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Son Goku (Toei) / GT / Non-Canon Revision

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Dark649 said:
What's to discuss if you will immediatly try to shut down everything that is brought up?.
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It's not "immediately shutting down".

It's called debating.

The majority of the arguments Kep brings forth doesn't convince me and I see a lot of issues and double standards going on with the Toei DBZ profiles. Shit which is genuinely troublesome and wouldn't be allowed on any other verse.

And no, there's plenty of cases where sides with less support won via having the correct arguments. Such as with the High 4-C calc. It doesn't matter how many people approved it cause the very premise of the calc is demonstrably false.
 
It may not convince you, but it has convinced lots of people. I find it funny that the thread can be closed if it suits your argument and everyone else agrees with it but the opposite is not the case when 99% of the bystanders are in agreement with the opposite argument. Make a thread on the standards if you disagree, but they have always been clear.

And this thread is about 3-C Goku. If you're willing to debate other feats's validity, make a general thread for them. This thread is operating under the assumption that the profiles are legit, as all non downgrade threads are.
 
I literally never wanted to close this thread, but you are basically asking to do it by basically acting like my side of the argument doesn't matter anymore.

And 3-C Goku is still being debated. I don't find the notion that he shook all of the Afterlife valid as I explained many times over.
 
When have I talked about closing the thread? Can you stop strawmaning me?

Also Kep, I know you received my message on your message wall.
 
I never asked for this thread to be closed though, I asked for the vote count so we could start setting the thread's final route.

I have also explained many times over why that notion doesn't result in any downgrade to the feat even you pick the low end.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
When have I talked about closing the thread? Can you stop strawmaning me?
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I literally never wanted to close this thread, but you are basically asking to do it.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
When have I talked about closing the thread? Can you stop strawmaning me?
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In that comment he quoted you said you felt like the other side was asking you to close the thread...
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Also...

What is the evidence Goku shook all of the Afterlife?

He powers up and we see Grand Kai fall from his chair. That's all there is to it. It doesn't mean Goku shook the entire universe. Could have been just a part of it.

Also I've been talking with Cal recently and the Broly feat is an outlier. He did it in Suppressed Super Saiyan and as Super Perfect Cell could only destroy a solar system with his strongest attack.
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Matthew Schroeder said:
Goku literally falls into Hell after dropping from Snake Way. That indicates a number of things:
  • Hell has a gravitational pull over King Yemma's palace
  • Hell and King Yemma's palace share an atmosphere or else Goku would jusr float in the vacuum
  • Hell and King Yemma's palace are not that far away for each other, as Goku didn't fall for lightyears to crash into it.
It's very likely that King Yemma's palace is akin to the upper atmosphere while Hell is the ground.
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Something two things which haven't really been addressed properly.
 
Dark649 said:
I literally never wanted to close this thread, but you are basically asking to do it.
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What? I'm talking about not closing the thread and now you randomly want to do it? Why? All I did was ask you to treat me fairly and not say I wanted to do something I don't want to.

Kepekley23 said:
I have also explained many times over why that notion doesn't result in any downgrade to the feat even you pick the low end.
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You really didn't? 3-C GT Goku based on the Hell shaking feat is completely wrong. And the distance between Hell and the Grand Kai's planet isn't quantifiable, nor is it demonstrably proven that Goku shook all of the Afterlife, which is what the calc is based on. If the calc's basic premises can't be proven than it isn't usable.

Also you ignored the second part of my post...
 
Both were addressed. Hell is right below the Snake Way; yes. Hell is also the polar opposite boundary to the Grand Kai's planet, which is right next to one of the Afterlife's boundaries; yes.

Which means the absolute low end for the feat is that Goku shook the center to the radius distance; aka 46.5 billion light years of space; lowering the result to 200 ZettaFoe, still well into 3-C.
 
Collectively chill. Let's tackle the questions and issues here one at a time.

3-C Goku is fine, but the result being so high leaves me a bit uncertain, as it could put GT characters into 3-B, which seems outlier-y when Omega Shenron has the only concrete 3-B feat. But I dunno.

Buuhan's feat is definitely an outlier.
 
Alright so the only problem is 3B right? then lets just tackle that then

Would we be able to give Omega a At Least with his 3B then?
 
Promestein said:
Collectively chill. Let's tackle the questions and issues here one at a time.

3-C Goku is fine, but the result being so high leaves me a bit uncertain, as it could put GT characters into 3-B, which seems outlier-y when Omega Shenron has the only concrete 3-B feat. But I dunno.

Buuhan's feat is definitely an outlier.
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Yep, Gohan Boo's feat is an outlier.

Black Smoke Shenron's feat is that he immediately destroyed all the galaxies surrounding his home planet, which suggests the destruction of a small cluster of galaxies or several galaxies parallel to his world; this is more than a mere two galaxies, and the gap between destroying two and three galaxies alone is immense due to the sheer space inbetween. So it doesn't really contradict earlier characters on GT having high-end 3-C to lwo 3-B potency. It's a huge gap.
 
Matt, threads don't stop progressing and changes don't just not get applied because of one person debating a point they feel is valid— especially when some of the points you listed aren't even good. I've been in many a thread— some that you were involved in— where I've been the only one fighting back— and the changes still made it through. It's wild how they haven't run you over yet— if you weren't staff, I am sure people would just ignore you. That's kinda what happens here. You have the privilege of having an influence in the community, and you get to have your position heard out by the community as a result of that, but that doesn't make you be able to stop a thread's progression all on your own.

It's rather convenient that you "regret" composite toei now, and that's still irrelevant, as that's what the Profile is. Even still, literally all of the Toeiverse shit has contradictions in it in one way or another. Why is Goku in his Base during the Broly events, when it shouldn't be that way? Why does Krillin not know Gohan in both the Dead Zone and the First Arc of Z? In what conceivable point in the "canon" of the Z anime does Fusion Reborn even take place in? The entire arc has Majin Buu destroying everything— with the kids training to defeat Buu, right? So how is that "non-contradictory"? Gohan even looks like he has his ultimate form.... Shouldn't Gohan be in the Otherworld? With his dad? And The Kais...?

Look. The toei Goku page is composite for a reason— and your dislike of the way it is handled is completely ridiculous, because instead of compromising on just having it be composite, you try to find what could be "canon" when nothing can be by your own logic. There's too many contradictions.

Come on, Chief. I don't think this makes sense.
 
Well, Kid Buu has a outright 3-B power for being able to destroy GK planet, and this is DBZ anime.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:SSJRyu1/Kid_Buu_the_galaxy_buster

Goku's feat for shaking other world is calced at near 3-B, and Kep himself says it is a super low ball due to the nature of the calc, not to mention the fact Goku was just powering up. So strogner characters or even FP SSJ3 Goku being 3-B is likely.

Base GT Goku performs a similar feat shaking all Hell and even up to Yenmas place solidifying its consistency even more.

And we have many statements for galaxy busting and universal threats to.

I think 3-B is perfectly reasonable, especially in GT and stronger movie characters given they have both the feats and statemetns to back them up. You have to remember 3-B is a huge tier so even if alot of them are 3-B their power can still be vastly diffrent so it is not inconsistent.
 
3-B is debatable, but 3-C is definitely solid in my view. People should approach any upgrades with an open mind. You are entitled to the opinion that 4-A DBZ is the highest they go, but that doesn't mean people can't disagree and demonstrate that there are higher feats on that level in the series. And so far the majority seems to agree with it.

I completely went against tier 3 last time this was brought up and was fully in favor of 4-A being the cap, but now I disagree.
 
Also Amexim you just supported my point exactly. I don't think the movies should apply to the anime with rare exceptions because they quite obviously don't match the continuity of the anime.
 
Gohan-Boo's feat is wholly irrelevant to this debate; we have already discarded it because it requires space time distortion shenanigans. Auto outlier.
 
The real cal howard said:
I don't just think 3-B Buuhan is an outlier, I think it's straight up bs.
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This. It's not a legitimate feat. Neither destroying Heaven nor the Vice Shout. Buu is either 4-A or 3-C via legitimate, quantifiable feats which actually happened.
 
3-B is quite outliery.

I'm fine with Kep's suggestions for the tiers. Maybe At least 3-C for the earlier GT characters is best, and then 3-B for the relevant Shenrons, SSJ4 Goku at his peak, Omega Shenron, and Gogeta.
 
It is 3-C, but very high end 3-C and a low ball, and just done by powering up.

GT one is similar as he shakes both Hell and yanmas, but in the end it's jsut a replica of the feat so not as important since FR is accepted.

How is 3-B Buu an outlier if we have solid high end 3-C feats, and multiple statements of them being universal threats, and outright galaxy busters in GT? It is consistent. You throw around inconsistent way to much. If it was just one 3-B feat and nothing else OK, but there are multiple tier 3 feats and statements. 3-B is consistent.

As for canon we currently use composite TOIE so should be a non issue here, but even without it you even admited FR can be applied due to Vegeta referencing teh fusion dance already being learned from FR.
 
So 3-C for DBZ and GT (they would have an At Least) and 3-B for the Shenrons or just Omega Shenron and up

This sounds good
 
We have one 3-C feat via Super Saiyan 3 Goku, who is stronger than Kid Buu, powering up to full power.

This feat is also possibly questionable and really high-end in of itself.

Then we have no 3-C feat until the Shadow Dragons arc.

It's really, really not consistent in any shape of the word.
 
Promestein said:
3-B is quite outliery.
I'm fine with Kep's suggestions for the tiers. Maybe At least 3-C for the earlier GT characters is best, and then 3-B for the relevant Shenrons, SSJ4 Goku at his peak, Omega Shenron, and Gogeta.
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This is the most I can concede to.
 
The real cal howard said:
At the absolute best, there's one tier 3 feat
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Janemba warping the Afterlife in the same movie is a tier 3 feat that is even stated in the Daizenshuu to be the case, so you're kinda very wrong. Even if we discard it as an outlier.
 
No. No there is not. Even if we fully composite all of Toei DB, at best, there's only one or two tier 3 instances in the entire series. Buu is nothing but a bunch of hype unbacked statements that it's a shame we're putting this much time into. Stuff that was dropped back in the early OBD days, let alone currently.
 
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