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Superboy-Prime Upgrades - Also Spoilers Probably

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Just checked Manhattan's page, perpetua,and bwl

They don't canonically have any sort of true form or anything like that.

That narrative restriction only applies to the monitor Brothers
 
Cyberblader90 said:
Okay I reread a good chunk of Snyder's work recently.

I think with the profiles as they currently are including the current editing we are misinterpreting exactly how these characters should be established

Only the monitor Brothers seem to abide by a weakened State when they are within the material Realm.

Perpetua should just be treated as a full-powered state and a weekend state. Most of the time we see her in her weakend State including death metal.

I propose four keys roughly for Batman who laughs

He should have a key for his base state,a key for his new body which he requires in Death metal too and remains with that level of power up until the end of Death metal four.

a third key for when he gets the massive amount of crisis energy in Death metal four. And a final key starting for death metal six/seven, where he is getting a continuous amp from Earth prime in regards to crisis energy
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I 100% agree with this but this is for another thread.
 
I strongly disapprove of rating Perpetua and the related characters as 1-A within the multiverse, as it would create far too extreme inconsistencies.

If Perpetua, Doctor Manhattan, or TBWL were consistently of a 1-A scale, they should logically be able to blink the multiverse and all mortal opposition out of existence at any moment, and the 1-A rating in itself seems like an enormously unreliable exaggeration, but at least the two tiers significantly lessen the inconsistency problems. As such, I would appreciate if you all permanently avoid creating a thread to make our profile pages even more unreliable in this regard. Thank you.
 
Anyway, I will lock the profile pages in question.
 
I will keep your concerns in mind when making a thread. the current ones have misinformation regarding how they operate and that has to be addressed. They would only be "1-a" with sufficient crisis energy.

Batman who laughs and Wonder woman would only be that level in death metal issue 7, and neither wanted to destroy the multiverse in that issue.

The brothers most likely can be downgraded, since they struggled with a nerfed perpetua who is not 1-a

Perpetua would only be 1-a at full power, not nerfed. She was only at this level in the past before her sealing and briefly at the end of snyder's justice league run. She is nerfed in all of death metal and isnt 1-a.

as for manhattan, he didnt really want to destroy the multiverse per say, he just became obsessed with messing with it. he would only be 1-a with sufficient anti crsisis energy. He does have a feat for it, his collected energy buffed wonder woman to severely injure and nerf full power perpetua
 
if you find 1-a being inconsistent for them at full power, we can discuss downgrading that as well. main concern with that is batman who laughs at full power is repeatedly confirmed to be a threat to the hands, who potentially did a 1-a rewrite
 
just went through the brothers profile. By our current standards the only thing making them 1-a is being pieces of the over void, buts that what they were made from. they dont necessarily scale to that
 
1-a seems to mainly come from perpetua when she isnt nerfed. Only manhattan, peak bwl (issue 7 of death metal) and anti crisis amped wonder woman would scale. No one else besides manhattan
 
As far as I remember, the brothers stated outright that they are much weaker within the multiverse than outside of it (in their much larger states within the 6th dimension and the Overvoid), right before fighting Perpetua, and we have to stick with that interpretation for the moment until we are ready to launch our upcoming downgrade thread, in order to avoid massive inconsistencies, as the difference between Low 1-C and 1-A is not simply about being weakened from a usual power level, it is about a beyond uncountably infinite degrees of infinity times weaker or stronger.

As such, your intended revision would cause significant harm to this wiki if accepted, and I would likely be forced to close the thread, so I would much prefer if you avoid instigating unreliable statistics and resulting time-wasting drama. Thank you.
 
Cyberblader90 said:
if you find 1-a being inconsistent for them at full power, we can discuss downgrading that as well. main concern with that is batman who laughs at full power is repeatedly confirmed to be a threat to the hands, who potentially did a 1-a rewrite
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Yet, the Batman Who Laughs stated that if Diana continue to fight him, the Hands will come and will be stronger than BWL and Diana. Also, BWL intended to use the Multiverse he created as a weapon against the Hands according to the comics Dark Nights: Death Metal Legends of the Dark Knights. We don't even know if he could handle them without help/his Last 52 Multiverse.
 
Given the sheer enormous inconsistency of the DC Comics cosmic scaling, we are planning to separate it into being based on the cosmology of different prominent writers depending on what is most suitable. Hence, The Endless and the archangels will be based on the scale of the Gaiman/Carey Vertigo cosmology, Perpetua and the Monitors on the Morrison/Snyder regular DC Comics cosmology, and Pralaya and other DeMatteis characters on his cosmology.

Also, I tried to make improvements for the sake of clarity and consistency for Wonder Woman and the other characters. I would appreciate if others check if I made any mistakes.
 
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I've been told that in-universe manifestation of Perpetua defeated the true forms of the Monitor Brothers. Thus she'd be 1-A inside the multiverse as well. Not sure on her being weakened or whatever.

There's also Hypertime which seems to connect all the continuties and their cosmologies, meaning while the current cosmology could be downgraded, it won't really affect these characters such as True Form World Forger who forged Hypertime. This also makes sense considering Manhattan didn't affect things such as the Speed Force I think or else Wally wouldn't be around anymore.

Also Ant, even if Low 1-C they'd probably be able to blink away any opposition regardless so that doesn't really work as an argument. And while yes it seems that these characters are suddenly way more powerful than they are supposed to be... it seems that this is DC's goal here, make a crisis like never before, amp everyone with anti-crisis energy and make them do ridiculous stuff... Which isn't necessarily good story writing, but in need of tiering regardless.
 
The in-universe form of Perpetua fought the in-universe form of the merged Monitor brothers. That's it.

The issue is that different writers contradict each other in these areas, and Perpetua and company have never been portrayed at anywhere near a 1-A scale, and 6-dimensional hypertime does not make a difference in this regard. The stories they appear in also strictly refer to Morrison's cosmology.

And yes, going by the way that these characters have actually generally been portrayed within the stories in comparison to regular powerful superhumans, even Low 1-C is extremely generous, but a downgrade would at least significantly lessen the severity of the unreliability.
 
Antvasima said:
The in-universe form of Perpetua fought the in-universe form of the merged Monitor brothers. That's it.

The issue is that different writers contradict each other in these areas, and Perpetua and company have never been portrayed at anywhere near a 1-A scale, and 6-dimensional hypertime does not make a difference in this regard. The stories they appear in also strictly refer to Morrison's cosmology.

And yes, going by the way that these characters have actually generally been portrayed within the stories in comparison to regular powerful superhumans, even Low 1-C is extremely generous, but a downgrade would at least significantly lessen the severity of the unreliability.
Click to expand...
Hmm, I'll ask for more details then.

How do they contradict, Manhattan explicitly changed the meta-verse so a cosmological change is explained in-verse? I'm pretty sure Matt called the reset at the end a "blatant 1-A feat" so considering a reset at this level was necessary it does look like they were operating on a 1-A scale all along. Hypertime contains Post-Crisis and Pre-Crisis though, you see COIE and Wally's previous family in it.

I mean I'm pretty sure what you're implying would downgrade Anti-Monitor and everyone else having 2-A feats or higher to 4-B to be consistent with regular powerful superhumans...
 
The Manhattan storyline established that any changes to the past of the universe that is the center of the DC multiverse would automatically cause chain reaction feats of changing the entire multiverse. This was due to the narrative structure of the place, not a raw power feat. I also do not think that you seem to realise just how extremely high 1-A is in the power hierarchy. Hypertime doesn't come anywhere close.

Actually, I just think that their out of multiverse forms should scale to Morrison's High 1-C or low 1-B level cosmology, and that their in-universe forms seem to operate on a scale comparable to very powerful regular physical superhumans such as Superboy Prime, i.e. 2-C or so.
 
I am not arguing that it scales to Manhattan’s AP, just that retcons are explained in-verse but I do not think that the Sphere of the Gods for instance was affected by the retcon thus it and everything above it would keep it’s previous rating. I also never argued that Hypertime is 1-A (I could however due to arguing the Sphere of the Gods is 1-A, which even Fan could see the argument for), I said that it probably encompasses everything under the Speed Force from previous cosmologies thus the cosmology suddenly dropping in amount of higher dimensions doesn’t matter since the multiverse when it used to be High 1-B would still be a part of Hypertime. Granted this mostly relies (well for me at least) on the Sphere of the Gods being superior to the High 1-B structure back in Post-Crisis and as such this should be revised first.

Thus you propose downgrading the Anti-Monitor, unknown amount of sun dips Superman and TBWL’s to 2-C despite having explicit 2-A feats (at the very least)?
 
The In-universe Monitor Brothers have 2-A feats like destroying or creating infinite universes. The COIE feats still apply for Mobius since it was stated several times that he destroyed infinite universes. The Low-C rating for Perpetua, BWL, Death Metal Superboy-Prime directly scale to Dr Manhattan, Mxyzptlk openly admitted that Manhattan's power is far greater than his. Plus, Perpetua and BWL once messed with Hypertime which is Low 1-C according to Matthew. You me be right about Low-1-B/High 1-C.
 
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Xearsay said:
I keep reading all this talk about enormous inconsistencies but I've literally never seen a single mention of these inconsistencies that are so impactful that you need to separate the entire verse by writer.
Click to expand...
Apparently, it cause massive problems with the power scaling.
 
I mean sure when we’re talking about Superman’s speed and AP there’s gonna be massive inconsistencies. But cosmology itself? Despite it being really hard to keep track off it seems that the writers know what they are doing and they just in-verse retcon something to change cosmology. However, 1) they tend to keep the higher parts of the cosmology intact I think (New Gods and Monitors remembering past events as if they weren’t affected for instance) and 2) recently Hypertime seems like a way to jump between continuities and cosmologies which means everyone that affects Hypertime also affects the previous cosmologies. Other than that I’m fine with separating cosmologies between writers (since the 2 can co-exist).

Also it seems that no-one even damaged TBWL aside from Superboy-Prime (mister inconsistent himself, so putting someone on his tier to be consistent with him rather than the other way around is something we definitely shouldn’t do), amped Wonder Woman and Perpetua. So I don’t think this’ll lead to any inconsistencies regardless of the cosmology.
 
So what I'm hearing is I should probably wait regarding any restructuring of these characters until the downgrade thread is complete. That's fine with me.
 
Yes. We need to properly investigate the scaling for these characters before any further content revision threads.

The Monitor brothers are not generally portrayed at a 2-A scale. For example, The Anti-Monitor was one-shot by Superboy Prime during the Sinestro Corps War, but the Anti-Monitor after absorbing infinite universes certainly was. The World Forger likely created the Dark Multiverse in the 6th Dimension/his true state though, so scaling their in-universe forms from that feat seems suspicious.

I have been told that Hypertime is 6-dimensional, but that is not remotely the same as the so-called 6th Dimension that Scott Snyder introduced.
 
Should we downgrade the in-universe "At least Low 1-C" statistics to 2-A, or would it be too early and hasty?
 
Antvasima said:
Yes. We need to properly investigate the scaling for these characters before any further content revision threads.

The Monitor brothers are not generally portrayed at a 2-A scale. For example, The Anti-Monitor was one-shot by Superboy Prime during the Sinestro Corps War, but the Anti-Monitor after absorbing infinite universes certainly was. The World Forger likely created the Dark Multiverse in the 6th Dimension/his true state though, so scaling their in-universe forms from that feat seems suspicious.

I have been told that Hypertime is 6-dimensional, but that is not remotely the same as the so-called 6th Dimension that Scott Snyder introduced.
Click to expand...
The Anti-Monitor was weakened during the Sinestro Corp War. Just before Superboy-Prime one shot him (off-guard), Mobius was hit by a galaxy-level explosion. Mobius was able to create a wave of antimatter that destroyed infinite universes. In-universe Alpheus and Mar Novu scale to Mobius. Alpheus didn't created the Dark Multiverse, it was the result of Barbatos stopping doing his job.
 
Antvasima said:
Should we downgrade the in-universe "At least Low 1-C" statistics to 2-A, or would it be too early and hasty?
Click to expand...
No because they have Low 1-C feats like messing with Hypertime, being powered with Manhattan's power and so on. 2-A is fine for the Monitor Brothers unless that we make a variable tier for them.
 
Anti-Monitor fought Monitor who was amped by infinite universes thousands of years before COIE. Yeah their in-universe forms probably shouldn't scale to Hypertime (well at least not individually, Perpetua broke Hypertime while weakened so Ultra Monitor should scale to that), my argument was that downgrading amped Wonder Woman and TBWL to 2-C would downgrade Perpetua to 2-C and thus downgrade the Ultra Monitor who is explictly stronger than full power Anti-Monitor to 2-C, thus creating an inconsistency.

No idea where 6D Hypertime comes from.

Considering you'd have to downgrade the New Gods and Mr. Mxyzptlk to 2-A (which probably doesn't work) as well if you downgrade the in-universe manifestations of these characters it does seem too hasty.
 
Didn't the AM have to use machinery to destroy all of those universes? Also, The Monitor being empowered by the positive matter universes does not automatically translate to containing all of their power.

Anyway, perhaps we should close this thread, unless there is more to do here?
 
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