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Bruh.
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Some Ups and Downs for Touhou Project
- Thread starter OnsokunoSonic
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It was like in imperishable night like every route has her saying she sealed all of the doors on stage 5. the stage looks the exact same as when miko was taking about the corridor being endless
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Yeah, it's the truth. People would see our site, and then flood it with CRTS and flood their own site with angry rants about the abstract concept of VSBW and everyone there would then treat Touhou as 10-C
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Well, that seems like a pretty clear case of infinite travel speed. No idea how I missed this when IN is my favorite touhou game.
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Well, just saying, while I can see the 2-C working, I disagree with making upscaling from Doremy. Outside of Zun's statement, she still is constantly portrayed as superior to other characters in-verse, and she shows having more control of reality. We have things like Dream World affecting reality, and people not being able of gaining total control of dreams because of Doremy's administration. Even so, she constantly administers dream beings, whose are equal to their "real" counterparts, so making upscaling doesn't makes that much of sense for me.
Zun could say that, but that seems more related on the topic that Doremy's influence is mostly within dreams instead of the physical world, especially because of what he's saying about "a dream is still a dream".
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Can you remind me who scale to Doremy?
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Most of Gensokyo's strongest inhabitants and moon people.
I agree making upscaling of the latter, but for the former I can't see it happening.
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And this... if true would probably just cement most characters not scaling.
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Moon People scales to some Gensucyo inhabitants (Kaguya and Eirin) though.
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- #252
I don't remember that.
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Well, she recreated a reality that connects with several Otherworlds within the dream (Land of Backdoor), so, well
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- #254
Yes.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Having control over every single dream counterpart shouldn't really be used for scaling, since there are dream versions of characters we know for a fact are superior to her (like Sagume and Eirin). After all, anyone who can sleep has a dream counterpart. What you're proposing here would make Doremy superior to the entire verse, which obviously isn't true. To me, it seems like her having control over a character's dream counterpart is just an extension of her control over the dream world, and she doesn't have the same level of control of the real world versions of characters, which is what I'm basing this scaling off of.
Also, the Dream World affecting reality doesn't mean anything in terms of scaling. That can be true and people can still upscale from her.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Also this really seems like its just describing the limitless possibilities inside a dream. The phrase 'She watches over the place to ensure that those who realize this don't disturb the order of things' seems to imply that this wouldn't even be something the applies to Doremy herself, only others who enter the Dream World. Besides, even taken literally, 'can go anywhere' is way too vague to use as evidence for omnipresence.
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We're kinda far from the conclusion right now, so I can't tell what's the conclusion.
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There isn't much of an issue with the infinite speed feat I brought up earlier correct?
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Well, it seems like infinite speed has been accepted. Hecatia disagrees with 2-C scaling through Doremy, and still no conclusion about the Patchouli/Alice downgrade.
This thread is like a hydra, every time we finish one topic another one takes its place.
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Is this some sort of joke?
Where's @Saikou_The_Lewd_King, because I think he needs to see this.
We are not doing infinite/immeasurable speed Touhou. That is complete wank and nonsense, not backed up by literally anything in Touhou other than some extreme extrapolations of some "can act within instants" statement, with "instant" being interpreted as intrinsically and always meaning a literal 1/∞th of a second because of an interpretation of "countless" (in "time is made up of countless instants") that we don't even use for our own tiering system.
Nothing in Touhou makes sense with literally infinite/immeasurable speed characters zippin' and zoppin' through reality, yet still feeling urgencies of time in resolving incidents.
It's bullshit, is what I'm saying. And when you look at the kind of speed downgrades Xeno/Heroes DB characters have had from their previously "immeasurable" speed rankings, it's bullshit that will only look super-embarrassing down the line.
Where's @Saikou_The_Lewd_King, because I think he needs to see this.
We are not doing infinite/immeasurable speed Touhou. That is complete wank and nonsense, not backed up by literally anything in Touhou other than some extreme extrapolations of some "can act within instants" statement, with "instant" being interpreted as intrinsically and always meaning a literal 1/∞th of a second because of an interpretation of "countless" (in "time is made up of countless instants") that we don't even use for our own tiering system.
Nothing in Touhou makes sense with literally infinite/immeasurable speed characters zippin' and zoppin' through reality, yet still feeling urgencies of time in resolving incidents.
It's bullshit, is what I'm saying. And when you look at the kind of speed downgrades Xeno/Heroes DB characters have had from their previously "immeasurable" speed rankings, it's bullshit that will only look super-embarrassing down the line.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Did you even read my post? Instants aren't being interpreted as infinitely small based off of nothing, because there are several statements to show that, yes, a single instant is infinitely small. Please address the actual evidence presented instead of just sitting her going "you're wrong, it's wank". Also, there's still Reisen's infinite speed feat which you need to address.
You do realize this could just as easily be applied to FTL/MFTL characters, right? Not only that, but with multiple characters that can control time, why don't they just always stop time and solve the incident like that? It's PIS, plain and simple. When a series has so many characters with reality breaking hax, PIS is kind of a necessity.
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An infinite number of "instants" could indeed make up a spacetime, without those "instants" literally being 1/∞th of a second. The Touhou universe is supposed to be infinite in spatial and temporal extent, after all.
"So small its imperceptible to most living things" could potentially mean anything. It could mean a nanosecond. It could mean a zeptosecond. It could mean a picosecond. It doesn't necessarily mean 1/∞th of a second.
I see nothing about Reisen sealing up doors that even suggests anything vaguely resembling infinite speed, so there isn't anything to address there.
No, that's bullshit excuse-making. Characters supposedly able to move at infinite/immeasurable speeds yet almost never manifesting that at any time or circumstance such a thing could conceivably be relevant is not mere "PIS", it's practically proof-positive that those characters aren't actually able to move at infinite/immeasurable speeds.
This is literally just the DB Heroes speed nonsense all over again.
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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Except the Touhou universe isn't infinite in a temporal sense. The primordial gods predate reality itself, which would obviously include the concept of time. When reality was created, that would be when time began. So the flow of time in Touhou has a clear start point. While we don't know the exact length of time its been since then, since Touhou takes place in the modern day, it certainly isn't infinite. The length of time from the start of the universe to now is finite, so for the flow of time itself to made up of an infinite number of units, that unit must be infinitely small.
Also, this isn't about instants making up spacetime. Nowhere was that stated. This is about Kaguya being able to move within one. That's it.
Technically true, but this doesn't actually disprove infinite speed. I'm mainly just using it as supporting evidence, not as the whole argument itself. And besides, FTL speeds are extremely easy to achieve in Touhou (even fairies can do it). Incredibly small units of time like the ones you listed should be perceptible even by absolute fodder.
The doors are inside an infinite corridor, so for Reisen to seal all of them, she would have to travel an infinite distance in a finite period of time.
Do you have any idea what PIS even is? You could apply this to literally any verse. A character's peak speed is virtually never shown on a regular basis. This is equivalent to saying "Sonic can't be immeasurable, because if he was all the games would end before they even began", which is something that definitely won't fly on this wiki. The same goes for Touhou. The reason the games can't be beaten instantaneously is because, well, they're games. There'd be no point in playing them if everything was portrayed infinitely fast.
Can you please elaborate on how this is even remotely related rather than just vaguely gesture at a verse I know nothing about? If you're gonna act like this is a rebuttal of some kind at least provide some context.
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Wasn't there also a song title in Dr. Latency's Freak Report that said the the instant is shorter than planck time as well.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Where are you getting that translation from? I thought that song was titled An Instant that Exceeds Planck's Time, which is pretty vague.
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It was from the fandom wiki's translation iirc. Moriya shrine also has a different translation than the en.touhou wiki people use.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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I see. In that case it can probably be used.
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Saikou also used that specific translation on his page as well iirc. Plus lore wise it makes more sense as eternity and instantaneous manipulation are polar opposites.
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Toyohime further supports this by stating that instants are not normally perceptible by living beings, and an infinite number of them makes up time itself, so a single instant would have to be infinitely small.
Imagine contradicting yourself this hard on this many levels. And your image doesn't work for me, so I can't scrutinize it in depth.
Weren't you people just saying how "space = time" in Touhou, so spatial extent = temporal extent? Don't contradict yourselves even more now.
And it's not like time didn't actually exist in the primordial soup the Touhou gods created everything out of, it just didn't exist as a separate, enumerated entity (it's "own thing") from everything else.
Lol of course, but it still wouldn't prove infinite speed either. We can go for arbitrarily (but still finitely) small units of time and still have them be "instants" here.
Or maybe she could have just been using some device or technique to seal them all at once, without having to physically move .
Or, maybe, one of the two people most associated with this kind of thing (Kaguya or Eirin), might have just made the corridors finite for this one instance.
That's just more bullshit excuse-making. And that Sonic example doesn't even work anyway, because not only would that still be a legitimate argument against him being immeasurably fast, no non-amped version of Sonic is considered to have immeasurable speed in this wiki anyway.
As for Touhou, given the amount of times that 2hus are fighting on open fields and yet not zippin' and zoppin' all over Gensokyo as if time had stopped for them, I'm going to go off on a limb here and say they can't move at infinite/immeasurable speeds.
This is literally your argument now:
>2hus can use their "InFiNiTe SpEeD" to slam up doors
>2hus can't use their "InFiNiTe SpEeD" in combat/in gameplay because reasons
I'm sure there's a very good reason we're using the inherent flowery-ness of song titles as evidence. I'm sure.
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Well Saikou did in his blog if you want to take it up with him.
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I already tagged Saikou, so as far as that's concerned, I'm just waiting for him to log back in.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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ZUN's own statement on the matter should clear this up.
So 'single moments of time' (in other words, an instant), can in fact be separated from space.
Again, that statement is being used as supporting evidence. It is not the crux of my argument. You could get rid of it entirely and infinite speed would still be viable based on what we know.
Those are some incredible specific circumstances that you have absolutely 0 evidence for. Burden of proof is on you here.
That's a single example. Any character with infinite/immeasurable speed can be 'debunked' according to your logic, because these characters aren't always moving at top speed. That's the point I'm trying to make here. Nobody needs to be moving at their peak 100% of the time to 'prove' infinite or immeasurable speed.
I would also appreciate it if you elaborated on how it's bullshit rather than just insist it is with nothing to back it up.
Yes, because this is clearly an anti-feat rather than a case of game mechanics. Guilty Gear has immeasurable speed, but that speed isn't reflected in gameplay because if it was, the game would be literally unplayable and nobody would enjoy it. No character in any game you play will actually be moving at the speeds they should be moving at based on feats and lore, because if they were, nobody would ever play a single video game ever again. Please refrain from bringing up game mechanics/PIS in your arguments again, I'm getting tired of arguing against it.
In that case, guess we better throw every single universal feat, FTL feat, all the notable hax, and minor characters out the window because they aren't represented in gameplay!
But seriously, characters are regularly depicted as faster or stronger in lore or statements in most verses, not just Touhou. This is basically standard practice for the wiki. 90% of what is present on the Touhou pages right now is reliant on lore statements such as Reisen's door feat or Kaguya's instant movement. To throw these out on the basis of "they're not reflected in gameplay" is, pardon my french, ******* idiotic.
It just further confirms what was already being discussed here. Nothing about it being a song title would make it wrong to use, unless it is somehow contradictory to something we already know for a fact, which it isn't.
ShinyMagicalGirl
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I just realized an error: she says Femto is a period of time so short that normal people cannot perceive it.
So we can conclude that instants are so small that an individual one cannot normally be perceived by living beings, and that Kaguya's ability to move and act within these instants is accomplished via sheer speed and not time manipulation.
Femto as in femtosecond. And this is true; normal people can’t perceive femtoseconds. So this instant doesn’t have to literally be instant, it just has to be femto. So femtoseconds is around MFTL+, but not Infinite speed so this can’t be used.
HOWEVER! There is still another Infinite speed feat we can use. Suika destroyed the infinite sized Heaven right? Her attack must have reached all corners of the that infinite distance, and thus her attacks are infinite in speed. So whoever fights Suika and then dodges her attacks, can be considered Infinite speed. I believe this to be a better usage of Infinite speed for Touhou. Because after all, if everyone scaled to Kaguya’s Infinite speed ability, then why bother using the technique to make her super fast if everyone scales to it anyways? Besides, its not even infinite speed and its only femtoseconds.
So yeah. Suika’s attacks should be infinite in speed right? Thus, whoever reacts to her attacks have infinite speed, since she destroyed an infinite sized realm.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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This statement is kinda contradictory with Dr. Latency's Freak report and Toyohime's own statement about time being made up of an infinite number of instants, but I'll wait and see what other people have to say. I don't personally think this is enough to debunk infinite speed, since a lot of scientific concepts aren't commonly understood in Touhou (which is kinda what allows everything to exist anyways), so I doubt Toyohime genuinely knows how long a femtosecond is.
Regarding Suika, that feat is probably more consistent for scaling. And, well, there's still Reisen's feat. So we have 2 infinite speed feats at bare minimum (I still think Kaguya's feat is valid though).
Regarding Suika, that feat is probably more consistent for scaling. And, well, there's still Reisen's feat. So we have 2 infinite speed feats at bare minimum (I still think Kaguya's feat is valid though).
ShinyMagicalGirl
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Touhou has scientific stuff (they have string theory mentioned) so I think they know what femtosecond means.
Kaguya’s feat I just think is weird and even if it is Infinite speed, itd be kinda weird for it to be a speed amp and then only for everyone else to scale anyways, making it useless. But yeah, its a femtosecond not infinite speed.
Also what’s Reisen’s feat? If there’s Suika’s and Reisen’s, then having two Infinite speed feats makes it not an outlier, compared to if it was only one infinite speed feat.
Kaguya’s feat I just think is weird and even if it is Infinite speed, itd be kinda weird for it to be a speed amp and then only for everyone else to scale anyways, making it useless. But yeah, its a femtosecond not infinite speed.
Also what’s Reisen’s feat? If there’s Suika’s and Reisen’s, then having two Infinite speed feats makes it not an outlier, compared to if it was only one infinite speed feat.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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For Reisen, she sealed up every door inside Kaguya's infinite corridor.
And while I'm aware Touhou has a lot of scientific stuff, that doesn't always mean the characters will fully understand it. For example, Aya not knowing what DNA is. She's heard of it, she just doesn't understand anything about it. Toyohime likely knows a femtosecond is a very short period of time, but doesn't fully comprehend it, similar to how most Touhou characters treat scientific concepts.
And while I'm aware Touhou has a lot of scientific stuff, that doesn't always mean the characters will fully understand it. For example, Aya not knowing what DNA is. She's heard of it, she just doesn't understand anything about it. Toyohime likely knows a femtosecond is a very short period of time, but doesn't fully comprehend it, similar to how most Touhou characters treat scientific concepts.
ShinyMagicalGirl
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So if they always know what they are talking about, what makes some of these feats real then, if the people saying it aren’t actually experts or legit on it? We need to pick a side here.
Anyways, Reisen’s door thing might just be a “wave my hand all doors are closed” thing. We don’t know how she did it, she could have magiced all of them close, we don’t know if she individually went to each door and shut them close. Unless there’s more explanations and context for this feat? If there is, please show me,
Anyways, Reisen’s door thing might just be a “wave my hand all doors are closed” thing. We don’t know how she did it, she could have magiced all of them close, we don’t know if she individually went to each door and shut them close. Unless there’s more explanations and context for this feat? If there is, please show me,
Guardian_Doge
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I still agree with Fujiwara's points but there's a little something I'd like to point out for you malomtek.
A similar example was given in your downgrade CRT for touhou about their ap by GilverTheProtoAngelo, they said:
Oh and.
Yes, this is exactly true, why exactly do they require to do so? You're saying is practically indicating that someone who has immeasurable speed must always use immeasurable speed regardless of the circumstances, when that's just wrong.
A similar example was given in your downgrade CRT for touhou about their ap by GilverTheProtoAngelo, they said:
The same point here applies to speed, in incidents for touhou, the setting and overall plot is to go through multiple enemies who can be the culprit, not to go around flying at speeds that break or are nearly unmeasurable with S=D/T.AoE and power control is quite a common in fiction, because no author wants universal or higher characters to go around destroying fabric of reality around themselves, cuz obviously its gonna break the story/setting etc.
Just because DB explained it in-verse doesn't mean every verse has to go around doing that...perception and analysis of on-screen feats should be enough to discern such conclusions. Ya know common sense.
But the thing about common sense is, its no longer objective....its subjective and thus uncommon. :vHarsh reality of life.
Oh and.
You need to cut the attitude, we never once attacked you nor have we done something that should affect your mental/emotional health. We're revising an outdated verse, with open minded interpretations, in which we still discuss our opinions thoroughly both here and the private discord to make sure we come to a viable consensus, this should not hurt you enough to where you have to spew words like "bullshit". (fujiwara you should also avoid things like "*******".)
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