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Steven Universe CRT Thing Part 2

Goodyfresh said:
We still can't use the Mines/Turrets for Peri's AP since they are a combo-attack. Were there any times when she used them without Pearl's help?
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Yes (Although it did seem like it took her longer to build them without Pearl)
 
Adem Warlock69 said:
Don't those turrets do less damage than Pearl's attack, wouldn't that mean they're 7-A and not 7-A+?
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Indeed, they're smaller and do less. So I will edit Peri's profile appropriately. Can someone else do the Attack Reflection edit for Garnet as I'm not sure how exactly it works and should be described under her abilities?

Although. . . .should she really be getting that ability anyway when it was never shown in the actual series, only the game, even though reflecting attacks is clearly something she would have used in fights if she were capable of it? I can actually say the same about some of the other abilities we are adding from the game!!! Stuff like Sunstone's fire-manip seems fine since Sunstone is literally made of fire. But can Peridot REALLY build cannons? If she could, wouldn't she have done so against Blue and Yellow? You guys see what I'm saying? We are giving these characters all these new weird abilities, some of them even being hax (morality-manipulation for Garnet?????) from the game, when the game is SECONDARY CANON and those things were likely added for gameplay-purposes without Rebecca Sugar's input. They are abilities the characters would have used during fights in-series if they really could do them (why the heck would Garnet NOT reflect attacks and manipulate enemy mindsets, and why oh WHY would Peridot just use her metal-powers to throw a bunch of tin-cans at the Diamonds if she could have built a Tier 7-A cannon), and remember that SECONDARY CANON is true UNLESS CONTRADICTED by main canon, which in this case. . . .is kinda seems like it is?

TL;DR: We need to have a discussion about whether all these weird new abilities from the game should really be added to character-profiles considering that they never exhibited these abilities, DESPITE THEM BEING VERY USEFUL, in the primary-canon. That doesn't mean the primary-canon DIRECTLY contradicts those secondary-canon aspects from the game, but it seems like a strong argument that it does contradict those abilities being real and indicate they are just an element of gameplay. And yes I know this is a terrible time to bring this up when everthing is about to get locked-down! I just wanted to raise this as something for us to think about once things start back up again. I think that maybe we've been overenthusiastic to add the abilities from the game, even when they don't necessarily make sense.
 
What is left to do here in summary? Given our forum move, no posts from now on will be backed up and migrated to the new forum.
 
Antvasima said:
What is left to do here in summary? Given our forum move, no posts from now on will be backed up and migrated to the new forum.
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What is left to do, possibly, is continuing to discuss the Rubies feats, as well as discussing whether all the crazy new abilities from the game Save the Light should actually be considered canon and used in the profiles, considering that they DO seem to contradict the series basd on the evidence I gave in my post above.

I'm pretty sure that all the edits in the actual OP have now been done (many I took care of myself) aside from adding new abilities for Spinel! But the stuff I mentioned above probably still needs to be discussed.
 
Adem Warlock69 said:
Would Pyrope upgrade Non-Combat Gems to "Unknow to 6-C" instead of "Unknow to 7-A"?
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Nope, no way. As that would contradict all the evidence from the main-series indicating that Non-Combat Gems are "Unknown to 7-A," and remember the game is SECONDARY canon. In this case we have plenty of evidence from PRIMARY canon that non-combat gems only go up to 7-A, so it has to stay that way for sure.
 
Adem Warlock69 said:
Would Pyrope upgrade Non-Combat Gems to "Unknow to 6-C" instead of "Unknow to 7-A"?
Click to expand...
Is Pyrope a non-combat Gem? (Haven't gone through the game yet, so I'm not sure) if she is then probably. Except it would most likely be Unknow to 7-A to 6-C like with the tiering for combat gems (And I don't see why Pyrope being from the game's would prevent this tiering when the combat gem's 6-C tiering comes from Hessonite (Who also only appears in the games))
 
Soupywolf5 said:
Is Pyrope a non-combat Gem? (Haven't gone through the game yet, so I'm not sure) if she is then probably. Except it would most likely be Unknow to 7-A to 6-C like with the tiering for combat gems (And I don't see why Pyrope being from the game's would prevent this tiering when the combat gem's 6-C tiering comes from Hessonite (Who also only appears in the games))
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No, Pyrope is a true Garnet (unlike the fusion of the same name in the Crystal Gems), and while Garnets' role is as leaders, Garnets are CLEARLY combat-type Gems, they are just the highest class of combat-type Gems (probably why "Garnet" calls herself one) and serve as leaders for Quartzes, Rubies, and such, as well as for various non-combat Gems like Nephrites, as Garnets seem to command fleets. They are CLEARLY combat-type based on their abilities in the games as well as the fact that the fusion we know as Garnet calls herself one, and she is clearly combat-type (and one of her components is a combat-type).

I want to let everyone know I made some edits to White Diamond's, Yellow's, and Blue's profiles that Antvasima gave me temporary-staff-rights (which he has now taken back) in order to do:

1. I removed the note from White Diamond's attack-potency which used a Gizmodo article by a random writer who had no affiliation with the series, and cited no sources, "implying" that White Diamond cracked Homeworld, when no such implication was ever made by the writers or in the series. Antvasima agreed that such "evidence" is unacceptable by this site's standards and should be removed. Instead, as justification for her "likely far higher," I rearranged stuff and put the evidence for her being vastly above Yellow and Blue in the parenthetical note for "likely far higher," as that's all the evidence we need.

2. I changed the part in Blue's profile saying that she "casually snapped Lapis' water-chains," as that made it sound like she did so with physical power; But as someone (I forget who) pointed out here, she only snapped the chains once she used her Aura, which is a big part of the justification we used for upgrading Lapis to "likely higher." I also as a result added to the parenthetical note for Blue's "Aura" that it seems to possibly enhance her physical attack-power. As a result, I also added this to the notes for White's Aura and Yellow's Aura, saying that they may possibly enhance their physical power as we saw with Blue. Notice that I used "possibly" as we have no proof of exactly what happened, but clearly Blue didn't snap the chains until she used her Aura, so it has SOME kind of physical or hax effect which needs to be noted, while previously the Aura power only contained a note saying it can effect the Astral Plane. It's also POSSIBLE the Diamond Auras may be some kind of Power Nullification against Gem Powers, but we don't have enough evidence to prove that, so I simply made a note stating that it POSSIBLY enhances physical power.

Edit: Also now that I think about it, STEVEN'S PINK STATE MIGHT JUST BE HIS PINK-DIAMOND AURA ENHANCING ALL HIS CAPABILITIES, as evidence for the "Diamond Auras possibly enhance their abilities" thing. I mean, that would make a ton of sense. And also explain why the full potential of the form is able to surpass all the other Diamonds, as in Reunited, Steven's pink-Aura was able to push back an all-out combined aura-beam from Blue and Yellow within the Astral Plane.
 
Adem Warlock69 said:
When did she say that?
Shouldn't Rose have Pink's Durability?
Click to expand...
I still second what Adem said here: WHEN did White say that Pink was suppressing her power when she was Rose? Somebody got a source for which episode and when?

I mean, her beating Hessonite when the latter was using the Light Prism may have been a PIS high-end outlier for Rose though, especially since the game is only secondary canon.
 
"You've smothered yourself in them. It feels good, doesn't it, Pink? Dulling your power, hiding your face, blaming everything on someone else. You became Rose Quartz to deceive your pathetic friends. And now, you've improved on that because you're even deceiving yourself."

Couldn't that be talking about Steven? The "blaming everything on someone else." is definitely talking about him and Rose already has a High 6-A feat
 
Adem Warlock69 said:
"You've smothered yourself in them. It feels good, doesn't it, Pink? Dulling your power, hiding your face, blaming everything on someone else. You became Rose Quartz to deceive your pathetic friends. And now, you've improved on that because you're even deceiving yourself."
Couldn't that be talking about Steven? The "blaming everything on someone else." is definitely talking about him and Rose already has a High 6-A feat
Click to expand...
The issue here is that it's impossible to tell if that phrase is referring to Pink becoming Rose, to her gemstone being in Steven's body, or to BOTH. "Blaming everything on someone else" COULD be referring to Rose, as Pink became a different person/disguise and blamed the Rebellion on that "new" person. The issue with the High 6-A feat is that it's only in a seecondary-canon game, and isn't confirmed by any of her feats in the series. We will need to further discuss this after the forum move. As I've pointed out, a LOT of what we've added from the games needs to be discussed and POSSIBLY removed as some of the abilities are very arguably inconsistent with PRIMARY-canon.

So here's a BIG question: Gem Physiology says they have LIMITLESS STAMINA, and all the Pure Gems' profiles say their stamina is limitless, but is that REALLY true? There's plenty of times we've seen Gems seemingly exhausted and fatigued, like Garnet and Amethyst when they unfused after being Sugilite for days on end! If they have limitless stamina, then why have we seen repeatedly in the series that they are weakened when injured and can get fatigued, which shouldn't be the case if their stamina was limitless? I've never bought into the idea of them having limitless stamina; it's actively contradicted by many times when Gems were shown as exhausted/fatigued.

It seems the main reason we list them as having "limitless stamina" is because they have Self-Sustenance and don't require food, water, air, or sleep to survive. But honestly? That is a terrible and illogical reason to think their stamina IN BATTLE is limitless, as self-sustenance and limitless combat-stamina are two ENTIRELY DIFFERENT things! I'm aware that the page for Self Sustenance says that "restful self-sustenance" means they have "practically infinite stamina," but the key-word is PRACTICALLY! Gems have shown over and over again that they have infinite stamina when not fighting, but THEY GET FATIGUED IN ACTUAL BATTLE OR FROM LONG UNSTABLE FUSIONS, so we shouldn't have their stamina listed as limitless as far as Versus-Matches go!
 
Mental strain is not the same thing as physical exhaustion, as Lapis demonstrated during her time with malachite, unstable fusions are extremely taxing mentally on Gems. This has nothing to do with their physical stamina, which as stated numerous times thorughout the series and even by WoG is limitless
 
HmWeeklyBattles said:
Mental strain is not the same thing as physical exhaustion, as Lapis demonstrated during her time with malachite, unstable fusions are extremely taxing mentally on Gems. This has nothing to do with their physical stamina, which as stated numerous times thorughout the series and even by WoG is limitless
Click to expand...
Hmmm so then all the times we've seen Gems seemingly fatigued it was from mental strain, and all the times we saw them weakened by injury it was because of the mental strain of being injured? MAYBE I can buy that explanation, Weekly. Buuuuut:

Can you remind me again of some of the times in the series when it was stated they have limitless stamina, and if it was said that that applies IN COMBAT? The issue I'm having is that it seems like combat may fatigue them. . .I dunno! I mean, Superman has limitless stamina under yellow sunlight but still eventually ran out of energy and died when fighting Doomsday, and that generally isn't considered an outlier or PIS, ya know? Because in ACTUAL COMBAT he can drain his stamina faster than it can be limitlessly resupplied by sunlight! Maybe Gems might be the same? When in Word of God OR in the series was it stated that their "infinite stamina" applies during actual heated battle? Clearly their gemstones are limited in their power-output, so it is possible that while normally infinite, the stamina of Gems can be drained past their limit whle in combat!

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, Weekly. Just trying to figure things out. As I said, Post-Crisis Superman provides proof/an example that normally-infinite stamina can be drained faster than it can replenished when in actual battle pushing oneself to the limit. So when, if ever, were the "infinite stamina" statements in the show or from writers made clear as applying to combat?

Edit: Also Weekly, what are your thoughts on Adem's argument for Rose being High 6-A since she beat Hessonite when the latter was USING THE LIGHT-PRISM???
 
Lapis was unconscious due to fighting jasper in a mental battle non-stop for months, garnet and amethyst collapsed after their personalities started to merge due to being fused into sugilite and going wild for over a day, etc. Hell Pearl even mentions that due to the fact that Gems are active 24/7 they dont even bother acknowledging human measurements of time, just referring to it as day time and night time regarding anything they do other than timeframes longer than a decade.

During the time when Peridot was sending probes to Earth Garnet says that they can viably keep fighting them forever if they have to but she just doesnt feel like it. The Superman comparison doesnt really work here as Superman's stamina is directly fueled by the sun and it can be drained by removing it, whereas Gems done have an external fuel source, though their Gem is stated to produce an infinite amount of energy.
 
In both the show and the comics

The Gems being solar powered kinda contradicts everything in the show lol
 
WeeklyBattles said:
In both the show and the comics
The Gems being solar powered kinda contradicts everything in the show lol
Click to expand...
Personally I think she was hinting that they were born from stars/starlight, as there has always been that theory floating around that the Diamonds were born from the core of a White Dwarf star, which would explain why Gems say "oh my stars" and seem to have a religion worshipping celestial bodies. On the other hand, them being solar-powered might NOT contradict the show; after all, Superma, who I mentioned, is supposedly solar-powered, but honestly that makes NO FLIPPING SENSE given that no amount of energy from the Earth's Sun should be NEARLY enough to give him Tier 4-B energy, nor should it be enough for him to "store" energy while in the dark for as long as he does. Gems could be solar-powered in the same sense of "writers can't do physics" that Superman is in DC. That would make sense; given that there are so many PIS outliers in the series, Rebecca clearly doesn't know physics. The issue with saying that "solar-powered" contradicts the show is that it relies on the faulty assumption that Rebecca knows how physics works, lmao.

Weekly: WHERE in the show and comics was it stated that they have infinite stamina IN COMBAT? Again, Superman has infinite stamina under a yellow sun, yet SINCE HIS ACTUAL TOTAL ENERGY ISN'T INFINITE and since his powers' output at any given time is finite, he can DRAIN THAT INFINITE STAMINA, specifically IN COMBAT, faster than it can be replenished; as a result he became exhausted and died IN BROAD DAYLIGHT at the end of his first battle with Doomsday. In other words, infinite stamina is something that may not apply to actual combat; unless the actual amount of stored energy is infinite or the replenishing-rate has no limit, then the power output at any given time is limited to some finite amount and thus when the character PUSHES THEMSELVES TO THE LIMIT, they can drain their OTHERWISE-infinite stamina faster than it can be replenished.

Weekly, again I'm not NECESSSARILY disagreeing with you, but you have yet to show where it was stated/proven that their actual store of energy is infinite, rather than constantly replenishing at some finite rate, and that as a result they can't use up their "infinite" stamina too quickly during combat and become exhausted, just like Superman.
 
Adem Warlock69 said:
Would this be Lifting Lifting Strength? Pyrope Took The Light Palace and put it in a different Planet
Pyrope Took the Light Palace
Click to expand...
Was it shown that she actually physically lifted and moved it herself?
 
Adem Warlock69 said:
Goodyfresh said:
Was it shown that she actually physically lifted and moved it herself?
Click to expand...
It wasn't shown, but it was done by either Pyrope or Demantoid
Click to expand...
Where was it stated that they used their own physical power to do it rather than some technological means? What is the quote/statement, exactly? Just what you showed me? Or is there more?
 
Adem Warlock69 said:
It wasn't explained, that's the only statement about it, they probably used their Prisms
Click to expand...
Okay then we clearly can't assume it counts as a lifting-strength feat as we don't know in what way they used their Prisms' powers for it, and even if they did use amping via their Prisms to lift it, that would only be an upgrade for lifting-strength specifically when amped by a Light Prism, so it wouldn't apply to anyone else besides Prism-bearers.
 
DatBoiBrown said:
Who would win? Steven (Future) vs. Lapis (Future)
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This question doesn't really belong in this thread since it is a CRT so normally I would tell you to post it somewhere else, buuuuuut since posts made at this time will just be erased when the forum-move happens, I will answer you (since any conversation we have about this literally won't be around once the mnove happens, haha).

That's a doozy of a question. You didn't give enough conditions though. I mean. . . .obviously Monster Steven can beat Lapis. So like, what LEVEL of Pink State is Steven able to use?

If Steven can't use Pink State then Lapis stomps him HARD with her Water Manipulation. No question, if he can't turn Pink then he can't beat her, her water-manip is so massively powerful that she can restrain the likes of Blue Diamond and Monster Steven. She can honestly completely thrash, like outright ROFL-stomp, any character in the series besides the Diamonds, fusions at least as powerful as Alexandrite, and possibly Pink State Steven (see below).

If Steven can use Pink State. . .then I think he can probably, maybe win? His shields could protect him from any of her water constructs and his bubbles produce their own air inside them (apparently) so she couldn't drown him or suffocate him, and Lapis's weakness in the fight would be that she's a glass-cannon; her Water Manipulation is VERY powerful (legitimately Diamond-level), but the actual physical durability of her body is nothing special at all. Steven with Pink State has a lot of very versatile ranged attacks, so could likely beat her.

If it was Aggressive (Chad) Pink State Steven from the time when he shattered Jasper, then I am PRETTY SURE that Steven would almost definitely win, for the above reasons and because of the abilities he showed in the fight with Jasper like True Flight, restraining people with his barriers, and extremly versatile ranged offensive barriers that can shatter the most durable non-Diamond non-Fusion Gem in the series.
 
I thought it would be a more even fight. OBVIOUSLY not Monster Steven, that's a given. I was basically thinking Pink State as far as it could go, except monster form. Lapis can pretty much copy any offensive move in his arsenal except super-speed. But, you're right. The durability is just too much.

BTW fight is in Beach City.

Morals off (i.e. Chad Steven and BIG BOI Lapis.

Win via K.O. or Poof (Lapis Exclusive)
 
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