Super Smash Bros scaling changes and intelligence upgrades

[koopa3144]

Cause Smash tiers are uncertain right now, I'll avoid talking about any specific tiers.

Tabuu scaling
The Fighters and those who can harm them should have a "likely" scaling to Tabuu. Sonic can harm Tabuu and damage his wings, and the fighters are able to harm and defeat Tabuu in the final battle. Master Hand also survived an attack from Tabuu, although he was knocked out. It has also been suggested that Brawl fighters have a Pre-The Great Maze and a Post-The Great Maze key.

Agree: @Psychomaster35 @The_2nd_Existential_Seed @DarkDragonMedeus @ShockingPsychic
Disagree: @Keeweed
Neutral:

Galeem/Dharkon scaling
I think it's fair to scale the fighters using Legendary Spirits to Galeem and Dharkon. Both Galeem and Dharkon's Spirits have a base power of 5456 and a max power of 13640, Iirc this makes them the naturally strongest primary Spirits in the game. However, the gap between them and other Legendary Spirits isn't very large and Galeem and Dharkon can even be surpassed in power with the help of support Spirits.

Agree: @Psychomaster35 @DarkDragonMedeus @ShockingPsychic
Disagree: @Keeweed @The_2nd_Existential_Seed @Lonkitt
Neutral:

Above Average likely Gifted Intelligence
All fighters and comparable should have Above Average likely Gifted Intelligence. I'll copy what I put for Marios profile ([character name] is a very skilled fighter who can use many different weapons and items in combat. Can fight 100 Mii fighters in 100-Man mode. Can hold off an endless wave of other fighters in All Star mode. Likely comparable to Mr. Game & Watch)

Agree: @DarkDragonMedeus @Lonkitt @ShockingPsychic
Disagree:
Neutral:

I'll also note that @SamanPatou has suggested that Galeem/Dharkon and Tabbu tier be changed to "At least Whatever the Smashers are, much higher/up to 3-A via special attacks"

Agree: @Keeweed @Lonkitt @thetechmaster36 @Psychomaster35
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[Psychomaster35]

I’ve been waiting for this to be revived again! As usual, I agree that the fighters should scale to the final bosses. It always confused me why they never did scale to them despite how this is something everyone can do and that they were meant to have canonically beaten them at the end.

Do note that their High 7-A rating was meant to be replaced a long time ago since comparing its speed to Pikachu’s lightning has been rejected, so I would opt that they’d be solidly 4-A scaling off of Tabuu pre-Ultimate.

 

[Keeweed]

I still disagree with both the smashers scaling to either Tabuu or Galeem. But I’m going to be busy this weekend so I’ll be back Monday. Though I especially disagree immensely with anyone scaling to Galeem for the same reasons I said in the last thread. Galeem literally, unironically, kills everyone in the entire universe in a single hit. This happens both at the beginning and end of the game. In what world would anyone scale to someone when he literally one shots everyone in the entire verse combined. Every single thread it’s always, ‘but they have spirits’.

Galeem is literally the reason spirits are a thing. Spirits are the people Galeem one shot. The smashers don’t have all the spirits, meanwhile Galeem one shot all the people combined that were the spirits.

So smashers and spirits + universe = one shot by Galeem, but somehow smashers + some spirits are supposed to be on par with him. That doesn’t make any sense.

Also there is literally someone on par with him, Dharkon, and both him and Dharkon are trying to kill each other 24/7, while the smashers are stealing their spirits thus causing their power to flux all over the place. I find it way more likely Galeem and Dharkon just accidentally kill each other, rather than the smashers being able to win despite how completely illogical it is.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Tabuu: We should treat them scaling to Tabuu in the same way we treat people in JRPGs progressively eventually scaling to the Final Boss. In other words, I agree with Tabuu, because we have literal evidence they can at least somewhat hang with Tabuu, Master Hand, and comparable Bosses.

Galeem: Galeem is where I agree with Keaweed on. They get oneshot at the beginning, then in both endings involving Galeem or Dharkon they get obliterated even with the spirits they amassed which would've weakened Galeem or Dharkon with nothing implying they were able to even somewhat resist it.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Also there is literally someone on par with him, Dharkon, and both him and Dharkon are trying to kill each other 24/7, while the smashers are stealing their spirits thus causing their power to flux all over the place. I find it way more likely Galeem and Dharkon just accidentally kill each other, rather than the smashers being able to win despite how completely illogical it is.

Except... you are actually meant to drain both of their health bars down to defeat them in the final fight? And again, I don’t really buy the 2 bad endings as canon. The defeat of both of them was the result of a group effort with all of the spirits they rescued enhancing their stats.

The least you could get with scaling them is “3-A with Spirits”

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with the upgrades.

 

[koopa3144]

I have updated the OP with everyone's stances so far. I'm also guessing that this CRT will need the approval of three or four staff members before changes can be made.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Bump

Also, you forgot to put me up as agreeing with the CRT

 

[Psychomaster35]

Bump

Forgot to mention this, but I also agree with the intelligence upgrades.

 

[Lonkitt]

I know exactly why Psychomaster called me here. He just won't say it

Personally as somebody who has become semi-obsessed with skill feats, I feel like there's a good portion of character specific feats that can be added to these profiles regarding skill. But until then, having what you wrote down isn't bad at all. Intelligence is good

Regarding Tabuu, I agree with 2nd's opinion. Maybe for somebody like Mario, his key could be the following:

Key: Pre-The Great Maze | Post-The Great Maze

This would also be more consistent for Galeem, given he one-shotted Tabuu amongst the many Spirits that were killed

I admittedly feel a bit shaky on scaling to Galeem. While only doing so via Spirits is much more logical than them doing so in base, Keeweed does bring up a very valid point. Unlike The Great Maze, it feels less likely that the characters got stronger over time along with the Spirits, since Galeem and Dharkon were facing each other and there's the fact that were have two endings were the entire cast still gets this asses beat again


So overall, I'm good with the intelligence, good with Tabuu scaling if keys are involved, and I'm against Galeem scaling

 

[koopa3144]

So overall, I'm good with the intelligence, good with Tabuu scaling if keys are involved, and I'm against Galeem scaling

I have added your opinions and the idea of a key split to the OP.

 

[Psychomaster35]

But then that begs the question: how do we scale the fighters pre-Great Maze? Final Smashes?

 

[Lonkitt]

But then that begs the question: how do we scale the fighters pre-Great Maze? Final Smashes?

In my opinion? Final Smashes, Trophy Statements, Subspace Cutscenes

NGL I'd love to do a deep dive for this if I wasn't already torso deep into another crossover fighting game verse on the wiki

 

[ShockingPsychic]

The fighters can fight Galeem without the use of Spirits, though I suppose the narrative greatly implies that they use Spirits throughout the fight. Given that the fight can't be avoided, and is apart of the main story, I agree with scaling to Galeem with Spirits. Agreed with everything else

So Mario (for example) would have essentially three keys, from the looks of things

Pre-Great Maze (Covers all of Subspace and other modes, such as Classic, Final Smashes, and Trophies) would be At least High 7-A, higher with Final Smash

Post-Great Maze (Covers everything from the Tabuu fight to World of Light) would be 4-A via scaling to Tabuu

With Spirits (World of Light endgame) would be 3-A via scaling to Galeem

What about characters that didn't appear in Subspace though? Like Pichu, Y. Link, Wii-Fit, Duck Hunt, etc? Would they get a "Base" 7-A/4-A key and a 3-A key with spirits?

 

[Lonkitt]

The fighters can fight Galeem without the use of Spirits, though I suppose the narrative greatly implies that they use Spirits throughout the fight. Given that the fight can't be avoided, and is apart of the main story, I agree with scaling to Galeem with Spirits. Agreed with everything else

So Mario (for example) would have essentially three keys, from the looks of things

Pre-Great Maze (Covers all of Subspace and other modes, such as Classic, Final Smashes, and Trophies) would be At least High 7-A, higher with Final Smash

Post-Great Maze (Covers everything from the Tabuu fight to World of Light) would be 4-A via scaling to Tabuu

With Spirits (World of Light endgame) would be 3-A via scaling to Galeem

What about characters that didn't appear in Subspace though? Like Pichu, Y. Link, Wii-Fit, Duck Hunt, etc? Would they get a "Base" 7-A/4-A key and a 3-A key with spirits?

I'd like to note that if Galeem scaling did get accepted, then I think that should get its own key just as Shocking is suggesting

 

[SamanPatou]

As said, the 7-A tier should have been removed long time ago, but the interest for the verse just fell into oblivion.

As also said in the past too, Tabuu has no reason to be 4-A, this tier is just an outdated standard from almost a decade ago, and nowadays it fails to meet almost all the requirements dictated by out Stabilization Feats Rules.

Anyway, I'm also going to present my all-personal, all-new, fresh position regarding Tabuu, Galem and Dharkon's strength, which has also been the only solution to me: Not scale them to their maximum output.

To be specific, Tabuu oneshots everyone through the annihilation wave of his wings, whether it is hax or AP, it doesn't matter. He's shown stomping Master Hand and Ganondorf without them, but this just proves that his base is much stronger than them individually, but not outright invincible.
We already know the characters are somewhat comparable to Master Hand, as he sees them as worthy foes (mentioned in some of his trophies) and the fact they are confident in taking at the very least of his clones head-on at the beginning of World of Light (throw him being a recurring final boss for support).

The way I see it, Tabuu can destroy anyone with his wings and waves (which still oneshot you the times he pulls the off in his battle), but it's not out of the realm of possibilites for 39+ characters to eventually take him down while fighting all together.

Same goes for Galeem and Dharkon, I personally tend to consider their universe-busting attacks as separate from their standard output of power. I know that the bad endings show them both not needing to charge the attack (unlike Galeem did at the beginning of the story), but I see no other reasonable option.
Galeem's light beams are clearly transmutation hax, which then span omnidirectionally, similarly to Dharkon's waves of darkness (which are onyl briefly shown in his ending).

So, I tend to put them in a similar position to Tabuu's, unquantifiably stronger than the Smashers taken singularly, but not impervious to 80-ish empowered people coming at them and exploiting the fact the two were already murdering each other.

So, my final tally would be "At least Whatever the Smashers are, much higher/up to 3-A via special attacks (or whatever you wanna call them)"

 

[koopa3144]

The fighters can fight Galeem without the use of Spirits, though I suppose the narrative greatly implies that they use Spirits throughout the fight. Given that the fight can't be avoided, and is apart of the main story, I agree with scaling to Galeem with Spirits. Agreed with everything else

Added your opinion to OP.

So, my final tally would be "At least Whatever the Smashers are, much higher/up to 3-A via special attacks (or whatever you wanna call them)"

I'll add this to OP.

 

[Keeweed]

Honestly I like SamanPatou suggestion best. Galeem did need to charge up with master hands at the beginning of the game (or that may have been from the trailer, I’ll recheck soon), and charged up at the end of the game to do his universe crush. Plus that’s when he still had spirits, when you actually fight him, you have already stolen both his and Dharkon’s spirits.

However, assuming they stay straight 3-A:

It doesn’t matter if the smashers need to fight him, Hp is a gameplay mechanic. We have no clue if they actually canonically do anything in the fight (assuming they are actually there but I’ll get to that), meanwhile Galeem and Dharkon are both there and are actively trying to kill each other. We know they are on par with each other, we know their power has been severely mess with, and we know the smashers have been making them extra angry. I find it much more likely that while enraged and having their powers messed with Galeem and Dharkon killed each other in the rage induced confusion rather than the smashers actually needing to do anything.

Also, again, Dharkon and Galeem were weakened before the fight even began. You stole their spirits shifting their power. We have no clue how strong they actually are during the fight itself because you stole all their stuff.

Finally, I don’t even think the smashers were actually even there in canon. Every other ending showcases the smashers being at the cliff, miles away from both Galeem and Dharkon. The pre battle cutscene also as has them on the cliff, miles away. I don’t think you fight Galeem or Dharkon in canon, the smashers just stole their spirits while Galeem and Dharkon battled on (which is what is shown pre and post fight in the cutscenes. The smashers are miles away doing stuff on the cliff while Galeem and Dharkon fight).

 

[Lonkitt]

Tabuu’s waves being a stronger attack than his base would be consistent based on what we’ve seen. Same with Galeem’s light attacks. I think this is the best way to go

 

[Psychomaster35]

So, my final tally would be "At least Whatever the Smashers are, much higher/up to 3-A via special attacks (or whatever you wanna call them)"

I’m pretty sure they are withstanding of their own attacks given they were omnidirectional.

 

[Keeweed]

An omnidirectional attack doesn’t need to hit yourself. It’s like saying a flash light hits itself with its own light when it shines. His attack is radiating off him, it’s leaving his body, and he can specifically control its direction, no reason for it to be hitting himself.

 

[Psychomaster35]

If I’m charging some energy laser, I’m pretty sure my body would need to withstand the energy of the impact/recoil from the attack, otherwise I turn into ash upon using it.

 

[Keeweed]

I can think of plenty of times in fiction when someone charges up energy into themselves specifically to do an attack that is hilariously better than themselves (Boros from OPM immediately comes to mind, but there are a crap ton of different examples).

 

[Lonkitt]

If I’m charging some energy laser, I’m pretty sure my body would need to withstand the energy of the impact/recoil from the attack, otherwise I turn into ash upon using it.

I can be case by case, kinda depends

 

[Bobsican]

However, assuming they stay straight 3-A:

It doesn’t matter if the smashers need to fight him, Hp is a gameplay mechanic. We have no clue if they actually canonically do anything in the fight (assuming they are actually there but I’ll get to that), meanwhile Galeem and Dharkon are both there and are actively trying to kill each other. We know they are on par with each other, we know their power has been severely mess with, and we know the smashers have been making them extra angry. I find it much more likely that while enraged and having their powers messed with Galeem and Dharkon killed each other in the rage induced confusion rather than the smashers actually needing to do anything.

Also, again, Dharkon and Galeem were weakened before the fight even began. You stole their spirits shifting their power. We have no clue how strong they actually are during the fight itself because you stole all their stuff.

Finally, I don’t even think the smashers were actually even there in canon. Every other ending showcases the smashers being at the cliff, miles away from both Galeem and Dharkon. The pre battle cutscene also as has them on the cliff, miles away. I don’t think you fight Galeem or Dharkon in canon, the smashers just stole their spirits while Galeem and Dharkon battled on (which is what is shown pre and post fight in the cutscenes. The smashers are miles away doing stuff on the cliff while Galeem and Dharkon fight).

HP may be a game mechanic to barely represent "health", but at the same time the fact it's a required event to complete the game in itself shows the intent of that happening and thus being a canonical event, this line of logic would dismiss any storytelling from gameplay as game mechanics, which is frankly ridiculous as much gameplay in itself can tell plot, ludonarrative dissonance isn't the default thing to assume for our purposes.

Neither Galeem or Dharkon are portrayed as weakened when the fight begins in relation to when the plot began, so that's quite irrelevant, especially when by default we consider that characters don't hold back for our purposes.

If you played the game you'd know it's because there's plenty of enemies in the way to even get to Galeem or Dharkon, and more importantly restoring the possessed fighters back to normal and joining Kirby to save the world.

 

[Keeweed]

What do you mean, “they aren’t portrayed as weakened.”

When you steal their spirits their powers are literally shown to shift. Galeem’s light, or Dharkon’s darkness, over takes the other one’s as that one loses power. Their powers are fluxing. We have no clue how strong they actually are by the time you fight them.

The cutscenes showcase, both before and after, that the smashers aren’t anywhere near Galeem and Dharkon. Along with Galeem and Dharkon stomping everyone. I would consider the battle gameplay mechanics when the creators of the game, show me, in canon cutscenes, that nobody is actually close to Galeem and Dharkon at all and those two are the ones that are actually fighting each other.

Plus, again, we have no clue if the smashers actually really do any damage or if Galeem and Dharkon are doing all the work. They are specifically on par with each other and are trying to kill each other. Meanwhile they crap on everyone else in every cutscene they are shown to fight.

 

[SamanPatou]

I’m pretty sure they are withstanding of their own attacks given they were omnidirectional.

Not really, they are magic waves/beams that spread out of their bodies, there's no reason to believe they need to withstand their force.

If I’m charging some energy laser, I’m pretty sure my body would need to withstand the energy of the impact/recoil from the attack, otherwise I turn into ash upon using it.

Actually not, especially when talking about magic, fictional machinery and other supernatural abilities.
There's a rule written somewhere about this, like a futuristic gun having, for example, 4-A AP but not Dura.


To re-affirm my point, I find much more believable for those three to have a bunch of attacks that are Smashers-level++, and then a particularly powerful attack.
And tbh, Galeem's attack (and supposedly Dharkon's) could very well be 3-A via Hax, since it consists of hundreds of Transmuting tendrils which turn into a wave that alters reality on a universal-scale.
The reason why the Smashers are on the cliff or why Galeem and Dharkon don't just shoot out their best attacks is just PIS, pretty much like why doesn't Galeem move to stomp the party once it notices them taking action at the beginning of the game.

 

[Keeweed]

What does the smashers being on the cliff have to do with stupidity (plot induced stupidity, PIS, is when a character acts stupid for the plot; the characters actual locations isn’t stupidity)? That’s where the smashers are. That’s where the animators put them. How can I argue the smashers actually fought Galeem and Dharkon when the creators of the game constantly show them being nowhere near them.

 

[thetechmaster36]

How can I argue the smashers actually fought Galeem and Dharkon when the creators of the game constantly show them being nowhere near them.

In the same manner that I can ask how did they not fight Galeem and Dharkon, frankly. Let's take the cutscene where you first defeat Galeem; it's up in the air, with no visible ground anywhere, and yet we're supposed to somehow argue that the characters just. . .didn't fight it? The captions in the cutscene literally say, "With Galeem, the lord of light, defeated, darkness takes hold." Nothing that says any external force was at work, or better yet, nothing that says Dharkon was doing anything.

You could apply the same logic here, frankly; both Galeem and Dharkon displayed as being far away from visible ground, yet, they're both defeated at the same time, meaning that the characters had to have fought them somehow.

 

[Bobsican]

What do you mean, “they aren’t portrayed as weakened.”

A potential argument that could also arise, I just felt like covering that as well just in case.

When you steal their spirits their powers are literally shown to shift. Galeem’s light, or Dharkon’s darkness, over takes the other one’s as that one loses power. Their powers are fluxing. We have no clue how strong they actually are by the time you fight them.

If we assume they drop entire tiers by being weakened, that'd in itself be even more proof that the fighters should scale (or even upscale) by having more of the resource they're amping themselves with (spirits), otherwise it'd still be fine to scale them either way.

The cutscenes showcase, both before and after, that the smashers aren’t anywhere near Galeem and Dharkon. Along with Galeem and Dharkon stomping everyone. I would consider the battle gameplay mechanics when the creators of the game, show me, in canon cutscenes, that nobody is actually close to Galeem and Dharkon at all and those two are the ones that are actually fighting each other.

Keep in mind this "stomp" was with hax, not with physical stats, and so it wouldn't make them fighting Galeem/Dharkon an outlier, Galeem and Dharkon are also quite big, a bit of distance especially considering that most characters in the roster can't fly is a fair claim, more assumptions are required to come up with a narrative where Galeem and Dharkon finish off each other and the fighters have no impact whatsoever, which is even more counterintuitive when considering the whole deal with the spirits as said before.

Plus, again, we have no clue if the smashers actually really do any damage or if Galeem and Dharkon are doing all the work. They are specifically on par with each other and are trying to kill each other. Meanwhile they crap on everyone else in every cutscene they are shown to fight.

The first one is hax, and was at the start of the game too, so it'd be questionable to scale them like that from the start when Galeem is already portrayed as quite above the likes of Master Hand. The two bad endings also show the potential of the fighters to defeat Galeem or Dharkon, as the other just takes over if the conflicting other is defeated, and that's where the true ending comes in where the fighters bother defeating both at once, and it'd be quite assumptive to claim that Galeem and Dharkon just finished off each other at the same time when this isn't showcased to be the case, especially when fights rarely go like that to begin with.

And so it's clear the fighters had a impact to the plot between Galeem and Dharkon, down to even clearly upscaling by having the spirits they used to amp themselves, with a single one being sufficient for one to body the other.

 

[Keeweed]

When you fought Dharkon and Galeem earlier not only do you do nothing to them (as they just go back to fighting each other like nothing happened), you also had to weakened them first to even start those fights to. You had to steal their spirits (which is shown to weaken them as it weakened Galeem’s forcefield and forced Dharkon to come out to fight). Even when you weakened them and fight them, it achieved nothing and they just don’t care about you. In the final cutscene they just glance over at you, don’t acknowledge you further, and go back to fighting each other. Then completely stomp you into the floor if you don’t steal all their power.

In the final cutscenes Galeem and Dharkon are hilariously further away, and much higher into the air. The smashers are literal dots from Galeem and Dharkon’s perspective’s because of how hilariously far away they are. Then in the cutscenes in the end, unlike the mid game which keeps the characters locations vague, they specifically show the characters being exactly where they were shown to be before. Miles away, on the cliff.


The spirits can’t be used to scale the smashers to Dharkon and Galeem, because with their spirits the other one still one shots you horribly. Yet when Galeem and Dharkon have their spirits they are fighting with each other. Galeem and Dharkon with spirits are shown to scale to each other. The smashers are specifically stomped into the floor when they try to use their spirits.

I mention Galeem the most because I just like him better. But Dharkon’s attack isn’t rated as hax currently and it also kills everyone.

 

[thetechmaster36]

You had to steal their spirits (which is shown to weaken them as it weakened Galeem’s forcefield and forced Dharkon to come out to fight).

1. Weakening one's protection and weakening the person using the protection are two completely different things. I can weaken and/or destroy a shield that a person is using to fight me with, but does that inherently mean I'm weakening the person? No, I'm not making them physically inferior, I'm simply making them more vulnerable to attacks. Unless you mean "weaken" to be "make more vulnerable" in this context, then sure, but you're not making them physically inferior by destroying their protection.
2. What does Dharkon coming out to fight have anything to do with you weakening it? I honestly don't see the correlation, and your evidence of you defeating and stealing their Spirits "weakening" them is honestly pretty weak.

Even when you weakened them and fight them, it achieved nothing and they just don’t care about you. In the final cutscene they just glance over at you, don’t acknowledge you further, and go back to fighting each other. Then completely stomp you into the floor if you don’t steal all their power.

Again, where is the evidence that you are weakening them? Why wouldn't this just be a case of the characters growing strong enough to fight them? It's not like Galeem or Dharkon are explicitly sharing their power with the Spirits - and would therefore mean that the Spirits being defeated means a loss is power - so as far as I'm concerned, there's no evidence of such weakening happening.

And secondly, I'm not sure I understand by your point of them "completely stomping you into the floor" and what you're referring to when you say that. Do you mean the bad endings or something?

 

[Keeweed]

In the final section of the game, when you steal their spirits, the other begins to overpower the one losing its spirits. Dharkon’s darkness overtakes Galeem’s light and Vice versa as your steal their spirits.

The shield is powered by Galeem himself. It isn’t produced by an external source.

Dharkon only came out to fight once you steal all the important spirits in the area. Directly afterwards he stops caring about you, leaves, and goes on to fight directly on par with Galeem. With both him and Galeem viewing you as completely insignificant to their current goals.

 

[thetechmaster36]

In the final section of the game, when you steal their spirits, the other begins to overpower the one losing its spirits. Dharkon’s darkness overtakes Galeem’s light and Vice versa as your steal their spirits.

Because one has more influence over the other with the larger quantity of spirits under their belt; that's not to say it's related to power of the two entities themselves, though. Strength in numbers is a thing; it's the same reason why the balance can shift back to one side or the other depending on which spirits you take out in the order you choose. But again. . .what is to say that this is a case of you weakening them and not just the characters getting stronger?

The shield is powered by Galeem himself. It isn’t produced by an external source.

And I never implied it was anything but that. My point was that a form of protection being destroyed does not inherently mean that the user is weakened as a result, you'd need proof of that.

Dharkon only came out to fight once you steal all the important spirits in the area.

And? What does that say about Dharkon losing strength though? You're assuming that Dharkon is showing itself because you defeated and stole the Spirits because it was weakened with no evidence to suggest that.

Directly afterwards he stops caring about you, leaves, and goes on to fight directly on par with Galeem.

Dharkon leaves because you just beat its ass; do you think it's just going to stay there and let itself be destroyed further after you had just already beaten it? Of course not, it's gonna run away because it doesn't want to die, it's not that difficult to necessarily understand that. It fighting on par with Galeem means little considering you had beaten Galeem already, and then went on to beat Dharkon, meaning both of them would be on equal footing by this point since both of them had their asses kicked in the fights prior.

 

[Keeweed]

If they have more spirits, then how can we say the amount you took would be enough to say you’re on par with them. As we see, the attack that actually makes them 3-A still murders everyone in the entire verse deader than dead when you have their spirits.

I’m saying Dharkon is losing strength because of the end of the game. The end of the game very clearly shows us that Dharkon and Galeem are losing their strength when you steal their spirits because the one that doesn’t get a spirit stolen begins to overpower the other and can easily kill them in the endings.

If Dharkon got his ass kicked, why would he immediately go on to fight the person who is directly on par with him. Galeem had plenty of time to rest, Dharkon fights you 2 seconds earlier. How would he proceed to fight on par with him with no effort. Why would he be able to effortlessly kill literally everyone combined as shown in his ending. Why do both Galeem and Dharkon give literal no crap about your existence when you get to the final area. They saw the smashers, literally didn’t care at all, and went back to fighting.

Dharkon and Galeem don’t care about the smashers at all, and consistently murder literally all of them by doing anything once they actually do care.

 

[thetechmaster36]

If they have more spirits, then how can we say the amount you took would be enough to say you’re on par with them.

I'm not saying that any one character would be on par with Galeem or Dharkon, but the fact that they can fight, damage, and then eventually defeat both of them in two separate battles, and then at the same time in the final battle, means that they scale at least somewhat.

As we see, the attack that actually makes them 3-A still murders everyone in the entire verse deader than dead when you have their spirits.

Because that's. . .hax. That's not AP. That's hax. 3-A fighters or not, they're dead because it's hax that they don't resist, and not a physical force assailing them. You don't them being smacked around by Galeem or Dharkon in the respective endings, they become overwhelmed by the same light from the beginning of the game in Galeem's ending, which is hax, and overwhelmed by darkness in Dharkon's ending, which kills them without any visible effect to their bodies, which itself appears to be hax even if the profile doesn't reflect this.

I’m saying Dharkon is losing strength because of the end of the game. The end of the game very clearly shows us that Dharkon and Galeem are losing their strength when you steal their spirits because the one that doesn’t get a spirit stolen begins to overpower the other and can easily kill them in the endings.

Except there is nothing saying that the Spirits are directly tied to their power. Nor is there anything that implies it; by stealing the Spirits, you off-set the balance of strength in numbers, hence the endings. But let's not forget that they easily kill each other because you personally went and beat them, as seen in the beginning of the respective endings, meaning they were already given a brutal beatdown and just finished off by the other at the end.

If Dharkon got his ass kicked, why would he immediately go on to fight the person who is directly on par with him.

Because it's trying to spread darkness everywhere and overpower the light of Galeem?

How would he proceed to fight on par with him with no effort. Why would he be able to effortlessly kill literally everyone combined as shown in his ending. Why do both Galeem and Dharkon give literal no crap about your existence when you get to the final area.

There's a little thing called PIS; why do you think Galeem doesn't just capture Kirby when he lands back on the planet after having escaped the first time? Why does Galeem just sit there and let Kirby begin to free everyone, eventually leading to a domino effect of others being freed, and then only face you when its forcefield has been taken down?

It's PIS, PIS, PIS. That's it.

Dharkon and Galeem don’t care about the smashers at all, and consistently murder literally all of them by doing anything once they actually do care.

Because by the point that they do end up killing everyone, they had achieved their goal by then, either by overwhelming everyone with light, or consuming them with darkness.

 

[thetechmaster36]

Actually, remembering it now, you can get either of the two entity endings without leaving a single Spirit left on the map, it all just depends on whether you fight Galeem or Dharkon. Meaning Spirits don't even tie into either of the endings nor do they have influence on their power.

 

[Keeweed]

Sorry for not responding earlier, I’m busy and going to stay busy. But the spirits absolutely have to do with their power. Their power is straight shown to flux when you take the spirits. It’s the most obvious example of a character having their power stolen possible. When you steal the spirits Galeem and Dharkon begin to overtake each other. When one of them loses their spirits, the other kills them. The light and darkness literally flux when you take a spirit.

 

[thetechmaster36]

Take your time, this thread won't be going anywhere, so it's fine.

But to address your argument, I'm going to say it again: there is such thing as strength in numbers. On top of that, the number of Spirits left on the map matters little. You could have numerous Light Spirits left and it still wouldn't matter because it only accounts for the entities themselves being defeated. This is the same thing we saw with Dharkon's reveal; it only came out after Galeem itself was defeated. If this was as impactful as you say it is, Dharkon would have come out much sooner than just immediately after Galeem's defeat.

 

[SamanPatou]

Guys, I think we're kinda missing the point.

At least according to my opinion, this wouldn't even be a problem, because the bosses would simply upscale from the Smashers for their base rating, so wheter or not the Smasher gave a minor or major contribution in taking Galemm/Dharkon down isn't much of an issue. I'd say they are still supposed to be able to fight and damage them to an extent, even just by combining their numbers, but the bossess still remaing superior to them individually.

I mention Galeem the most because I just like him better. But Dharkon’s attack isn’t rated as hax currently and it also kills everyone.

I'd say it's implied to be hax, it's a huge wave of darkness that engulfs the world and causes the Smashers to die/faint for reasons different from physical force, pretty much the same Galeem down, but with darkness instead of light.