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Sora and Kairi Fate Manip Upgrade plus Type 8 Immortality

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Can you explain further the situation of the narrative treatment, such as some examples?

There's also the Shark in Atlantica and Sabor in Deep Jungle as others that can induce a game over without having the capability to actually affect the heart from what I recall.
 
Bobsican said:
Can you explain further the situation of the narrative treatment, such as some examples?

There's also the Shark in Atlantica and Sabor in Deep Jungle as others that can induce a game over without having the capability to actually affect the heart from what I recall.
Click to expand...
KH 2 has a scene where Xemnas is draining Sora's life and Riku needs to run over to Sora and save him in time or else he dies
KH 2 again where Sora is fighting Xemnas in his illusionary world and is having his life drained and the game warns you to go to the center building and remove it from yourself or you'll die

I think the common assumption given for those two cases is after Sora dies to them, the heartless come to collect, since they're both in areas where heartless spawn, unlike the card dudes.
 
Wait, Heartless collecting... can you explain how Kairi's power wouldn't cover those as well? Namely because in the KHIII case it protected Sora from the Demon Tower, which is made of Heartless.
 
Bobsican said:
Wait, Heartless collecting... can you explain how Kairi's power wouldn't cover those as well? Namely because in the KHIII case it protected Sora from the Demon Tower, which is made of Heartless.
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Since if you do hit a game over your heart leaves you from what I remember of KH 3, the metaphysical form of Sora is in a sense his "heart".
 
There were Heartless at the house fight however not with those kids and snowman but I didn't check to see if that is the case with those eels
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
Right outside of their house is heartless and the heartless spawn in the exact area the shark spawns when Sora returns
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Never claimed that they weren't Heartless there for the house and eels however getting a game over due to the kids and snowman is still possible when there are no Heartless around
 
Ican'tthinkof1goodname said:
Never claimed that they weren't Heartless there for the house and eels however getting a game over due to the kids and snowman is still possible when there are no Heartless around
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I responded to that point above, it's very reasonable to go by once Sora loses to them the heartless that are near those areas take his heart, since that's what's shown in the game over screen.
 
Uhhh... the game over screen just shows his body floating in some dark place as his heart is right above.
Anyways, I'm particularly fine with the current outcome out of a lack of lore specifying if Kairi could theorically bring Sora back from anywhere without needing to be "physically" aware.
 
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Bobsican said:
Uhhh... the game over screen just shows his body floating in some dark place as his heart is right above.
Anyways, I'm particularly fine with the current outcome out of a lack of lore specifying if Kairi could theorically bring Sora back from anywhere without needing to be "physically" aware.
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That's what I'm talking about with the game over screen.

For your second part are you saying you're fine with the limitation of Kairi needing to be aware or?
 
At least for now, yes, I no longer have anything else to bring up that you haven't evaluated.
 
Oh NVM, found one more thing to ask.
In the Final World, there's multiple other stars that seem to represent hearts beyond Naminé and the Nameless Star, which always comment on someone that's preventing them from moving on to death, many cases clearly implying that they haven't seen each other for a noticeable while (And some entirely based on self-regret). Meaning that Kairi doesn't need to know what caused Sora to die (or more accurately, to be dying) for him to be able to hang on the Final World. Thoughts on this?
And for the record for other purposes, it seems the reason Sora still had a physical appearance is out of him still having a purpose to fulfill, at least according to Naminé, respectively.
 
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Bobsican said:
Oh NVM, found one more thing to ask.
In the Final World, there's multiple other stars that seem to represent hearts beyond Naminé and the Nameless Star, which always comment on someone that's preventing them from moving on to death, many cases clearly implying that they haven't seen each other for a noticeable while (And some entirely based on self-regret). Meaning that Kairi doesn't need to know what caused Sora to die (or more accurately, to be dying) for him to be able to hang on the Final World. Thoughts on this?
And for the record for other purposes, it seems the reason Sora still had a physical appearance is out of him still having a purpose to fulfill, at least according to Naminé, respectively.
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From what I remember, literally none of them are capable of ressing back via others, this wouldn't even prove immortality if we used this, this would possibly be an arguable Ress rather then Immo since essentially he isn't reliant on Kairi, she just keeps him from fully moving on, allowing him time to ressurect himself. It'd be an arbitrary resistance to death manip (cause he still dies but doesn't pass on), and Resurrection.

Does this sound fine or do we want to stick with immortality?
 
Well, him being able to hang on to the Final World means that he didn't actually die as Chirithy explains, so it fits better as just immortality.
Now the issue comes on how it should be reworded with this new information. Any ideas?
 
Bobsican said:
Well, him being able to hang on to the Final World means that he didn't actually die as Chirithy explains, so it fits better as just immortality.
Now the issue comes on how it should be reworded with this new information. Any ideas?
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He technically died though, it's his metaphysical self that is still "alive", the body is is straight up gone and he needs to piece himself back together to revive himself. Especially with how others there are basically dead but cannot move on.
 
Actually in regards to Chrithy's statements, apparently someone said the japanese version was completely different. Can someone get that translated if that hasn't already happened?

Anyways what Chrithy said was he needs to find his body, Sora himself talking to Chrithy isn't his body.

I don't know how exactly to re-word it because this honestly doesn't seem like Immortality anymore but rather ress
 
Well, if you can find the japanese version of the cutscene I could ask @Cyberblader90 to contact someone that can do so.
And very well, I guess we'll need even more details to sort this out.
Edit: Found it, I still need a translation, however
 
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Not necessarily, what it seems to translate in japanese seems to leave it open-ended on that regard, however, it does mean that the official English version of the statement can't be used as strong evidence to particularly support Hearts being of that nature, and in both cases it is confirmed that Chirithy didn't mean it literally, leaving a hint over Hearts not being of corporeal nature, respectively.

Anyways, we still are left to deal with how to index Sora's Immortality/High Godly Regeneration.
Also...

-- There's an impressive attention to detail in the translations of Square Enix games. How is the translation progressing and what is the process like?

Nomura: We've spent a lot of time making preparations so the original text has been translated as directly as possible, whereas for the different Disney worlds, we've asked the translators to keep the original dialogue from the films.
The translation for Kingdom Hearts 3 is done internally, and we follow a multi-layered process where Co-Director Tai Yasue, who speaks English, will check the text first, and then Disney will look it over again later.

It seems that Nomura gave a ton of supervision over how the translations went, making it seem that "conceptually" was an intended way to translate it, and the translator of the japanese version as mentioned in my previous post, remarks how "conceptually" is a possible way to translate what's said on that part.
 
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Bobsican said:
Not necessarily, what it seems to translate in japanese seems to leave it open-ended on that regard, however, it does mean that the official English version of the statement can't be used as strong evidence to particularly support Hearts being of that nature, and in both cases it is confirmed that Chirithy didn't mean it literally, leaving a hint over Hearts not being of corporeal nature, respectively.

Anyways, we still are left to deal with how to index Sora's Immortality/High Godly Regeneration.
Also...

-- There's an impressive attention to detail in the translations of Square Enix games. How is the translation progressing and what is the process like?

Nomura: We've spent a lot of time making preparations so the original text has been translated as directly as possible, whereas for the different Disney worlds, we've asked the translators to keep the original dialogue from the films.
The translation for Kingdom Hearts 3 is done internally, and we follow a multi-layered process where Co-Director Tai Yasue, who speaks English, will check the text first, and then Disney will look it over again later.

It seems that Nomura gave a ton of supervision over how the translations went, making it seem that "conceptually" was an intended way to translate it, and the translator of the japanese version as mentioned in my previous post, remarks how "conceptually" is a possible way to translate what's said on that part.
Click to expand...
Nothing about that sounds "open-ended", Chrithy's just saying his body isn't literally in pieces. The english version can't be used irregardless now.

Bob, various companies give in-depth translations for games nowadays, that doesn't really help anything. The japanese word there is clearly not conceptual.
 
It not being the word conceptual doesn't mean it can't mean what the word "conceptual" would, but in any case, this doesn't change anything as then we would need another kind of proof for this to be assumed to be the case.
"形式上/けいしきじょう/Keishiki-jō means something like like "in form; ceremonial; for form's sake; pro forma" according to Jisho and another dictionary site I had to use to make sure I was reading the word right.
Basically it seems that the way Chirithy was talking about Sora's state in the Final World about being in pieces is saying it as a formal way of saying Sora's in pieces. Not sure how the translators got "conceptually in pieces" tbh. I guess trying to put Keishiki-jō in a way that it could be used wouldn't fit right or make enough sense to explain Sora's state in the Final World?"
I'm not sure if you went ahead and readed the link I gave over the user's comment over the translation, but I'm leaving it here directly to be safe, and the kind of definitions given for the japanese terms given seem to fit what to use the word "conceptual" could with the context given in particular, making the English version potentially a more non-vague variant of this statement to consider given the supervision applied on official stuff. KH is Disney, and Disney's main language is English, so I'm not even sure if you can say that Japanese is the "main" language to give priority to.

Also, there's still the issue of how to index the Immortality/High Godly regeneration on Sora's profile, as said before.
 
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I don't even know what you were trying to say here, "It not being the word conceptual doesn't mean it can't mean what the word "conceptual"". This is a massive oxymoron and ignoring that the scene does not say that at all. If it does not have the word and does not say that in the original translation we cannot use the mistranslated text, simple as that.

The translator themself directly says they don't know where they got conceptual from, and that they likely just tried to mix stuff around. That's the very exact way a mistranslation happens. I really do not care what KH is connected too, it's original game and scrirpt is Japanese, it's objectively the Japanese version that's the main langauge. This still seems to just fit a specific form of ress to me, not immortality.
 
Oh well, at least it doesn't really remove conceptual stuff from the table as the japanese stuff simply leaves it vague as said before, rather than fully deconfirm it.
Anyways, how should the resurrection be worded for indexing? It should be in the KHIII key respectively for Sora's profile.
 
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It deconfirms in the context that now there's literally no mention of conceptual in the verse asides from Light and Darkness themselves.

"Resurrection (Kairi's bond with Sora allows him to re-piece his body back together if he is ever killed)"
 
Well, from the statement we do know that Sora's body wasn't literally on pieces, what it can be beyond that is unknown by itself if we're going to leave the English localization at a side.
Anyways, I'll apply the change later on, as it seems that nothing else of what was already agreed on changes.
 
Okay, so I was asked by @Bobsican to come on here to maybe give my thoughts or something regarding the matter of what Chirithy said to Sora in the original Japanese version to that of the English version.

As was requested, I checked through the cutscene timeline specified on the thread of here (From 8:16:22 - 8:18:55), comparing it with the English version (8:17:45 - 8:20:15) for...comparison sakes.

Making sure I got the Kanji's and characters right, down to making sure what I was hearing is correct too. Everything in the two minutes Sora had in his convo with Chirithy that matches up more or less what is explained (i.e Heart and body that perishes together just die but those who persist go to Final World, Sora's heart and body had perished yet something happens to also keep him from completely dying, all that sort).

The part that seems to be the topic here is what Chirithy said when Sora asked why he was in pieces. As we should be aware, Chirithy explains to Sora he was "conceptually in pieces". But the Japanese version instead says this as Bob linked above:

[チリシィ] いや 実際には違うけどね 形式上そう言っただけで

[Chirithy] No. I don't mean it literally. I meant it formally.

Another person also translated the same line in their own way and got this: "No, however in reality it is different, I merely said that for formality/for form sake"

Both translations are still using 形式上/Keishiki-jō as per the line Chirithy spoke. This is the only one that's different from what was spoken in the Japanese version. Everything else before and after it is still the same regarding Sora's state and him being in the Final World. What exactly Chirithy could be saying is unknown to me but it would seem that he's saying it figuratively that Sora is in "pieces" but is otherwise fine. If it at least helps, even the lines after it about Chirithy saying that the Final World being a place only hearts can reach yet Sora still having some kind of "form" there is still there in the Jap to Eng games.

But that one line regarding Sora's state is the only one that seems to differ from what the people put in the overseas/ENG version of KH3. So...IDK. Maybe it does apply, or it doesn't because of the term used by Chirithy to describe Sora's state.
 
Thank you for your analysis, and it's exactly like I thought, nothing here alludes to conceptual so it cant be used for proof of conceptual state.
 
If they, Square Enix team, were to use conceptually they would have used something like 概念 (concept, notion, general idea) but since it's not there well...
 
That makes me wonder about the nature of the pieces Sora needed to recomplete himself. Just some curiosity on my part.
 
Beats me. Sora is still stated to be in "pieces" in both versions. Just the context and nature of his state as Chirithy noted seems to be different.

All that's known is that Sora is still there because something (Kairi iirc) was keeping him in place from vanishing to nothing, and that his body was in some way "transported" to the Final World, which is a place that only hearts can be in or whatever as Chirithy explained.
 
It might be worth a shot to see what's new...or changed from that one. If it's anything worthwhile, I'll see what I can find about it and post it tomorrow.
 
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