properly evaluate the scaling for the Marvel and DC cosmologies than for regular verses, given the several tens of thousands of issues involved, with writers that recurrently contradict each other.

In addition, Grant Morrison and Scott Snyder never established anywhere near a 1-A scale for their version of the cosmology as far as I am aware.
 
Anyway, for the time being I suppose that we could consider Superboy Prime to only have defeated TBWL in his in-multiverse Low 1-C manifestation, not the more powerful one in the 6th dimension outside of the multiverse, which would likely work the same way as for Perpetua.
 
Elizio33 said:
If i remember correctly, the Darkest Knight's power was limited because Earth-0 was destabilized (Preventing him to tap anymore power from it) until he fix it, but i have to reread the comics. Superboy-Prime with his Retcon Punch destroyed three universes of endless Crisis and possibly killed or damaged both Darkseid and Mobius. The Apex Predators of Perpetua were meant to evolve in a hundred thousand years and become powerful enough to kill her species. The star on which the Batman Who Laughs was killed was the end of everything, all Earths/universes, matter, stories ends there. I consider Perpetua being exhausted after destroying one universe as low stamina.
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Exactly this^^

Matthew_Schroeder said:
Yeah they remade the whole multiverse in a blatant 1-A feat.

Also BatKek planned to reach full power to defeat the Hands and it's very likely he would fail anyway. Perpetua also hoped to defeat her kind and got bodied.
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This one is right too. Hands and Perpetua are 1-A. And all of DC's history matters so every writer's cosmology.
 
Destroying several universes is far from enough to qualify for a 1-A rating. The statistics for the DC (and Marvel) Comics cosmic entities are largely fundamentally flawed and incoherent.
 
I don't even think trying to separate all the different cosmologies is a good idea, not only would it like force us to make several pages for the same characters based on who writes for them but it'll likely also create scaling pockets which will just let people pass walk more easily since they can claim "consistency" due to how we're limiting everyone

Does anyone want a Spider-man page that has him at 5-A due to scaling to Hulk since one dumb writer decided that Spider-Man hurting Hulk is okay?
 
Well, after reading several thousand of Marvel and DC comic book issues from when I was very small, I have an extremely strong impression of the sheer enormous contradiction and incoherence of these stories, so I am probably never going to change my mind in this regard.
 
Tllmbrg said:
I don't even think trying to separate all the different cosmologies is a good idea, not only would it like force us to make several pages for the same characters based on who writes for them but it'll likely also create scaling pockets which will just let people pass walk more easily since they can claim "consistency" due to how we're limiting everyone

Does anyone want a Spider-man page that has him at 5-A due to scaling to Hulk since one dumb writer decided that Spider-Man hurting Hulk is okay?
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Just a few different statistics systems based on writers for DC Comics and eras for Marvel really, and given that Perpetua is part of the Morrison cosmology, whereas Death of the Endless is a part of the Gaiman cosmology, for example, we likely wouldn't even need several statistics keys for the characters in the DC case.

It isn't that big of a deal in terms of organisation, but would save us many contradictions and headaches of the 1-A Superboy Prime and Low 1-A Lifebringer Galactus variety.

However, this is derailment, so I would appreciate if we could stop this discussion, and focus on the actual topics of this thread instead, to get something productive done here. Meaning, how to scale TBWL, Prime, and Manhattan.
 
Antvasima said:
Just a few different statistics systems based on writers for DC Comics and eras for Marvel really, and given that Perpetua is part of the Morrison cosmology, whereas Death of the Endless is a part of the Gaiman cosmology, for example, we likely wouldn't even need several statistics keys for the characters in the DC case.

It isn't that big of a deal in terms of organisation, but would save us many contradictions and headaches of the 1-A Superboy Prime and Low 1-A Lifebringer Galactus variety.

However, this is derailment, so I would appreciate if we could stop this discussion, and focus on the actual topics of this thread instead, to get something productive done here. Meaning, how to scale TBWL, Prime, and Manhattan.
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Low 1-C is fine for Prime's Retcon Punch, Dr Manhattan and TBWL.
 
Leaving aside how I doubt Ant has actually read several thousand individual comic issues, I think he is greatly overcomplicating things.
 
No, I actually have read that many stories over a very long time, which is the reason for why I find them to contradict each other so much from writer to writer and era to era, whether in terms of history/continuity, power levels, or characterisation.
 
Anyway, again, we need to return to strictly discussing the main relevant topics here.
 
Antvasima said:
Just a few different statistics systems based on writers for DC Comics and eras for Marvel really, and given that Perpetua is part of the Morrison cosmology, whereas Death of the Endless is a part of the Gaiman cosmology, for example, we likely wouldn't even need several statistics keys for the characters in the DC case.

It isn't that big of a deal in terms of organisation, but would save us many contradictions and headaches of the 1-A Superboy Prime and Low 1-A Lifebringer Galactus variety.

However, this is derailment, so I would appreciate if we could stop this discussion, and focus on the actual topics of this thread instead, to get something productive done here. Meaning, how to scale TBWL, Prime, and Manhattan.
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How would this new key of Super Boy Prime bring any headache and contradictions if this is his recent key? I really don’t understand, this is like a more powerful version of him being low 1-C is obviously but the 1-A feat doesn’t seem to Contradict
 
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Antvasima said:
What do you think that we should do here?
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I don't like it, but under our current system it would be a 1-A feat. Even if you dismiss it it'd still fall in the 1-B categ anyways with some of the larger lower dimensional realm statements
 
ok so. The versions of darkseid and anti monitor in death metal were stronger than the regular depictions. Like wise we are told entities that come from the dark multiverse are stronger than the regular ones in issue 7 of death metal. Prime could have just gotten stronger via his time in the dark multiverse.

I should also mention his recent anti feat in the shazam was pure PIS. he was weakened via magic, despite having a prior consistent history of having a massive resistance to magic.

In death metal, he destroys 3 whole crisis realities, possibly killed old god darkseid and true form anti monitor (who came back via world forge), bwl couldnt kill him, and the retcon punch at its full potency destroyed bwl
 
 
▪ Morrison's cosmology doesn't have any innumerable-dimensional structure. His cosmology is based on M-Theory and according to M-Theory spacetime is 11-dimensional, but Morrison's cosmology also have concepts like "plane-time" and "cube-time" so it should be 1-B. I have read literally every cosmology comic written by Morrison and i haven't found any innumerable-dimensional structure. "Innumerable dimensions" statement comes from DC Universe Presents #2 by Paul Jenkins. Also, Morrison's Multiverse can't be 1-A because Monitor Sphere (the highest level of his Multiverse) doesn't have any 1-A statements. Actually Allen Adam stated that the Monitor Sphere is a higher dimension.

▪ Snyder's cosmology isn't completely the same as Morrison's cosmology but it also doesn't have any innumerable-dimensional or 1-A structure.

If we'll use Morrison's cosmology for this feat then Superboy Prime's retcon punch can be low-end 1-B (at least 13-dimensional) at best, but i think firstly we should open a revision thread for DC cosmology.
 
LuciferDC099 said:
▪ Morrison's cosmology doesn't have any innumerable-dimensional structure. His cosmology is based on M-Theory and according to M-Theory spacetime is 11-dimensional, but Morrison's cosmology also have concepts like "plane-time" and "cube-time" so it should be 1-B. I have read literally every cosmology comic written by Morrison and i haven't found any innumerable-dimensional structure. "Innumerable dimensions" statement comes from DC Universe Presents #2 by Paul Jenkins. Also, Morrison's Multiverse can't be 1-A because Monitor Sphere (the highest level of his Multiverse) doesn't have any 1-A statements. Actually Allen Adam stated that the Monitor Sphere is a higher dimension.

▪ Snyder's cosmology isn't completely the same as Morrison's cosmology but it also doesn't have any innumerable-dimensional or 1-A structure.

If we'll use Morrison's cosmology for this feat then Superboy Prime's retcon punch can be low-end 1-B (at least 13-dimensional) at best, but i think firstly we should open a revision thread for DC cosmology.
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Maybe, but Snyder's cosmology is very similar to Morrison's. If there's any differences between both cosmologies, it shouldn't be that big (Not enough to become problematic). Snyder added the 6th Dimension, the Dark Multiverse/World Forge and so on. He also said that Fifth = Imagination and the Blood of the Multiverse.
 
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Elizio33 said:
Maybe, but Snyder's cosmology is very similar to Morrison's. If there's any differences between both cosmologies, it shouldn't be that big (Not enough to become problematic). Snyder added the 6th Dimension, the Dark Multiverse/World Forge and so on. He also said that Fifth = Imagination and the Blood of the Multiverse.
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I think the biggest difference between these cosmologies is the Fifth Dimension. In Morrison's cosmology Fifth Dimension is a 5-dimensional realm which exists in the Orrery but in Snyder's cosmology Fifth Dimension isn't 5-dimensional and it exists everywhere in the Multiverse. Yeah, other differences aren't that big.
Hasty12345 said:
I have read the whole thread and it appears the issue appears to be with quantifying the cosmology, perhaps it is worth doing a crt on the cosmology and come back to this thread?
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Yes, i agree.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
I know in JLA #31 the cosmology followed what you said, since banishment to the 8th dimension was a punishment for 5-D imps.
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Yes and in Action Comics (2011) #15 written by Morrison it was stated that the Fifth Dimension is a realm of magic which exists beyond length, width, depth and time. Morrison's first 5 dimensions are different than Snyder's dimensions.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
Countless
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When I checked the cosmology blog for references to higher dimensions by Grant Morrison, I only found references to 5, 8 and up to 28 levels.
  • JLA Vol 1 #13, December 1997 - Darkseid's emanation in the Rock of Ages timeline references the same 28 dimensions
  • The Multiversity: Pax Americana Vol 1 #1, January 2015 - Captain Adam observes an eight-dimensional Mobius loop when pondering the universe
  • The Multiversity Vol 1 #1, October 2014 - The House of Heroes rotates through 5D
Are we including other writers into the Morrison model?
 
I strongly agree with LDC099. The characters whose powers are based on the Morrison/Snyder cosmology should only be scaled from what they have established.

I would prefer if information about the Neil Gaiman and J.M. DeMatteis cosmologies could be gathered as well, before a content revision thread is made, but suppose that we might have to hurry things up in lack of better options.
 
Do we have a list of any of the writers that contribute reliably to each of the three cosmologies?

For example, which would John Byrne and his work with the New Gods fall under?
 
Firestorm808 said:
When I checked the cosmology blog for references to higher dimensions by Grant Morrison, I only found references to 5, 8 and up to 28 levels.
  • JLA Vol 1 #13, December 1997 - Darkseid's emanation in the Rock of Ages timeline references the same 28 dimensions
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I think these 28 dimensions are parallel dimensions because it's a reference to Jack Kirby's Fourth World #1 and in New Gods Vol 4 #15 it was stated that the Source Wall has 6-dimensional space, so Multiverse can't be 28-D because the wall which surrounds the entire Multiverse is 6-D. Jack Kirby's Fourth World #1 is continuation of New Gods Vol 4 #15 and both were written by John Byrne.
 
What did John Byrne establish during his New Gods run, other than the Godwave from the Source that created all of the pantheons? It has been a long time since I read those stories.
 
Iirc John Byrne's New Gods series was referenced only by Grant Morrison, but his cosmology contradicts Grant Morrison's cosmology. In New Gods Vol 4 #15 written by John Byrne it was stated that the Source Wall (i.e. the wall which surrounds the entire Multiverse) has 6-D space and it's contradictory with Morrison's M Theory-based cosmology. Other than that i don't remember any important info about the scale of cosmology.
 
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