Some Ideas For Potential Avatar Revisions

[PlozAlcachaz]

I mean, if you can't show or prove to me she was fully erased (as in, absolutely nothing remained of her) on a spiritual level then it isn't Mid-Godly regen, pretty simple as that. We have spirits who have High Regen based on regenerating from being reduced to microscopic specs and popping up in a completely different location after the fact.

Dargoo, it's pretty simple logic. She literally fades away with her light particles in the scene. She doesn't even regenerate in the same place from when she was killed, the indications are quite literally there. We even get the narrator opening the episode by telling us she was destroyed.

“After fusing with Vaatu, Unalaq became a Dark Avatar and ripped Korra and Raava apart! By destroying Raava, Unalaq and Vaatu transformed into the most powerful dark spirit that's ever lived.”

I don't particularly see why regenerating on a spiritual level for that profile, as you say, is being treated the same as physical regeneration.

I don't particularly care about the grammar argument, since forward slashes are also used to represent "and". Our page having a grammatical flub is secondary to what the intended meaning of the page is and expecting our explanations to follow formal grammar to the T is pedantic/nitpicky.

Except that's clearly not how it used there. The text you linked says "body and soul/mind”. That would be incredibly redundant to just have that as another and, or you would format it as "body, soul, and mind" (take your pick on if we go by the oxford comma or not).

Not really. You yourself said even said, and I quote, “The standards are extremely clear and I shouldn't have to explain them multiple times,”. If they're as clear as you say, then it'd be easy to discern that's how it's meant to be interpreted. You can't just decide to change your stance on the page to conveniently suit your argument.

Also, yes, that is a completely reasonable expectation. If the article somehow explained it wrong, then it led to this discussion. I'm pretty sure the site should be trying to not broadcast wrong descriptions of information to the hundreds of thousands of visitors it has.

That said. Decided to dredge up discussions on Mid-Godly to see what the precedent actually was on the matter.

Ant changed the page from using "and" to using a slash after SeraEX commented that it represented "or" on this thread. Interestingly enough basically no one other than Sera and Ant had discussion on the matter, even the OP most of the staff agreed to that said "and", and this interaction between Ant/Sera seemed to have gone largely ignored by or staff members. I'll make a thread about it once site-wide revisions are allowed. Until then I'll back off on that point.

Then that should be discussed. This Regen discussion should be put off otherwise until that gets decided.

Granted, none of this really matters since Ravaa's soul isn't entirely being EE'd as part of it always exists in Vaatu, so it wouldn't be Mid-Godly regardless. Or Low-Godly now that I think of it that way, since she's regenerating from a piece of herself in Vaatu.

That and it wasn't proven Raava is coming back from being fully erased rather than a small part of herself (although a small part of herself existing in Vaatu kind of kicks the supporting argument in the balls anyways) so I'll just double down on my take here. Raava wouldn't be able to regenerate from full spiritual destruction since "full spiritual destruction" would also be nuking the part of her that exists in Vaatu and vice versa. It's just a bread-and-butter Type 8 immortality case.

When was this stated to be the case at all? The way that Raava's own quote portrays it, she'd be regenerating inside of Vaatu after she gets destroyed by him. That's a pretty unwarranted assumption that there is always just a random part of Raava that's inside Vaatu. What you're arguing here is pretty much an extension of the same point. I'd like you to actually give evidence to what you're suggesting.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

For what it’s worth regarding the mid godly stuff, you guys can refer to what I said before.

Giant Spirit Korra couldn’t find a trace of Raava within UnaVaatu and wasn’t revealed until Jinora used her spirit powers to reveal Raava.

But IDK if that meant Raava didn’t have a trace of her left until Jinora sped up her revival or if it meant Raava immediately regen’d but her presence couldn’t be found without external help.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Also, yes, that is a completely reasonable expectation. If the article somehow explained it wrong, then it led to this discussion. I'm pretty sure the site should be trying to not broadcast wrong descriptions of information to the hundreds of thousands of visitors it has.

Please. We're not writing for people trying to dissect our pages for correct formal grammar, that comes second to what was actually agreed on when updating/writing our pages. You can proofread our pages, I don't see issues with that, but actually arguing these errors to make changes to verses is just silly and is something I'm not willing to entertain.

Already explained that there doesn't seem to be a consensus on the meaning there regardless, so moving on.

Dargoo, it's pretty simple logic. She literally fades away with her light particles in the scene. She doesn't even regenerate in the same place from when she was killed, the indications are quite literally there. We even get the narrator opening the episode by telling us she was destroyed.

Which doesn't prove she was fully erased from spiritual existence (being EE'd), cool. What does her regenerating in a different place have to do with anything besides the mechanic of her clearly sub-Mid-Godly regen?

When was this stated to be the case at all? The way that Raava's own quote portrays it, she'd be regenerating inside of Vaatu after she gets destroyed by him. That's a pretty unwarranted assumption that there is always just a random part of Raava that's inside Vaatu. What you're arguing here is pretty much an extension of the same point. I'd like you to actually give evidence to what you're suggesting.

Vaatu has some of Raava's light in him and vice verse, which is what they regenerate from, something that was stated rather clearly. Part of Raava exists in Vaatu. This is what Jinora directs Korra to pull out of UnaVaatu and is basically the main premise for the conclusion of that arc. Not sure why this is hard to understand.

It's the same evidence @ProfessorKukui4Life already provided above, just scroll up.

But yeah, this wouldn't qualify for Low-Godly either and would probably be some level of High regen that operates on Type 8 Immortality based on how it's described.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Im fine with it not being Mid-Godly, but why wouldnt it be Low-Godly?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Im fine with it not being Mid-Godly, but why wouldnt it be Low-Godly?

If they're regenerating from an existing piece of themselves in the other, that wouldn't be Low-Godly. And we don't really grant Spirits Low-Godly regen by default because they lack a physical body otherwise, the precedent is to rate their regen based on their spiritual body and how much damage from a NPI user they could take and regenerate from.

To put it in terms of a biological regenerator, it'd be like regenerating from a cell of yours in another person's body when your main body is killed - it's not that you can regenerate from every cell of yours being eradicated since you're still regenerating from a single cell.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I can see where your coming from, but the problems with that though is that there doesnt seem to be anything that implies Vaatu gets a piece of Raava immediately after she dies, or vice versa when Vaatu dies. Remember, Korra couldnt find a trace of Raava within UnaVaatu during their final battle, and that happened a little while after Unalaq destroyed Raava.

For the general point on Low-Godly, would that be saying that spirits in general are kinda banned from having Low-Godly without additional context? Because that sounds like something we should have a general thread to discuss.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I can see where your coming from, but the problems with that though is that there doesnt seem to be anything that implies Vaatu gets a piece of Raava immediately after she dies, or vice versa when Vaatu dies. Remember, Korra couldnt find a trace of Raava within UnaVaatu during their final battle, and that happened a little while after Unalaq destroyed Raava.

Based on Raava's exposition I thought that it was clear that there's always some piece of them in the other, and I don't think Korra being unable to detect it contradicts this conclusion because Jinora could locate it; it was probably so miniscule because well, Raava was yeeted like a few episodes earlier and they were essentially jumpstarting the process.

For the general point on Low-Godly, would that be saying that spirits in general are kinda banned from having Low-Godly without additional context? Because that sounds like something we should have a general thread to discuss.

I do think there should be further discussion on this because yes, with how we currently treat it non-physical beings can't really have Low-Godly regen and kind of just jumps from High to Mid-Godly. I don't think any of our staff would want to give every nonphysical/spiritual being Low-Godly regeneration by defacto for sure.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Based on Raava's exposition I thought that it was clear that there's always some piece of them in the other, and I don't think Korra being unable to detect it contradicts this conclusion because Jinora could locate it; it was probably so miniscule because well, Raava was yeeted like a few episodes earlier and they were essentially jumpstarting the process.

Oh no your right about that, that a piece of one does go into the other when they die. What I was saying is that the pieces they re-grow from dont seem to be immediately present within the other after one dies. As in, Raava dies, and doesnt have a piece of her inside Vaatu to grow from until some amount of unquantifiable time passes.

That said, I can see definitely see the argument for Korra not sensing Raava =/= Raava isnt present in Vaatu though. Thats debatable at the very least.

I do think there should be further discussion on this because yes, with how we currently treat it non-physical beings can't really have Low-Godly regen and kind of just jumps from High to Mid-Godly. I don't think any of our staff would want to give every nonphysical/spiritual being Low-Godly regeneration by defacto for sure.

Gotcha. I can see the points from both sides, but I definitely agree there should be a thread about this to address the relationship between spiritual beings and Regen. This isnt the first time i've had this discussion either coming from personal experience.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

bump?

 

[Zezu1995]

guys i think we should listen to seths new vid on avatar verse, he touches alot of topics like "landmass" in the novel literally means contintent if you google it. also i didnt know there was "LOST SCROLLS" text which goes in depth about the coi fishes

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Oh, I forgot to reply to this thread even, my bad.

Please. We're not writing for people trying to dissect our pages for correct formal grammar, that comes second to what was actually agreed on when updating/writing our pages. You can proofread our pages, I don't see issues with that, but actually arguing these errors to make changes to verses is just silly and is something I'm not willing to entertain.

It's not even a matter of dissecting, it's just the fact that's how it's interpreted. I only broke it down because you kept misusing the forward-slash and didn't understand how I got that understanding. If it's such an issue, again, please make a thread on it. I cannot help if you are not willing to participate in a genuine discussion, that's not my bad though.

Which doesn't prove she was fully erased from spiritual existence (being EE'd), cool. What does her regenerating in a different place have to do with anything besides the mechanic of her clearly sub-Mid-Godly regen?

Damn, I didn't know literally having your body destroyed to the point we see absolutely nothing visible left of you, and the show having the narrator state it like multiple times was not proof her essence was clearly not there anymore. It shows that none of her light was in the area anymore and that she had to regenerate dependently on her connection to Vaatu because of that. Idk how you interpret all of that as somehow the show treating it as Raava's forme not somehow being completely gone.

Vaatu has some of Raava's light in him and vice verse, which is what they regenerate from, something that was stated rather clearly. Part of Raava exists in Vaatu. This is what Jinora directs Korra to pull out of UnaVaatu and is basically the main premise for the conclusion of that arc. Not sure why this is hard to understand.

It's the same evidence ProfessorKukui4Life already provided above, just scroll up.

But yeah, this wouldn't qualify for Low-Godly either and would probably be some level of High regen that operates on Type 8 Immortality based on how it's described.

Nothing about the quote that was posted even says that at all. I can pull up the entire transcript sequence here for context.

Wan: That's what they said about living in the Spirit Wilds, and I survived that. I'm ready. Give me the air. [Shouts as Raava passes through his body. After he regains his composure, he sends out a burst of air.] It feels completely different. If you and Vaatu have the same fight every ten thousand years, why hasn't one of you destroyed the other? [Continues practicing his airbending.]

Raava: He cannot destroy light any more than I can destroy darkness. One cannot exist without the other. Even if I defeat Vaatu in this encounter, darkness will grow inside me until he emerges again. The same will hold true if Vaatu defeats me.

Wan: That doesn't sound so bad. Even if Vaatu wins, you'll come back.

Raava: Yes, but you will probably not survive to see it. Vaatu will destroy the world as you know it. Darkness will cover the Earth for ten thousand years.

I see absolutely nothing that says, "Oh yeah, he has a piece of me inside him and so do I of him!" All she says if she destroys Vaatu, then darkness would grow inside her until he is reborn. That would just imply that the darkness would grow inside her after she defeats him. The idea there's just a constant piece of both inside one another is an unsupported headcanon. Jinora revealing that Raava was inside of UnaVaatu doesn't directly prove that either. This was, again, AFTER Vaatu initially destroys Raava. So yes, she would begin to regenerate inside of Vaatu afterward.

Let's say we even went with your suggestion, it would not even change a thing. All it would ever alter is the specific mechanics of her reliance. She would be regenerating from the thing she was reliant on inside of Vaatu, which she becomes immediately separated from afterward when she leaves Vaatu's body. It would not be a true part of her body, but this idea is pretty absurd, to begin with, considering how Korra ripped it out of Vaatu. If we went by this idea, would Raava not permanently die the next time she loses to Vaatu because that piece is gone? There are way too many plot holes that would come with such an interpretation, this was just giving a charitable take on the matter.

It absolutely would be Mid-Godly.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

guys i think we should listen to seths new vid on avatar verse, he touches alot of topics like "landmass" in the novel literally means contintent if you google it. also i didnt know there was "LOST SCROLLS" text which goes in depth about the coi fishes

It doesn't really add anything aside from maybe a continental feat, but I think the island interpretation is still probably better as he said.

 

[Zezu1995]

i guess island would be consistent with what we already got

 

[Zezu1995]

guys wouldnt reeva and vaatu be higher due to the spirit world mimicing the real world in size?

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

guys wouldnt reeva and vaatu be higher due to the spirit world mimicing the real world in size?

Vaatu and Raava are explicitly stated to be more powerful in the Spirit World.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Well there is still the statement made by Raava that Vaatu couldve potentially made the worlds cease to exist.

Which may or may not be worth at least a “likely higher” rating for them.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Mega bump

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Bump

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

So what's left to discuss?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

We still need to give Korra, Unalaq, Raava and Vaatu the High 6-A upgrades and put the established notes on Korra and the other avatars pages.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

We still need to give Korra, Unalaq, Raava and Vaatu the High 6-A upgrades and put the established notes on Korra and the other avatars pages.

I thought it was only agreed they were 6-C physically but High 6-A with ED?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I thought it was only agreed they were 6-C physically but High 6-A with ED?

Oh we did? It was so long ago that I don’t remember completely.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

It was part of the compromise since Qaw was going to make a thread about ocean feats. I'm not sure if we can apply this or not. I think some mods agreed with some of the material while others came on, disagreed with like one aspect and left. This has been a weird discussion.

EDIT: I had a side thought that Lightning Redirection probably doubles as Attack Reflection too.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Bump

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

EDIT: I had a side thought that Lightning Redirection probably doubles as Attack Reflection too.

Should be listed as limited Attack Reflection, but I agree.

 

[Zezu1995]

firebenders also need lightning resistance/immunity same with avatars that can reflect... ,mako resisted being electrucuted by a machince and sent the lightning back plus high heat resistance for firebenders since iroh could take a real lightning bolts heat (you see the smoke around him after) and he takes like no damage from that

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Zuko nearly died to being hit by a lightning bolt without re-directing it, the same with his Uncle. The reason people like Iroh and co. survive the lightning via reflecting is that they channel it through a safe part of their chi to re-direct it. Iroh explains this:

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Oh yeah quick thing I wanted to bring up. It might be a reach, but would it be possible to scale Raava, Vaatu, Unalaq and Korra to the speed of Harmonic Convergence's energy?

When it started, Harmonic Convergence was able to quickly envelop the Avatar earth in a matter of seconds, which could be a very impressive speed upgrade for these 4.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Oh yeah quick thing I wanted to bring up. It might be a reach, but would it be possible to scale Raava, Vaatu, Unalaq and Korra to the speed of Harmonic Convergence's energy?

When it started, Harmonic Convergence was able to quickly envelop the Avatar earth in a matter of seconds, which could be a very impressive speed upgrade for these 4.

Maybe Attack Speed-wise?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Isn't Harmonic Convergence a naturally occurring event? I'm iffy about scaling anyone from that directly.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah but the amplified spiritual energy that’s created from HM seems relative to Raava and Vaatu.

Plus, UnaVaatu can travel halfway around the world from the south pole to Republic City in seconds. And he was able to react to Giant Spirit Korra moving at the same speeds.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, but I still find it a bit similar to characters who are empowered via sunlight.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Fair. I think i'll take that to its own thread later on so we can focus on the stuff here.

Anyway, Ploz seems to be gone from the site now, and left the revisions for me to take care of.

 

[BlackeJan]

Hey so has anyone’s read the comics for ATLA? Cause I’ve found 2 cool feats

 

[Zezu1995]

i read them, im guessing one is the sleep bending aang feat? where he destroys the mountain?

 

[BlackeJan]

I dont remember that one since im on the last book, but it was the feat that Aang did in his avatar state in The Promise and Top has a crazy reaction feat in The Imbalance

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I dont remember that one since im on the last book, but it was the feat that Aang did in his avatar state in The Promise and Top has a crazy reaction feat in The Imbalance

Wasn't the feat Aang did in the promise calced already? Maybe it wasn't and I'm wrong about it

 

[Zezu1995]

oh you mean the split around the kingdom? http://prntscr.com/xm4ys9
heres sleep bending http://prntscr.com/xm4xix
as for toph her holding up the mine is nothing seeing that she held up the library http://prntscr.com/xm500d

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

oh you mean the split around the kingdom? http://prntscr.com/xm4ys9
heres sleep bending http://prntscr.com/xm4xix
as for toph her holding up the mine is nothing seeing that she held up the library http://prntscr.com/xm500d

1. Yes. Wasn't this calced already? If not then it should be

2. Not sure if that can even be calced

3. Toph has several Class M feats with Earthbending so it's consistent for her to hold the mine with Earthbending

 

[Zezu1995]

1- ya it got calc to city+ iirc
2- looks maybe city or mountain tier to me lol not surprised seeing its an avatar