Son Goku (Toei) / GT / Non-Canon Revision

[Kepekley23]

Considering every single Japanese translator imaginable we have asked said so, yes, we are sure. Like, we had 5 translators say "all the galaxies"

 

[Kepekley23]

Also, Gogeta being able to instantly purify the Negative Karma Ball is an excellent feat considering its condensed energy should be equal to its entire energy output spread out over its lifetime.

 

[Peter1129]

So what's the new value for the universe shaking? Dark said something about the final value being lowered due to some disagreement.

 

[Kepekley23]

191 ZettaFoe is the low end. Still well into 3-C.

 

[Peter1129]

So roughly 45x away from baseline 3-B. Pretty sure SS1 GT Goku Lvl characters would still be 3-B either way. I think somebody mentioned something about Toeiverse SS1 being an over 100x multiplier. And even if it isn't than it would still be either 40x or 50x in canon.

 

[LightinAnt]

Does the Toei over 100x SS multiplier come from the fact that Goku used KKx100 in the slug movie?

 

[Kepekley23]

We don't go by multipliers.

Anyway, why is Janemba's range galactic by the way? It's clearly universal.

 

[Dark649]

It was due to a very old thread. The discussed range is for reality warping since Janemba even affected the Other World Tournament with it and was freezing stuff, erecting a barrier on Yemma palace.

 

[Chartate101]

We don't go by multipliers.

Anyway, why is Janemba's range galactic by the way? It's clearly universal.

In this case we do. We always have said SSJ1's multiplier has to be above 20x as if not it wouldn't be stronger than Kaio-Ken x20. Given that there is a Kaio-Ken x100, that would mean SSJ1 in Toeiverse has to be at least 100x

 

[BlackeJan]

I though we don't do multipliers unless it's consistent

 

[LightinAnt]

I though we don't do multipliers unless it's consistent

We do use multipliers that being Kaioken and we can gauge the Super Saiyan multiplier being superior than it through simple scaling and inuniverse logic

 

[Kepekley23]

100x sounds like wank. Goku could only use KKx100 in a short burst. That doesn't prove anything in regards to Super Saiyan.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Didn't Rildo in GT say that Goku's power increased "a hundred-fold" when he transformed into a Super Saiyan, or was that just the English Dub?

 

[Kepekley23]

English dub. In the original japanese Rildo actually states that Goku was using a little below half of his power before transforming, suggesting the SSJ boost is actually only a little bit above 2x lol

 

[Peter1129]

We really need to figure out what the SS1 multiplier is. I have seen 3 different multipliers regarding it.

1. SS1 is an at least 40x multiplier scaling from 100% Frieza being twice as strong as 50% Frieza who was comparable to KKx20.

2. SS1's multiplier of 50x can be used because it's consistent with SS1 Goku being stronger than 100% Frieza.

3. SS1 is supposedly over 100x in the Toeiverse because it's better than KKx100

 

[Kepekley23]

I still stand by the fact that GT SSJ was nerfed to a mere 2.5x multiplier like I said in my old thread. Rildo stated that Base Goku was a little less than half of SSJ Goku.

 

[LightinAnt]

@Kepekley23

That is an outlier or PIS, SS1 was always superior to Kaioken, this would imply that a Kaioken x3 is better than Super Saiyan in GT

 

[Kepekley23]

What do outliers or PIses have to do with anything...? If it's stated it's stated. No bother trying to come up with baseless multipliers either way if you're going to ignore a statement that so clearly details the increase is small.

But, as a matter of fact, the Super Saiyan increase is small ever since the Z anime going by feats. Base Goku was able to fight toe to toe with the fake Gohan inside Super Boo, and then he turned Super Saiyan and was still having trouble beating him. Which already suggests it isn't a 50 or 100-fold boost.

Anyway, this is what the GT Perfect Files say about the boost:

'Super Saiyan 1

• The transformation which Son Goku displayed in his battle with Freeza on Planet Namek was "Super Saiyan 1"!! Proposed conditions for the transformation include such points as "intense anger or sorrow", "high battle power", "a gentle heart", and "a dangerous situation". The main external features are an aura and golden hair on one's head which stands straight up, and after the transformation one's battle power increases remarkably!! One theory is that it becomes as much as 50 times what it is normally!!

50x is also stated to be a theory, however.

 

[LightinAnt]

Again this would imply that Kaioken is just superior to basically all Super Saiyan forms except 4 because if we imply SS1 is just 2x, then SS2 and SS3 would be way weaker too meaning GT Kaioken 20x is Superior to all super saiyan forms in theory which is just ridiculous.

 

[BlackeJan]

Um since when was 50x a theory? If u were to look at the actual/official power lvls in the Namek arc, then u would know what it is. The only thing I can say would be hard to tell is the moment when MSSJ was born

 

[Kepekley23]

Well, Base Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku so if we went by multipliers even Z would be 3-B.

Kaioken x20 has zero bearing on later forms of Super Saiyan. Be conservative.

 

[Chartate101]

I mean SSJ1>KKx20, which means SSJ1 has at least a 20x multiplier. Later forms of SSJ are stronger than SSJ1, meaning they have a multiplier higher than 20x. So yes, actually, ut does have bearing on later forms.

 

[BlackeJan]

Again why aren't we using the 50x multiplier when it was official from Akira himself?

The only thing that would change SSJ would be when MSSJ appeared

 

[Chartate101]

Because for some reason VSBW is against using Daizenshuu multipliers even though Toriyama said that the writers of it knew more than he did

 

[Kepekley23]

Daizenshuu never showed multipliers aside from Super Saiyan. You're thinking about the Super Exciting Guide, which was released like...half a decade after the serialization of the manga.

 

[LightinAnt]

Actually SS1's 50x comes from Toriyama himself

 

[BlackeJan]

^^^^

This. Akira did the power lvls himself on the Namek arc. Everything after that is either fanmade or not by Akira himself

 

[Kepekley23]

Wrong. Toriyama himself actually said he felt that 50x was exaggerated for the time.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/seg-story-volume-truth-about-dragon-ball/

> Because when he became a Super Saiyan, we wouldn't have to do the black fill. It also had the effect of making it easy to tell from his appearance that Goku had gotten stronger, so it killed two birds with one stone. Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.

 

[LightinAnt]

@Kepekley23

So SS1 is weaker than Kaioken 11x? Gotcha. That interview just emphazizes that 50x is what Super Saiyan is

 

[BlackeJan]

Then someone explain the power lvls in the arc cause Akira is the one that did them

@Kep

Yeah...he FELT it was exaggerated

 

[Kepekley23]

You were the one who made up stuff about Toriyama being the one to think up 50x as the official multiplier. He obviously did not. He said it himself. You were shown to be wrong.

And the 120/150 million power levels are from the Daizenshuu.

Power levels are not linear

 

[Kepekley23]

And we don't use multipliers to scale DBZ. This has always been the case. We only use conservative estimates.

 

[LightinAnt]

But he certainly accepts it as 50x, it is 50x officialy ignoring the grades and Mastered Super Saiyan. If he said SS1 was just 10x that would make no sense, Super Saiyan has to be superior than Kaioken 20x

 

[Antvasima]

This thread almost has 500 posts, at which point it will automatically be closed.

I strongly recommend immediately starting a continuation and linking to it here.

 

[Chartate101]

If its a 2x multiplier like you say, then explain how SSJ is always used over Kaioken for the rest of the series (pre super).

 

[Amexim]

That 2.5x thing is bull and you know it. It's better than KKx20

 

[Chartate101]

Continued here https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2392876?useskin=oasis

 

[PaChi2]

And we don't use multipliers to scale DBZ. This has always been the case. We only use conservative estimates.

We did accept Super Saiyan being > x20 kaioken.

 

[Theglassman12]

And we don't use multipliers to scale DBZ. This has always been the case. We only use conservative estimates.

We did accept Super Saiyan being > x20 kaioken.

It wouldn't make any sense if we didn't accept this considering that 20X kaioken struggled against final form frieza, but Super Saiyan Goku was able to make Frieza go 100% to actually stand a chance.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The first instance was the only time we sort of accepted the SSJ1 multiplier; but it's more like "at least 40x" rather than 50x. But it's just inconsistent afterwards where the power gap could seem much higher or not that much higher at times while the speed gap isn't noticeable.