Sonic the Hedgehog Speed CRT: Gotta Go Even Faster

[Maverick_Zero_X]

That would require PW to be on the very edge of the universe which ah.

Well that’s not really proven by anything.

Except the statement saying it’s across the universe…

I don’t recall there being many universal destruction statements in the game itself outside of TE erasing space and time, which could just be in localized areas like we see with the levels in game. Even in the final battle the only artifacts and geometry we see are from those levels, as opposed to pieces of the entire universe.

Yeah, it could just be erasing localized areas of the universe… if we didn’t have statements saying it erased the entire space-time continuum…

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Literally the first thing Time Eater does is to erase Classic Sonic's universe. And then Modern's

 

[JJSliderman]

And the evidence for it erasing entire universes is from these strategy guides.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

And the evidence for it erasing entire universes is from these strategy guides.

…So? Can I see some contradictions?

 

[Theuser789]

Seems like you want to downgrade Time Eater's low 2-C rating in general...

 

[JJSliderman]

The fact that all we see in White Space are individual areas segmented from each other, and nothing from any area outside those specified levels.

 

[JJSliderman]

Seems like you want to downgrade Time Eater's low 2-C rating in general...

No I think that’s fine because it was keeping these levels erased until it was defeated and it was causing the destruction of the world with its actions to some degree.

I just cast doubt on it destroying the entirety of Sonic’s world in one go.

 

[JED]

"I cast doubt" argument from incredulity is not an argument. You need actual legit evidence that contradicts the most likely interpretation.

 

[Theuser789]

Wouldn't the fact that, assuming you are right, it erases one snapshot of Sonic's universe each time, meaning that it's still a 3-A range attack speed and thus support even more the rating? Since it's not a low 2-C range feat anymore?

 

[JJSliderman]

Idk why it destroying the universe in one go is the most likely interpretation, when we see that there are just separate areas present in White Space.
But I’ll admit that the universal destruction interpretation is a fair one.

Same with the Dodon Pa thing, I feel like the statement can be interpreted in multiple ways given the vague nature of “across the universe” and how that’s the only line indicating PW’s position in any way, but I understand the viewpoint.

I will, however, continue to disagree with using Babylon Garden and Exception as speed feats.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

It’s clear the tiny level select areas seen in the hub world aren’t actually the limit to these areas. Once we actually enter the levels the contents of outer space are shown; it would be impossible for that to be in White Space if the Time Eater’s destruction was limited to Green Hill Zone and such.

So nah, “the Hub World only has buildings and hills” isn’t really a valid argument. Actually, the fact that Planet Wisp is across the universe yet was affected by the Time Eater’s destruction means it must’ve affected more than the small levels

 

[JJSliderman]

Yeah okay, that’s fair.

I still stand by my points on the other feats though.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Same with the Dodon Pa thing, I feel like the statement can be interpreted in multiple ways given the vague nature of “across the universe” and how that’s the only line indicating PW’s position in any way, but I understand the viewpoint.

"Across" literally means from one side to the other. So no, this is actually a very clear statement

 

[Theuser789]

All stages in Generations show they have a sky and stars, even assuming he only erases in one time snapshot per time that's still 3-A range

What you think is better irrelevant, all your other points about all the feats have been countered above

 

[JJSliderman]

No one really countered anything about Exception or Babylon Garden though.

 

[Theuser789]

That's wrong, the transition actualy looks different with Super Sonic and Burning Blaze versus base characters


(0:00 for base, 29:15 for Super)


The Black Hole is objectively out of the Earth as seen in the game
(27:25)

It could simply just be that strong, it's a Black Hole afterall, those don't have limited range and can be gigantic, this is a non sequitur

List of most massive black holes - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Literally scroll up

 

[JJSliderman]

Black hole doesn’t even look that far away from Earth, and if it was really that massive then I’m pretty sure it would affect more than just the planet like Tails said. And the only evidence it’s light years away is some background effect that goes against everything the story and even that cutscene shows.

I’m confused as to why the transition screen is even being used, I know it’s argued those lights are galaxies but like, what. Is it just because they’re traveling to a dimensional rift? I’m just not seeing how they’re flying past galaxies there.

 

[Theuser789]

When does the black hole look not that far from Earth? In the scene I posted? Because in that scene Babylon Guarden is descending to Earth, so of course it's not that far away, did you want them to show the entire trip back? Because the meaning is obvious. Tails never said only the Earth would be affected and nothing else, of course he was worried about the place he was in, you are making restrictions up to make up a narrative that a spaceship that is straight up told later in the game made aliens crash into Earth can't fly into space because it "breaks the narrative"



That's not the argument, you didn't read the blog, read it first before making claims, this makes you look like you are against those feats only out of principle

 

[JJSliderman]

Uh no, it’s not breaking the narrative if Tails was making a big deal out of the black hole destroying the planet, which all of a sudden went light years away and would affect more than just the planet.

Honestly if the black hole was affecting the planet that far away maybe it should be a lot higher than what it is rn but I digress, it being a spaceship doesn’t necessarily mean it traveled that far away for no reason. The ship even uses warping technology in an earlier cutscene, so saying it traveled the entire distance physically might not even be true.

I get the argument of Exception is they’re traveling to the edge of the universe, but idk why that would be the case. All we know is that they were fighting in a dimensional rift formed by the merge of the two universes.

 

[Theuser789]

Tails was not only worried about the planet, you are making a narrative to restrict the black hole because you don't want to accept the calc, Tails says "at this rate, the whole planet will be sucked into the black hole", this statment literally shows the black hole was getting stronger and would become a very big threat, I genuily do not see your argument on why the black hole can't just be that strong, it's a black hole that was becoming stronger, it didn't have a set limit, Babylon Guarden only went to space after everyone entered it, why would Tails need to say "x planets are in danger"? Like seriously, the only one breaking the narrative is you because you don't like new view points



That's a non sequitur, and the black hole objectively already flew away, you are just being nitpick on the distance out of an argument from incredulity. "The ship just warped" prove this with a scene in the game

That's still not the argument, read the ******* blog

 

[JJSliderman]

Ship warps at 29:04 in the video

Tails saying “at this rate” just kinda pushes it more in favor of the black hole not being strong if it wasn’t even strong enough to suck in the planet when it was right next to the planet, how can it suck in the planet from light years away in the span of five minutes.

The only evidence of BG going to space was a cutscene of it descending after the fight ended, even though we don’t actually see where it was descending from and you’re assuming it was from ly away because we see a galaxy in the background.

I did look at exception and I kinda understand the argument, except for the fact they weren’t fighting anywhere in the universe. They were fighting in a dimensional rift. So the destination is somewhat flawed regardless.

 

[Theuser789]

Ship warps at 29:04 in the video

I predicted you would use this moment since I linked it earlier in the thread, that's not warping... that's just the ship slowing down dude, this is extremely common in fiction that when a ship flies at MFTL speeds to have that effect when slowing down, warping doesn't even make sense, the story is that the Babylonians lost control of the ship and got stranded on Earth, which makes no sense if they teleport like Chaos Control

Tails saying “at this rate” just kinda pushes it more in favor of the black hole being strong if it wasn’t even strong enough to suck in the planet when it was right next to the planet, how can it suck in the planet from light years away in the span of five minutes.

Because it was growing stronger at an exponential rate, using your logic it's not even 5-B because the Earth never got sucked even though many minutes passed, this feels like such a reach

The only evidence of BG going to space was a cutscene of it descending after the fight ended, even though we don’t actually see where it was descending from and you’re assuming it was from ly away because we see a galaxy in the background.

We literally do?????????? Are you even watching the cutscenes? We literally see the ******* Earth, are you trolling? It descended from space to earth, the exact location is literally irrelevant

They were fighting in a dimensional rift.

Prove this with evidence

 

[JJSliderman]

“The exact location is irrelevant”
What? That’s the entire crux of the feat, it being from light years away. If it’s not descending from there and we have the evidence the planet was the main target of the black hole during the fight, it makes more sense to be descending near the planet rather than descending from that extremely far distance.

Black hole would still be somewhere in the planetary range because it would have sucked in the planet in 5 minutes, even if it was exponential the fact is the hole was only strong enough to suck in the planet after a certain amount of time.

The setting of exception displays a tear in space, and on both sides are pieces of space (which have their own celestial bodies to debunk the void destination in the blog), so it makes sense to describe it as a rift in space.

BG’s entrance in the cutscene is signified by a portal effect so it being warping isn’t as far-fetched as you make it seem

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

The setting of exception displays a tear in space, and on both sides are pieces of space (which have their own celestial bodies to debunk the void destination in the blog), so it makes sense to describe it as a rift in space.

Can I see a scan of this?

 

[JJSliderman]

Go to around 5:55, start of the boss fight. You can see throughout the entire thing that on either side of the big pink part in the middle is black space with a few starry dots in it. The pink part is also surrounded by cracks, which could imply it’s not natural and more like a divide in space.

 

[Theuser789]

Oh my God..., going to be extremely clear with my words since you either don't understand them or try to twist them. When I said the exact location is irrelevant I meant that the exact location of where it came down from space is irrelevant, the game does not need to explicitly say "Holy crap we came down from exactly 687896788 lightyears away", it simply needs to show it came down from space, that's it, and since you used a background as evidence in the paragraphs below you obligatory need to accept the background of Babylon Guarden as evidence otherwise you are a hypocrite, therefore you cannot ignore it as you are doing in the posts above, and it clears shows Babylon Guarden is travelling through space, as seen in the blog, so that plus Babylon Guarden descending from space is clear evidence that it flew very far. It does not make more sense, you haven't show evidence it makes more sense, you have a twisted belief that simply because it makes sense in your opinion and interpretation and that by itself is an argument, when it factually means nothing, it is literally countered by me saying that my viewpoint makes sense since both of your words have the exact same weight in this debate

There's nothing in the game indicating the Black Hole was only going to affect the Earth at best, what's in the game is that the Black Hole was growing stronger and it would destroy the earth in due time, that's it, everything else is your conjecture

Let's go over every actual evidence that isn't stuff like "I think.. I feel like... it makes more sense"

In favor:

1. Babylon Guarden is estabilished as a spaceship that brought aliens into earth long ago, meaning it canonically has traveled insterstellar distances
2. The background of the fight clearly shows celestial bodies shifting at high speeds, suggesting flight, it does not look like earth
3. We see Babylon Guarden descend from space to earth, showing that it indeed flew off planet

Now your counter "evidence":

1. The background doesn't count/is weak evidence, because I say so (you haven't provided a reason)
2. The Black Hole threatened Earth, it can't have flow away (A non sequitur, then you invented limitations that don't exist)
3. The spaceship just teleports (Claim with no evidence, pure conjecture/headcanon)

Honestly I am only humoring this because it's my thread and thus I need to provide reasons to for the upgrade, but I do not need to prove to you specific that I am right, you seem to arguing with that intent instead of trying to prove me wrong, you aren't the center of the world. Anyways...

The setting of exception displays a tear in space, and on both sides are pieces of space (which have their own celestial bodies to debunk the void destination in the blog), so it makes sense to describe it as a rift in space.

Feels highly hypocritical for you to be using a background as the main evidence when you said and I quote:

And the only evidence it’s light years away is some background effect that goes against everything the story and even that cutscene shows.

When it's your important is the only thing that matters, but when it's mine it's just "some background effect"? Anyways here's a photo of the background

I do not see any celestial bodies, in fact all I see is the yellow tear, which is not an indication of a rift, unlike with Babylon Guarden there's no other evidence for a rift and the existing evidence is a strech, in fact the video you posted above clearly shows that: The transition is different from other fights, so you are wrong, and that I do not see celestial bodies in the Exception, even if it's a rift, it's still as far away as said in the calc, you need actual evidence

BG’s entrance in the cutscene is signified by a portal effect so it being warping isn’t as far-fetched as you make it seem

Portal effects are used all the time when things come from hyperspeed, it IS far-fetched, prove it's not

 

[JJSliderman]

You’re asking me to prove it’s a warp when they use a portal effect and Babylon Garden is stated to have a warp drive by Wave herself (4:28)-https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eA-pAvuC40g

Unrelated but apparently the Arks can transmute a planet’s mass energy, might be worth looking into.

I used a background for Exception because you used a background to say it has no celestial bodies (it does, if you move around on the screen you can see them at the very edges), and I’m discounting a background for BG because the narrative fits around the planet being sucked in first and foremost, not the solar system or the galaxy or what have you. And the only shot we have after the fight is the ARK descending from space, and reaching Earth in about a second with no notable increase in speed or fade out, showing that the descent we see was happening close to Earth. The fact it can travel interstellar distances doesn’t mean it did.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Go to around 5:55, start of the boss fight. You can see throughout the entire thing that on either side of the big pink part in the middle is black space with a few starry dots in it. The pink part is also surrounded by cracks, which could imply it’s not natural and more like a divide in space.

Alright, going by this interpretation, wouldn’t there be stars between Earth and Exception at the very least?

 

[JJSliderman]

There being stars means it’s just some random region of space since you can’t use the void argument anymore.
And at that point picking a location is just sort of arbitrary.

 

[Theuser789]

You’re asking me to prove it’s a warp when they use a portal effect and Babylon Garden is stated to have a warp drive by Wave herself (4:28)-https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eA-pAvuC40g

Unrelated but apparently the Arks can transmute a planet’s mass energy, might be worth looking into.

I used a background for Exception because you used a background to say it has no celestial bodies (it does, if you move around on the screen you can see them at the very edges), and I’m discounting a background for BG because the narrative fits around the planet being sucked in first and foremost, not the solar system or the galaxy or what have you. And the only shot we have after the fight is the ARK descending from space, and reaching Earth in about a second with no notable increase in speed or fade out, showing that the descent we see was happening close to Earth. The fact it can travel interstellar distances doesn’t mean it did.

Of course I am asking to prove your claims, that's something you literally have to do, portal effect means nothing by itself as I explained in my last post, the warp drive is better proof, but it's probably a reference to this

Warp drive - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Which is not literal teleportation, it simply makes ships go faster, basic sci-fi, in fact that portal effect is commonly used in sci-fi to indicate a ship left hyperspace

Show those celestial bodies, I used a transition, not the background itself and I looked into the Exception, even took a picture and I saw no stars, even then you using a background when it fits your agenda shows a clear hypocrisity and double standards, you can't cherrypick evidence, this is what I was talking about, you care about upholding your twisted view of the "narrative" when I can just say that the narrative is that Sonic and friends were threatened by the Black Hole and had to stop it, which holds as much weight as your words since your entire argument is just "your interpretation+teleportation headcanon"

In fact, I can literally change your words and it will hold the exact same weight: "I’m using a background for BG because the narrative fits around the Sonic and friends being sucked in first and foremost, not only the Eggman's base or the desert or the planet or what have you. The main shot we have after the fight is the ARK descending from space, and reaching Earth in about a second with no notable increase in speed because Sonic and friends had stopped Babylon Guarden from going out of control, being close to Earth in peace and then a fade out, showing that the descent we see was happening after it left hyperspace. The fact it can travel interstellar distances probably means it did."

Holds the exact same weight because you didn't use evidence, only interpretations

 

[JJSliderman]

it’s not an equivalent interpretation though; everything about the endgame of Zero Gravity gives reference to the planet as opposed to anywhere else, so BG being close to the planet is more logical because that’s where the events were centered around.

Honestly the warp thing is just kinda up to interpretation because “warping” means different things to different people.

When I mentioned stars I was referring to elements like this, the dots on the bottom and top of the screen:

2-F16-C817-BF79-48-BB-88-AF-B3-F2-A83-C5881

Image 2-F16-C817-BF79-48-BB-88-AF-B3-F2-A83-C5881 hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

Although you could also interpret it as part of the rift particle effect, space itself is even distorting in the arena.

 

[Theuser789]

it’s an equivalent interpretation though; everything about the endgame of Zero Gravity gives reference to the Sonic and friends as opposed to anywhere else, so everyone being in BG to stop the big bad robot man is more logical because that’s where the events were centered around.

Again, your words by itself mean nothing, my interpretation has factual evidence, yours simple has your opinion that for some reason you think can invalidate actual facts because you don't like them

No, it's not up to interpretation, it's a clear reference to a exteme popular fictional trope from a fictional series, you can't use it as a clear counter evidence

Those aren't stars, like objectively they aren't, they are more like lightning streaks and you yourself gave a better explanation, that is still weak counter evidence

 

[JJSliderman]

If it was only about Sonic and friends why would they make reference to the planet at all, let alone give a timeframe for the planet being destroyed? The focus at least initially is on the planet, and that’s the most frame of reference we have in regards to the destruction.

Warp drive stuff I will give you, that is feasible.

But with Exception…yeah, no, some of those are definitely stars. They’re disparate white spots on a black space background, that’s generally the indicator for stars.

 

[Theuser789]

If it was only about Earth why would they make a reference to Sonic and co at all, let alone give a timeframe for the final level and their destruction? The focus at least initially is on the Sonic and co, and that’s the most frame of reference we have in regards to the destruction.

Again, you think your interpretation triumphs the actual visible facts we have, no matter what you type your interpretation by itself cannot beat mine

No, the picture, ergo the proof you posted, has no black background and no stars, there's no counter evidence to the blog

 

[JJSliderman]

“No black background”
Okay now I have to ask if you looked at the video, because it’s pretty damn blatant.

Being about Sonic doesn’t magically make the black hole about to consume anything other than the planet in the timeframe when the planet is the only celestial body given reference to being destroyed throughout the scenes. You can’t refute that last part because it’s true, there’s no reference to things like stars or galaxies or the universe.

Dude, I said you had a point with the Warp drive thing being a possible explanation. I can’t say what kind of drive it is beyond that, neither can you.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

“No black background”
Okay now I have to ask if you looked at the video, because it’s pretty damn blatant.

I’d recommend sending a screenshot of what you’re referring to, since it apparently isn’t blatant.

 

[JJSliderman]

92655-BF0-BAED-4-CEF-807-D-8-CFBD11-D8-F93

Image 92655-BF0-BAED-4-CEF-807-D-8-CFBD11-D8-F93 hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

Well okay it’s more like a purplish color but.
You get my point, I’m trying to say it’s a space-like background with celestial bodies.

 

[Theuser789]

I looked at your picture, I saw nothing, both of then btw, there's still no celestial bodies there, something you yourself conceded saying it could be a spatial distortion

Being about Earth doesn’t magically make the black hole unable to consume anything other than the planet in the timeframe when the planet is simy the first celestial body given reference to being destroyed throughout the scenes. You can’t refute that last part because it’s true, there’s no reference to it being unable to destroy other things like stars or galaxies or the universe. (Latter part is a exageration lmao, I never said the Black Hole could affect the universe itself)

Still only a interpretation, which still means nothing, Eggman calls it a "giant" Black Hole, irl Black Holes can affect several celestial bodies

Supermassive black hole - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

You keep trying to gaslight my comment as if the Black Hole is physically unable to affect anything other than the Earth, when it's never said and it's simple your headcanon

Lack of direct statments is not the same thing as proof it can't, I am going to consider any further comments that don't debunk the evidence posted in the blog and simply ignore it and continues to use their interpretation as an argument as a concession via burden of rejoinder

I didn't even say anything about the drive, but my interpretation has solid evidence, unlike yours, they are not the same

 

[JJSliderman]

You can interpret the warp drive as a standard hyperdrive as well, like in many other pieces of fiction. So that interpretation is just as valid.

You not seeing celestial bodies doesn’t mean they don’t exist, and my interpretation does not solely exist to boost your viewpoint. Kind of hypocritical that you’re putting your viewpoint on the background as the superior one based on seemingly the same level of information as I have.

I’m pretty sure anyone who looks at a black hole that dwarfs an entire island and causes a massive storm would call it a giant black hole from their perspective, with giant being in reference to the micro black holes from the ARKs.

You are also using headcanon to say that the BG flew into deep space when the main evidence is that it has the potential to and you can see a galaxy in the background; stacked against how every other shot of Babylon Garden is near earth. They are at least comparably valid.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

92655-BF0-BAED-4-CEF-807-D-8-CFBD11-D8-F93

Image 92655-BF0-BAED-4-CEF-807-D-8-CFBD11-D8-F93 hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

Well okay it’s more like a purplish color but.
You get my point, I’m trying to say it’s a space-like background with celestial bodies.

Man I don’t see how this is blatant at all.