Some thoughts on the Harry Potter profiles

[LightMoonWizard]

I stand corrected, I see. The only thing I'll argue here, is that they're speaking of "undoing" the protection charms, which in my opinion could mean that they are unable to force their way through with offensive spells. It's also worth noting that it's implied in your last quote that there were multiple enchantments stacking around Hogwarts too.

Or more like because it's a hax than a physical force stuff. You see, most of protective enchantments are fidelius, disilusionment charm, intruder charm, anti apparition jinx, dark mark repelling spell(which bill modified and the death eaters has their dark marked people only barrier spell) that hides the location and it's visibility and automatic warning strangers, teleporation negation etc besides physical shields spells like protego. So when they get ride of all the other protection spells that conceal and alert them from attacks, they could just break through the physical shield that can be took down by firepower.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

Or more like because it's a hax than a physical force stuff. You see, most of protective enchantments are fidelius, disilusionment charm, intruder charm, anti apparition jinx, dark mark repelling spell(which bill modified and the death eaters has their dark marked people only barrier spell) that hides the location and it's visibility and automatic warning strangers, teleporation negation etc besides physical shields spells like protego. So when they get ride of all the other protection spells that conceal and alert them from attacks, they could just break through the physical shield that can be took down by firepower.

I've edited my reply to reflect my stance better, after reading through your arguments more thoroughly.

 

[LightMoonWizard]

I've edited my reply to reflect my stance better, after reading through your arguments more thoroughly.

And i forgot to write this in the earlier reply, but there is also the voldemorts name taboo which reveals the speakers location and breaks the protective enchantments around them. Only the fidelius charm and the place that is protected by it was powerful enough to negate the protection breaking effect but the locations general area(not the direct location) might've been still revealed.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

Yeah, we can possibly find the range of the spell, but we have no way of knowing how much energy, if any, it generates, as we don't know how it works.

I still stand by this, though.

 

[LightMoonWizard]

I still stand by this, though.

Honestly, rethinking about these protection spells and finding that most powerful one's are hax spells, it's meaningless to do the calc since they won't scale to ap anyways. But i still suspect there might have been a forcefield cause that's the most basic defensive spell(protego) and other sites all have the spell "protego horribilis"effect as a protective barrier and the fact that it's a part of the shield charm family that are all physical barrier beside protego dibaolica being a ring of fire.. Nonetheless I agree it's pointless to calc the feat as their isn't enough info.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

Honestly, rethinking about these protection spells and finding that most powerful one's are hax spells, it's meaningless to do the calc since they won't scale to ap anyways. But i still suspect there might have been a forcefield cause that's the most basic defensive spell(protego) and other sites all have the spell "protego horribilis"effect as a protective barrier and the fact that it's a part of the shield charm family that are all physical barrier beside protego dibaolica being a ring of fire.. Nonetheless I agree it's pointless to calc the feat as their isn't enough info.

Agreed.

 

[LightMoonWizard]

I knew that Voldemort’s knowledge of magic is perhaps more extensive than any wizard alive. I knew that even my most complex and powerful protective spells and charms were unlikely to be invincible if he ever returned to full power.

And even dumbledore who's the Goat of the verse admits his protective spells aren't gonna be good enough.

the water in the pool rose up and covered Voldemort like a cocoon ofmolten glass —For a few seconds Voldemort was visible only as a dark, rippling,faceless figure, shimmering and indistinct upon the plinth, clearlystruggling to throw off the suffocating mass —

Although his water orb spell was potent enough to prevent voldemort from brute forcing it out of it. Which also proves Albus is superior to voldemort in raw power atleast

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I mean wizards aren't as physically strong as their spells obviously.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

Here's an updated list of the feats I think would be most worth calcing, if you're still interested, Spino.

Lifting strength:
Dumbledore telekinetically moving the house tables

Attack potency:
Death Eaters shaking Hogwarts
Voldemort creating a shockwave
Rowle collapsing a ceiling
Hermione collapsing a floor

Durability:
A Death Eater getting hit by a brick wall

Speed:
Voldemort flying from Nurmengard to the English Channel #1
Voldemort flying from Nurmengard to the English Channel #2

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I will get to them in detail later this week hopefully, but a brief look so far:

Table moving: Doable, but I doubt moving some tables will yield high results for AP
Hogwarts shaking: I think I can tackle this despite my rustiness, but it might be a figure of speech
Voldemort shaking: I don't think we can infer much from the text other than that he sent 3 people flying, which is probably 9-C at best.
Ceiling crashing: You could assume the area of half a room's ceiling with an average thickness but could be a figure of speech as well, won't be higher than 9-B anyway
Floor crashing: Doable with some assumptions but probably 9-B at best
Brick wall: Seems like he just crashed into the expanding brick wall, considering car crashes are 9-C it would probably be similar
Voldemort flying: Is this to upgrade his speed or what?

Also regarding Dumbledore's fire feat, a long time ago I tried calculating on my own solely using the statement from the book that the island was as big as his office rather than using the movie scene, but I remember the results being extremely underwhelming.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

I will get to them in detail later this week hopefully, but a brief look so far:

Sounds great!

Table moving: Doable, but I doubt moving some tables will yield high results for AP

He casually moved four long tables, so it should be a somewhat impressive lifting strength feat, I think (I mean, if levitating a troll's club is class 5 this should at least be better than that).

Hogwarts shaking: I think I can tackle this despite my rustiness, but it might be a figure of speech

Great! I think we can assume that it is literal, as we see at least several corridors being shaken.

Voldemort shaking: I don't think we can infer much from the text other than that he sent 3 people flying, which is probably 9-C at best.

Yeah, you're probably right. I suppose we can't quantify "with the force of a bomb" either.

Ceiling crashing: You could assume the area of half a room's ceiling with an average thickness but could be a figure of speech as well, won't be higher than 9-B anyway
Floor crashing: Doable with some assumptions but probably 9-B at best

Yeah, they likely aren't great, but if we're going to seperate the book profiles, I'm not sure if the current justification for the students' attack potency will carry over.

Brick wall: Seems like he just crashed into the expanding brick wall, considering car crashes are 9-C it would probably be similar

Yeah, might not be too impressive.

Voldemort flying: Is this to upgrade his speed or what?

His flight speed, yes. I don't think it should scale to reactions.

Also regarding Dumbledore's fire feat, a long time ago I tried calculating on my own solely using the statement from the book that the island was as big as his office rather than using the movie scene, but I remember the results being extremely underwhelming.

Yeah, I think the best feat in the books probably is Wormtail (of all people) blowing up a street.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Harry Potter and the Rat that blew up a Street

vsbattles.fandom.com

Damn that reached Tier 8, for some reason I remembered it being 9-A only.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

Harry Potter and the Rat that blew up a Street

vsbattles.fandom.com

Damn that reached Tier 8, for some reason I remembered it being 9-A only.

It's funny how a wizard generally regarded as pathetic has the best feat in the series.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Death Eaters shake Hogwarts

vsbattles.fandom.com

Had a go at the castle shaking albeit with a fair amount of assumptions on Hogwarts' size.

 

[LightMoonWizard]

I mean wizards aren't as physically strong as their spells obviously.

Yeah, but voldemort couldn't use his magic to break the water orb, so he just apparates out of it.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Bit hard to do magic when you're being physically restrained by a cocoon of water, perhaps the mental strength for Disapparating is easier than a powerful spell. We have to consider the mental element of magical stuff in a lot of verses like Harry Potter or Star Wars.

 

[LightMoonWizard]

Maybe, but that didn't stop voldemort from doing transfiguration when was restrained by a fire rope.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Anyway what have we agreed on as the ratings for the Movie/Secondary Canon profiles? I presume the Fantastic Beast movies has better feats that remain.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

Death Eaters shake Hogwarts

vsbattles.fandom.com

Had a go at the castle shaking albeit with a fair amount of assumptions on Hogwarts' size.

Great job! We don't know how many death eaters contributed to this, though, but there are around 30 known death eaters in the books, so I suggest using that for a low-end, perhaps 15 for a middle and 1 (your calc) as a high-end.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

Anyway what have we agreed on as the ratings for the Movie/Secondary Canon profiles? I presume the Fantastic Beast movies has better feats that remain.

For the movie profiles, Voldemort taking down the shield around Hogwarts and feats from Fantastic Beasts should remain, I think.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Took some time to reread the whole thread through.

I would classify the storm calculations as Environmental Destruction whether for the Canon or Secondary Canon ratings, especially for the Dementor one as I can't see that being applicable to their combat magic at all. But anyway, I would appreciate it if someone copied the useful calculations for movie feats from the external links to their user blog on VS Battles Wiki so I can evaluate them.

The Mount Vesuvius eruption is canon to the books and is like several thousand times Hiroshima and Nagasaki or something like that so it would be an insanely powerful feat. However, I'm inclined to dismiss it considering the mechanics of how the eruption was brought about are vague and it seems to involve some sort of chain reaction triggered by causing the lava inside the volcano to dance, so I'm unsure how much can be credited to the wizard's magic itself.

I also don't really agree with the logic of using freak accident feats as their regular AP considering losing control and causing some insane damage seems to be a thing in the magical world.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

Add something like "The verse generally ranges from Wall level to Large Building level, though there have been instances of accidental or unconventional use of magic reaching [whatever tier Alderton's feat is] or even [whatever tier Innocenti's feat is]." to the Wizarding World verse page.

This would be my suggestion on how to handle these feats, but I'm also fine with dismissing them altogether.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

We don't know how many death eaters contributed to this, though, but there are around 30 known death eaters in the books, so I suggest using that for a low-end, perhaps 15 for a middle and 1 (your calc) as a high-end.

Anyway, what's your thoughts on this?

 

[LightMoonWizard]

Wait, so are the script,screenplay of fantastic beasts being included to the book profiles?

 

[LightMoonWizard]

Took some time to reread the whole thread through.

I would classify the storm calculations as Environmental Destruction whether for the Canon or Secondary Canon ratings, especially for the Dementor one as I can't see that being applicable to their combat magic at all. But anyway, I would appreciate it if someone copied the useful calculations for movie feats from the external links to their user blog on VS Battles Wiki so I can evaluate them.

The Mount Vesuvius eruption is canon to the books and is like several thousand times Hiroshima and Nagasaki or something like that so it would be an insanely powerful feat. However, I'm inclined to dismiss it considering the mechanics of how the eruption was brought about are vague and it seems to involve some sort of chain reaction triggered by causing the lava inside the volcano to dance, so I'm unsure how much can be credited to the wizard's magic itself.

I also don't really agree with the logic of using freak accident feats as their regular AP considering losing control and causing some insane damage seems to be a thing in the magical world.

The Pompeii feats caused by the dancing feet spells seems to make the Volcano itself to dance or get active rather than making the lava inside it to do so. So, i doubt it's a chain reaction but a instant burst.
And while i agree that storms caused by nagical creatures like dementors, thunderbird should be considered as ED due to them being not clear enough to be scaled to wizards in ap. But the storms caused by wizardkind(hm mc, hl keepers, duelers from books of spells) should scale to their ap cause thr pompeii feat stands to support it.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Wait, so are the script,screenplay of fantastic beasts being included to the book profiles?

Actually now that you bring it up I think the Fantastic Beasts movies probably have to be considered primary canon.

 

[LightMoonWizard]

Actually now that you bring it up I think the Fantastic Beasts movies probably have to be considered primary canon.

Don't think it should, cause while the script of fb1,fb2, and fb3 is written by rowling and is therefore tier 1 canon, the movies themselves are tier2.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

Don't think it should, cause while the script of fb1,fb2, and fb3 is written by rowling and is therefore tier 1 canon, the movies themselves are tier2.

If so, the top tiers would probably have to be lowered to just baseline Bulding level, as we can't use the calc for Grindelwald's fire, and the Dumbledore's fire calc is from the movies.

 

[LightMoonWizard]

If so, the top tiers would probably have to be lowered to just baseline Bulding level, as we can't use the calc for Grindelwald's fire, and the Dumbledore's fire calc is from the movies.

We still can use most of fantastic beasts feats as the screenplay and scripts are tier1 canon, but the dumbledore fire storn calc of the og series movies are indeed tier2 and should be separated for movie/tier2 canon if we do so.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

We still can use most of fantastic beasts feats as the screenplay and scripts are tier1 canon, but the dumbledore fire storn calc of the og series movies are indeed tier2 and should be separated for movie/tier2 canon if we do so.

Yes, but then we need to calc the Fantastic Beasts feats again, as the only calcs we've done there are from the movie versions.

 

[LightMoonWizard]

Yes, but then we need to calc the Fantastic Beasts feats again, as the only calcs we've done there are from the movie versions.

Yeah, beside dumbledore's london fog calc which is already using the literal size of london. Grindelwalds fire one the other hand is kinda tricky cause there isn't enough context besides

The cemetery is on the verge of destruction.

And credence's mountainside busting feat could also be upgrade to actual mountain busting feat according to the script and for the book profile only

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

Yeah, beside dumbledore's london fog calc which is already using the literal size of london.

I still don't think this is applicable to attack potency.

And credence's mountainside busting feat could also be upgrade to actual mountain busting feat according to the script and for the book profile only

Destroying a mountain doesn't necessarily mean pulverising the whole thing, but if he actually did destroy the whole mountain, it would either be an outlier or scale to nobody else, since he wasn't really using a spell, but his raw obscurus power.

 

[LightMoonWizard]

I still don't think this is applicable to attack potency.


Destroying a mountain doesn't necessarily mean pulverising the whole thing, but if he actually did destroy the whole mountain, it would either be an outlier or scale to nobody else, since he wasn't really using a spell, but his raw obscurus power.

Screenplays are meant to be written in detail, it would've said mountainside instead of just mountain. It would scale to top tiers or mid-high tiers since dumbledore could easily stop his attacks, which also makes the fog feat and the mirror world feat more believe to ap. Why would spell or not matter? And in the script of sod, his obscurus channeling attacks are called spells.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

Screenplays are meant to be written in detail, it would've said mountainside instead of just mountain.

The filmmakers interpreted it as destroying just the mountainside, and as far as I know, they worked closely with Rowling. I think it's ambiguous enough that we can't say either interpretation is more correct.

It would scale to top tiers or mid-high tiers since dumbledore could easily stop his attacks, which also makes the fog feat and the mirror world feat more believe to ap.

There was no indication that Credence used the same attack against Dumbledore; rather, I'd say the opposite was implied, as he only destroyed parts of buildings during that fight. That Dumbledore can block an attack doesn't mean that he can use the attack himself, either. On top of this, destroying a mountain would probably be a massive outlier.

Why would spell or not matter? And in the script of sod, his obscurus channeling attacks are called spells.

He is the only obscurial we see, and therefore his attacks, which are fueled by his obscurus, would not be available to anyone else.

 

[LightMoonWizard]

The filmmakers interpreted it as destroying just the mountainside, and as far as I know, they worked closely with Rowling. I think it's ambigious enough that we can't say either interpretation is more correct.

Fair enough

There was no indication that Credence used the same attack against Dumbledore; rather, I'd say the opposite was implied, as he only destroyed parts of buildings during that fight. That Dumbledore can block an attack doesn't mean that he can use the attack himself, either. On top of this, destroying a mountain would probably be a massive outlier.

He could be generating the same amount of power towards dumbledore when he sends a volley of explosive spells right before dumbledore disarms him. And the screenplay says this(mountain busting) is just his beginning which hints that he only gets more powerful. The breaking buildings and environment apart was using it to throw it at dumbledore. But he weathered away the volley of explosive spells, which means his magic was more powerful than credence's and which means his ap is higher than credence. Not when there are storm calc that reaches from small city to large islands.

He is the only obscurial we see, and therefore his attacks, which are fueled by his obscurus, would not be available to anyone else.

But he and his power interacts with albus which lets us scale him.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

He could be generating the same amount of power towards dumbledore when he sends a volley of explosive spells right before dumbledore disarms him. And the screenplay says this(mountain busting) is just his beginning which hints that he only gets more powerful. The breaking buildings and environment apart was using it to throw it at dumbledore. But he weathered away the volley of explosive spells, which means his magic was more powerful than credence's and which means his ap is higher than credence.

Just because the durability of his shields are higher than the attack potency of Credence's attacks, doesn't mean that Dumbledore's attack potency is higher than Credence's.

Not when there are storm calc that reaches from small city to large islands.

Aren't those feats performed by magical creatures? Then they would be environmental destruction not applicable to wizards' attack potency, or really to any other species' attack potency than the species performing the feat.

But he and his power interacts with albus which lets us scale him.

That is not how it works, as they are drawing their power from different sources; just because Dumbledore can defend himself from Credence's attacks, doesn't mean he can use the same attacks or attacks of similar power himself.

 

[LightMoonWizard]

Just because the durability of his shields are higher than the attack potency of Credence's attacks, doesn't mean that Dumbledore's attack potency is higher than Credence's.

But like i said before, spells should have similar power unless there are unique circumstances.

Aren't those feats performed by magical creatures? Then they would be environmental destruction not applicable to wizards' attack potency, or really to any other species' attack potency than the species performing the feat.

Book of spells wizards storm and cyclone are small city and city lvl. Hogwarts Mc blizzard feat is Island lvl and Hogwarts legacy Keepers storm feat is large island+.

That is not how it works, as they are drawing their power from different sources; just because Dumbledore can defend himself from Credence's attacks, doesn't mean he can use the same attacks or attacks of similar power himself.

Why would source of power matter at all? And ultimately it's the same source of power, "magic" just that credence's is a corrupted mass of darkness that is mostly focused in destructive style and has some unique abilities and drawbacks that comes with it.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

But like i said before, spells should have similar power unless there are unique circumstances.

I've already explained why I don't think this is the case.

Book of spells wizards storm and cyclone are small city and city lvl.

Why? We don't know anything about the size of those; they are incalculable, unless you use the size shown in the video game, which would give much smaller results.

Hogwarts Mc blizzard feat is Island lvl and Hogwarts legacy Keepers storm feat is large island+.

Hogwarts Mystery and Hogwarts Legacy aren't canon.

Why would source of power matter at all? And ultimately it's the same source of power, "magic" just that credence's is a corrupted mass of darkness that is mostly focused in destructive style and has some unique abilities and drawbacks that comes with it.

Exactly, Credence's obscurus is mostly focused on a destructive style. It would only make sense for it to be more powerful offensively.

I forgot to mention this in my last reply, but Credence destroying the mountain is likely incalculable because of this:

The filmmakers interpreted it as destroying just the mountainside, and as far as I know, they worked closely with Rowling. I think it's ambigious enough that we can't say either interpretation is more correct.

So it doesn't even really matter if it scales to anyone.

 

[LightMoonWizard]

I've already explained why I don't think this is the case.

Well this is the most reasonable way to scale their power imo

Why? We don't know anything about the size of those; they are incalculable, unless you use the size shown in the video game, which would give much smaller results.

Wonderbook: Book of Spells:​

A Wizard Calls Down A “Great Storm:”​

Considering we don't see how it gets created but that it's called a "great storm," strong instability CAPE for a standard storm would be our safest bet, which would translate to...

2.16E+16 J= 5.1625239005736140534 Megatons of TNT(Small City+ Level)

Another Wizard Blows It Away With A Cyclone:​

...Which blew away the storm, but took with it the judges, most of the crowd and many trees.

Assuming we use a standard storm...

Volume= 5421709348262.685 kg

Using the minimum speed of a F5 Tornado for this, as it's effects match what's told here the best...

Speed= 419 km/h

KE= 3.6722255678428E+16 J= 8.7768297510583177209 Megatons of TNT(City Hogwarts Mystery and Hogwarts Legacy aren't canon.

Hogwarts Mystery and Hogwarts Legacy aren't canon.

Exactly, Credence's obscurus is mostly focused on a destructive style. It would only make sense for it to be more powerful offensively.

Yeah but I just mentioned them cause they are also characters with storm feats

Having a style doesn't make them more superior in it. And the reason it's so aggressive is because it's activated and amped by the obscurials emotions(fear, anger). A wizard who doesn't have a obscurus but is powerful enough to stalemate it could choose to be aggressive/destructive or be defensive according to their style in combat.

The filmmakers interpreted it as destroying just the mountainside, and as far as I know, they worked closely with Rowling. I think it's ambigious enough that we can't say either interpretation is more correct.

But that just might be how the film makers interpreted for the film only and rowlings work could've fixed through out the making of the film without her full agreement. And there are quite few of details and contexts that are changed or left out of the film that are in the screenplay. Like newt using the environments around him to fight back against grindelwalds followers when they try to steal the baby qilin. So if we're really gonna do a strict book/tier1 canon profile. We shouldn't take any of the film side but the screenplay and Rowlings words about fantastic beasts.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

Well this is the most reasonable way to scale their power imo

Harry Potter is a Limited Energy System.

Wonderbook: Book of Spells:​

A Wizard Calls Down A “Great Storm:”​

Considering we don't see how it gets created but that it's called a "great storm," strong instability CAPE for a standard storm would be our safest bet, which would translate to...

2.16E+16 J= 5.1625239005736140534 Megatons of TNT(Small City+ Level)

It says that he caused a great storm cloud to descend from the sky. He moved a cloud down to surface level, which is not the same as creating a storm.

Another Wizard Blows It Away With A Cyclone:​

...Which blew away the storm, but took with it the judges, most of the crowd and many trees.

Assuming we use a standard storm...

Volume= 5421709348262.685 kg

Using the minimum speed of a F5 Tornado for this, as it's effects match what's told here the best...

Speed= 419 km/h

KE= 3.6722255678428E+16 J= 8.7768297510583177209 Megatons of TNT(City

This is wrong, as it uses the values from the last calc. The damage it did does not fit with this attack potency either.

Yeah but I just mentioned them cause they are also characters with storm feats

But they're non-canon characters doing it.

Having a style doesn't make them more superior in it. And the reason it's so aggressive is because it's activated and amped by the obscurials emotions(fear, anger). A wizard who doesn't have a obscurus but is powerful enough to stalemate it could choose to be aggressive/destructive or be defensive according to their style in combat.

Dumbledore outskilled Credence, so this showing says nothing about Dumbledore's attack potency. All we know is that he is able to block attacks from Credence. Credence's obscurus is also portrayed as exceptionally powerful, so it wouldn't be illogical for it to be more powerful offensively than Dumbledore.

But that just might be how the film makers interpreted for the film only and rowlings work could've fixed through out the making of the film without her full agreement. And there are quite few of details and contexts that are changed or left out of the film that are in the screenplay. Like newt using the environments around him to fight back against grindelwalds followers when they try to steal the baby qilin. So if we're really gonna do a strict book/tier1 canon profile. We shouldn't take any of the film side but the screenplay and Rowlings words about fantastic beasts.

Of course, it was more so to show that different interpretations were possible. On further thought, the screenplay says that Credence breaks apart the mountain, not that he destroys it. I think this is even more ambiguous.