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- #121
I think it's less the fact of him moving moons and orbits or not, but him believing he had enough power to do it.
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Star Wars Revision: Godly Sith Lords (Legends)
- Thread starter Matthew_Schroeder
- Start date
- Status
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Did I understand this right?
Is this correct?
- Mace Windu: At least High 4-C
- Mother Talzin: At least High 4-C
- Darth Vitiate: 4-B
- The Hero of Tython: 4-B
- Yoda: 4-B
- RoTS Sidious: 4-B
- Dark Empire Sidious: At least 4-B
- Dark Empire Luke: At least 4-B
Is this correct?
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- Thread starter
- #123
No At least 4-B. Sidious and Luke are just higher 4-B.
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- Thread starter
- #124
Mace Windu should be High 4-C straight up. He should also be above Brakiss.
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Wouldn't that mean there is no need for a Dark Empire Sidious key?
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I'd like us to handle this at a different time, at least.Matthew Schroeder said:
When we sort this out and look into that feat.
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I didn't see this.Matthew Schroeder said:
So it would be like this:
- Mace Windu: High 4-C
- Mother Talzin: At least High 4-C
- Darth Vitiate: 4-B
- The Hero of Tython: 4-B
- Yoda: 4-B
- Sidious: 4-B
- Dark Empire Luke: 4-B
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Will Dooku be High 4-C too? No? Ow... ovo
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1) Mother Talzin fought Sidious, and they seemed roughly even until Dooku rejoined. She is not a tier below him by any meansTeenAngel101 said:
2) Dooku's feat is hardly an outlier, he's outright stated to be Windu's superior, many times in fact (and aside from Palpatine, has vastly better feats on the whole)
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Dooku is never stated to be above Mace.
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- Thread starter
- #132
Dooku is super weak. He is pathetic compared to Mace and Sidious.
And Mother Talzin is also sorta not on Palpatine's level.
And Mother Talzin is also sorta not on Palpatine's level.
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Dooku has been stated numerous times to be his equal or superior as a jedi (Usually something along the lines of "The only guy not named Yoda who is superior to Windu"), who is weaker than Darth TyrannusThe Everlasting said:
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Absolutely not. Yoda is stated in nearly every source I've ever seen to be Windu's superior, and has vastly better feats regarding anyone not named Sheev Palpatine.Reppuzan said:
Windu has outright stated he's not Yoda's "equal in Peace, nor War."
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@Ever
Bruce is referring to lightsaber combat, since Dooku was the only one in the Jedi Order short of Yoda who could match Windu in a spar prior to his departure.
But as we stated, skill =/= raw power, and Sidious ditched Dooku explicitly because Vader was more powerful.
Bruce is referring to lightsaber combat, since Dooku was the only one in the Jedi Order short of Yoda who could match Windu in a spar prior to his departure.
But as we stated, skill =/= raw power, and Sidious ditched Dooku explicitly because Vader was more powerful.
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That isn't at all how Vader died. He died from the damage to his respirator and his life support systems, which were shorted out by Sheev's lightning, not Palpatine's attack or the shockwaves of his death.Matthew Schroeder said:
It's more accurate to say he suffocated
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He died from the shockwaves and Sheev's lightning wounding him.
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I've never seen anything about shockwaves, so I will have to ask for quotes.Matthew Schroeder said:
Sheev's lightning didn't really hurt him nearly as much as it hurt his life support systems, which he is completely dependent upon for survival, so kinda yes, kinda no.
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Dooku is so strong that he got overpowered by Sidious's hologram and needed Ventress's help to drive back Savage, who got casually stomped by Sidious even with help from Maul.
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Dooku is decently strong, but definitely not as good as Late Clone Wars Era Anakin who was still weaker than Mace, who was I think it was stated best swordsmaster in the order?
Also I agree with MFTL+ but shouldn't it only apply when they're in their incorporeal states, b/c then they are unbound from their physical limitations?
Also I agree with MFTL+ but shouldn't it only apply when they're in their incorporeal states, b/c then they are unbound from their physical limitations?
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I agree with the proposed upgrades, though i'm also hoping some of the High 6-A's might get a bit stronger (not scaling to Sheev and Vitiate of course but still)
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- #144
"Also I agree with MFTL+ but shouldn't it only apply when they're in their incorporeal states, b/c then they are unbound from their physical limitations"
If they were they wouldn't have to fly across the galaxy. Also the whole point about Sidious being able to fly from Endor to Byss was because his Dark Side powers were so great that he wasn't weakened after losing his physical form.
He mentions multiple times that he lives primarily as formless Dark Side energy and that physical bodies can't contain his power, and narration and guidebooks confirms that. Sidious is incorporeal energy in a physical vessel. The only advantage he has when lacking a body is that he can fly around in space and stuff since he's basically a ghost.
If they were they wouldn't have to fly across the galaxy. Also the whole point about Sidious being able to fly from Endor to Byss was because his Dark Side powers were so great that he wasn't weakened after losing his physical form.
He mentions multiple times that he lives primarily as formless Dark Side energy and that physical bodies can't contain his power, and narration and guidebooks confirms that. Sidious is incorporeal energy in a physical vessel. The only advantage he has when lacking a body is that he can fly around in space and stuff since he's basically a ghost.
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@Matt
Oh really! I wasn't aware of that; do you remember which novel/comic this was? I'd like to read it, I don't think I have yet and it sounds good. Sure for the upgrade then. I thought it was like with Yoda who had to sustain his body using the Force, which is why his combat ability degrades when he ages.
Oh really! I wasn't aware of that; do you remember which novel/comic this was? I'd like to read it, I don't think I have yet and it sounds good. Sure for the upgrade then. I thought it was like with Yoda who had to sustain his body using the Force, which is why his combat ability degrades when he ages.
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Dark Empire. I recommend the Audio Dramas more than the comic because they have more character depth and world-building. You can find them on youtube.
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Completely Agree with the upgrades. I was always bugged by the fact that Sidious is equal to other Sith Lords and Vitiate is bellow him and other Sith Lords who are clearly not on his level lore-wise. Althought I never had the patiance nor the constitution to call on an upgrade, much less with all the research and arguments put on this thread.
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I mean... Dooku has all of this attributed to him:
"Fought well you have, my old Padawan."
Source: Attack of the Clones
With Form II, Dooku holds his own even against Master Yoda.
Source: Insider #62: Fightsaber
With Form II, Dooku holds his own even against Master Yoda in Attack of the Clones.
Source: Star Wars Adventures Magazine #3
It was Count Dooku's combination of finesse and superior craftsmanship that enabled him to best both Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker, as well as hold his own against Jedi Master Yoda, during the Battle of Geonosis.
Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #68
Here, his decades of lightsabre training gave him the ability to parry and riposte against Yoda's frenzied Form IV fighting style. Although the match ended in a stalemate, many Jedi believed Dooku would return for another confrontation with the Jedi.
Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #68
Forced to cross sabers with Dooku, Yoda falls back on his knowledge of Form IV, an acrobatic style that lets him overcome the natural limitations of his size and reach. He lacks the stamina of youth, but calls on the Force to fight the Sith Lord to a draw.
Source: Attack of the Clones: The
Yoda and Dooku were almost equals, with the little Jedi Master having perhaps a slight edge over his former padawan.
Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #34 (Relaunched)
With a flick of his hand, he picked up the heavyset woman with the Force and hurled her through the window casement. Yoda's eyes went wide with shock. "You might want to help her," Dooku said.
With a bound, Yoda was at the casement. Whirry was windmilling down through the black air, screaming and tumbling toward the flagstones. Narrowing his eyes, Yoda reached out through the Force and caught her not three meters from the ground.
Instantly he was in the air himself, spinning away from Dooku's vicious attack before he was even consciously aware it was coming. The blinding scarlet blur of Dooku's lightsaber split the air, slashing a burning line along Yoda's side before chopping his desk in half. Yoda whipped out his blade while trying to set Whirry gently down on the cobblestones below. "Wish to hurt you, I do not!"
"That's odd," Dooku remarked. "I intend to enjoy killing you."
As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light. "I've hurt you!" Dooku cried.
"Many times," Yoda said. He considered his pain: let it drop. Now he had nothing but Dooku to focus on, and his lightsaber gleamed with the same fierce green light that flickered from under his heavy-lidded eyes. "But killed me you did not, when you had the chance. A mistake, that was. More than eight hundred years has Yoda survived, through dangers you could not dream."
"I know how to kill," Dooku hissed.
Yoda's eyes opened wide, like balls of green fire. "Yes—but Yoda knows how to live!"
Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green and red: but the green burned hotter. Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.
"Yes," Dooku whispered. "Feel me. Feel the treason. All those years of teaching me, raising me. Trusting me. And here am I, the favored son, butchering your precious Jedi, one by one. Hate me Yoda. You know you want to."
Count Dooku lashed out with his lightsaber. Yoda took a quick step back and felt the heat of the red blade as it sliced the air centimeters from his tunic.
He jumped, spun, and struck at Dooku's back before he landed. Dooku turned aside at the last moment, whipping his blade across the space where Yoda was seconds earlier. Facing each other again, their blades met, clashed, froze.
"Cunning, are you," Yoda said, breathing hard.
"I've had excellent teachers," Dooku said.
Yoda dropped and rolled to the side, his lightsaber blazing, reaching for Dooku's ankles. Dooku leapt up and flipped backwards landing lightly to face Yoda squarely. On his feet again, Yoda whirled and struck at Dooku, his green blade meeting Dooku's and pushing him back. Dooku attacked with reckless abandon fueled with hatred. Their blades hummed together, hissing and sparking.
Dooku brought his blade down toward the diminutive Jedi Master and Yoda parried, locking his blade against Dooku's. Yoda breathed, calming himself. "And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me . . . love you enough to destroy you I do."
Pushing Dooku back yet again, blades flashed and flared stutters of light, blood red and sea green.
Sweat ran in streams through Dooku's beard as he countered Yoda's every move, and his lips were white. Holobattles raged around them as the consoles showed Obi-Wan and Anakin clashing with wave after wave of battle droids. Dooku shot a quick glance at the red button on his desk and, with a Force push, he punched it in.
Yoda cocked his head. "A choice made, have you, Count?"
"I notice I am no longer your apprentice," Dooku said between breaths. "There was always a chance you could overpower me, of course." Yoda attacked: Dooku parried. "So I put a missile in high orbit, slaved to this location. It's falling now. Gathering speed." Dooku stepped warily back to the open window casement. "Can you feel it dropping? A thorn, a needle, an arrow. Faster all the time." He paused to get his breath. "Obi-Wan and your precious Skywalker and your little Padawans will be wiped out when the missile hits. So what you need to decide is, what means more to you, Master Yoda? Saving their lives—or taking mine?"
And with that he leapt backward, out the window. Yoda bounded after him. In the dark Vjun air it was all he could do not to leap after Dooku, to fall on him like a green thunderbolt and annihilate him utterly.
... But already he could feel the missile, too, dropping in a red scream through the atmosphere, two hundred armored kilos of explosive aimed for Chateau Malreaux. With a snort, Yoda turned his eyes to the sky and picked out the glowing dot racing in from the horizon.
Below him, Dooku landed softly on the ground and melted into the rose gardens.
Source: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
Dooku battled his former tutor Yoda on Geonosis, then again on Vjun. On both occasions, Dooku fled before the outcome was clear; although he penetrated Yoda's defenses enough to wound him on the second occasion.
Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #18 (Relaunched)
While Dooku only fought occasionally with his lightsaber during the Clone Wars, he was never fully bested. He achieved the near impossible by wounding Master Yoda during a fight on Vjun, before making a tactical withdrawl.
Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #18 (Relaunched)
Yoda had taken a personal interest in Dooku for his extraordinary connection to the Force.
Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
Dooku's strength in the Force made him enigmatic for even Yoda.
Source: Attack of the Clones: The Ultimate Illustrated Guide
On the other side of the galaxy, the Order's most gifted apprentice reached out to tap a lightsaber with the toe of his boot. Count Dooku grimaced.
Source: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
Dooku was a unique case in the history of the Jedi Order. Universally respected, he would have been a Master on a par with Yoda had he not abandoned the Order to join its greatest enemies.
Source: Insider #113
'The other three Jedi in the room glanced guiltily at Yoda. He snorted, but laugh lines crinkled around his eyes. "Mm. Thinking of students, I am. Best then I should go to battle with him in whom the Force is strongest, hmm? With young Skywalker, think you?"
"He's not polished," Ilena said.
"And too impulsive," Mace added.
"Hm." Yoda stirred again with his stick. "Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be!" His eyes found the other Jedi, one by one: and one by one, they looked away. "Our great student!" Yoda's ears flexed, then drooped. "Our great failure."
Source: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
'"It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force... but by our skills with a lightsaber."
Source: Attack of the Clones
'The old Master was so accomplished in every aspect of the Force that until the Battle of Geonosis he had rarely needed to resort to his weapon. When he did, he proved as masterful with it as without.
Source: http://imgur.com/84WNvvI (Star Wars Fact File)
'The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched.
Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force
'The two engaged in a titanic struggle of Force powers, neither besting the other.
Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
'The belief that he was better than the other students only seemed to gain further validation when Dooku demonstrated an understanding of the Force far beyond that of his peers.
Source: Insider #113
"Fought well you have, my old Padawan."
Source: Attack of the Clones
With Form II, Dooku holds his own even against Master Yoda.
Source: Insider #62: Fightsaber
With Form II, Dooku holds his own even against Master Yoda in Attack of the Clones.
Source: Star Wars Adventures Magazine #3
It was Count Dooku's combination of finesse and superior craftsmanship that enabled him to best both Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker, as well as hold his own against Jedi Master Yoda, during the Battle of Geonosis.
Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #68
Here, his decades of lightsabre training gave him the ability to parry and riposte against Yoda's frenzied Form IV fighting style. Although the match ended in a stalemate, many Jedi believed Dooku would return for another confrontation with the Jedi.
Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #68
Forced to cross sabers with Dooku, Yoda falls back on his knowledge of Form IV, an acrobatic style that lets him overcome the natural limitations of his size and reach. He lacks the stamina of youth, but calls on the Force to fight the Sith Lord to a draw.
Source: Attack of the Clones: The
Code:
Expanded Visual DictionarySource: The Official Star Wars Fact File #34 (Relaunched)
With a flick of his hand, he picked up the heavyset woman with the Force and hurled her through the window casement. Yoda's eyes went wide with shock. "You might want to help her," Dooku said.
With a bound, Yoda was at the casement. Whirry was windmilling down through the black air, screaming and tumbling toward the flagstones. Narrowing his eyes, Yoda reached out through the Force and caught her not three meters from the ground.
Instantly he was in the air himself, spinning away from Dooku's vicious attack before he was even consciously aware it was coming. The blinding scarlet blur of Dooku's lightsaber split the air, slashing a burning line along Yoda's side before chopping his desk in half. Yoda whipped out his blade while trying to set Whirry gently down on the cobblestones below. "Wish to hurt you, I do not!"
"That's odd," Dooku remarked. "I intend to enjoy killing you."
As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light. "I've hurt you!" Dooku cried.
"Many times," Yoda said. He considered his pain: let it drop. Now he had nothing but Dooku to focus on, and his lightsaber gleamed with the same fierce green light that flickered from under his heavy-lidded eyes. "But killed me you did not, when you had the chance. A mistake, that was. More than eight hundred years has Yoda survived, through dangers you could not dream."
"I know how to kill," Dooku hissed.
Yoda's eyes opened wide, like balls of green fire. "Yes—but Yoda knows how to live!"
Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green and red: but the green burned hotter. Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.
"Yes," Dooku whispered. "Feel me. Feel the treason. All those years of teaching me, raising me. Trusting me. And here am I, the favored son, butchering your precious Jedi, one by one. Hate me Yoda. You know you want to."
Count Dooku lashed out with his lightsaber. Yoda took a quick step back and felt the heat of the red blade as it sliced the air centimeters from his tunic.
He jumped, spun, and struck at Dooku's back before he landed. Dooku turned aside at the last moment, whipping his blade across the space where Yoda was seconds earlier. Facing each other again, their blades met, clashed, froze.
"Cunning, are you," Yoda said, breathing hard.
"I've had excellent teachers," Dooku said.
Yoda dropped and rolled to the side, his lightsaber blazing, reaching for Dooku's ankles. Dooku leapt up and flipped backwards landing lightly to face Yoda squarely. On his feet again, Yoda whirled and struck at Dooku, his green blade meeting Dooku's and pushing him back. Dooku attacked with reckless abandon fueled with hatred. Their blades hummed together, hissing and sparking.
Dooku brought his blade down toward the diminutive Jedi Master and Yoda parried, locking his blade against Dooku's. Yoda breathed, calming himself. "And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me . . . love you enough to destroy you I do."
Pushing Dooku back yet again, blades flashed and flared stutters of light, blood red and sea green.
Sweat ran in streams through Dooku's beard as he countered Yoda's every move, and his lips were white. Holobattles raged around them as the consoles showed Obi-Wan and Anakin clashing with wave after wave of battle droids. Dooku shot a quick glance at the red button on his desk and, with a Force push, he punched it in.
Yoda cocked his head. "A choice made, have you, Count?"
"I notice I am no longer your apprentice," Dooku said between breaths. "There was always a chance you could overpower me, of course." Yoda attacked: Dooku parried. "So I put a missile in high orbit, slaved to this location. It's falling now. Gathering speed." Dooku stepped warily back to the open window casement. "Can you feel it dropping? A thorn, a needle, an arrow. Faster all the time." He paused to get his breath. "Obi-Wan and your precious Skywalker and your little Padawans will be wiped out when the missile hits. So what you need to decide is, what means more to you, Master Yoda? Saving their lives—or taking mine?"
And with that he leapt backward, out the window. Yoda bounded after him. In the dark Vjun air it was all he could do not to leap after Dooku, to fall on him like a green thunderbolt and annihilate him utterly.
... But already he could feel the missile, too, dropping in a red scream through the atmosphere, two hundred armored kilos of explosive aimed for Chateau Malreaux. With a snort, Yoda turned his eyes to the sky and picked out the glowing dot racing in from the horizon.
Below him, Dooku landed softly on the ground and melted into the rose gardens.
Source: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
Dooku battled his former tutor Yoda on Geonosis, then again on Vjun. On both occasions, Dooku fled before the outcome was clear; although he penetrated Yoda's defenses enough to wound him on the second occasion.
Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #18 (Relaunched)
While Dooku only fought occasionally with his lightsaber during the Clone Wars, he was never fully bested. He achieved the near impossible by wounding Master Yoda during a fight on Vjun, before making a tactical withdrawl.
Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #18 (Relaunched)
Yoda had taken a personal interest in Dooku for his extraordinary connection to the Force.
Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
Dooku's strength in the Force made him enigmatic for even Yoda.
Source: Attack of the Clones: The Ultimate Illustrated Guide
On the other side of the galaxy, the Order's most gifted apprentice reached out to tap a lightsaber with the toe of his boot. Count Dooku grimaced.
Source: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
Dooku was a unique case in the history of the Jedi Order. Universally respected, he would have been a Master on a par with Yoda had he not abandoned the Order to join its greatest enemies.
Source: Insider #113
'The other three Jedi in the room glanced guiltily at Yoda. He snorted, but laugh lines crinkled around his eyes. "Mm. Thinking of students, I am. Best then I should go to battle with him in whom the Force is strongest, hmm? With young Skywalker, think you?"
"He's not polished," Ilena said.
"And too impulsive," Mace added.
"Hm." Yoda stirred again with his stick. "Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be!" His eyes found the other Jedi, one by one: and one by one, they looked away. "Our great student!" Yoda's ears flexed, then drooped. "Our great failure."
Source: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
'"It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force... but by our skills with a lightsaber."
Source: Attack of the Clones
'The old Master was so accomplished in every aspect of the Force that until the Battle of Geonosis he had rarely needed to resort to his weapon. When he did, he proved as masterful with it as without.
Source: http://imgur.com/84WNvvI (Star Wars Fact File)
'The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched.
Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force
'The two engaged in a titanic struggle of Force powers, neither besting the other.
Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
'The belief that he was better than the other students only seemed to gain further validation when Dooku demonstrated an understanding of the Force far beyond that of his peers.
Source: Insider #113
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- Thread starter
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Dooku was obviously bested by Yoda so much so that he had to ran away.
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I'm going to drop it, but I feel you guys are kinda downplaying him a bit.
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Yeah I really have to agree with Matt here. Dooku again is good better than pretty much all the council members. Mace and Yoda stomp him though. Mace and Yoda could fight Sidious almost evenly for a short period (well in Mace's instance Sidious was probably sandbagging for a bit), who is much stronger than new-darkside Anakin who killed Dooku.
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while I agree with Dooku and them not being on Yoda and Sidious level, but I highly doubt the gap between them can be as huge as 4-B and High 6-A...
Anakin has been repeatedly stated to be one of the most powerful Jedi of all time, same with Vader with being one the most powerful Sith of all time.
Anakin has been repeatedly stated to be one of the most powerful Jedi of all time, same with Vader with being one the most powerful Sith of all time.
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I mean Sidious is the same, considered to the most powerful sith by statement and scales... so should Vader, Vader is by no means 4-B but he should be comparable to Darth bane
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I feel like we're just dismissing LephyrTheRevanchist proof to show that Dooku could keep up with atleast a casual Yoda way to easily.. by saying stuff like.. well clearly Dooku ran away in the movie.. when the same can be said for sidious.. well he might be powerful but Vader just picked him up and through him over the edge.
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As I said above
Dooku is so strong that he got overpowered by Sidious's hologram and needed Ventress's help to drive back Savage, who got casually stomped by Sidious even with help from Maul.
Dooku is so strong that he got overpowered by Sidious's hologram and needed Ventress's help to drive back Savage, who got casually stomped by Sidious even with help from Maul.
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- Thread starter
- #159
We cannot just scale everyone to the god-tier feats just because. This is clearly just a case of multiple writers having different ideas and not being nearly as analytical of the feats across dozens of EU stories as we are.
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