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Sora and Kairi Fate Manip Upgrade plus Type 8 Immortality

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Sorry for the long wait. Doing my other things.

So like the last one regarding Sora's state from the base game, I did a comparison between both JAP and ENG to cross check whatever might have been altered or changed from one to the other and nothing's really changed as far as I can tell.
 
So basically stuff regarding about how to bring back Kairi even after her heart and body perished has remained but just said as "faded from existence". As with other stuff regarding the Power of Waking being used incorrectly from what it was intended to be used for, so everything in that conversation has remained more or less the same.
 
First, thanks a lot for checking, @Qliphoth_Bacikal , that will be useful for another revision I have planned over granting Keyblade Wielders Existence Erasure
GiverOfThePeace said:
"Resurrection (Kairi's bond with Sora allows him to re-piece his body back together if he is ever killed)"
Click to expand...
Anyways, for this, just to ensure accuracy...
Shouldn't it be more like "Time Travel, Resurrection and Causality Manipulation (Rewrote the deaths of the keyblade wielders and completed negated the prophecy of darkness prevailing and light expiring with the Power of Waking, This affected even Xehanort who is unaffected by changes to the past, Kairi's bond with Sora allows him to re-piece his body back together if he is ever killed, also going back to the past to rewrite it)"? The Power of Waking seems to be related with Sora going back from the Final World once he's done (This also seems to have happened off-screen on the final move he rewrites from Xehanort so Donald and Goofy helped him), but I would like to hear thoughts.
Also, Sora should have a resistance to Fate Manip while we are on it
Fate Manipulation (Sora's use of the Power of Waking overwrote the foretold events from the Book of Prophecies)
 
Sounds good from what I'm reading. It should be noted though in vs threads that due to the timeframe being unknown he won't immediately return to the battlefield.
 
Well, considering how time travel is involved whenever this happens, it really wouldn't be perceived as if time passed, as Sora would be on the past, rather than the "current" present, so it may not be necessary.
 
Yeah with how Power of Waking was used by Sora, he'd be more traveling to the past or be in it rather than the current present.

At least that's how the game and Re:Mind shows us what Sora did with it. The use of PoW to restore his friends hearts (and bodies?) was enough to rewrite the initial present which the Japanese version even states "as if it never happened".

DK what the time duration for Sora to do that would be but it's there.
 
Bobsican said:
Well, considering how time travel is involved whenever this happens, it really wouldn't be perceived as if time passed, as Sora would be on the past, rather than the "current" present, so it may not be necessary.
Click to expand...
Time travel is involved at the very end, not the minute he's sent to the final world.
 
Considering that Sora is the one doing the resurrection on himself, would it be reasonable to list as well High-Godly Regeneration?
 
Bobsican said:
Considering that Sora is the one doing the resurrection on himself, would it be reasonable to list as well High-Godly Regeneration?
Click to expand...
Isn't Sora resurrecting himself manually? It doesn't seem like as if that would fit the definition for Regeneration as a healing factor.
 
well if the Heart is more fundamental than the soul like information
then High-Godly should be okay i don't see any problem with it but it would fall under resurrection
 
Nehz_XZX said:
I don't know about the details regarding the character you've linked but unless the resurrection is something that happens automatically I wouldn't categorize it as Regeneration. To me the case that is discussed in this thread is definitely Resurrection.
Click to expand...
Regeneration doesn't have to be automatic or instant for it to fall as that as that far I'm aware.
 
Nehz_XZX said:
What's the difference between Regeneration and Resurrection then?
Click to expand...
Resurrection can be used on others and......
i dunno in sora and ren's case they serve the same purpose. it will also casue some troubles in vs debates if it's just Resurrection because others will say something along the lines of
"it's not on the profile" etc etc. so it's best to either just make high godly regen , or high godly regen via Resurrection or something along these lines
 
Sora's can be used on others as he did shortly after recovering himself.
And yes, it would avoid issues in versus threads.
 
Also Ren Amamaiya is not a useable example since his High Godly reasoning is for regenerating from conceptual erasure from all of history appearing in a place outside of reality and retaining his existence.

Sora's is not remotely on the same scale nor potency.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
I asked why this would be High-Godly and still haven't gotten a direct answer, him ressing himself isn't regen for one and I don't know where "if the heart acts like a soul information it's high-godly" comes from, nothing on the regeneration page even implies this. This would be at best low godly if we took it as regeneration which again, I see no reason why we would.
Click to expand...
High Godly regen no longer is being erased on a conceptual level or the like anymore, but rather the body, the soul, the mind plus some other fancy part of an user's existence, which in this case would be the Heart, hence why.
 
Bobsican said:
High Godly regen no longer is being erased on a conceptual level or the like anymore, but rather the body, the soul, the mind plus some other fancy part of an user's existence, which in this case would be the Heart, hence why.
Click to expand...
Never said high godly regen is being erased on a conceptual level anywhere in my comment, I said Joker's case is radically different from Sora's. Sora was not erased on this scale nor completely, the only thing we have off of a Sora is he's not literally in pieces from the japanese translation, and that's about it.

Also no, the heart does not fall under that "other fancy part", direct quote from the page:
"along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence, such as their place in the narrative, their entire history, or the underlying concept(s) or information needed for them to exist."

The heart is none of these, as shown with people existing without hearts.
 
They have Nonexistent Physiology, that's pointed out plenty of times, however, arguing that would deserve another CRT of its own.
Where should we start?
 
Bobsican said:
They have Nonexistent Physiology, that's pointed out plenty of times, however, arguing that would deserve another CRT of its own.
Where should we start?
Click to expand...
We downgraded NEP already, so you'd need to make a new CRT regarding that, and I'd really need to see what your new proof regarding that is, especially since nobodies have been explicitly mentioned to have souls and get sick.
Idk what you mean by your question exactly.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
We downgraded NEP already, so you'd need to make a new CRT regarding that, and I'd really need to see what your new proof regarding that is, especially since nobodies have been explicitly mentioned to have souls and get sick.
Idk what you mean by your question exactly.
Click to expand...
I mean, having some "existencial" aspects doesn't necessarily means that they do exist, plenty of characters with NEP still have some physicality but simply don't exist by some verse semantic, and not existing doesn't mean that someone can't get sick, they're still alive, after all.
Anyways, I guess I'll have to bring up the stuff before continuing this discussion then.
 
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Bobsican said:
I mean, having some "existencial" aspects doesn't necessarily means that they do exist, plenty of characters with NEP still have some physicality but simply don't exist by some verse semantic, and not existing doesn't mean that someone can't get sick, they're still alive, after all.
Anyways, I guess I'll have to bring up the stuff before continuing this discussion then.
Click to expand...
Name the characters in question, I can't think of one.
 
I would just look at how most of the characters with it have a physical form, Non-Corporeality isn't a necessary aspect for NEP (You don't see NEP automatically granting a resistance to disease manip, after all)
I'll go ahead and contact users knowledgeable into NEP to ensure nothing is wrong with what I'm thinking however.

Also, I'll apologize beforehand for the next double post I'm going to do, but it's going to be quite large as it's going to mention the most notable (Respectively) supporting statements for NEP
 
Can somebody summarise the topics of discussion here please?
 
Bobsican said:
I would just look at how most of the characters with it have a physical form, Non-Corporeality isn't a necessary aspect for NEP (You don't see NEP automatically granting a resistance to disease manip, after all)
I'll go ahead and contact users knowledgeable into NEP to ensure nothing is wrong with what I'm thinking however.

Also, I'll apologize beforehand for the next double post I'm going to do, but it's going to be quite large as it's going to mention the most notable (Respectively) supporting statements for NEP
Click to expand...
There's a huge difference between someone having an illusionary physical form and someone having a soul Bob. Those are not comparable examples.

You don't see a resistance to a lot of hax on a character that's naturally a ghosts profile either, that doesn't prove anything. A NEP being can't get a disease since they don't exist. It's not even someone disease maniping them either it's them just getting the common cold.
 
Antvasima said:
Can somebody summarise the topics of discussion here please?
Click to expand...
Basically we're right now talking about over how Sora has resurrection of himself and others out of the Power of Waking, however, now we're on the issue of up to what level of Regeneration it falls as, right now it would be Low-Godly as there's nothing to match it for an higher rating at the moment, however, as I've brought up, there's a chance for his power being on an High-Godly scale out of the nature of Hearts.

Now, I'll also bring up the stuff that supports Nobodies having Nonexistent Physiology, making it consistent for Hearts to qualify as the "information/concept" as the extra aspect of existance that was deleted to qualify for High-Godly regeneration:

Lexaeus mentions that losing both light and darkness makes one disappear
"Nobodies: They are the rarely born incomplete existences from the cast off shell of a person the Heartless have stolen the heart from"
"Nomura: The ultimate goal of the Organization was to obtain a Kingdom Hearts of the hearts of people and become complete beings, and because Nobodies were a new kind of being beyond all expectations, said to be "nonexistent beings""
The KHII instruction manual also calls them nonexistent beings
"Master over Nothingness" (Xemnas is called this)
Saix (A Nobody) mentions that once they have KH they can finally exist
Xigbar reaffirms that they don't exist, Luxord also confirms that he (Axel) bet his non-existence as he sacrificed himself
Xemnas mentions over how they're "nothings" and they lack light and darkness
Sora calls the Nobodies has-beens
The KHIII glossary calls them "embodiments of emptiness"
Dengeki: Though its name has finally been revealed, what kind of group is the “Thirteenth Order”?
Nomura: In Kingdom Hearts 2, the Nobody will appear as something different compared to the Heartless. Those who command the “Nobody” are the Thirteenth Order. Though they are also “Nobody”, they are a more special type of being all-together.



And the most notable supporting statement comes from a reliable character that's a retired Keyblade Wielder and has been the leader and mentor of the Guardians of Light for decades, Yen Sid, stating directly over how Nobodies don't truly exist
 
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Bobsican said:
Basically we're right now talking about over how Sora has resurrection of himself and others out of the Power of Waking, however, now we're on the issue of up to what level of Regeneration it falls as, right now it would be Low-Godly as there's nothing to match it for an higher rating at the moment, however, as I've brought up, there's a chance for his power being on an High-Godly scale out of the nature of Hearts.

Now, I'll also bring up the stuff that supports Nobodies having Nonexistent Physiology, making it consistent for Hearts to qualify as the "information/concept" as the extra aspect of existance that was deleted to qualify for High-Godly regeneration:

Lexaeus mentions that losing both light and darkness makes one disappear
"Nobodies: They are the rarely born incomplete existences from the cast off shell of a person the Heartless have stolen the heart from"
"Nomura: The ultimate goal of the Organization was to obtain a Kingdom Hearts of the hearts of people and become complete beings, and because Nobodies were a new kind of being beyond all expectations, said to be "nonexistent beings""
The KHII instruction manual also calls them nonexistent beings
"Master over Nothingness" (Xemnas is called this)
Saix (A Nobody) mentions that once they have KH they can finally exist
Xigbar reaffirms that they don't exist, Luxord also confirms that he (Axel) bet his non-existence as he sacrificed himself
Xemnas mentions over how they're "nothings" and they lack light and darkness
Sora calls the Nobodies has-beens

Dengeki: Though its name has finally been revealed, what kind of group is the “Thirteenth Order”?
Nomura: In Kingdom Hearts 2, the Nobody will appear as something different compared to the Heartless. Those who command the “Nobody” are the Thirteenth Order. Though they are also “Nobody”, they are a more special type of being all-together.

And the most notable supporting statement comes from a reliable character that's a retired Keyblade Wielder and has been the leader and mentor of the Guardians of Light for decades, Yen Sid, stating directly over how Nobodies don't truly exist
Click to expand...
Lexeaus is talking to Riku about how he'll kill him if he doesn't embrace the darkness
Bob notice the word after incomplete and in context how it's saying they initially start with no hearts hence they're incomplete.
I don't know why you suddenly stopped quoting after non-existent beings, probably because he says right after that "the lack of background knowledge made it necessary for them to collect information relating to their own condition." Which is the part he's referring to when he says non-existent beings.
For one it's saying nonexistent beings in quotes, quotation marks are used for so-called and metaphors, also with how Nomura further elaborates on what he means about non-existent beings we ahve a definition of what it's means in context to KH. Finally, I'd like to see the japanese scan regarding this since English game manuals are hardly trustworthy.
"Master Over Nothingness" is not only the most non-evidence since it's merely a title for a character, but it also doesn't mean the king of nothingess you're thinking of. This official guide here explains how he wields the power of nothingness to create pure energy. Which leads to it talking about this kind of nothingness, not the literal concept of non-existence, aka ayin.
Dream drop distance revealed that all to be a lie and what he means by "truly, finally exist" is that they can have emotions again and feel something.
You ignore earlier in the scene that Luxord notes he put his existence on the line, as DDD reveals Xigbar was playing along with Xehanort.
I don't know why that final piece of evidence proves non-existent physiology, a has-been is someone that has no more significance, Sora doesn't like the organization, so naturally he'd insutl them.

Nomura's interview proves literally nothing other then that they're special, which yes they are since they're a different kind of enemy type. This provees nothing.

I've explained several times what's wrong with this Yen Sid scene but ig I need to break this down again:

^Yen Sid defines them as "an empty vessel whose heart has gotten away", vessels are containers, which is what a nobodies body is, a container, it's empty due to lacking a heart.

^Yen Sid notes here that the nobody is a spirit that goes on even as it's body fades from existence since I have yet to receive any actual refute to my soul point I'm going to continue using it. They are directly confirmed to have souls here, now let's look at the definition of nonexistent physiologies page:
"Nonexistent Physiology refers to the ability to paradoxically 'exist', yet lack any identifiable traits of existence, or exist outside of a particular scope of 'existence'. While true nonexistence in the philosophical sense is impossible to prove, lesser forms of the idea appear often in fiction."

Now let's look a type 1 of nonexistent physiology:
"1: Material Nonexistence: The lack of any conventional existence. Such a character will exist as something beyond the normal scope of the physical and metaphysical worlds, instead existing as an idea or other unconventional state. Such entities can be conceptualized by individuals, but do not exist in a physical or normal metaphysical form, such as a soul. In terms of binary, this would be a 0, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0."
^Literally states in it's own type you cannot exist as a soul to have nonexistent physiology type 1. It also states you need to exist as an idea of some other conventional state, which is not what a Nobody is, a Nobody is a spirit with a strong heart and will that brings itself back into existence while briefly lacking a heart. The only time a nobody is truly non-existent is when their body is erased at first, afterwards they are completely physical beings.

I was expecting far more arguments for NEP but let me just post all of the problems rq, let me list a few anti feats that completely disproves the idea of NEP Nobodies:

^Axel literally states here that they are not only still existing but that Vexen can be "nothing instead of a nobody".

Here we see nonexistent dusk having to go around the columns to go over to Ansem:


The non-existent Luxord gets breathed on by Jack:


And a plot point with KH 3 is they went back to being nobodies:
https://youtu.be/v1-rt_7W_3Q?t=267
https://youtu.be/ywEOBlh7mNs?t=446


So we know they have souls

We know that the NEP thing requires you don't exist in a physical or normal metaphyscial form, such as a soul

We know that NEP requires you lack any identifiable traits of existence.


The only real proof is them saying they don't exist which either in context is contradicted, or in context means something different entirely.

Hell, if you want further confirmation for this, look at one of Ansem's reports where this dude unironically says Namine is a non-being in the truest sense of the word:
www.khwiki.com

Ansem's Reports

Ansem's Reports are a series of pages collected throughout Kingdom Hearts and Kingdom Hearts II. The reports explore the mythology of the series, and focus largely on the nature of beings, what they become, and the nature of darkness and...
www.khwiki.com www.khwiki.com
Ansem's Secret Report 9:
"In other words, both the Nobody called Naminé and the Heartless—proof of a lost heart—are extremely unstable beings who lack the bodies needed to produce a Nobody. Therefore, they also lack Kairi's memories. One reason for this maybe that Kairi's heart did not return to the darkness when separated from her body, but rather migrated to another vessel...deep within Sora's heart.
That is, Naminé is an alter ego of the Kairi who has directly interfered with Sora's heart. Could this be why Sora and those hearts are connected to him were able to have their memories controlled?
She is a "non-being" in the truest sense of the word; having not even become a Nobody and with nowhere left to go, she is but the most fleeting of shadows."
Notice how he's saying she's even more of a non-being of a nobody cause she has nowhere left to go, and notice how the talk of non-existence and nothingness equates to not having something rather then being the literal concept of non-existence, aka ayin, and you'd see that NEP nobodies is not remotely consistent. Character statements contradict it, direct screen showings contradict it, and the only real proof I've seen from the side supporting it is that characters or Nomura who is just proving with every one of these interviews I'm being linked that he makes up this story as he goes along happen to say they don't exist or are nothing, when that means far more then just lacking a physical and metaphysical non-existence.
 
Last edited:
Bobsican said:
Basically we're right now talking about over how Sora has resurrection of himself and others out of the Power of Waking, however, now we're on the issue of up to what level of Regeneration it falls as, right now it would be Low-Godly as there's nothing to match it for an higher rating at the moment, however, as I've brought up, there's a chance for his power being on an High-Godly scale out of the nature of Hearts.

Now, I'll also bring up the stuff that supports Nobodies having Nonexistent Physiology, making it consistent for Hearts to qualify as the "information/concept" as the extra aspect of existance that was deleted to qualify for High-Godly regeneration:

Lexaeus mentions that losing both light and darkness makes one disappear
"Nobodies: They are the rarely born incomplete existences from the cast off shell of a person the Heartless have stolen the heart from"
"Nomura: The ultimate goal of the Organization was to obtain a Kingdom Hearts of the hearts of people and become complete beings, and because Nobodies were a new kind of being beyond all expectations, said to be "nonexistent beings""
The KHII instruction manual also calls them nonexistent beings
"Master over Nothingness" (Xemnas is called this)
Saix (A Nobody) mentions that once they have KH they can finally exist
Xigbar reaffirms that they don't exist, Luxord also confirms that he (Axel) bet his non-existence as he sacrificed himself
Xemnas mentions over how they're "nothings" and they lack light and darkness
Sora calls the Nobodies has-beens
The KHIII glossary calls them "embodiments of emptiness"
Dengeki: Though its name has finally been revealed, what kind of group is the “Thirteenth Order”?
Nomura: In Kingdom Hearts 2, the Nobody will appear as something different compared to the Heartless. Those who command the “Nobody” are the Thirteenth Order. Though they are also “Nobody”, they are a more special type of being all-together.

And the most notable supporting statement comes from a reliable character that's a retired Keyblade Wielder and has been the leader and mentor of the Guardians of Light for decades, Yen Sid, stating directly over how Nobodies don't truly exist
Click to expand...
@GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Ogbunabali @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898

Would you be willing to help out with evaluating this please?
 
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