• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Sora and Kairi Fate Manip Upgrade plus Type 8 Immortality

Status
Not open for further replies.
I wonder if this changes anything regarding how Kairi got into Sora's world back in KHI, for the record, this seems to have been detailed since KHIFM with Ansem's 11th report
Considering the previous quote I mentioned, this seems to lead to that if it wasn't for Aqua's spell, Kairi would have ended up in the same place Sora did after Re:Mind, so it may be minor fate manip or so after all.
And before you ask once more, it's fate manip as it's changing Kairi's destiny, respectively.
Oh, there's also this:
Then I would like to ask several questions about the story you changed. First, was Kairi’s arrival to Destiny Islands a coincidence or fate?

Nomura: It’s both. I was not able to illustrate it in the story itself. It is a delicate subject whether or not it is okay to talk about her life situation, but Ansem himself sent out Kairi from Hollow Bastion.
The reason why he sent out Kairi was to find the Keyblade. In the End of the The World’s prison, there is a is evidence that is left behind. Ansem believed that the young princess would end up where the Keyblade was no matter what. Thus the event of Kairi joining Sora and Riku is a coincidence and fate.
 
Last edited:
Nothing there states her destiny was changed, it just states it was fate for her to land there. There's a huge difference, I can show you the 50 consistent statement of a verse saying someone was fated to meet here, that doesn't mean they have fate manip, that means they're following natural fate, in KH fate is considered unchangeable and beyond one's control. What this text explains to me is Kairi was already pre-fated to have a spell that leads her to two friends. Nomura's line also is purposefully vague since he said it was both by coincidence and fate, which is a paradox.
 
Eh, normally I would argue that the scan you gave for the fate being unchangeable part isn't really that good of a justification as it's just Sora stating that a good leader just accepts that they can't control fate, which isn't necessarily related like that, but the Book of Prophecies is a thing and so on, so I guess you're right in the end.
 
Oh, I also found this:
-- Aqua lays a spell on Kairi’s pendant. Is it to protect her from the forces of darkness?

Nomura: Because of that pendant Kairi was sent to Destiny Island.

-- So Kairi going to Destiny Island wasn’t just an accident.

Nomura: What we wanted to show in the story this time was that “fate is inevitable”. Someday Kairi would go to a place where she would be protected by a hero of light.

...Would this keep the case the same as before?
 
That sounds like Nomura is now contradicting himself, do you have a link to both official interviews? First he says it's both an accident and fate, then he says "nah it's fate".

Either way, yes, same case.
 
The blue text cite each statement below it with a link (Click each blue text).
The one that contradicts was around before BbS released (And around the time KHI was released), and the latest one I cited is after BbS released.
 
Yeah I don't like the idea of using a dude that openly contradicts himself per game release, it gives off the vibe that he's making things up as he goes along. Add onto the already agree point you can't really change fate in KH and ye.
 
Well, that really applies to the entire series, and in any case, were it not for Aqua's spell, Kairi would have ended somewhere else.
Assuming it's not fate manip out of semantics, it should still fall as something else, not even dimensional travel as Terranort was the one that sent Kairi outside, unlike in Beast's case where his world collapsed and he remained around by sheer will.
 
That really sounds like Fate Manip as its based in making a desired outcome to be the case in the future, so it seems it could fall as such, even if heavily limited.
I know that the Book of Prophecies makes it be so that it was already written to be, but that can just be an higher degree of such power anyways, and so therefore it shouldn't just be discarded as nothing when it's clear it had an effect in the end.
 
No, it's moreso of an all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares situation. All fate manip makes a desired outcome, but not all desired outcome based abilities are fate manip. A major example I can think of is Sabrina who can cast a spell on a footabll to always go to Harvey no matter where it's thrown from. Also book of prophecies and Xehanort's statement directly deconfirm changing fate being a thing not that it's "more potent fate manip" unless you're saying book of prophecies is more potent then true KH which is just, no. The best thing for fate you have is Nomura contradicting himself, otherwise it falls more under the lines of what I explained far above.
 
In that case it's fine, thanks for the explanation.

Anyways, so there's no misunderstandings, how the type 8 immortality should be worded (Twice, once in the KHI key, then agian in the KHIII key, also with a mention in the CoM and KHII sections that he loses this) in Sora's profile?
 
What about the proper wording for each case? As I don't think it should remain the same in all of them.
 
KH 1
Immortality (Type 8. Reliant on his bond with Kairi, bringing him back from death or near death if she's near)
Com
All previous abilities minus immortality
KH 2
All previous abilities, along with the return of Immortality
KH 3
Immortality (Type 8. Reliant on his bond with Kairi, bringing him back from death or near death if she's aware of it)
 
Very well, I'll also remove the mentions of fate manip
Aqua should still keep Power Bestowal, although it'll be changed to what you've stated.
 
Oh wait, I found one last scan...
KINGDOM_HEARTS_III_20210121215810.png



This seems quite explicit, may I ask once more what was the reasoning for it being limited to Kairi being "aware", once more?
Just as I thought, it seems that the immortality is based on Kairi believing on him and her light.
 
Last edited:
Uhh... I already did, can't you see the picture?
Anyways, it notably mentions that... "Kairi never stopped believing in Sora, and the pure light within her---one of the New Seven Hearts---was what kept him from being extinguished."
Using game overs (Which aren't canon to begin with, basic game mechanics) as a justification to keep it limited like this (Kairi needing to be aware) isn't really reliable.
There's also how Sora and Kairi fight together Xehanort and he can still get a game over, which supports it blatantly just a game mechanic (The capability for Sora to "perish" without being able to come back) case on that regard.
 
Last edited:
Bobsican said:
Uhh... I already did, can't you see the picture?
Anyways, it notably mentions that... "Kairi never stopped believing in Sora, and the pure light within her---one of the New Seven Hearts---was what kept him from being extinguished."
Using game overs (Which aren't canon to begin with, basic game mechanics) as a justification to keep it limited like this (Kairi needing to be aware) isn't really reliable.
There's also how Sora and Kairi fight together Xehanort and he can still get a game over, which supports it blatantly just a game mechanic (The capability for Sora to "perish" without being able to come back) case on that regard.
Click to expand...
I can't see the picture either.
 
Bobsican said:
Uhh... I already did, can't you see the picture?
Anyways, it notably mentions that... "Kairi never stopped believing in Sora, and the pure light within her---one of the New Seven Hearts---was what kept him from being extinguished."
Using game overs (Which aren't canon to begin with, basic game mechanics) as a justification to keep it limited like this (Kairi needing to be aware) isn't really reliable.
There's also how Sora and Kairi fight together Xehanort and he can still get a game over, which supports it blatantly just a game mechanic (The capability for Sora to "perish" without being able to come back) case on that regard.
Click to expand...
No it wasn't there.

This is just a repeat of the previous argument and attempting to grab at a certain sentence in order to change an entire narrative.

Kairi saw Sora died and she refused to accept that thus she revives him, it's directly stated like that in the game, the journal entry merely supports that.

Game overs wasn't the only thing I used, I have no clue why you consciously ignored I also used Sora directly dying in KH1 as an example and that there's many moments where the narrative and scene portrays something as Sora can very well die and Kairi won't bring him back to life, game overs just support that.

Idk why you tried to use Xehanort when the entire reason Sora gets a game over is because he'd kill Kairi right after, you think he'd just randomly leave her alive? That makes no sense.
 
Oh sorry, I understand now on the reasons, anyways, Kairi only does that in KHI particularly in that way, in KHIII she never says anything like that, in fact she says that all she did was believe on him, which is consistent with the journal statement over the course of events.
As for the Xehanort game over, Kairi could still finish him off if we want to get there, anyways, as said before game overs are still bad, which is why they're portrayed as they are, but it doesn't mean it has to be taken as a legitimate evidence for the power to be limited like that, especially considering that they're not canon events to begin with.
 
I don't know why that'd matter, the fact of the matter is she acknowledges Sora's death which brings him back, and KH 1 directly shows she needs to be aware of Sora's death. This is just repeating an argument we've been over.

No. Kairi objectively cannot finish off Xehanort, MoM directly showcases this, that's not even an argument. She is in no way comparable to Xehanort. You can take any other interpretation but we're nto even going down the road of Kairi can finish Xehanort by herself. Game overs not being a canon event is irrelevnat to the fact that I was bringing them up because they're an event that CAN happen in the narrative as shown by the narrative scenes where Sora could very well die, so it can be used as legitimate evidence.
 
I mean, if we want to go like that, being able to continue after a game over from the last save point can also be used to support the immortality being at play, Sora does go back to a previous time in the past when Kairi did canonically use it in KHIII, after all.
And one thing is dying, another is resurrecting or having the "full death" being blocked from being the case.
 
Last edited:
Bobsican said:
I mean, if we want to go like that, being able to continue after a game over from the last save point can also be used to support the immortality being at play, Sora does go back to a previous time in the past when Kairi did canonically use it in KHIII, after all.
And one thing is dying, another is resurrecting or having the "full death" being blocked from being the case.
Click to expand...
Issue is I'm not saying the game over screen in itself is a canon play, I'm saying that him dying during adventure is treated as possible.

Sora's only ever been able to go back to the past via power of waking, so to assume he suddenly always had this ability with the game over affect would be introducing a new ability not only not elaborated in the series, but also that weirdly collides with the power of waking's ability.

"Full death" isn't a thing you either died or you didn't, in the case of Sora he died in KH 3, he was allowed to restore himself due to Kairi and bring himself back beacuse she knew he died, same with KH 1.
 
Bobsican said:
I mean, if we want to go like that, being able to continue after a game over from the last save point can also be used to support the immortality being at play, Sora does go back to a previous time in the past when Kairi did canonically use it in KHIII, after all.
And one thing is dying, another is resurrecting or having the "full death" being blocked from being the case.
Click to expand...
Continuing after a game over is also something Roxas and Riku had when they were playable, so that's not really a good argument. There is also Terra, Ventus and Aqua.
 
I mean, Chirithy says it explicitly, death in KH is when the body and the heart perish together (hence why I specified with "full death", a Nobody perishing doesn't usually translates into actual death, after all, not that it changes the point that much), which is what Kairi's power prevented from being the case.

Anyways, Kairi was aware that he was gone in KHI, but in KHIII we do know that the Demon Tide took Kairi way before Sora, so to say that she was aware of what happened to him (When she even says that all she did was hope that he wasn't gone) supports more that her mere act of believing (And her light as mentioned in the journal) are what protect Sora, the limitation of her "needing" to be aware only happens in KHI out of her being able to see it, so it arguably isn't even a limitation, in fact, for the KHI case, only her light seems to be what brought him back.
 
Bobsican said:
I mean, Chirithy says it explicitly, death in KH is when the body and the heart perish together (hence why I specified with "full death", a Nobody perishing doesn't usually translates into actual death, after all, not that it changes the point that much), which is what Kairi's power prevented from being the case.

Anyways, Kairi was aware that he was gone in KHI, but in KHIII we do know that the Demon Tide took Kairi way before Sora, so to say that she was aware of what happened to him (When she even says that all she did was hope that he wasn't gone) supports more that her mere act of believing (And her light as mentioned in the journal) are what protect Sora, the limitation of her "needing" to be aware only happens in KHI out of her being able to see it, so it arguably isn't even a limitation, in fact, for the KHI case, only her light seems to be what brought him back.
Click to expand...
A nobody perishing is death, it's just that they ress and re-create their whole again. Kari's powers prevented him from losing a form so he could re-build himself while in the final world.

This is repeating the same argument we've discussed far back above, yes the demon tide killed her prior to killing Sora, and? She's fully aware Sora wasn't going to win that fight. Nothing from your argument supports that she doesn't need to be aware of his death it just reaffirms her light allows him to ress. It doesn't only happen in KH 1, she's aware of his death in KH 3 too.

Also again, there's direct cutscenes that heavily imply Sora was going to die if he didn't succeed in something and these are specifically when Kairi isn't aware of him.
 
Last edited:
GiverOfThePeace said:
Also again, there's direct cutscenes that heavily imply Sora was going to die if he didn't succeed in something and these are specifically when Kairi isn't aware of him.
Click to expand...
Specifically? Is there such an statement confirming that beyond Kairi saying that she won't let him go?
 
Bobsican said:
Specifically? Is there such an statement confirming that beyond Kairi saying that she won't let him go?
Click to expand...
A statement confirming Kairi isn't aware of him dying? I don't know why we'd need that when she's not in the same area as him and all she knows is he's on a journey to rescue her during the events of KH 2.
 
I mean, Kairi was inside Sora for most of KHI, and he can still get a game over as well
 
What I'm saying is she's not fully conscious during the journey and that her heart getting released from him will still kill him as shown with the Riku Ansem cutscene and hell, in the after scene where she's revived. Also I'm pretty sure if he dies at all during his journey to a heartless that'd alternatively kill Kairi too since her heart would be taken to darkness.
 
What about dying to Xemnas then? Or is that after he freed Kairi? There's also multiple "Somebodies" with no control over hearts or darkness, such as the Cave of Wonders Guardian and the Queen of Hearts (I know, it's ironic)
In any case, none of the other characters seem to be aware of this mechanic potentially being able to resurrect Sora if it was really the case, except maybe Xigbar given how he hints it in KHIII, but then again, I can understand the scrutinity over doing limitations over this ability out of a lack of further details.
 
Last edited:
If you're going by KH 1, pretty sure Xemnas fight is post-freeing Kairi.

Cave of Wonders is corrupted by heartless and iirc heartless attack you during that fight

Queen of Hearts is the one I'll accept as a massive game mechanic as it makes no narrative sense for Sora to ever die during that fight or to the card enemies.

Them not being aware isn't the issue, the issue is the narrative treats it as Sora will die here if not saved or if he doesn't win this.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

StoneKillerz12
The Problems With Kingdom Heart's high-tier scaling (Part 1: True Kingdom Hearts Scaling)
Replies
16
Views
4K
StoneKillerz12
StoneKillerz12
Ayewale
  • Locked
2-B KH is a bit bad
2
Replies
63
Views
9K
LephyrTheRevanchist
LephyrTheRevanchist
Bobsican
Kingdom Hearts Tier 1 Hax Evaluations
Replies
21
Views
4K
Bobsican
Bobsican
Bobsican
Kingdom Hearts Low 1-C Ocean Between Re:Evaluation
2
Replies
78
Views
9K
Eseseso
Eseseso
ThatBoiRick
Transduality type 1 for True Kingdom Hearts
2
Replies
66
Views
6K
ThanatosX
ThanatosX
Back
Top