Some Ups and Downs for Touhou Project

[RethPo]

Mostly because low 2-C is more consistent and its debateable whether those infinite realities are actually the full space times being replecated in doremys realm and not just its contents.

Also i was gonna do a quick revision for this but i think it can be done here. Alice and Patchouli should only be 2-C with magic and 9-B physically. Alice only harms mokou in imperisable night with doll magic and doesnt really attack her through any physical means so only doll magic should scale, and both of them are only rivals to marisa in terms of magic. The main reason they should be downgraded though is that its stated that most magicians have physically weak bodies (at least ones that have been doing it and using mercury for a long time). And alice and patchouli are the main examples given for it.

Yet theyre being listed as infinitely more durable than almost everyone in gensokyo and physically scaling to some of the most powerful youkai in the series. That should be changed.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah, I agree with the Alice and Patchouli downgrade.

 

[Antvasima]

Please explain the reasons for the new "At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C" statistics in an easy to understand manner.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I apparently missed this thread existing.

And I will say no. Absolutely and utterly no.


Kaguya's ability being 2-C is a ******* joke. She's using her power of manipulate the Instantaneous to act really fast and thus have "parallel histories". But this absolutely does not create many timelines. I have no idea how this was even remotely accepted.

People scaling to Doremy also doesn't work. There is absolutely no solid scaling placing any of the Gensokyo people above her. Vague statements of Doremy being not that dangerous of a Youkai (which only really refers to her influence being limited to the dream) aren't enough to scale all of the top tiers to her. At best this would only apply to the Lunar people and shit.

Even then, Doremy being 2-C doesn't really make sense. Dreams are just subsections of the Dream World. They're not separate space-time continuums. They're all contained within the Otherworld of the Dream World. You can't have multiple space-time continuums inside a single space-time continuum I'm afraid.

The primordial form of the gods being 2-C is also probably a no go. There are an ungodly amount of them. There is no way any individual one is gonna be 2-C for creating the amount of Otherworlds we know exist.


Also you guys are unbearable. Why are you not changing the ******* reasoning? I come back to see people being 2-C for scaling to a Low 2-C feat. Is it that hard to modify profiles beyond changing the big funny number?

 

[RethPo]

Im not gonna agree or disagree yet (besides kaguya i completely agree with) but dont we let dragon ball have multiple space time continuums inside of a space time continuum 0_0
Even if they totally shouldnt

 

[Antvasima]

Saikou makes sense to me.

What do you think that we should do here then?

 

[Mobi2]

Instantaneous manipulation appears to be based on her perception of time being higher than a human's. It's more of a speed orientated time ability.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Kaguya's ability being 2-C is a ******* joke. She's using her power of manipulate the Instantaneous to act really fast and thus have "parallel histories". But this absolutely does not create many timelines. I have no idea how this was even remotely accepted.

Having multiple parallel histories via movement speed alone doesn't make any sense either, so depending on your interpretation this is either a 2-C feat or immeasurable speed. Take your pick.

People scaling to Doremy also doesn't work. There is absolutely no solid scaling placing any of the Gensokyo people above her. Vague statements of Doremy being not that dangerous of a Youkai (which only really refers to her influence being limited to the dream) aren't enough to scale all of the top tiers to her. At best this would only apply to the Lunar people and shit.

"Vague statements" You mean word of god? This isn't a shoddy or unreliable in-universe source, this is right from ZUN himself. He didn't even mention how 'dangerous' she is, he is explicitly talking about how much power she has, nor does he say that this is limited to her influence in the dream world. "Doremy is not a particularly strong youkai" is a fine statement to use for scaling.

Even then, Doremy being 2-C doesn't really make sense. Dreams are just subsections of the Dream World. They're not separate space-time continuums. They're all contained within the Otherworld of the Dream World. You can't have multiple space-time continuums inside a single space-time continuum I'm afraid.

Im not gonna agree or disagree yet (besides kaguya i completely agree with) but dont we let dragon ball have multiple space time continuums inside of a space time continuum 0_0

I'm not gonna talk about verses I personally know nothing about but from what I can tell, having multiple space-time continuums inside a single space-time continuum is fine by this wiki's standards. You need to prove that having multiple space-time continuums inside a single one is something that is impossible within the context of Touhou itself.

The primordial form of the gods being 2-C is also probably a no go. There are an ungodly amount of them. There is no way any individual one is gonna be 2-C for creating the amount of Otherworlds we know exist.

This is probably fine, I was neutral on 2-C primordials from the start. I'm sure other people here might disagree though.

Also you guys are unbearable. Why are you not changing the ******* reasoning? I come back to see people being 2-C for scaling to a Low 2-C feat. Is it that hard to modify profiles beyond changing the big funny number?

I'm one person doing all these edits for a CRT that covers 99% of the god damn verse with almost no editing experience while I'm also trying to balance IRL shit such as getting flash flood warnings on my phone the entire morning. Please just have some ******* patience. I'm also probably gonna stop doing edits for the time being while I wait to see if the 2-C upgrade gets rejected so hopefully that's fine.

 

[Alice_the_Eternal_Sleep]

''Why are you not changing the ******* reasoning?''

I think it would be good to leave over-toned words out of the thread, so as not to generate conflict. It is to remember that it is also important to be patient.

 

[Antvasima]

Fujiwara also makes sense above. Thank you for helping out with this.

Also, Shots is correct, you need to try to be polite Saikou.

 

[RethPo]

Also i was gonna do a quick revision for this but i think it can be done here. Alice and Patchouli should only be 2-C with magic and 9-B physically. Alice only harms mokou in imperisable night with doll magic and doesnt really attack her through any physical means so only doll magic should scale, and both of them are only rivals to marisa in terms of magic. The main reason they should be downgraded though is that its stated that most magicians have physically weak bodies (at least ones that have been doing it and using mercury for a long time). And alice and patchouli are the main examples given for it.

Yet theyre being listed as infinitely more durable than almost everyone in gensokyo and physically scaling to some of the most powerful youkai in the series. That should be changed.

I should bump this since this can be handled pretty quickly. So far mokou agrees, anyone else? Saikou maybe?

 

[Antvasima]

I am uncertain.

@Saikou_The_Lewd_King

Are you willing to continue to help out here please?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

For the time being, while 2-C is still being debated, what should I do in regards to the other profiles? I can still do the pages without L2-C keys, but for everyone else should I keep applying 2-C, go back and change all 2-C ratings to H3-A/L2-C, or just leave everything as is and come back to them once we've reached a verdict?

 

[Guardian_Doge]

In my opinion:

just leave everything as is and come back to them once we've reached a verdict?

Yes, definitely go back to them when a verdict is reached.

I think Rethpo makes sense regarding the kaguya stuff, her ability is vague, but its speed should be given an "infinite with X ability" considering what was said by Fujiwara.

For the Doremy stuff let me separate it into two:

Dreams and their respectable nature​

I inherently disagree with them being treated as merely "subsections" when they have directly said to be "another reality" according to reimu, I posted it above but I'll do it again. Here. Not only that but dreams have shown to affect objects from reality or the physical world, like this, this , this (locking her inside a dream and destroying it hurts her) and in LoLK's Story. So fundamentally they still carry the same exact properties from reality, and considering doremy making dreams is already apart of her justification, I see no reason to neglect this.

Scaling chain using Doremy's WoG statement​

I kind of disagree with her being lower than people like Mokou and Kaguya, people like Suika, Kasen, etc all have dream world version that are controlled by Doremy, and iirc the only way to really break out of it was having an extremely strong willpower that overpowers the Dream World's effects, which really have only been done by the cast of LoLK (Reisen, Marisa, Reimu, Sanae) and the lunarians. So, I'd still keep her above tengu and oni. However I'm horrible at scaling chains, I'll leave it to you guys.

Next is the "you can't have multiple space-time continuums in one", which well doesn't really matter here, if that's the case, then clearly the dream world is bigger then just a singular 4-D construct, a world like Hell, has multiple hells in it (i.e the Animal realm and avici), which is a similar conception to what I'm trying to grasp at.

Let's move on with these arguments so we don't get this thread stuck.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Scaling chain using Doremy's WoG statement​

I kind of disagree with her being lower than people like Mokou and Kaguya, people like Suika, Kasen, etc all have dream world version that are controlled by Doremy, and iirc the only way to really break out of it was having an extremely strong willpower that overpowers the Dream World's effects, which really have only been done by the cast of LoLK (Reisen, Marisa, Reimu, Sanae) and the lunarians. So, I'd still keep her above tengu and oni. However I'm horrible at scaling chains, I'll leave it to you guys.

I have a few issues here. If lunarians are stronger than Doremy, then Kaguya, and by extension Mokou, should be stronger than her. And if having enough willpower to overpower the dream world is what we're using to gauge who scales to Doremy, that wouldn't make much sense since Reisen is among those characters and she's much weaker than oni or tengu, unless you're also proposing a massive Reisen upgrade here. Overall it seems like the statements you've given are based on hax, not AP, so my point about characters scaling above Doremy's AP still stands.

Agree with everything else in your post, though.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Reisen is among those characters

Funnily enough I should remove her, her scenario in LolK was different, she used the Kaian passageway #4 an exclusive thing to moon rabbits to travel to earth and the lunar capital.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

In that case you can consider half of my argument invalid. Guess this is what I get for not playing the games.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

It needs to be revised to be written as a professional matter of fact official information article, without any personal subjective point of view statements. See below for example:

Touhou Powers and Abilities Explanation

Touhou Project is a very wide verse. This may cause newcomers to not understand the reasoning for our ratings. This page is created to explain feats that need more context to properly understand. This section will explain characters physiology, thus anyone that fall under these races will have...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Sorry for my unprofessional edits, I'll fix it when I have the time.

Kaguya's ability being 2-C is a ******* joke. She's using her power of manipulate the Instantaneous to act really fast and thus have "parallel histories". But this absolutely does not create many timelines. I have no idea how this was even remotely accepted.

This feat is either infinite/immeasurable speed or 2-C which scales to Mokou, and assuming she never used this against Mokou is silly since they've been fighting for YEARS. Both works fine since the point of this thread is to add a new page.

For the time being, while 2-C is still being debated, what should I do in regards to the other profiles? I can still do the pages without L2-C keys, but for everyone else should I keep applying 2-C, go back and change all 2-C ratings to H3-A/L2-C, or just leave everything as is and come back to them once we've reached a verdict?

Yeah, reverting the AP section should work.

 

[BlastX]

I have a few issues here. If lunarians are stronger than Doremy, then Kaguya, and by extension Mokou, should be stronger than her. And if having enough willpower to overpower the dream world is what we're using to gauge who scales to Doremy, that wouldn't make much sense since Reisen is among those characters and she's much weaker than oni or tengu, unless you're also proposing a massive Reisen upgrade here. Overall it seems like the statements you've given are based on hax, not AP, so my point about characters scaling above Doremy's AP still stands.

Agree with everything else in your post, though.

Doesn't Reisen have a possible much higher rating for being an incident resolver in her profile?

 

[Antvasima]

For the time being, while 2-C is still being debated, what should I do in regards to the other profiles? I can still do the pages without L2-C keys, but for everyone else should I keep applying 2-C, go back and change all 2-C ratings to H3-A/L2-C, or just leave everything as is and come back to them once we've reached a verdict?

Well, in my view, Saikou has had many chances to participate here. If he does not respond soon, you can probably continue with the revision.

 

[Antvasima]

Sorry for my unprofessional edits, I'll fix it when I have the time.

No problem. I would appreciate if you or others do so as soon as possible though.

This feat is either infinite/immeasurable speed or 2-C which scales to Mokou, and assuming she never used this against Mokou is silly since they've been fighting for YEARS. Both works fine since the point of this thread is to add a new page.

We tend to be very careful before applying immeasurable speed.

Yeah, reverting the AP section should work.

That seems like a lot of likely unnecessary work.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Alright, as far as I can tell, all of the main necessary edits have been made. I still need to work on a new scaling chain, but for the time being I hope this is okay.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Alright, as far as I can tell, all of the main necessary edits have been made. I still need to work on a new scaling chain, but for the time being I hope this is okay.

Nice, thanks.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, thank you very much for helping out.

I hope that you corrected the issues that I mentioned earlier.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So, is there anything left to do here other than the potential Alice/Patchouli downgrade? Assuming Saikou doesn't come back and continue to argue against 2-C, that is.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know. Sorry.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

That's perfectly fine, I'll wait and see if anyone else here thinks there's anything left that needs to be discussed.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[RethPo]

Sooo i take it were rejecting kaguyas feat then due to vagueness, if so ill prolly have to remove that from the profile.
Also kaguyas ability isnt even infinite or 2-C. Shes just acting in short periods of time and hax at best. Her having "multiple histories" has literally nothing to do with speed nor creating universes. The closest thing she does is applying eternity to things which makes them eternally frozen.

And im guessing were scaling to doremys feat now? If theres enough reaason to assume the hell and land of backdoor she creates are done as seperate space times and not just its contents being replecated then im not gonna debate against it (even though it seems more like a possibly 2-C more than anything) but there does need to be mentioning of how characters scale to doremy on their profiles.

 

[Jasonsith]

Why Patchouli and Alice will be downgraded? Like make them Cirno tier? Is Udonge Cirno tier too? What about Aya-ya? Suika still remains Mokou/Keine/Eirin tier right?

 

[RethPo]

Also i was gonna do a quick revision for this but i think it can be done here. Alice and Patchouli should only be 2-C with magic and 9-B physically. Alice only harms mokou in imperisable night with doll magic and doesnt really attack her through any physical means so only doll magic should scale, and both of them are only rivals to marisa in terms of magic. The main reason they should be downgraded though is that its stated that most magicians have physically weak bodies (at least ones that have been doing it and using mercury for a long time). And alice and patchouli are the main examples given for it.

Yet theyre being listed as infinitely more durable than almost everyone in gensokyo and physically scaling to some of the most powerful youkai in the series. That should be changed.

This is why

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Why Patchouli and Alice will be downgraded? Like make them Cirno tier? Is Udonge Cirno tier too? What about Aya-ya? Suika still remains Mokou/Keine/Eirin tier right?

They'll be Cirno tier physically, everything else remains the same with their magic. Nobody else is being downgraded.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Also kaguyas ability isnt even infinite or 2-C. Shes just acting in short periods of time and hax at best. Her having "multiple histories" has literally nothing to do with speed nor creating universes. The closest thing she does is applying eternity to things which makes them eternally frozen.

I don't think it wouldn't be like that, because those fragments of time allows her to perceive/interact with many several histories, aka periods of time of the main timeline (which is a characteristic of characters with immeasurable speed), if we assume they aren't really parallel timelines (though I think that could be the case). Even in SSiB it's explained that the instants are like infinitesimal periods of time that cannot be imagined nor perceived. Obviously, Kaguya being capable to perceiving and understanding these periods means she has at least the enough speed of reaction to being capable of manipulating them, which gives us to she having immeasurable speed.
Also now that we touched that topic of speed, there are more things to support that, for example, Eientei being in a state without time or history at the moment of the IN incident, characters travelling throughout the Dream World to other worlds such as the Lunar Capital and Gensokyo, which is basically travelling from different temporal axis in order to transverse the boundaries between worlds, Reimu being in Avicii, an eternal Hell where time doesn't flow, Reimu crossing the boundaries between worlds, etc etc.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I don't think it wouldn't be like that, because those fragments of time allows her to perceive/interact with many several histories, aka periods of time of the main timeline (which is a characteristic of characters with immeasurable speed), if we assume they aren't really parallel timelines (though I think that could be the case). Even in SSiB it's explained that the instants are like infinitesimal periods of time that cannot be imagined nor perceived. Obviously, Kaguya being capable to perceiving and understanding these periods means she has at least the enough speed of reaction to being capable of manipulating them, which gives us to she having immeasurable speed.
Also now that we touched that topic of speed, there are more things to support that, for example, Eientei being in a state without time or history at the moment of the IN incident, characters travelling throughout the Dream World to other worlds such as the Lunar Capital and Gensokyo, which is basically travelling from different temporal axis in order to transverse the boundaries between worlds, Reimu being in Avicii, an eternal Hell where time doesn't flow, Reimu crossing the boundaries between worlds, etc etc.

Kaguya being able to perceive and react within instants seems more like infinite speed than immeasurable, though the first point you brought up is definitely immeasurable IMO. The Avici thing shouldn't count since that's just a timeless void, which isn't valid for immeasurable speed (by this site's standards, at least).

Overall I think an 'Infinite, possibly Immeasurable' speed rating for the verse would work best.

 

[RethPo]

Idk if the standards would push that towards infinite. But it would be best to get a staff that knows about those kind of standards and give them the context before making any changes... itd prolly be more inifinite using her ability though wouldnt it?

But still... If the characters are currently 2-C because theyre scaling to doremy that needs to be explained on the profiles of the characters scaling to her.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Suika and Kaguya's profiles have been updated to scale them above Doremy, and since most of the verse currently scales to those two, this should be acceptable for 2-C scaling, I hope.

Hermits still scale to 2-C by scaling to Suiki, who is comparable to Suika. Nothing else about the scaling chains have changed, though if anyone has any objections please let me know and I'll try to change the profiles accordingly.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Just to make sure, are the Low 2-C would be gone?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Just to make sure, are the Low 2-C would be gone?

What exactly do you mean?
If you're asking if the L2-C rating is being removed from profiles, then yes.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions, and what is the progress, here so far?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

What are the conclusions, and what is the progress, here so far?

I think almost everything that has been discussed here has been accepted and applied to the appropriate profiles, and we still need to discuss the possibility of downgrading Alice and Patchouli, as well as a possible infinite speed upgrade. If anyone thinks that these topics would be better saved for a separate CRT, please say so.