Sonic the Hedgehog Speed CRT: Gotta Go Even Faster

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Your only proof there aren’t any stars is that you can’t see them so I don’t really think that’s any better.

It is because unlike you, we actually provided proof for it

There are other feats to go with anyway, why not just discard this one.

Because we don't need to oblige to your preferences. Just because you think it's invalid doesn't mean it is and unless you provide proof to why, there is no arguing here

 

[JJSliderman]

You didn’t provide proof though, you just said there are no stars because you can’t see them.
That’s not proof, I at least tried to show screenshots of the dots on the sidebar that I noticed.

 

[Theuser789]

there are signs in the fight that are similar to signs of celestial bodies in other pieces of fiction

Except this is only your word, the word that people don't agree with, your words before:

"If your only argument is that you can’t see them then the argument is meaningless because it’s subjectivity vs subjectivity."

Your argument is that you can see them, meanwhile several people disagree, 7 interpretations beat a single one, 7 subjectivity vs 1 subjectivity

 

[JJSliderman]

it would kind of help if some of the people who upvoted weren’t in the Sonic echo chamber.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

You didn’t provide proof though, you just said there are no stars because you can’t see them.

I don't need to prive you anything as I'm not even arguing. Just telling you that headcanon won't get you anywhere, and unless you will come with actual proof, I have no reason to debate you

That’s not proof, I at least tried to show screenshots of the dots on the sidebar that I noticed.

Your entire argument was based on nothing but speculation and headcanon. Prove that they are stars with actual scenes from canon saying that they are, and we'll have something

 

[JJSliderman]

Prove that space, a place filled with almost one sextillion stars, contains at least one star in this background; a background that contains several images that are commonly used to represent stars in media? I mean, I feel like I gave it my best shot, and you are the one who has to prove there are absolutely no stars or other celestial bodies in the background, given you are using that as the justification for the destination in the Exception calc.

 

[Theuser789]

it would kind of help if some of the people who upvoted weren’t in the Sonic echo chamber.

Fallacy

One thing to keep in mind, is that even if someone is using a fallacy, it does not necessarily mean that their argument is not true. It merely means that they are attempting to argue for it improperly. These are the examples that apply to this wiki, with the original list written by Endless...

vsbattles.fandom.com

You truly have no more arguments, I could say a lot about you and your little friends and their refusal to accept a fast Sonic, so don't go there, cope

Also Aila is not part of the "echo chamber" (Lmao, as if I don't disagree with half what they say), they literally barely comment on Sonic and are new

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Prove that space, a place filled with almost one sextillion stars, contains at least one star in this background;

These voids literally barely contains any galaxies, let alone stars,

a background that contains several images that are commonly used to represent stars in media?

Still isn't a proof, especially in such galactic scales when these could very well by nearby galaxies, but I ain't claiming they are with no proof they are that, unlike you

And I don't care what other pieces of media say. Whataboutism will get you nowhere

I mean, I feel like I gave it my best shot, and you are the one who has to prove there are absolutely no stars or other celestial bodies in the background, given you are using that as the justification for the destination in the Exception calc.

The proor is in the blog for the calc. Just because you don't like it doesn' lt mean it's not there, and it's not my personal job to convince you. You're the one trying to debunk a feat that was accepted by multiple people including staff member. Stop trying to shift the burden on proof on other people and come with legit arguments with proofs from the game

 

[ShakeResounding]

it would kind of help if some of the people who upvoted weren’t in the Sonic echo chamber.

Nice poisoning the well fallacy, JJackass

 

[JJSliderman]

The blog didn’t give any proof, it just said “there are obviously no stars in the clip”, like that was just as obvious as the possibility there were stars. There seems to be a strange definition of “proof” going on there.

You truly have no more arguments, I could say a lot about you and your little friends and their refusal to accept a fast Sonic, so don't go there, cope

Go on and say it then. I am someone who cares about this franchise in vs, and that’s precisely why I don’t want fake feats to be accepted as real. Trying to argue this feat is 100% legitimate is blatantly false, because you have no actual proof either. Your entire argument for it being legit is that it has more support, when that is meaningless in this scenario.

You can call it a fallacy if you want, but it doesn’t change the fact that this feat entirely hinges on the assumptions of eyesight until further evidence that will never happen is given. If this is the proof standard that’s acceptable, then do as you please with it.

Other feats I can accept or understand, but not this one.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

The blog didn’t give any proof, it just said “there are obviously no stars in the clip”, like that was just as obvious as the possibility there were stars.

Once you get to exception, you can clearly see there are no stars to be seen anywhere, so yeah, there are no stars there

There seems to be a strange definition of “proof” going on there.

Yeah. I didn't knew proof was actually headcanon and baseless assumptions. But U guess for you headcanon is the proof so I'm not surprised

Go on and say it then. I am someone who cares about this franchise in vs, and that’s precisely why I don’t want fake feats to be accepted as real. Trying to argue this feat is 100% legitimate is blatantly false, because you have no actual proof either.

Like it or not, the feat got evaluated and accepted by multiple staff members and people knowledgeable on the game. Just because you dislike it doesn't mean it's not true.

You say they're "blatantly false", yet fails to provide a single piece of evidence to support your claims, and expect everyone to just take your word because you said so. I can do that too, and say that there are no stars there, and expect people to just agree without any proof to my claims, and in case someone disagree, I'll whine about it and then poison the well when it fails

Your entire argument for it being legit is that it has more support, when that is meaningless in this scenario.

No. The arguments for it are in the blog. Just because you disagree doesn't mean there is none

 

[Theuser789]

Now a appeal to authority? "Oh, only I, the real and best Sonic fan can save the franchise and stop those filthy wankers from putting those nasty fake feats in those wikia pages, how would they fare without me to guide then." We all are Sonic fans here who care about the series, that's why we put work into researching feats and improving things, something I don't see you doing, you just sit there on your pretentious throne going into every thread that actual people put into work on researching to stonewall them becausse you have the belief that each person needs to serve and convince you in particular, then ***** off after you get "convinced", I would have far more respect for your crusade if you actually were helpful in any ******* way instead of being a pretentious roadblock that thinks threads only exist to serve you in particular. Your argument is by your own words is "If your only argument is that you can’t see them then the argument is meaningless because it’s subjectivity vs subjectivity", if both of our points are subjective, then what is more supported is the better one, your opinion isn't more important than everyone else, this thread doesn't exist for you in particular, get of your high horse and gain some humility

Yes, I call it a fallacy because it is one, in fact you are "poisoning the well" by claiming everyone against you is part of a echo chamber, an argument from belief and emotion, since your argue based on your beliefs "exception isn't a void because I say there are stars" "I don't believe this feat is true so therefore it isn't, I need to be convinced" and from emotion by trying to argue that because you care about the series your aguments against "fake feats" are necessarily better than the rest, as if noone else cares about it

Other feats I can accept or understand, but not this one.

Cool, you don't need to accept if, the world doesn't revolve around you

 

[JJSliderman]

I never said it was an appeal to authority what.
I just said I was a fan and I didn’t want inaccurate information, stop twisting my words.

You can’t “clearly” see there are no stars because you can’t put your view of the scene onto everyone else.

You say I have headcanon and baseless assumptions when your argument about there being no stars is the same deal.

You keep saying there are arguments in the blog when those arguments aren’t based on factuality either, stop bringing up the blog as if it exonerates those points.

Yeah, I’m the one who needs to gain humility because I dare to actually make arguments to try and fully grasp what makes these feats legitimate. Or I guess we can just sit and watch the endless FRA trains based on the same baseless speculation you criticize me for go by and do nothing.

People don’t need to convince me, I’m just trying to form an unbiased judgement and not let my interest in the series lead me to accept these upgrades blindly. Sometimes the people who care the most about something need to be the biggest critics of it. I’m not going to sit and say I agree with something when I don’t, I kind of expect to be taken seriously as a human being instead of being claimed as pretentious and selfish.

I’ll take back my points on the echo chamber and whatnot, I made them because I had the seemingly incorrect assumption most people on this thread were Sonic supporters. I do this with every franchise I support, trying to be as unbiased as possible and see the counter arguments (because that makes the arguments stronger). I understand why it could be insulting to some, though.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

@Theuser789 and @JJSliderman just calm down and try to understand each other's PoVs. Highlighting each others tone and language will only cause more circular arguments and potentially make tempers flare!

As for everyone else just chill off this CRT for a little while. There's a reason Sonic CRTs sometimes cause a sense of dread.

As for myself I more or less agree with additions however we should try to make this environment less hostile, ok? (Two wrongs don't make a right).

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

You can’t “clearly” see there are no stars because you can’t put your view of the scene onto everyone else.

You say I have headcanon and baseless assumptions when your argument about there being no stars is the same deal.

There are no stars in the zone once they actually reach exception. And no celestial bodies either aside from few small asteroids. And unless you can prove that there are stars in the zone, then you got no arguments against it. The description of the zone in the Sonic wikia has also no mentions of stars whatsoever

Yeah, I’m the one who needs to gain humility because I dare to actually make arguments to try and fully grasp what makes these feats legitimate.

Yeah. You need to gain humilty because you need to stop treating your opinions and assumptions as undisputed facts and that your opinion isn't any more valid than anyone else's, including those who played the game and evaluated these feats (which I doubt you did given your questions)

Or I guess we can just sit and watch the endless FRA trains based on the same baseless speculation you criticize me for go by and do nothing.

How our supposed "baseless assumptions" are any different then yours then? Since you didn't provided anything either

 

[Theuser789]

I never said it was an appeal to authority what.

Sometimes the people who care the most about something need to be the biggest critics of it

Lmao, I said you were making an appeal to authority by using this "I am a super duper unbiased fan that is just trying to help, it's not my fault those filthy wankers are trying to make a FRA train" logic, which you still ******* are btw, it's like you didn't read the comment

Yeah, I’m the one who needs to gain humility because I dare to actually make arguments to try and fully grasp what makes these feats legitimate.

Or I guess we can just sit and watch the endless FRA trains based on the same baseless speculation you criticize me for go by and do nothing.

I’m not going to sit and say I agree with something when I don’t, I kind of expect to be taken seriously as a human being instead of being claimed as pretentious and selfish.

I do this with every franchise I support, trying to be as unbiased as possible and see the counter arguments (because that makes the arguments stronger).

See? This self-centered view that this thread exists for you and you only, you are the only one who can stop the evil biased FRA train, and noone else can, if people don't agree with me they must be a mindless horde, I am the only unbiased free-thinker. News-flash, you haven't made any arguments, all you are doing is an argument from belief "I believe there are stars so you are wrong" and then expecting people to prove your opinion wrong, and then acts as if you are the greatest and most unbiased party that simply can't be understood, drop this victim complex and grow up, just because you believe something is wrong doesn't mean people have to prove that belief wrong, you aren't special, I am literally treating you as a human being, you want to be treated as a king which can claim something is right or wrong by word alone

People don’t need to convince me

You say this and yet...

I’m just trying to form an unbiased judgement and not let my interest in the series lead me to accept these upgrades blindly.

I’m not going to sit and say I agree with something when I don’t

And you act as if you in particular needs to accept and agree with this thread because your opinion by itself is law. If you stopped being the equivalent of a freeloader that just takes other people work and arguments for yourself and actually supported those series other than being just a roadblock to see what "counter-arguments" they have as if all the work they do only serves to you in particular, as if you are the ultimate judge, people would actually respect your opinion more

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Snip

Snip#2

Cool it already, you're not going to change his PoV by dog-piling on him.

 

[JJSliderman]

Go ahead and go through with this then, if you think my opinion is invalid then I can’t argue with that. I am not in control of this thread and never was, you’re absolutely right. I’m just trying to get information out of this that I can use later. If I gave off the impression I was trying to control anyone then, I’m sorry. I just wanted to see if there was anything wrong with the arguments, and most of them are solid outside of the Exception part, which is still fairly questionable to me alone. I should have been talking as if I was referring to myself alone, because that’s all I have been doing in retrospect. That doesn’t necessarily mean I agree with some of the points you and others have made, but it is true you have more support behind your position.

I never expected to be treated like I was better than everyone else, I just saw some elements that didn’t add up with Exception and I felt like no attempt was even made to maybe, look into it, when I perceived it as simple to do. Granted, I will say I was incorrect on all the other negative assumptions I made in regards to Time Eater and BG, so I understand why my points weren’t taken seriously here. I just don’t think it’s fair to call my arguments in this instance baseless headcanon, and then turn around and use similar arguments to defend the current position (btw where is it shown there are no stars when they enter exception? The transition screen? I’m genuinely not seeing the proof there are definitively no stars, and wikis aren’t going to point out the background of a DS arena fight in painstaking detail so using the wiki isn’t a great argument either).

In terms of playing Rush I, don’t see how that’s relevant. I don’t need to play the game to see the background and understand the context when story summaries exist, and I never tried to imply my speculations were any different in quality to others (or at least, I didn’t try any more than the people defending their speculations for Exception specifically)

 

[Theuser789]

@Theuser789 and @JJSliderman just calm down and try to understand each other's PoVs. Highlighting each others tone and language will only cause more circular arguments and potentially make tempers flare!

As for everyone else just chill off this CRT for a little while. There's a reason Sonic CRTs sometimes cause a sense of dread.

As for myself I more or less agree with additions however we should try to make this environment less hostile, ok? (Two wrongs don't make a right).

Alright, I am not going to reply to JJ unless he actually shows a counter argument that isn't from belief, I keep saying his opinion by itself doesn't matter so it's time to make that true

 

[JJSliderman]

Being fair, I agree with or understand basically all the other feats, and I can’t really offer up any other arguments outside of just “it looks like there are stars in the background of Exception”, which is going against “it doesn’t look like there are stars in the background of exception” that has more support. I don’t necessarily agree with the latter viewpoint, but there’s no value to be gained from it anymore by arguing. So, I don’t have anything else to say.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Cool it already, you're not going to change his PoV by dog-piling on him.

You're right. If so then I think it's best for me to unsubscribe from this thread for a while. I already expressed my agreement earlier

 

[Theuser789]

Bump

 

[ShakeResounding]

I suppose I'll throw my agreement in here as well. For Base Forms, we might want to sort out who should scale to the new Speed ratings. I've got an attempt at a comprehensive list below, lemme know what I should adjust. I've linked some clips to them that I think can be used in their justification section, some from the OP itself and others I've gathered.

>31.14c (FTL+): Silver and Omega

>31.14c normally (FTL+), >124.56c with Boost/V. Maximum Overdrive Attack (MFTL): Infinite, Post-Timeskip Modern Sonic, Shadow, Metal Sonic (?)

>124.56c normally (MFTL), >498.24c with Boost (MFTL): Post-Forces (Current) Modern Sonic, Mania Timeline Sonic, The Rookie, and the Death Egg Robot (Forces)

I think this is everybody notable, hopefully I didn't miss anything. I'll edit it as necessary.

 

[Theuser789]

Idk if Classic and the Rookies should scale to the Mega Death Egg Robot since in the final phase modern Sonic is the one leading them, Metal (and Zavok) would only scale if you believe clones=originals, if not then no

 

[ElixirBlue]

I agree with the OP but recommend to Sonic Scholars to evaluate the ratings so other less knowledgeables are able to understand to logic behind the ratings.

As for scaling, I agree with Shake's inital assessment but User does make a point about Classic and the Rookie not necessarily scaling to Sonic in the final battle. Unsure about Phantom Ruby clones equal the real one, since Shadow took care of his clone fairly easily.

 

[BlastX]

I don't think it's a problem for those two to scale, they were fighting the first form just fine (and that's when Eggman made the statement) and they still kept up with Modern Sonic just fine during the final phase.

But maybe a "Possibly" rating is fine.

 

[Theuser789]

Unsure about Phantom Ruby clones equal the real one, since Shadow took care of his clone fairly easily.

If you are suggeting originals>clones them they both would scale since my point is that the clones could be faster

I don't think it's a problem for those two to scale, they were fighting the first form just fine (and that's when Eggman made the statement) and they still kept up with Modern Sonic just fine during the final phase.

Infinite almost blitzes the custom OC, they are painting after the Metal fight, and the robot is stationary in both of their phases, so no, I honestly doubt they even scale to Infinite

 

[BlastX]

The Infinite things only applies to them earlier in the story, they could have gotten stronger and faster just like Modern Sonic did.

Also if they were way slower I doubt Modern would have need them in his fight.

 

[BlastX]

Also even if it's stationary it doesn't mean it's attacks get way slower, they still react to all of first forms attacks (it even moves to strick them down with it's fists).

 

[Remus1998]

>124c normally (MFTL), >489c with Boost (MFTL): Post-Forces (Current) Modern Sonic, Mania Timeline Sonic, The Rookie, and the Death Egg Robot (Forces)

I think this is everybody notable, hopefully I didn't miss anything. I'll edit it as necessary.

Wouldn't it be >496c with Boost because it's a 4x multiplier

 

[Theuser789]

they could have gotten stronger and faster just like Modern Sonic did.

Headcanon and conjecture without full evidence, unlike Sonic who has, as seen with the Double Boost, Sonic can empower them and vice-versa, maybe that's why they needed them

 

[BlastX]

Why would it? Mania should have Accelerated Development like his Modern Self because he learned the Homing Attack and Boost from just seeing them once and becoming much stronger than his Modern Self was at his age.

And again, they still react to First Form Attacks, also I think the Avatar can react to Infinite's attacks when they take the lead (I need to check on youtube since sadly I don't have the game anymore).

 

[Theuser789]

I was talking about the avatar getting stronger. Honestly I don't even know if Sonic by himself should scale to this, since literally two stages beforehand he wasn't capable of blitzing a weakned Infinite without the Double Boost, it might just be a teamwork amp

 

[BlastX]

No, the Infinite that got beat by the Double Boost had regained his full power (he says the Ruby recharged and everything) Sonic was kicking weakened Infinite's Ass by himself.

He pretty much says he gets stronger every second so prolly is AD kicked in again towards the end, probably the same with Classic.

We can either give the Avatar AD too, regard it as an inconsistency (which I disagree but whatever) or divide the feat by Three and scale the playable trio to that.

 

[Theuser789]

Yes, base Sonic by himself couldn't blitz Infinite while he was weakned, you are arguing Sonic was as fast in base as his fastest move, that never happened in such a short time in the series before

 

[BlastX]

Couldn't he still dodge and react to Infinite's VMOA?

And he still reacted to the Death Egg Robot attacks, the other two did (and before you say it was a teamwork amp, the other two fought it by their own in the first phase and there's no reason to say it's attacks got dramatically lower than it's own speed).

Also i'm not sure how fighting together besides their combined boosts makes them faster, their normal speeds should remain normal when fighting together.

 

[Theuser789]

So? We literally put in the OP it's reactions are higher than their actual speed

Reactions are higher, and they only catch up to the robot when the three of them are together maybe it shouldn't even be scaled above

 

[BlastX]

I still don't see why fighting together beyond doing Combo Boosts amps their speeds but sure, whatever.

I guess we can just divide their speed in the final fight by 3 and scale the playable trio individually to that.

 

[Theuser789]

Don't see why the division would be linear

 

[BlastX]

Then they downscale from it, IDK what other option we have.

We can also just slap a Possibly to the rating.