Some Ups and Downs for Touhou Project

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Here's an example of "femtosecond speed" calcs I just made up for Kaguya right now, based solely on her "range" stat in her current profile (of course ignoring the already-debunked "multiple timelines" nonsense).

36 meters / 10^-15 = 3.6e+16 m/s = 120,083,074.271 times the speed of light
12,742,000 meters (Earth's diameter) / 10^-15 = 1.2742e+22 m/s = 4.2502737e+13 times the speed of light

Hefty speeds for sure, but not anything special.

Thats 42 trillions times the speed of light. That’s still a huge speed buff compared to the old speeds, so its pretty special.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The DNA thing wasn't meant to be specific proof, it was an example of how scientific knowledge isn't widespread in Touhou. And just because a character knows what something is doesn't mean they have specific knowledge of how that thing works. The DNA example is applicable here, as Aya had the general idea of what it was, but didn't understand much else about it. I knew what things like femtoseconds or picoseconds were before joining this forum, but I had very little practical knowledge or understanding of how they work. I'm saying the same could be reasonably applied to Toyohime given what we know about the setting as a whole.

First of all, stop lying. One of your main arguments regarding the whole "everyone lies" BS was applied to Yuyuko and Youmu, neither of whom live in Gensokyo. Not only that, but assuming that this applies solely to a single location in the vast cosmology of Touhou is cherry picking, plain and simple. And of course Toyohime is gonna start bragging about random BS when she just subdued of Yukari Yakumo of all people (besides, given what we know about how Lunarians believe themselves to be superior to people around them, it'd be pretty in character for Toyohime to do this).

So someone wanting to see their favorite verse upgraded is biased by default and their opinions should be discarded? Might as well burn the whole wiki to the ground in that case. Besides, I've already stopped discussing various topics such as Dream World upgrades and infinite/immeasurable speed for various reasons. Stop living in the past.

You do have a good point about using Kaguya's range to determine her speed, though. Now do it with planck time.

 

[Promestein]

No new information has really been presented so there's not a lot of anything new for me to work with as far as I can see. I made my case; people are free to disagree and if enough do, then whatever. I can't disprove everything.

You do have a good point about using Kaguya's range to determine her speed, though. Now do it with planck time.

Pretty sure this is calc stacking or something, can't do it without a specific feat.

 

[Malomtek]

The DNA thing wasn't meant to be specific proof, it was an example of how scientific knowledge isn't widespread in Touhou. And just because a character knows what something is doesn't mean they have specific knowledge of how that thing works. The DNA example is applicable here, as Aya had the general idea of what it was, but didn't understand much else about it. I knew what things like femtoseconds or picoseconds were before joining this forum, but I had very little practical knowledge or understanding of how they work. I'm saying the same could be reasonably applied to Toyohime given what we know about the setting as a whole.

Why wouldn't Toyohime, a Lunarian princess with a Lunarian education, and presumably high amounts of prior Lunarian knowledge on Kaguya Horaisan and the nature of her abilities, not have "specific knowledge" on what a femtosecond is? Aren't Lunarians supposed to be generally much more intelligent or knowledgeable than terrestrial peoples in the Touhou world?

First of all, stop lying. One of your main arguments regarding the whole "everyone lies" BS was applied to Yuyuko and Youmu, neither of whom live in Gensokyo. Not only that, but assuming that this applies solely to a single location in the vast cosmology of Touhou is cherry picking, plain and simple.

Isn't the Netherworld technically a part of Gensokyo, or at least heavily connected to that area?

And I'm not saying that self-aggrandizing hyperbole is unique to Gensokyo in Touhou, I'm saying it's a general part of Gensokyo's "culture".

And of course Toyohime is gonna start bragging about random BS when she just subdued of Yukari Yakumo of all people (besides, given what we know about how Lunarians believe themselves to be superior to people around them, it'd be pretty in character for Toyohime to do this).

But why would she brag about about femtosecond Kaguya nonsense specifically? Wouldn't she be bragging about her own strange, or the strange of "non-traitor" Lunarians in general?

So someone wanting to see their favorite verse upgraded is biased by default and their opinions should be discarded? Might as well burn the whole wiki to the ground in that case. Besides, I've already stopped discussing various topics such as Dream World upgrades and infinite/immeasurable speed for various reasons. Stop living in the past.

Someone coming into a thread with the full and open intent to upgrade their verse as much as possible are going to come in with very "motivated" reasoning. Such a person should be scrutinized as much as possible, in order that we don't end up rubberstamping hyperinflated stats that will only look super-embarrassing when more sober minds prevail and the downgrades inevitably start coming.

Thats 42 trillions times the speed of light. That’s still a huge speed buff compared to the old speeds, so its pretty special.

It still won't stop them from being blitzed by DBS characters

Considering what you people were previously saying about Kaguya possibly being 61.8 decillion times faster than light and the Touhouverse suddenly becoming one of the top ten fastest finite speed verses in the entire wiki, it's a bit of a downgrade for sure.

No new information has really been presented so there's not a lot of anything new for me to work with as far as I can see. I made my case; people are free to disagree and if enough do, then whatever. I can't disprove everything.

What do you think should be the stats for high-tier Touhou characters moving forward?

My own view pretty much the same as before: at least 4-A, possibly 3-B, with MFTL+ on the side

 

[Promestein]

I personally continue to favor 4-A~3-B and MFTL+.

Any calculations using attacks and unrelated mentions of speed are calc stacking and can't be done, so it's not 61.8 decillion times ftl and it's not 42 trillion times ftl.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Isn't the Netherworld technically a part of Gensokyo, or at least heavily connected to that area?

No. It's an entirely separate Otherworld, and it has never been treated as a simple extension of Gensokyo.

And I'm not saying that self-aggrandizing hyperbole is unique to Gensokyo in Touhou, I'm saying it's a general part of Gensokyo's "culture".

It really isn't. And you would need to provide specific evidence for a character lying rather than insist its part of a 'culture' anyways.

But why would she brag about about femtosecond Kaguya nonsense specifically? Wouldn't she be bragging about her own strange, or the strange of "non-traitor" Lunarians in general?

She wasn't. She was talking specifically about the femtofiber rope she was using. No mention of Kaguya was ever made in that statement.

Someone coming into a thread with the full and open intent to upgrade their verse as much as possible are going to come in with very "motivated" reasoning. Such a person should be scrutinized as much as possible, in order that we don't end up rubberstamping hyperinflated stats that will only look super-embarrassing when more sober minds prevail and the downgrades inevitably start coming.

Chill dude, you really need to stop acting like you're god's gift to VS debating and everyone who disagrees with you is an incompetent dumbass.

It still won't stop them from being blitzed by DBS characters

Considering what you people were previously saying about Kaguya possibly being 61.8 decillion times faster than light and the Touhouverse suddenly containing some of the fastest finite speed characters on the wiki, it's a bit of a downgrade for sure.

What is it with your obsession with DBS characters being able to kill Touhou characters, anyways? And you still haven't addressed the planck time stuff, which would surely be far higher. Or would that hurt your precious preconceptions that DBS is superior to Touhou?

Why wouldn't Toyohime, a Lunarian princess with a Lunarian education, and presumably high amounts of prior Lunarian knowledge on Kaguya Horaisan and the nature of her abilities, not have "specific knowledge" on what a femtosecond is? Aren't Lunarians supposed to be generally much more intelligent or knowledgeable than terrestrial peoples in the Touhou world?

Not really? Not every Lunarian has specific knowledge of the ins and outs of Kaguya's ability. And like I said, just because Toyohime knows about the existence of femtoseconds doesn't mean she knows the very specific amount of time that's referring to.

Pretty sure this is calc stacking or something, can't do it without a specific feat.

Fair enough; back to the decillions range we go (the decillion number wasn't determined using attack range). Not that I'm complaining.

No new information has really been presented so there's not a lot of anything new for me to work with as far as I can see. I made my case; people are free to disagree and if enough do, then whatever. I can't disprove everything.

It feels like a lot of new information has been presented though? At least in regards to the consistency of Akyuu's statement, Sagume's occult ball creation, and Kaguya speed scaling. I'm still vehemently against rejecting feats or statements purely on the basis of them being vague; if that's what we're doing here, we may as well delete Touhou from the wiki entirely.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I still don't understand why Miko's H3-A/L2-C feat is considered an outlier when every other tier that has been suggested is equally debatable. We don't have many feats to work with here, and they're all at different tiers.

 

[Promestein]

It feels like a lot of new information has been presented though? At least in regards to the consistency of Akyuu's statement, Sagume's occult ball creation, and Kaguya speed scaling.

I continue to dispute Akyuu's statement and will dispute any statement from her not stated with confidence.

I think the Kaguya speed scaling is stupid but it's not like you got anything new there, not really. If other people continue to agree, what can I do?

Sagume's feat is weird and I'm not looking to dispute it.

 

[Urshani]

I still don't understand why Miko's H3-A/L2-C feat is considered an outlier when every other tier that has been suggested is equally debatable. We don't have many feats to work with here, and they're all at different tiers.

Blame it on ZUN.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

As I said before, we cannot reasonably reject feats for this verse because a statement is vague or it's just a one off. We can't just demand context and elaboration forever; otherwise this verse might as well just be dead.

If these are the standards we're using, we would need to get rid of MFTL+ speeds (the interstellar feats are vague), FTL speeds (nothing explicitly confirming the numerous light attacks are actual light), 99% of the things Rinnosuke says about characters or the cosmology (he's gotten basic info wrong before), everything about the primordial forms of the gods (its pretty vague), Tenshi's Heaven shaking (it's one feat, and its a statement from a character who's likely to lie), fairy immortality and regeneration (Akyuu isn't a valid source, apparently)... I could go on. Either kill the verse entirely or accept the fact that we have to make do with vague statements sometimes.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Also, looking back, you haven't really engaged with many of the points brought up. This is fine by itself, but I really don't think it's right to make a decision when you haven't even addressed the majority of evidence given. For example, Guardian_Doge's post regarding dreams being 2-C was just completely ignored. No offense, but it really seems like you're just cherry picking what to debate and ignoring everything else, and then claiming no new points have been brought up even though they have, you just chose to ignore them.

Look, this thread is way bigger than it reasonably should be, and you shouldn't be expected to keep track of everything. But don't confidently state that "nothing new has been brought up" if that's the case.

 

[Malomtek]

No. It's an entirely separate Otherworld, and it has never been treated as a simple extension of Gensokyo.

Are you sure, because the Touhou wiki certainly doesn't agree with you on that one.

"Even though the dead comprise most of the Netherworld's inhabitants, the Netherworld is a distinct part of Gensokyo."

It really isn't. And you would need to provide specific evidence for a character lying rather than insist its part of a 'culture' anyways.

You mean all those hyperbolic and vague claims yokais generally make in Gensokyo isn't part of some wider "culture"? Please.

She wasn't. She was talking specifically about the femtofiber rope she was using. No mention of Kaguya was ever made in that statement.

Well she clearly knows something about "femto-" prefix stuff, and there's no reason for her to be unknowledgeable or lying about the properties of something that can seal up Yukari Yakumo, so I don't know why you'd think that would mean she doesn't have knowledge of whatever specific terms she's talking about generally or specifically.

Chill dude, you really need to stop acting like you're god's gift to VS debating and everyone who disagrees with you is an incompetent dumbass.

How did you get that intensive psychological profile from a statement that openly biased people with heavily motivated reasoning should be scrutinized more than the average?

What is it with your obsession with DBS characters being able to kill Touhou characters, anyways?

I was making a joke.

And you still haven't addressed the planck time stuff, which would surely be far higher.

Because that's just a fanfiction-y wet dream openly contradicted by the story. Next.

Or would that hurt your precious preconceptions that DBS is superior to Touhou?

Zeno could literally solo the entire Touhou universe at once.

I don't care whether Super-Ultra Instinct Super Saiyan Platinum Omni-God 10 Kaio-ken x 200 Quinjinzillion Goku could solo Touhou in under 5 Planck instants or not. You just can't take even the littlest jokes because you're so uptight all the time.

Not really? Not every Lunarian has specific knowledge of the ins and outs of Kaguya's ability. And like I said, just because Toyohime knows about the existence of femtoseconds doesn't mean she knows the very specific amount of time that's referring to.

Except Toyohime's education and knowledge would be better than most, especially on Kaguya's case - Kaguya being former Lunarian royalty. And the notion that she can mention femtoseconds without knowing the exact amount of time that refers to, when you or I can look it up on Google right now and find that out in seconds, is completely ridiculous.

Fair enough; back to the decillions range we go (the decillion number wasn't determined using attack range). Not that I'm complaining.

We are not doing "decillions of times FTL" Touhou. I am just not letting that catastrophe of wank go through.

If these are the standards we're using, we would need to get rid of MFTL+ speeds (the interstellar feats are vague), FTL speeds (nothing explicitly confirming the numerous light attacks are actual light), 99% of the things Rinnosuke says about characters or the cosmology (he's gotten basic info wrong before), everything about the primordial forms of the gods (its pretty vague), Tenshi's Heaven shaking (it's one feat, and its a statement from a character who's likely to lie), fairy immortality and regeneration (Akyuu isn't a valid source, apparently)... I could go on. Either kill the verse entirely or accept the fact that we have to make do with vague statements sometimes.

Well I guess it's time for a massive downgrade then (ooooooh mama).

Also, looking back, you haven't really engaged with many of the points brought up. This is fine by itself, but I really don't think it's right to make a decision when you haven't even addressed the majority of evidence given. For example, Guardian_Doge's post regarding dreams being 2-C was just completely ignored. No offense, but it really seems like you're just cherry picking what to debate and ignoring everything else, and then claiming no new points have been brought up even though they have, you just chose to ignore them.

Look, this thread is way bigger than it reasonably should be, and you shouldn't be expected to keep track of everything. But don't confidently state that "nothing new has been brought up" if that's the case.

I'm pretty sure @Promestein already directly refuted that.

In other words:

@Antvasima Prom has made the decision:

I personally continue to favor 4-A~3-B and MFTL+.

Any calculations using attacks and unrelated mentions of speed are calc stacking and can't be done, so it's not 61.8 decillion times ftl and it's not 42 trillion times ftl.

Touhou is to be downgraded to at least 4-A to possibly 3-B, because of Tenshi's shaking of at least Bhava-agra heaven, which is considered as containing multiple galaxies inside of it, as well as threatening to destroy the "heavens and the earth" in some insane screed. The primordial gods are downgraded back to Low 2-C, and the Touhou top speeds remain clocked at their current MFTL+ ratings and justifications.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Zeno could literally solo the entire Touhou universe at once.

I don't care whether Super-Ultra Instinct Super Saiyan Platinum Omni-God 10 Kaio-ken x 200 Quinjinzillion Goku could solo Touhou in under 5 Planck instants or not. You just can't take even the littlest jokes because you're so uptight all the time.

I was making a joke.

You should avoid this kind of comment in CRTs and also stop with ''jokes'', you already was warned before, and that's also totally off-topic to the thread, CRTs are meant to be serious places, mainly the controversial ones, making jokes does not makes the situtation better, it's actually, otherwise.

Are you sure, because the Touhou wiki certainly doesn't agree with you on that one.

others wiki are irrelevant

 

[Malomtek]

You should avoid this kind of comment in CRTs and also stop with ''jokes'', you already was warned before, and that's also totally off-topic to the thread, CRTs are meant to be serious places, mainly the controversial ones, making jokes does not makes the situtation better, it's actually, otherwise.

Never mind then.

others wiki are irrelevant

I bring it up because nothing really suggests that Gensokyo and the Netherworld are entirely separate places like @FujiwaraYesMokou claims they are.

 

[Bernkastelll]

I bring it up because nothing really suggests that Gensokyo and the Netherworld are entirely separate places like @FujiwaraYesMokou claims they are.

it shouldnt be bring up, if Fuji claims that they are, she/he needs to send scans proving it, and if you disagree with it, you need to send scans proving your side, but using others wikis aren't really relevant

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Look, you need to actually provide evidence for this shit. The wiki gives no source for that quote, and saying that they are 'distinct parts' that are separated by a barrier clearly means they are not the same location. I don't care how common lying is in Gensokyo, YOU NEED TO PROVIDE ACTUAL EVIDENCE THAT A GIVEN CHARACTER IS LYING. Planck time is never contradicted by the story. If it is, show some ******* evidence. It makes no sense to apply femtoseconds to a physical object like the femtofiber Toyohime had. Why is your ability to google how long a femtosecond relavent when google does not ******* exist in Gensokyo (or the Lunar Capital for that matter)? If decillions times FTL is wank, where is your evidence? ******* prove it if its so obviously wank according to you.

And I don't think it's fair to say that Prom has determined the thread is over when she has outright ignored numerous points made, and has even outright stated that there are some things she refuses to touch.

And if Prom has refuted Guardian_Doge's post as you claim, where? Show me.

This entire thread you've done nothing but make claims without a shred of evidence or even a single scan. Respectfully, either provide those things, or stop posting.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The Netherworld/Gensokyo thing isn't even relevant here, I was just using it as an example of the inconsistencies present in Malomtek's argument. It has virtually no impact on any of the proposed changes.

 

[Malomtek]

Look, you need to actually provide evidence for this shit. The wiki gives no source for that quote, and saying that they are 'distinct parts' that are separated by a barrier clearly means they are not the same location.

A city can be separated from another city by a barrier, but both cities are still in the same general location - a state.

Also you have shown no proof that Gensokyo and Netherworld are entirely separate locations from each other.

I don't care how common lying is in Gensokyo, YOU NEED TO PROVIDE ACTUAL EVIDENCE THAT A GIVEN CHARACTER IS LYING.

But you don't need evidence to show that Toyohime was wrong when she said Kaguya's ability works in "femtoseconds"? Please.

Planck time is never contradicted by the story. If it is, show some ******* evidence.

Femtosecond time is never contradicted by the story either. Stop asserting your beliefs about 2hu as if they're true facts.

It makes no sense to apply femtoseconds to a physical object like the femtofiber Toyohime had.

How is Kaguya's "instant" manipulation a "physical object"?

Why is your ability to google how long a femtosecond relavent when google does not ******* exist in Gensokyo (or the Lunar Capital for that matter)?

Because Lunarians have super-advanced technology in Touhou canon and they should therefore logically be able to look this stuff up in microseconds.

C'mon now, these are basic facts about Touhou you're ignoring right now.

If decillions times FTL is wank, where is your evidence? ******* prove it if its so obviously wank according to you.

I don't need to prove it's wank when you've not even established anything solid in favor of it yet. Right now, all you've brought up are half-formed possibilities and hypotheticals that don't put "planck speed" Touhou on any foundation more firm and rigid than the same hot air that generated the idea in the first place.

And like Prom said: "Any calculations using attacks and unrelated mentions of speed are calc stacking and can't be done, so it's not 61.8 decillion times ftl and it's not 42 trillion times ftl."

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You're shifting the burden of proof here. You're making batshit insane claims like "Lunarians can use Google" and then saying I have to prove you wrong. Also, again, Kaguya was never mentioned in the scan where Toyohime mentions femto. I am saying it is unlikely she is using units of time to measure a physical object (the femtofiber rope). She simply uses time as a point of comparison. She never mentions Kaguya here either, and I never implied anything of the sort. And Prom's statement was in regards to using attacks, not scaling to reaction times. She has made no statement on the latter.

Show scans or shut the hell up. You've done nothing but grind this thread to a screeching halt because whenever you are faced with the mere possibility of a Touhou upgrade, you moan and whine about how wrong everyone is and how you're the only person who uses "facts" and "logic". Everyone here is sick of your shit man.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Also, you taking staff member's statements and interpreting them however you wish, regardless of accuracy, isn't a good look. It just further tears down what little credibility you already had.

 

[Promestein]

For example, Guardian_Doge's post regarding dreams being 2-C was just completely ignored. No offense, but it really seems like you're just cherry picking what to debate and ignoring everything else, and then claiming no new points have been brought up even though they have, you just chose to ignore them.

What post are you referring to? What points? I remember something about dreams = reality, but that was about it and not really something necessarily worth debating, I asked about things having separate spacetimes, but if all you give me is "dreams = reality", I have nothing really to say. Some things are bound to slip by me, I have my own life with my own obligations and distractions so I'm not able to follow every post of this thread, especially when most of it is useless, bitchy bullshit from one party or the other.

At no point did I say the thread was over or bar any decisions, also, don't mischaracterize me like that. I'm arguing against what I feel is incorrect or otherwise disputable, and I don't see much point in arguing something I don't feel I can properly dispute. I may disagree with High 3-A~2-C, but if people can bring up valid points then whatever. I'm more concerned with the reasons for them being High 3-A~2-C being good, and disputing things as I have has made people bring up good evidence that's harder to dispute, so.

Anyways, chill the **** out. Enough of this shit.

It's not that decillions times ftl is necessarily wank, just that you don't have anything to concretely vouch for it; using an attack with no stated speed and smacking on a timeframe from something else is calc stacking and against rules. As it stands, all we have are vague timeframes for an ability Kaguya doesn't really explicitly use; I'm sorry, but this isn't as significant featwise and you may like to believe it is.

We've been given multiple timeframes and descriptions for Kaguya's ability; we can't just go with the biggest one above the others, we have to account for all of them.

One last time - chill the **** out. Official warning. Don't test me here.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Okay. Apologies.

I was not aware the thread was not being closed. Thank you for clarifying, and I hope Malomtek takes note of this as well. I still take issue with proposing a downgrade when not all issues have been addressed, but there is still room for other members and staff members to add their own opinions.

I can take the time to find the scans Guardian_Doge originally posted in regards to the dream world if that would help.

I was under the impression that your issue with the numbers for Kaguya's speed was in regards to using her attack range as a basis; The decillions figure was in reference to scaling planck timing to this wiki's standards for reaction speed. I made no reference to her attack speed in any of my posts.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

What post are you referring to? What points? I remember something about dreams = reality, but that was about it and not really something necessarily worth debating, I asked about things having separate spacetimes, but if all you give me is "dreams = reality", I have nothing really to say

Hi Prom, the main thing in this thread (even though I think a postpone of the 2-C things would be better) was this when reimu refers to other dreams as realities, and she makes an example of how trying to not accept our dreams leads to an influence of them affecting their reality (the real world).

 

[Promestein]

Thank you for everything. I'm not necessarily proposing a downgrade, personally, just... trying to get things more logically secure, especially after all the faulty information that was advanced earlier. Important to see if things hold up to scrutiny when you've been given reasons to doubt them.

The decillions figure was in reference to scaling planck timing to this wiki's standards for reaction speed. I made no reference to her attack speed in any of my posts.

Gotcha! What page are you using for reference? It's hard to navigate these pages sometimes, is there a chart for this?

Hi Prom, the main thing in this thread (even though I think a postpone of the 2-C things would better) was this when reimu refers to other dreams as realities, and she make an example of how trying to not accept our dreams leads to an influence of them affecting their reality (the real world).

This doesn't do much to support 2-C but I don't really care all that much, in all honesty. It's fine.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Reactions This one, we were specifically comparing the possibility of planck timing to baseline MFTL+ reaction speed.

 

[Promestein]

I'd have someone check that math.

Anyways my issues with the 2-C stuff is more rooted in "are these worlds Low 2-C" than "are the dreams realities"

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Some scans for dream world/dreams being 2-C (or at least dreams and reality being equal to each other), huge thank you to Guardian_Doge for originally finding these.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Anyways my issues with the 2-C stuff is more rooted in "are these worlds Low 2-C" than "are the dreams realities"

Ah, oops. Hope the scans provide some elaboration nevertheless though.

 

[Promestein]

Doremy just goes and says "Real would be misstating things", so...

I digress, that's not really as important, they have some sort of reality and that's what matters, I just thought it was funny that that was being shared as evidence.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I always saw that statement as just separating dreams and reality. It wasn't 'real' because it didn't take place in reality, it took place in a dream, but it still happened regardless. Not that big of a deal though.

 

[Malomtek]

@Promestein I apologize for misunderstanding your statements as a sign of conclusion. I'll try not to jump the gun next time.

You're shifting the burden of proof here. You're making batshit insane claims like "Lunarians can use Google" and then saying I have to prove you wrong.

I said that we can reasonably assume that a super-advanced civilization like the Lunarians should have some sort of information technology that can allow them to instantly look up necessary information, like (indeed) a search engine.

To assume otherwise is just laughably absurd.

As for the dream world stuff, dreams and reality being "two sides of the same coin" or whatever doesn't in any way prove that the Dream World itself is somehow "low multiversal" or 2-C or whatever. Dreams can have any "size", and they are ultimately "just dreams" according to ZUN, after all. We need clear indications that the Dream World contains multiple infinitely universe-sized realms within it for that to be the case.

Does the "real" moon or whatever exist in the Dream World? I need to sort some things out first.

 

[Malomtek]

Hi Prom, the main thing in this thread (even though I think a postpone of the 2-C things would be better) was this when reimu refers to other dreams as realities, and she makes an example of how trying to not accept our dreams leads to an influence of them affecting their reality (the real world).

"...ultimately they're just another reality..."

The fact that Reimu refers to dreams collectively as another reality doesn't bode well for the notion that the Dream World itself is 2-C. Again, dreams can be any size, not necessarily Low 2-C or even High 3-A levels of size. The fact that ZUN still considers them to be fundamentally "less real" than reality despite the supposed conjunction of reality and dreams in the Touhouverse doesn't bode well for a 2-C Dream World either.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Sorry, assuming Lunarians don't have google is absurd now? You have to be trolling at this point. You go on and on about how my 'assumptions' are baseless, and then come up with wild stuff like this with nothing to justify it. At least show some consistency here.

And we still have multiple statements outright saying that dreams = reality. The two sides of the same coin thing is kinda hard to argue against, because one side of a coin cannot be larger or smaller than the other side. They must be equal. Besides, we have far more explicit statements, so splitting hairs over individual ones that are vague or could be interpreted in other ways doesn't really matter much.

 

[Malomtek]

Sorry, assuming Lunarians don't have google is absurd now? You have to be trolling at this point. You go on and on about how my 'assumptions' are baseless, and then come up with wild stuff like this with nothing to justify it. At least show some consistency here.

You cannot seriously stand up and assert that a super-advanced civilization doesn't have the kind of digital information search technology that we already had starting in 1990. If you honestly believe that, then your assumptions are reaching a new level of absurdity and groundlessness.

And we still have multiple statements outright saying that dreams = reality. The two sides of the same coin thing is kinda hard to argue against, because one side of a coin cannot be larger or smaller than the other side. They must be equal. Besides, we have far more explicit statements, so splitting hairs over individual ones that are vague or could be interpreted in other ways doesn't really matter much.

The descriptions of dreams as fundamentally "less real" by ZUN might mean they take far less power/"energy" to sustain, and conversely far less power/"energy" to destroy. Because again, they are ultimately "just dreams" after all.

Even an "infinite" dream can simply end by you waking up, after all. Not that Touhou necessarily has "infinite" dreams, just using that as an example.

And again, does the "real" moon or whatever exist in the Dream World? I need to sort some things out first.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm not arguing the Lunarian google thing anymore. I personally think it's kind of funny to assume that Lunarians are using google on a regular basis (or at all for that matter), but that doesn't mean it's canon. Provide scans, or just drop the topic.

Where is the statement from ZUN saying dreams are less real? And your only argument there hinges on the use of the word 'might' with no evidence to back it up. Dream versions of objects, locations, and characters are exactly the same, which you would know if you looked at the scans I posted. Once again you assert that you have evidence to back up your claims, and refuse to post it.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

dreams and reality being "two sides of the same coin" or whatever doesn't in any way prove that the Dream World itself is somehow "low multiversal" or 2-C or whatever.

Not necessarily, the entire dream world is referred to the opposite side of the coin, it would be in reference to the entire cosmology as that is what reality is indicated to be here.

「夢の世界は絶対あるよ。だって、何度も行ってるもん」		"The dream world definitely exists. I've been there plenty of times."
「それは生身で、ってことかい？」		"You mean, physically?"
「そう生身で。宇宙みたいなところだったり、現実とそんなに変わらないところだったり……」		"Yeah, physically. Sometimes it's like outer space, other times it's not too different from reality."
「そこを夢の世界だと信じている憑拠ひょうきょは何？」		"Okay, but do you have any basis for believing that was actually the dream world?"
「うーん。ここは夢の世界だ、って言う奴が居るから……」		"Um... Well there was someone there who said 'this is the dream world!'"
「それは、前からよく聞く『夢の支配者』って奴かい？」		"Was that the 'ruler of dreams' you told me about before?
「そうね。それ以外にも、夢の住人たちもこれは夢の世界だって言う し」		"Yeah, her. But she's not the only one. Other dream world residents have told me it was the dream world too."

Dreams can have any "size"

Hence why a possibly 2-C rating was given earlier in this thread, due to how the potential size for dreams is still infinite.

and they are ultimately "just dreams" according to ZUN

I think ZUN's WoG on this case heavily falls under DoTA here, the material opposes this concept by treating it as more than just a dream.

We need clear indications that the Dream World contains multiple infinitely universe-sized realms within it for that to be the case.

Which is why I wanted to postpone my scaling for another CRT~

"...ultimately they're just another reality..."

The fact that Reimu refers to dreams collectively as another reality doesn't pose (there was better term for this that starts with "p", but my mind just can't find it right now) well for the notion that the Dream World itself is 2-C.

We can argue semantics like 75% of this thread has been, but yes reimu refers to dreams collectively as each being another reality, the statement before talks about how dream(s) make it easier to talk to gods, and then the sentence after states not accepting the individual dream(s) you have leads to consequences.
The bottom line for this was that single dreams, like Prom states, still have a nature of reality ^ ^, henceforth if an infinite sized world ere to be in a dream, it's still that infinite sized world.

Even an "infinite" dream can simply end by you waking up, after all.

Infinite in this usage sounds like eternity, which yes is technically possible for a dream in touhou at least in Sumireko's special case it was due to her disembodied spirit existing in two separate words at once, the only reason this was solved was due to sumireko finally making the decision which one is the real body and which one isn't.

夢の支配者の説明はこうだ。元々、菫子君にとって幻想郷は憧あこがれの夢の世界だった。最初から彼女にとって、幻想郷に来ることは夢の世界に来ることに等しかった。彼女が結界を超えて生身のまま幻想郷にやってきた時、『都市伝説異変』の影響によって彼女の生身は二つに分かれて、片方が幻想郷に取り残されてしまった。その幻想郷側の彼女がドッペルゲンガーだという。		This is how the ruler of dreams explained it. To Sumireko, Gensokyo was originally the dream world she longed for. At first, coming to Gensokyo was just like coming to the dream world for her. But when she physically crossed the barrier to Gensokyo, she was affected by the 'Urban Legend Incident' and her physical body was split in two, with part of her remaining in Gensokyo. The one left in Gensokyo was her doppelganger.
「と言うことは、菫子君は二人いる？」		"So you're saying Sumireko is two people?"
「外の世界の彼女が寝ているとき、ドッペルゲンガーを介して意識を共有していたと思われます。ドッペルゲンガーは本体がいないと存在できないので、彼女が夢を見るときだけ、幻想郷に現れるのです」		"I believe that whenever she was asleep in the outside world, she shares her consciousness with her doppelganger. As a doppelganger is a being that cannot exist without its original, it would only appear while she was dreaming.

「だったら、もう菫子君の問題は、彼女自身で決着つけて貰うしか無いんじゃないか？　誰が本物の菫子君なのかを。現実の肉体に相応ふさわしいのは誰なのかを」		"In that case, isn't Sumireko the only one who can solve her own problem? Let her decide which one's the real one, or which one deserves a real body."

And again, does the "real" moon or whatever exist in the Dream World? I need to sort some things out first.

It should ^ - ^, the lunar capital's entire dream was existing in the dream world's replica of the Moon, we know it had the same components (purity and what not) because Junko and Hecatia sent fairies (like clownpiece) to spread such impurity.

Junko's current plan required someone who could freely control fairies, as well as someone
who could freely move to and from the Dream World.
Those conditions fit her perfectly.


She and Junko hit it off immediately.
It was to her merit that she greatly enjoyed fighting to begin with.


She also allowed Junko to freely use her subordinate, Clownpiece.


And so, the moon's people escaped into the Dream World.
She filled the surroundings of the Dream World's fake Lunar Capital with life.
Thus, the People of the Moon were completely suppressed.

Hecatia's omake.txt.

 

[Pixy]

Doremy just goes and says "Real would be misstating things", so...

I digress, that's not really as important, they have some sort of reality and that's what matters, I just thought it was funny that that was being shared as evidence.

Dream is not reality sir also thx for pay your attention for this thread Prom here why dream isn't reality

This is from Touhou 16.5 : Violet Detector

 

[Malomtek]

I'm not arguing the Lunarian google thing anymore. I personally think it's kind of funny to assume that Lunarians are using google on a regular basis (or at all for that matter), but that doesn't mean it's canon. Provide scans, or just drop the topic.

I personally think it's funny to assume that a civilization as advanced as the Lunarians doesn't have any sort of search engine technology, but I'm not dropping this topic.

Especially since if I did, you just might springboard back to "Planck instant Kaguya" all over again.

Where is the statement from ZUN saying dreams are less real?

The one where he says that even if you rise to the very top of a dream, it's still just a dream (essentially implying that dreams are fundamentally "less real", and that he never did consider the baku to be a very powerful yokai.

Not necessarily, the entire dream world is referred to the opposite side of the coin, it would be in reference to the entire cosmology as that is what reality is indicated to be here.

Nothing in that quote is particularly indicative of "reality" meaning "the entire Touhou cosmology" in that context. "Reality" could just as easily mean "ordinary, mundane terrestrial life" here.

Hence why a possibly 2-C rating was given earlier in this thread, due to how the potential size for dreams is still infinite.

But that hasn't been proven yet. No single dream has ever yet been proven to be infinite in this thread, so the safest and most conservative assumption is that they're all finite until proven otherwise.

I think ZUN's WoG on this case heavily falls under DoTA here, the material opposes this concept by treating it as more than just a dream.

In what way in particular? It just seems, ironically for your friend @FujiwaraYesMokou over there, that you're dismissing WoG merely because it conflicts with your preconceived notions.

We can argue semantics like 75% of this thread has been, but yes reimu refers to dreams collectively as each being another reality, the statement before talks about how dream(s) make it easier to talk to gods, and then the sentence after states not accepting the individual dream(s) you have leads to consequences.
The bottom line for this was that single dreams, like Prom states, still have a nature of reality ^ ^, henceforth if an infinite sized world ere to be in a dream, it's still that infinite sized world.

But the "unreality" of dreams outranks any small nature of "reality" they might have, if we go by what ZUN says, and therefore even if we find an infinitely big dream realm, it would simply "mean less" than an infinitely big space in the physical world, to the point where that "infinitely big dream realm" might barely even rank tier 11-C in any realistic sense.

Infinite in this usage sounds like eternity

No, I'm talking about infinite size here. I'm pretty sure that "spatial extent = temporal extent" laws don't really apply to dream stuff.

which yes is technically possible for a dream in touhou at least in Sumireko's special case it was due to her disembodied spirit existing in two separate words at once, the only reason this was solved was due to sumireko finally making the decision which one is the real body and which one isn't.

"her physical body was split in two"
"whenever she was asleep"
"she shares her consciousness with her doppelganger"

Doesn't sound like a disembodied spirit stuck in an endless dream where she has to make a choice to break out of it. It sounds more like some weird philosophical "quantum dream" Schrödinger's cat juju where Sumireko has to make a choice which of her physical manifestations is the real one, but can only make that choice whenever she goes to sleep.

It should ^ - ^, the lunar capital's entire dream was existing in the dream world's replica of the Moon, we know it had the same components (purity and what not) because Junko and Hecatia sent fairies (like clownpiece) to spread such impurity.

No, I'm talking about whether the real real moon, the physical moon, somehow existed in the Dream World. Since it seems that there was only a dream replica of the Moon inside the Dream World, and not the real real moon, I guess the answer to that is "no".

Now, because I am a reasonable man, I'm willing to make a compromise.

We can all accept that the physical universe in Touhou is infinite in the sense of being Low 2-C, right?

Right.

And if the Dream World is the "other side" of the physical universe, then we can agree that the Dream World is Low 2-C too, and until it firmly established that multiple Low 2-C "dreams" exist within the Dream World, it will remain Low 2-C.

As for Kaguya's "instant" manipulation, since the lowest and most conservative figure is always the safest bet, we will use the "femtosecond" figure for it. Since we don't have a confirmed range for that ability, however, we cannot use it to scale any sort of speed, and to do use it for scale would be calc stacking, which is not allowed here. Most unfortunate.

Tenshi's shaking of the heavens is at least 4-A, since her own heaven, Bhava-agra, contains multiple galaxies inside of it, and we can assume. Her threatening to destroy "heaven and earth" and "tame the land" damn all the "heretic gods" is, unfortunately, just lunatic howling from a madwoman and can't be taken seriously at all.

The statement of the Netherworld being bigger than Hell (which comes from an in-universe rumor on Yuyuko Saigyoji's profile in Perfect Memento in Strict Sense), if we assume that it is true, cannot be assumed to refer to Hell in it's collective entirety, because the Avici Hell is also said to be "infinite", and unless the Netherworld is of some higher infinity than Hell itself (and it has never been portrayed as such), it doesn't even make sense for it to be bigger than Hell in its totality. Avici is also clearly given some special "unique" status in the narrative, which also aids in its exemption from this comparison. This exclusion of Avici in otherworld size comparisons holds true for the statement that Heaven is larger than the Netherworld.

Even if we assumed that the Hell < Netherworld < Heaven size hierarchy holds at face value in their entireties, it would still only make Tenshi's feat High 3-A at best.

Touhou doesn't have any legitimate Low 2-C feats.

All in all, the high-tier 2hus become at least 4-A, possibly at most High 3-A, and their current MFTL+ speed is retained without upgrade or downgrade.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Calm down man. You are not the person calling the shots here. You do not determine what the stats are. Prom has already stated she would need to get someone to calc planck reactions, so this femtosecond stuff is irrelevant. Just because Doremy's authority is meaningless doesn't mean the recreations of locations and people in the dream world are 'less real', especially when we have other statements that disprove that.

You're starting to just go on tangents about how everyone is wrong and you're the only person who knows what the true stats are, while you continually refuse to post any scans to back up your point. Sooner or later, more and more people will stop taking you seriously.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I can sit here and say that Touhou stats are becoming whatever I want, just as you're doing. Except I've actually posted scans to help back up my point. But that'd be ridiculous, wouldn't it? Because I don't determine what does and doesn't get accepted here. Neither do you. I have no idea what kind of ego you have that makes you think you get to act like this, but it needs to stop. I am not the only one tired of dealing with stuff like this

On that note, Touhou is becoming High 1-A and has irrelevant speed. Do not ask me for scans. Thank you.