Some Ups and Downs for Touhou Project

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Moon rabbits aren't Lunarians, they're nowhere close in terms of power. Moon rabbits kinda fall into a weird limbo that a lot of other characters are in, where they're obviously a lot stronger than fairies, but there's no way to actually quantify the power gap so they're stuck in 9-B hell.

 

[BlastX]

Kay, thanks for answering

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Okay. The first one seems like explicit proof for 2-C. What are the reasons for your more conservative rating @Jasonsith ?

I agree with Ant, it should've been a solid 2-C in my opinion.

 

[Bummel]

What do you mean?

For kaguya eternity manipulation we doesnt categorize it to time manipulation/causality manipulation/reality warping

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

For kaguya eternity manipulation we doesnt categorize it to time manipulation/causality manipulation/reality warping

Yeah

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Bumpy

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. The first one seems like explicit proof for 2-C. What are the reasons for your more conservative rating @Jasonsith ?

@Jasonsith

 

[Jasonsith]

Kaguya: Can create multiple parallel histories (timelines) with her power of instantaneous.
Doremy: created Sumireko's endless nightmare which contained other realties infinite in size like Land of the Backdoor or the Netherworld.

(Those are the ones we have right now.)

Doremy's "nightmares" can be questionable but Kaguya's looks like solid enough "as space-time continua" with the scans.

Now everyone scale from Kaguya by fully fighting her. Make sure that gets included when justifying the general strength in the verse profile.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Doremy's "nightmares" can be questionable but Kaguya's looks like solid enough "as space-time continua" with the scans.

Now everyone scale from Kaguya by fully fighting her. Make sure that gets included when justifying the general strength in the verse profile.

So everyone got a solid 2-C?

 

[Antvasima]

It seems so, yes. Thank you for the reply Jason.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Well I guess everything has been accepted.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Now, I need to create a page and link it to the main page right?

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

2-C Touhou is a thing. A good day indeed~

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So everything has been accepted? Kinda surprised considering how big of a change this all is but I'm not complaining.

Also, before any editing is done we should probably figure out the specific phrasing that will be used for explaining certain abilities (youkai physics/gravity manip, gods type 4/resurrection, passive fate/probability manip for old characters, etc). We might also need to figure out who exactly is old enough to have passive fate/probability manipulation.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

In downside the 2-C upgrade made some of my planned matches for Touhou meaningless lel

 

[Antvasima]

Now, I need to create a page and link it to the main page right?

Do you mean create a Touhou explanation page that is linked to in the Touhou verse page?

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Do you mean create a Touhou explanation page that is linked to in the Touhou verse page?

Yeah, just like the plan.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

If that's the case, I think Onsokuno's blog shall work for that.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Also, before any editing is done we should probably figure out the specific phrasing that will be used for explaining certain abilities (youkai physics/gravity manip, gods type 4/resurrection, passive fate/probability manip for old characters, etc). We might also need to figure out who exactly is old enough to have passive fate/probability manipulation.

Good idea, maybe someone else can do it cuz I need to sleep rn.

 

[Antvasima]

Yeah, just like the plan.

Okay. If that has been accepted here, it is probably fine, but make sure to write it in a properly structured manner.

 

[Antvasima]

If that's the case, I think Onsokuno's blog shall work for that.

Weren't we supposed to create a regular page that can be edited by others afterwards?

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Okay. If that has been accepted here, it is probably fine, but make sure to write it in a properly structured manner.

Yeah, I'm gonna re worded it a bit

Weren't we supposed to create a regular page that can be edited by others afterwards?

I think Heca is trying to say that my blog can the be the "base" of the page

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

In the meantime, I do advice someone apply the changes, If someone can do it of course. I'll deal with the page.

 

[Antvasima]

Please remember to carefully read through and follow the instructions in our Common Editing Mistakes page, so no badly structured edits are made, and extensive cleanup work will not be necessary.

If you change the statistics for any characters, also remember to update the tier categories at the bottoms of the profile pages.

Also, when you apply this revision, please insert a link to this thread into the edit summary boxes, so your edits are not mistaken for vandalism.

 

[Mobi2]

Doremy's "nightmares" can be questionable but Kaguya's looks like solid enough "as space-time continua" with the scans.

Now everyone scale from Kaguya by fully fighting her. Make sure that gets included when justifying the general strength in the verse profile.

Speaking of which should we include the statement that implied that Kaguya was trying to injure the Scarlet Team due to them not receiving a single injury from Reisen or Eirin? Also some of the scaling comes from Mokou so should we also change the reasoning on profile from "On par with Kaguya and other high tiers" to "Her and Kaguya have fought many times before and exchanged mutual murders"?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Okay, I've done everyone up to Imperishable Night, It's getting late here so I need to go to bed soon. If anyone wants to pick up where I've left off, please feel free to do so, just please check the already completed pages and copy the ability explanations for consistency's sake. If you have an issue with how something is worded, feel free to change it (but make sure it's changed across all pages).

Also, can someone please double check Eirin's page for me? There's a lot there and I wanna be absolutely sure I got everything right.

Also huge shoutout to Ant for putting up with my crappy editing skills.

 

[Malomtek]

Why is Eirin's "primordial form" listed as being somehow weaker than her physical manifestation?

In fact, since we're already going full-throttle with this, shouldn't the "primordial forms" of all the gods scale upward from low multiversal or whatever?

 

[Malomtek]

And uh

Striking Strength: At least MHigh Universal, possibly Universal+

Tenryu's page might need some proofreading.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Why is Eirin's "primordial form" listed as being somehow weaker than her physical manifestation?

In fact, since we're already going full-throttle with this, shouldn't the "primordial forms" of all the gods scale upward from low multiversal or whatever?

Right.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Alright, the new page is already created and linked to the main page. Here's the link to it.

 

[RethPo]

Sorry to butt in late here but were really upgrading the entire cast to 2-C based on the statement "Using this time, she can have multiple parallel histories at once."

That statement is completely vague and doesnt even make sense in english and sounds like it was thrown straight into google translate, what is "have" actually supposed to mean and why are we automatically assuming create?... Unless the actual context makes it any better. Im pretty sure this isnt the first time its been brought up either.

Doremys feat should maybe be okay but that doesnt scale to as many characters.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Hi Rethpo, the kanji for the sentence:

その時間を利用すると異なった歴史を複数持つ事が出来るという。

Which accordingly “持つ” would be the specific kanji for have, but can also translate to “to posses or be in charge of“. Take that as you will.

 

[RethPo]

The full context is here https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Kaguya_Houraisan

Not sure im fully understanding the last bit but, its her manipulating small moments in time which are composed of instants (unchanging moments) and acting on them.
Which lets her "have multiple parallel histories" at once.
Think its worth mentioning history in touhou tends to just refer to the events and reality of specific things sometimes from peoples perspectives and this does bring up the perspective of humans as well.
If this is the case then isnt this just more referring to multiple different perceptions of herself due to manipulating countless unchanging moments faster than anybody can percieve?
Her just flat out creating multiple universal timelines on ability that describes nothing like that and at most doing it by hax is a serious stretch even for a possibly rating to me.

Possession or being in charge of something doesnt normally mean much anyway unless its having some kind of physical reality bending power over something.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Why is Eirin's "primordial form" listed as being somehow weaker than her physical manifestation?

In fact, since we're already going full-throttle with this, shouldn't the "primordial forms" of all the gods scale upward from low multiversal or whatever?

I wasn't aware the primordial form ratings were being changed too since they don't scale to the rest of the cast, though I can go back and fix it.

Is the rest of Eirin's page fine? I also wanna apologize for not continuing the edits for so long, sleep/IRL stuff got in the way.

 

[Antvasima]

Alright, the new page is already created and linked to the main page. Here's the link to it.

It needs to be revised to be written as a professional matter of fact official information article, without any personal subjective point of view statements. See below for example:

Touhou Powers and Abilities Explanation

Touhou Project is a very wide verse. This may cause newcomers to not understand the reasoning for our ratings. This page is created to explain feats that need more context to properly understand. This section will explain characters physiology, thus anyone that fall under these races will have...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Antvasima]

Sorry to butt in late here but were really upgrading the entire cast to 2-C based on the statement "Using this time, she can have multiple parallel histories at once."

That statement is completely vague and doesnt even make sense in english and sounds like it was thrown straight into google translate, what is "have" actually supposed to mean and why are we automatically assuming create?... Unless the actual context makes it any better. Im pretty sure this isnt the first time its been brought up either.

Doremys feat should maybe be okay but that doesnt scale to as many characters.

The full context is here https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Kaguya_Houraisan

Not sure im fully understanding the last bit but, its her manipulating small moments in time which are composed of instants (unchanging moments) and acting on them.
Which lets her "have multiple parallel histories" at once.
Think its worth mentioning history in touhou tends to just refer to the events and reality of specific things sometimes from peoples perspectives and this does bring up the perspective of humans as well.
If this is the case then isnt this just more referring to multiple different perceptions of herself due to manipulating countless unchanging moments faster than anybody can percieve?
Her just flat out creating multiple universal timelines on ability that describes nothing like that and at most doing it by hax is a serious stretch even for a possibly rating to me.

Possession or being in charge of something doesnt normally mean much anyway unless its having some kind of physical reality bending power over something.

So what would you suggest as a solution then?

 

[RethPo]

Well... Low 2-C at least under wiki standards seems pretty straight forward with creating and nullifying infinite space times (even though i find universal for most touhou characters questionable for anti feat reasons but thatd be for another time). So id suggest going for outright low 2-C. At best 2-C could be a possibly rating given just how vague that statement is to assume something like that from it.

Doremy and anybody who scales could still be at least low 2-C, possibly 2-C though

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Doremy and anybody who scales could still be at least low 2-C, possibly 2-C though

If we're accepting Doremy's feat as 2-C, basically everyone else who has universal scaling would scale to her, since according to ZUN she's not even a particularly strong youkai, which means tengu, oni, and lunarians would scale above her, which would mean Kaguya scales above, which just wraps back around to the same scaling chain we're currently using, but with extra steps (Doremy < Kaguya = Mokou < IN protagonists).

 

[RethPo]

Didnt doremy used to be 4-A.... And still listed as one of the strongest characters...

If thats the case. Low 2-C possibly 2-C for everyone should work better for them.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Didnt doremy used to be 4-A....

Yeah, and Cirno used to be 6-C. Just because this verse had old tiers doesn't mean they're accurate anymore.

If thats the case. Low 2-C possibly 2-C for everyone should work better for them.

I would be fine with this, but I'll wait and see what everyone else has to say. I personally think flat 2-C should stay since most characters would upscale from Doremy.