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Some Ups and Downs for Touhou Project
- Thread starter OnsokunoSonic
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Okay. Thank you for the summary. Can you explain the full contexts for the remaining topics please?
ShinyMagicalGirl
She/Her- 1,183
- 218
Would Infinite speed for Kaguya be only via her ability, her natural speed, or is it just time hax? Also if it IS infinite speed, would this mean everyone who scales to Kaguya normally scales to Infinite speed as well?
Infinite speed is a pretty big deal after all. I always thought Kaguya was just watching infinite fragments of space-time like the Watcher from MCU, but if Kaguya ACTUALLY perceives time instantly all at once then that does maybe seem like infinite speed. Can someone explain the argument for Infinite speed Kaguya in easier detail?
Infinite speed is a pretty big deal after all. I always thought Kaguya was just watching infinite fragments of space-time like the Watcher from MCU, but if Kaguya ACTUALLY perceives time instantly all at once then that does maybe seem like infinite speed. Can someone explain the argument for Infinite speed Kaguya in easier detail?
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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RethPo believes that Patchouli and Alice should only have a 2-C rating with their magic, and be 9-B physically due to them being described as having weak bodies. I'm not sure who originally proposed this, but Kaguya should have infinite speed via her ability to move and react within single instants, and possible immeasurable speed since her ability lets her have multiple parallel histories, which could be interpreted as having multiple temporal dimensions.
It's probably just due to her ability, but Mokou and by extension the IN protagonists would still scale since Mokou has fought Kaguya to the death every day for hundreds of years, and Kaguya would have no reason to hold back in that case.
This is better explained on Onsokuno's blog, but the general idea is that Kaguya's ability allows her to move and act within single instants, which are described as units of time that are impossible to perceive normally, and time is made up of an infinite number of instants. Basically, moving and reacting instantaneously = infinite speed.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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Almost definitely. Perfect Memento in Strict Sense describes it as such. The phrase 'even though time progresses normally' also proves it isn't just time manipulation, since if time were being slowed down, sped up, or stopped, it wouldn't be 'progressing normally'.
Toyohime further supports this by stating that instants are not normally perceptible by living beings, and an infinite number of them makes up time itself, so a single instant would have to be infinitely small.
So we can conclude that instants are so small that an individual one cannot normally be perceived by living beings, and that Kaguya's ability to move and act within these instants is accomplished via sheer speed and not time manipulation.
Toyohime further supports this by stating that instants are not normally perceptible by living beings, and an infinite number of them makes up time itself, so a single instant would have to be infinitely small.
So we can conclude that instants are so small that an individual one cannot normally be perceived by living beings, and that Kaguya's ability to move and act within these instants is accomplished via sheer speed and not time manipulation.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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I'd also like to point out that if instants aren't infinitely small and are in fact a measurable unit of time that just happens to be very small, the phrase "time is made up of countless instants" wouldn't make sense, since it would have to be finite in some capacity. Time is made up of a finite number of seconds, milliseconds, nanoseconds, etc, while it is made up of an infinite number of instants. So a single instant would have to be infinitely small.
ShinyMagicalGirl
She/Her- 1,183
- 218
So this Infinite speed should only be via an ability, kind of like Edmond Dantes from Fate and him being Immeasurable only with an ability.
But even though its via an ability, it would still scale naturally to Reimu and the protags and others? That's kind of weird.
But even though its via an ability, it would still scale naturally to Reimu and the protags and others? That's kind of weird.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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I agree that its weird, but there's no reason to assume they wouldn't scale. Mokou regularly keeps up with Kaguya in fights to the death, and the IN protagonists fought both of them. Eirin also upscales massively from Kaguya, which should also apply to other god tiers like Sagume.
ShinyMagicalGirl
She/Her- 1,183
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I'm not against it really but it seems like a circle reasoning. Like, if its only via an ability, yet IN protags would scale and be Infinite speed normally, then shouldn't Kaguya also be Infinite speed normally even without the ability?
Also to clarify, does Kaguya "see every instance in time simultaneously" or "perceives time instantly", aka her reaction time is 0 seconds? Cuz the former sounds like Immeasurable reactions and perception (like BB from Fate again wow anyways she has a feat like that and its gives her Immeasurable reactions) and then the former is prolly infinite speed.
Either way this speed buff would totally change A LOT for most Touhou matchups outside here. In VSBW itself it doesn't matter since there's speed equal but outside, they'd blitzhax everyone and win lmao
Also to clarify, does Kaguya "see every instance in time simultaneously" or "perceives time instantly", aka her reaction time is 0 seconds? Cuz the former sounds like Immeasurable reactions and perception (like BB from Fate again wow anyways she has a feat like that and its gives her Immeasurable reactions) and then the former is prolly infinite speed.
Either way this speed buff would totally change A LOT for most Touhou matchups outside here. In VSBW itself it doesn't matter since there's speed equal but outside, they'd blitzhax everyone and win lmao
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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Kaguya perceives and moves within instants, so the latter. You could argue that her ability to have multiple parallel histories is the former, but that statement is incredibly vague and from the looks of things it probably won't be used.
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- Thread starter
- #213
Tbh, I think we should make another 2-C justification rating, via Doremy.
Guardian_Doge
He/Him- 628
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Like reword it?
- 2,636
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- Thread starter
- #215
Yeah.
Guardian_Doge
He/Him- 628
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What do you propose, right now I'm a bit cloudy in terms of motivation.
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- Thread starter
- #217
Low Multiverse level (Is able to control the Dream World, which is a realm that contained 2 infinite sized realms, the Land of Backdoors and the Netherworld, the latter is a realm larger than hell, which is stated to be infinite in size).
Guardian_Doge
He/Him- 628
- 606
That seems fine to me, maybe add: "Can also create and destroy a multitude of dreams, in which are established to be separate realties." but yours alone is fine. Let's see what Fujiwara says.
- 2,636
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- Thread starter
- #219
Do you have an idea how will the scaling chain look like?
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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Honestly I think the justification currently on her page works fine for 2-C. I don't personally think anything needs to be changed there
As for the scaling chain, Sagume and other god tiers already upscale massively, and Suika, Kaguya, and Aya should all upscale. Not a whole lot needs to be changed since most characters are indirectly scaled to those 3 anyways, and I've already updated Suika and Kaguya's profiles accordingly. Though if you think anything else needs to be added please let me know.
As for the scaling chain, Sagume and other god tiers already upscale massively, and Suika, Kaguya, and Aya should all upscale. Not a whole lot needs to be changed since most characters are indirectly scaled to those 3 anyways, and I've already updated Suika and Kaguya's profiles accordingly. Though if you think anything else needs to be added please let me know.
- 2,636
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- Thread starter
- #221
Can you remind me why Suika, Kaguya, and Aya upscale from Doremy?
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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Doremy is 'not a particularly strong youkai' according to ZUN, so youkai we know to be considered strong or otherwise high ranking should upscale. And it should go without saying that Lunarians upscale as well, which would include Kaguya.
- 2,636
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- Thread starter
- #223
Sounds good.Doremy is 'not a particularly strong youkai' according to ZUN, so youkai we know to be considered strong or otherwise high ranking should upscale. And it should go without saying that Lunarians upscale as well, which would include Kaguya.
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Okay. I suppose that infinite speed seems fine then.Almost definitely. Perfect Memento in Strict Sense describes it as such. The phrase 'even though time progresses normally' also proves it isn't just time manipulation, since if time were being slowed down, sped up, or stopped, it wouldn't be 'progressing normally'.
Toyohime further supports this by stating that instants are not normally perceptible by living beings, and an infinite number of them makes up time itself, so a single instant would have to be infinitely small.
So we can conclude that instants are so small that an individual one cannot normally be perceived by living beings, and that Kaguya's ability to move and act within these instants is accomplished via sheer speed and not time manipulation.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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I think so, yes.
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For me personally... kasen already canonically stomped reimu and was invulnerable to her. And hermits can only keep up with kishin (stronger oni) through lots of training, hermits and oni both take place in gensokyos power balance iirc and marisa almost killed seiga. Reimus exterminated tons of oni without scr although i think marisas been portrayed as being crushed by oni without her mini hakkero in some ending (i cant remember well so take that with a grain of salt)
Sooo from what i see, Kasen, sages, suika etc >= Kishin > Reimu >= Oni >= Marisa, youmu, sakuya and other peak 2hu humans >= Hermits > Tengu
Sooo from what i see, Kasen, sages, suika etc >= Kishin > Reimu >= Oni >= Marisa, youmu, sakuya and other peak 2hu humans >= Hermits > Tengu
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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It seems like Doremy's profile already describes the context of her 2-C feat well enough, so it remains unchanged. Suika and Kaguya's profiles have been changed to scale them above Doremy, and since most characters are either directly or indirectly scaled to those two (for example, Suika = Suiki = Hermits & Kaguya = Mokou < IN cast), I believe no further changes need to be made to the verse to justify 2-C. If anyone disagrees with the current scaling chain please let me know and I will try to fix it.
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There was more context to the kasen fight. The left arm took a solid portion of Reimu's power and amped itself that's why it was able to bfr Reimu in the first place. Plus Reimu didn't want to fight Kasen until she got the resolve to.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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Is it ever shown or stated that Reimu is far above other humans in terms of AP? To me, it seems like her being above characters like Marisa is moreso due to hax than physical stats. After all, CoLA makes it pretty clear most of Marisa's losses to Reimu are due to her having no way of getting around fantasy nature.
Also, Marisa losing to an oni while lacking the one piece of equipment she uses to cast magic should not be used for scaling. That'd be like making a scaling chain where Iron Man is ranked based on his feats done solely without his suits.
^ This too
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That... would mean shes physically weaker than oni but around or above them with the equipment yes.
Considering how suika and oni are portrayed with their strength though compared to most human characters it is weird to have the humans as phyically superior. Im pretty sure as well wearing out mokou would just make them on that level above anything else.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,447
Yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to say. You putting her below oni based on an instance of her losing without one of the pieces of equipment that literally defines her character is wrong.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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Anyways, has the infinite speed upgrade been accepted? Seems like whenever the topic comes up it gets overtaken by something else.
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- Thread starter
- #235
Ant said it's fine. Also, what's the word justification for this, and infinite is only for their reaction speed right?
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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The justification on Kaguya's profile would probably be something like "Can move and act within instants, a single one of which is too small to be perceived normally, and time is made up of an infinite number of instants", though I'm open to different phrasing since that's something I've never been good at.
Also, why would it only be for reaction speed? If she's used this ability against Mokou regularly (which she almost definitely has since the entire point of their fights is to kill each other), then it's pretty clearly combat speed.
Also, why would it only be for reaction speed? If she's used this ability against Mokou regularly (which she almost definitely has since the entire point of their fights is to kill each other), then it's pretty clearly combat speed.
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If we're going down this route I don't know how concrete this is, but Reisen sealed up every door in the infinite corridor and only messed up one of the seals iirc
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other sites would take a look at our updated rankings and then proceed to rank touhou lower because of spite.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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Where is this from? I don't doubt you, this is just the first time I'm hearing of this.
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- Thread starter
- #240
I was asking, so no infinite travel speed?
Sounds like infinite speed to me.
| Reimu | さぁ、さっきのを追うわよ。 | Okay, now let's go chase that other one down. |
|---|---|---|
| Yukari | さっきのは何処に入っていったのかしら？ 扉が多すぎて判らないわ。 | But which door did they enter? There are so many, I can't tell. |
| Reimu | 紫。 ほら、あそこの扉……。 | Yukari. Look, that door over there... |
| Reisen | ああまずい！ 封印が間に合わなかったわ。 | Oh no! I didn't finish sealing them in time. |
| Yukari | 犯人はそこかしら？ | Is the culprit in there? |
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