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Some Ideas For Potential Avatar Revisions

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I'm not going to make a Content Revision Thread on the topic yet, but I wanted to get some opinions on some things I want to propose for revisions. Recently, I've been watching both the Avatar and Korra series. It seems the profiles are somewhat outdated and some ideas of abilities have been thrown around without ever gaining any real traction. Well, while I'm not super into the wiki and all, I still do want to help with the profiles if I can. Anyway, here are some of my ideas.

I have a plan to split some of the characters into different keys for seasons as well as what we do for some Anime characters.

Additions to All of the Avatars:

I'm going to just talk about these two together considering a lot of what I want to propose just goes hand-in-hand for Avatar State stuff. One thing I want to note as well is that some of the abilities I propose for Aang when it comes to innate abilities, should apply over to Korra as well, but only through the Avatar State as that's where she has full access to those abilities.

Firstly, I think Light Manipulation should be something we add to all profiles of the Avatar. The Avatar State has them glowing with their eyes and other parts of their bodies with light. It's also something that should stem from Raava, who is literally the spirit, light embodiment herself. Of course, Raava needs Light Manipulation added to her profile as well. I have no idea why that wasn't something already there.

While we're at it, shouldn't all of the Avatars have 6-A Environmental Destruction in their Avatar States as well? It's something we note Raava should scale to already, but we don't have it on the Avatar profiles for some reason. Avatar State Korra and the others should scale to it if we're counting it for Dark Avatar Unalaq. The whole point of the Avatar State as well is that it's combining the energies of whoever is the Avatar and Raava into one (same thing with the Dark Avatar), so they should have the complete access to do something like that.

Also, I believe that all of the Avatars should get some sort of Reality Warping in the Spirit World. Iroh states that Korra's emotions were altering the Spirit World. Her emotions were able to generate a thunderstorm and made people start fighting with one another when she was upset. She undid all of this when she was positive afterward. There was another time that when Korra had entered the Spirit World with Zaheer to free Jinora and the other people being incased in the vines, Raava corrected Korra by saying that was where they were at their greatest power because of the spiritual energy they can manipulate and shape. I'm pretty sure this would apply to all of the other Avatars too considering this stems majorly from the connection to Raava. They could also get a note of “higher in the Spirit World” going by Raava’s dialogue.

Something so blatantly not listed on the profiles is that they have Immortality Type 4. Pretty self-explanatory as whenever an Avatar dies, they are reborn as a new individual. That's how we even have the "Avatar cycle".

All of the Avatars should likely have Magma Manipulation too. There is an Avatar named Szeto that was capable of manipulating the magma within volcanoes. Kyoshi's island feat also involves her rising up magma as well. The Avatar State is explicitly stated to combine the knowledge and skills of their past lives. I guess Korra would technically lose this though considering Unalaq destroyed the connection to her past lives when he killed Raava originally, though. She could probably just have a note of it being a former ability of hers though. This would at least apply to Yangchen, Kuruk, Kyoshi, Roku, Aang, and Korra.

All of the Avatars should get Sealing in the Avatar State as well. If all of the Avatars have the skills and knowledge of past Avatars, then they most definitely scale to the fact that Wan sealed Vaatu in the Tree of Time for ten thousand years. There is also a distinct point where Wan decided to seal the portals between the Spirit World and the Material World to stop travel as well. Sealing is pretty backed up.

All of the Avatars + Unalaq should have Energy Absorption added to their profiles as well (I think this can just be base in general honestly). Korra, Wan, and Unalaq all have demonstrated that they could absorb energy from the spirit portals during Harmonic Convergence to make their fusions with Raava or Vaatu permanent.

I'm not sure if this would give a tiering increase, but there was a thread that brought up how Avatar Kuruk managed to completely sink an island with the Avatar State. At worst, I think it would be good additional reasoning that could be added for their Attack Potency.

There are two threads that explain pretty well on why the Avatars (and likely most of the verse in general) should get Non-Physical Interaction for interacting with spirits. I agree with this, so I will just like them here as it's somewhat redundant to explain something already well-explained.

Korra and Unalaq should have Purification, and the other Avatars, along with Raava, should have it as well. Korra and Unalaq are self-explanatory considering the whole "Spiritbending" thing they do with the water purges the corruption influence on spirits. As for Raava and the others, I'm pretty sure she has freed dark spirits from Vaatu's influence in the past. It's also the fact that with Vaatu and Raava being opposites... If Vaatu just naturally has Corruption, it would only make sense that Raava has Purification for their dynamic in turn. This applies to the Avatar State considering that's the form using Raava's power, to begin with.

This one is just for Aang and Korra. Energybending should be more than just Energy Manipulation. It qualifies as Power Nullification considering it can take away bending (as Aang did to Yakone and Ozai). It also should likely be some sort of Power Bestowal because Aang used it to give Korra her bending back, and Korra used Energybending to give Lin her bending back. The Lion Turtles used Energybending to give different types of Bending, to begin with.

The Avatar State should likely give Soul Manipulation as well. It should have similar capabilities to Unalaq's Dark Avatar State, which was able to rip Raava from Korra's spirit. Additionally, Aang seems to do Energybending at the spiritual level from the Lion Turtle's dialogue.

All of the Avatars should get Summoning too. They are able to summon their past lives for guidance and to act in place of them. This is pretty self-explanatory.

The Avatar State should also give the Statistics Amplification considering it boosts the Avatar physically and their usage of the elements.

Kyoshi:

Kyoshi's page honestly is really horrible. It's just a copy and paste from Aang's page, in which multiple abilities are obviously wrong such as Metalbending (Metalbending didn't even exist until Toph did it).

As for what needs to be removed...
- Metalbending: It didn't even exist when she was around because it came during Aang's time. Even if Korra was able to learn it, Avatar State Kyoshi wouldn't have it regardless because Korra is a later Avatar.
- Lightning Redirection: It's the same problem with Metalbending as Iroh invented it during Aang's time. It doesn't apply to Kyoshi.
- Energybending: This is something that Aang and Korra knew. There are absolutely no implications that any of the past Avatars were capable of it.

I guess one cool thing Kyoshi could have added is that she technically could gain Immortality because she knows the secret to it.

She also has access to Glass Manipulation too.

Roku:

Roku's page has the exact same problem as Kyoshi's. The same abilities need to be removed from his page as Kyoshi's.

Aang:

I'm pretty sure Aang should have Metalbending removed from his profile as well. While I am for upgrades, I don't support having wrongful information on the profiles. I don't think it's ever implied at any point that Aang learned Metalbending from Toph. That seems more like a headcanon if anything.

I think the "Divine Union" on Aang's profile could probably just be changed to Fusionism or something of the sort if it's what I'm thinking it is. On the topic though, I do think Aang should get a new key when he's merged with La. As to what this key would be called, it would probably be "Koi-Zilla" or "Merged with the Ocean Spirit". Koi-Zilla isn't just a fan name as the Avatar Wiki says the creators coined the name (going by the Avatar Extras), but the latter option sounds more professional in my opinion. Anyway, I feel this form should be given the tiering "At least 7-C, likely High 6-A". The "At least 7-C" would represent the fact it's more powerful than Aang's Kid Avatar State considering the fusion. The "High 6-A" is probably is what is confusing you all. I would say it's plausible for a few reasons. Firstly, when Zhao killed the Moon Spirit, the moon itself was actually affected as it was vanquished. This would seem to imply that despite giving up their spiritual forms, the fish still do have control over what they represent. La represents the oceans, of course. Secondly, the Avatar Extras pretty much imply this too.

Examples from the Extras:
- "This spirit monster is literally the wrath of the ocean in physical form."
- "This indicates the combining of the Spirit of the Avatar with the Spirit of the Ocean."
- "Aang combined powers with the Ocean Spirit to become an all powerful water monster."
- "The koi fish spirit monster is made entirely of light and water."

I don't think there are many other abilities granted by this key other than Large Size (Type 2; Is this big), Enhanced Water Manipulation, and Elemental Intangibility because the Avatar Extras label it as being made entirely of light and water. Either way, the form should definitely exist on the profile in some form. If the tiering is a hard pill to swallow, just remember that literally, nobody scales to the form at all. It was powerful enough to where the Waterbenders just stopped fighting altogether and started praying to it too.

Similarly, Aang needs a Sozin's Comet key. Ozai's profile notes that he's able to match Aang's Firebending during Sozin's Comet with a calc linked on the profile, yet it's not even on Aang's own profile. The comet should enhance his Firebending too, so it's a different key that should have him as being High 8-C with the other elements and 8-B with Firebending. Additionally, he would have a key for Enhanced Fire Manipulation and Empowerment with his previous abilities.

He should get Type 4 Underwater Breathing as he can create a pocket of air to breathe in.

He should gain Extrasensory Perception as he can see spirits when others could not.

Aang should have Weather Manipulation added considering he can form clouds through Airbending.

Aang should also have a note on how he can summon Appa and other animals through his whistle aside from just his past lives through Raava.

Korra:

Korra needs to lose her Seismic Sense as well. Not exactly lose it, but it's something she should only be able to use in her Avatar State (even then, it would just be a former ability like the Magma Manipulation as well). Aang learned it from Toph, so it's fine to keep around for those reasons. Korra's profile should be divided hax-wise for her Avatar State regardless. Seismic Sense should just be listed as Enhanced Senses. I'm assuming her "Seismic Sense" came from Korra being able to sense where people were. However, I'm pretty sure that just came from spiritual energy rather than physical presence. It could be some sort of Limited Clairvoyance we could add instead maybe?

Something I think we should make a permanent note of is that Korra needs to have a "Former Abilities" key in her Avatar State. Some of the abilities she will gain from these additions are rendered somewhat moot in the Avatar State Post-Vatuu Fight. I think she could likely retain a Resistance to Blood Manipulation but that's it.

Korra could probably gain a Limited Resistance to Poison Manipulation too. Yes, I am aware she ultimately succumbed to its effects, but she was able to fight off its effects for a prolonged period of time (some of that time she was even focused on fending off Zaheer too). Zaheer made some remarks about how it was impressive she held off the effects when she visited him in prison.

She should also gain Type 4 Underwater Breathing. The reasoning for this stems from how she used her Waterbending to formulate an air pocket around her and Mako to reach Air Temple Island.

Zuko:

He should get Weapon Creation because he can make flame daggers from his Firebending energy to match Azula's.

Also, he would get Flight because he can use fire jets to propel himself in the air with Earth King Kuei in the comics.

Azula:

Her page is fine, though I think she should have Social Influencing added. She has multiple instances of this, but the one that comes to mind is she pretty much got the Dai Li on her side without much difficulty despite their treacherous loyalty to Long Feng. One of the Agents even remarks just how scarily charismatic she was as well.

She should also get Acrobatics for the fact she was able to do multiple flips and parkour off of the environment to avoid Team Avatar's attacks. Aang even notes she's even more agile than him because of this.

It should also be noted that Azula learned how to do Lightning Redirection going by the events of Smoke and Shadow.

She should get Weapon Creation because she can make flame daggers from her Firebending energy to match Zuko's.

Asami:

Yes, even a Non-Bender appears in a list about Bender upgrades. She's missing some stuff on her profile that's notable.

Firstly, she should have Vehicular Mastery for fairly obvious reasons. She pretty much helped spearhead and test many cars, planes, etc. for her company. This led to her developing pretty good motor skills because of this.

She should gain Electricity Manipulation through the usage of the Equalist Glove.

Considering she has her own tech company, she has a lot of things from it. This would allow her to have Preparation for a more readied arsenal. A full list of the stuff she produces notably is listed here. She could get Flight through her planes, Natural Weaponry through the Mecha Tank's naturally sharp claws, Fire Manipulation through their flamethrowers, and Magnetism Manipulation through their magnets. She could also get a High 8-C rating for prep because the Mecha Tanks were meant to fight off Benders.

Also, for some reason, the profile fails to list Genius Intelligence despite her Intelligence being listed as such.

Mako:

Not much for him other than Flight via the fact he can use fire jets.

Oh, he also has Lightning Redirection too.

Azula, Ozai, Aang, Iroh, Zuko, Jeong Jeong, etc.:

This is specifically for some Firebenders, but they should all get a different key for Sozin's Comet to note Empowerment and Enhanced Fire Manipulation like Aang's profile will.

Iroh, Azula, Ozai, Mako, etc.:

This goes for Lightningbenders specifically. They could possibly get Durability Negation considering Azula used her lightning precisely enough to one-shot Aang in the Avatar State.

Iroh, Zuko, Aang, Mako, and Azula:

They should all be able to get a Limited Absorption considering how Lightning Redirection works. Basically, you absorb the lightning into your body, then you expel it elsewhere. It would be limited as it's only for electricity-based attacks.

Vaatu and Raava:

I'm pretty sure they should have Mid-Godly rather than Low-Godly. Going by the definition of Low-Godly, "The ability to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of the user's body, instead restoring it from their disembodied consciousness, whether that be their soul, mind, some other nonphysical aspect of themself, esoteric or metaphysical energy, or something else." This doesn't really fit their case. Vaatu and Raava are already purely spiritual entities, not physical. So whenever one of them is destroyed, they're being destroyed on a spiritual level. It's much more akin to Mid-Godly's description, which is, "The ability to regenerate even after the complete destruction of the body and soul/mind.". So yeah, Mid-Godly Vaatu and Raava instead.

Considering they are literal spirits, they should have Non-Corporeality too.

Firebenders (Universally Applicable):

I'm pretty sure that they should just have Heat Manipulation in general. Zuko has shown that he can apply his Firebending to heat himself up after swimming in freezing water and heating up the environment around him. There are instances for this with other characters too.

They should be able to get Explosion Manipulation too because they can pretty much cause explosions through Firebending. This really becomes more exemplified through Combustionbenders that have the greatest proficiency of this but obviously not every Firebender is a Combustionbender. Nonetheless, they should still get this.

All Firebenders should be able to gain a Resistance to extreme heats. Firebending staff and such aren't really bothered by the fact they are on a volcanic island in the middle of a boiling lake at the Boiling Rock.

They should get Barrier Creation/Forcefield Creation as they can create walls of flames to protect themselves from attacks.

Firebending also has a particularly cool usage that allows it to have Clairvoyance. In Korra, there was a salesman who used Firebending to show that the reason why Korra had suffered from memory loss was that she was attacked by a dark spirit. Firebending can be used to read and interpret chis, in general.

Waterbenders (Universally Applicable):

I'm not sure why this is the case, but Waterbender pages seem to be missing Ice Manipulation from them. This seems pretty self-explanatory considering how many times Waterbenders actively turn their water into ice and use said ice for attacks (they can also levitate it and such). Even fodder soldiers of the Southern and Northern Water Tribes were able to do it in Korra from what I remember. One of the Nickelodeon Flash sites about the Avatar Universe seems to suggest this as well (screenshot since Flash will be going dead in December 2020).

They should all get Empowerment considering their abilities are amplified to their peak during a full moon.

They should get Type 4 Underwater Breathing. From what I can remember, Katara used her Waterbending to form a pocket of air by making sure the water around the group wouldn't come crashing down. There is also another instance of this where Korra formed one around her and Mako so that they could reach Air Temple Island.

Pretty much all of them should gain Resistance to cold temperatures. The very climate that the Northern and Southern Water Tribes live in are some of the coldest places on the planet (the North and South poles respectively).

Waterbenders should all be able to get Steam Manipulation as there are many instances of this throughout the series. For example, Katara was able to use her Waterbending to generate fog. She also did it to surround two ships.

Waterbenders should also gain Resistance to Ice Manipulation as while Azula was completely frozen in the ice Katara froze Azula and herself in, she was able to exhale and use her Waterbending to move freely in the ice.

Waterbenders should get Plant Manipulation as Hama has shown they can control plants through the water in them.

Like the Airbenders, the Waterbenders are able to make clouds through Waterbending. This would give them Weather Manipulation too.

Airbenders (Universally Applicable):

This one is pretty minor, but Airbenders should get resistance to cold temperatures. Tenzin stated that Airbenders are able to easily regulate their temperatures in order to not feel cold in cold climates.

They like should get Type 4 Underwater Breathing through Aang's usage of making air pockets underwater. This is something other Airbenders have shown to replicate on land, so they should be fine to have it for the water as well.

*Another one of the features that Airbenders have in abundance is Astral Projection and Dimensional Travel (the Spirit World is a different dimension entirely). Aside from just Aang, others such as Jinora and Zaheer have shown their capabilities of doing it as well. This is largely stemming from the fact that the Air Nation tends to have more spiritual ties than the other nations.

This is pretty simple, but all Airbenders are capable of Flight. It's not exactly unassisted (unless you're Guru Laghima or Zaheer), but they can do so with air scooters, a staff, or the wingsuits made by Asami.

They should likely get Extrasensory Perception given their more innate spiritual connection, along with how Aang has it.

They should all get Sound Manipulation considering Airbenders can create soundwaves through their Airbending.

One of the extensions of Airbending is Weather Manipulation as Aang has shown when he formed clouds around him.

Pretty self-explanatory because there are many instances throughout the series where Airbenders create shields of air for Forcefield Creation.

Very similar to Earthbenders, Airbenders also have Enhanced Senses. They are able to feel the air currents shift in the air and anticipate things because of this. This is most proficient for those with balded heads as Daw was able to sense a net coming and evaded it.

Earthbenders (Universally Applicable):

Earthbenders are capable of using Magnetism Manipulation as the Dai Li Agents used it to magnetize themselves to a wall.

Sand Manipulation is another extension of Earthbending as seen with the Sandbenders (Korra did it with ease so it should be pretty easy to replicate).

Vibration Manipulation is another notable extension considering how pretty much any Earthbender can use it to create localized fissures/earthquakes.

All Benders:

Literally, all Benders should just have outright Chi Manipulation. In order to manipulate the elements in the first place, you have to focus your chi, to begin with.

Legend of Korra Cast Scaling:

Some of the scaling for Season 1 and 2 characters is all over the place weirdly. Korra, Bolin, and Mako are all scaled to Building+/8-C for no reason while villains like Unalaq and Amon have straight-up High 8-C ratings. The reason for Building+ is just that Mako can use lightning, which isn't a good reason honestly. I don't see why they aren't just flat out High 8-C in Seasons 1 and 2 as well. If we're comparing the rest of the cast to Korra, Korra has shown to hurt both Amon and Unalaq in combat. Unalaq scaling to High 8-C isn't really wrong either if he's comparable to other Red Lotus members. The Red Lotus members were capable of taking on Tenzin, Zuko, and Tonraq, so they already have pretty clear scaling to High 8-C. Amon is fine to stay at High 8-C as well considering he's stronger than Yakone. Korra's basically mastered all of the elements aside from air at the start of Season 1 as well. There's not much "improvement" bending-wise that can really happen from there, so I think it's fine to just put all of them at High 8-C.

Special Thanks:

I took some of the ideas from a thread Zephryos made and one that Kukui made. That's where some of the stuff comes from, so I do want to give credit where credit is due.

We can move the proposals to a CRT after some thoughts are given on the topics.
 
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Holy shit dude

I knew avatar revisions were in the worlds but I didn't realize that they were this in-depth, good job

Anyway, I think everything on here looks good, except for "Possibly High 6-A". I'm not sure there's enough evidence for it to be a physical destruction feat, much less one that can really scale. But aside from that, I agree with everything on the list.
 
For the High 6-A thing, I think it's fine enough as possibly, it'd be someone no one can really scale to, it was so powerful to the point that it effortlessly defeated everyone and the water benders bowed to it's power praying to it and it's a fusion of avatar state + the spirit of the moon.
 
Looking at these upgrades, I think these make sense

The High 6-A stuff would work as a possibly as well, especially when you consider that it's implied The Avatar is moreover a manifestation of the earth and that you could also argue a possibly through the fact that The Avatar may have dominion over the earth (On a similar note to Captain Planet)
 
There’s a lot going on here but one thing. Koizilla’s low end shouldn’t be 7-C given that it has its own tier 6 feat.
 
A lot of these things were suggested already, some by me myself. So I’m definitely agreeing.

In fact, someone recently made a thread suggesting Korra, Unalaq, Raava and Vaatu scale above the moon and ocean spirits, the latters who should be much above the current tiers. You guys should check it out.
 
A lot of these things were suggested already, some by me myself. So I’m definitely agreeing.

In fact, someone recently made a thread suggesting Korra, Unalaq, Raava and Vaatu scale above the moon and ocean spirits, the latters who should be much above the current tiers. You guys should check it out.
Some of it was taken from other threads, yes (though a good amount of this came from convos I had with others like Giver in DMs). This was mainly because said things were never really accepted, unfortunately.

Also, were there direct statements of Vaatu and Raava being the strongest spirits? They are among the strongest obviously, but I don't remember any exact statements of that being the case.
 
Also, this is on an unrelated note, we should probably try to get new renders for some of the profiles. Some of them have really bad renders or just lack them in general. I made a new Kyoshi render and would be up to look into making more for the verse if needed.
Avatar_Kyoshi_Render.png
 
Some of it was taken from other threads, yes (though a good amount of this came from convos I had with others like Giver in DMs). This was mainly because said things were never really accepted, unfortunately.

Also, were there direct statements of Vaatu and Raava being the strongest spirits? They are among the strongest obviously, but I don't remember any exact statements of that being the case.
Yes. In the Wan backstory episodes, Raava and Vaatu were called the all-powerful spirits. I think that by itself should be more than enough for them to be absolutely no weaker than spirits who aren’t regarded with such a thing (at best, the moon spirit is just treated as an original master of waterbending, not an exceptionally powerful or important spirit).

We also have the fact that unlike other spirits, Raava and Vaatu are treated with having very important influence over the verse every time Harmonic Convergence happens. They’ve battled over the fate of the verse since the very beginning of time, making them irrefutably in a class of their own in the spirit food chain.
 
Yes. In the Wan backstory episodes, Raava and Vaatu were called the all-powerful spirits. I think that by itself should be more than enough for them to be absolutely no weaker than spirits who aren’t regarded with such a thing (at best, the moon spirit is just treated as an original master of waterbending, not an exceptionally powerful or important spirit).

We also have the fact that unlike other spirits, Raava and Vaatu are treated with having very important influence over the verse every time Harmonic Convergence happens. They’ve battled over the fate of the verse since the very beginning of time, making them irrefutably in a class of their own in the spirit food chain.
Yes, I agree that Vaatu and Raava are definitely among the most powerful spirits. However, I don't think that line of dialogue explicitly has them as being the strongest spirits ever.

That feels like it's downplaying the importance of the Ocean and Moon Spirits. The Northern Water Tribe soldiers stopped fighting and literally prayed to it like a god when they saw Koi-Zilla (which was moreso because of La's importance). Killing either of them has disastrous global consequences too.

I could see it as a possibility, but I think both sets of spirits are incredibly important and would be amongst the most powerful at their full potential. I'm neutral on it, but I'm listing off my problems with it is all.
 
> Also, I believe that all of the Avatars should get some sort of Reality Warping in the Spirit World. Iroh states that Korra's emotions were altering the Spirit World. Her emotions were able to generate a thunderstorm and made people start fighting with one another when she was upset. She undid all of this when she was positive afterward.

Isn't that just part of the inherent nature of the Spirit World, and not a special ability of Korra?
 
> Also, I believe that all of the Avatars should get some sort of Reality Warping in the Spirit World. Iroh states that Korra's emotions were altering the Spirit World. Her emotions were able to generate a thunderstorm and made people start fighting with one another when she was upset. She undid all of this when she was positive afterward.

Isn't that just part of the inherent nature of the Spirit World, and not a special ability of Korra?
That’s why it was suggested to be an ability Korra has in the spirit world only.
 
Yes, I agree that Vaatu and Raava are definitely among the most powerful spirits. However, I don't think that line of dialogue explicitly has them as being the strongest spirits ever.

That feels like it's downplaying the importance of the Ocean and Moon Spirits. The Northern Water Tribe soldiers stopped fighting and literally prayed to it like a god when they saw Koi-Zilla (which was moreso because of La's importance). Killing either of them has disastrous global consequences too.

I could see it as a possibility, but I think both sets of spirits are incredibly important and would be amongst the most powerful at their full potential. I'm neutral on it, but I'm listing off my problems with it is all.
Well Tui and La are “worshipped” by the water tribes because they’re the original waterbending masters and of course would be seen as incredibly important spirits in waterbending culture. No different then say the air bison in airbending culture, badgermoles in earthbending culture and the dragons in firebending culture.

I’m talking about their general importance and standing in the Avatar universe as a whole, which there isn’t much to besides being OG masters. They’re just ordinary spirits who are far superior to other normal spirits in strength. And I guess being the moon to help keep balance in the physical world.

Raava and Vaatu on the other hand are really in a class of their own as god tiers. They’re the ones who hold the fate of the physical/spirit worlds every Harmonic Convergence on their shoulders without other spirits being able to come into the mix (in fact when Wan saw them fighting, other spirits were running away from those 2 wrestling in the spirit wilds). They’ve been doing this since the beginning of existence in the verse, both being able to instill major influence. For Vaatu, Raava goes as far as treat Vaatu aa such a threat that she says, in quotes:

-“So, by freeing Vaatu, I let chaos into the world?” -Wan

“Precisely. The human and spirit realms are headed toward annihilation. And it’s all your fault.” -Raava

-“Thanks to you this world may cease to exist! I only hope I can track down Vaatu before it’s too late.” -Raava

-“Vaatu will destroy the world as you know it. Darkness will cover the earth for 10,000 years.” -Raava

Tui and La are never seen in that retrospect to be that strong and much of a threat. Things like that would put Raava and Vaatu on a higher pedestal than any other spirit in the verse (and if these spirits could really challenge them, I highly doubt Tui and La would sit around doing nothing as an evil force is getting in the way of things over everything.)

And as for the line of dialogue, of course Raava and Vaatu aren’t literally invincible spirits. The point though was that, since they’re considered all-powerful spirits as opposed to any other spirit, it would put them into a different class that no other spirit in the verse can rival.
 
It’s pretty apparent that Vaatu and Raava are the absolute god tiers of the verse. Whether or not the Avatars scale to Raava is up to debate though, and isn’t the conversation at hand.
 
It’s pretty apparent that Vaatu and Raava are the absolute god tiers of the verse. Whether or not the Avatars scale to Raava is up to debate though, and isn’t the conversation at hand.
It seems everyone else is agreeing to Vaatu and Raava being that high, so I guess they should be fine to have there. The point of this thread is to discuss the majority opinion after all, not stonewall on tiny things.

Anyway, the thread you linked seems to say that only Korra and Unalaq would scale this high through their Avatar States, which I can agree with. This means none of the past Avatars (Aang, Roku, etc.) can exactly scale to the full potential of Raava aside from Korra. That would also make them 5-C btw because they'd be above the Moon Spirit as well. Also, Raava should probably get two keys for the Depowered and Full Potential.
 
It’s pretty apparent that Vaatu and Raava are the absolute god tiers of the verse. Whether or not the Avatars scale to Raava is up to debate though, and isn’t the conversation at hand.
True. But I will say this because I think it’s an important point to bring up.

In another thread, someone gave pretty convincing evidence that Raava should have 2 tiers and that only Korra scales to a fully powered Raava.
 
Majority of that I agree with, but theres a few things I missed that I dont think Aang should have (this CRT was very large so my bad for not commenting earlier).

-Purification. While I can see the reason why Aang should have it, the Avatar State is only a mode an Avatar has when drawing power from Raava as an AP boost. Its not like Unalaq where he literally became Vaatu as "UnaVaatu". Theres really no evidence or reason to say the Avatar State could use Raavas haxes. And on-screen panel depictions and context go against this. If the Avatar State had Raava's purification, then Korra wouldnt have needed to actively learn spiritbending from Unalaq to subdue dark spirits. Especially since, as the spirit of light, it wouldve been far far superior purification than a sub-skill of waterbending Unalaq developed.

-Soul Manipulation. The hax itself is fine, but the "Should have the capabilities of Dark Avatar Unalaq, who ripped Raava's spirit from Korra" part should be removed . Unalaq having Vaatu come out of his body seems moreso a unique feat for Unalaq only because of Unalaq being more of a spiritual bender. Korra wouldve used this against Unalaq if she and Raava were actually capable of that. In addition, unlike Korra and Wan, Aang and the other past Avatars dont really work in tandom with Raava like Unalaq and Vaatu do.

Everything else im fine with.
 
Majority of that I agree with, but theres a few things I missed that I dont think Aang should have (this CRT was very large so my bad for not commenting earlier).

-Purification. While I can see the reason why Aang should have it, the Avatar State is only a mode an Avatar has when drawing power from Raava as an AP boost. Its not like Unalaq where he literally became Vaatu as "UnaVaatu". Theres really no evidence or reason to say the Avatar State could use Raavas haxes. And on-screen panel depictions and context go against this. If the Avatar State had Raava's purification, then Korra wouldnt have needed to actively learn spiritbending from Unalaq to subdue dark spirits. Especially since, as the spirit of light, it wouldve been far far superior purification than a sub-skill of waterbending Unalaq developed.

-Soul Manipulation. The hax itself is fine, but the "Should have the capabilities of Dark Avatar Unalaq, who ripped Raava's spirit from Korra" part should be removed . Unalaq having Vaatu come out of his body seems moreso a unique feat for Unalaq only because of Unalaq being more of a spiritual bender. Korra wouldve used this against Unalaq if she and Raava were actually capable of that. In addition, unlike Korra and Wan, Aang and the other past Avatars dont really work in tandom with Raava like Unalaq and Vaatu do.

Everything else im fine with.
When was it stated that the Avatar State only draws the power from Raava, though? The entire point of it was that it was the result of "combining energies". This is what even allowed Wan to use all four elements at the same time as Raava held them for him. Whenever they merged, he gained full access to those abilities Raava held for him. Korra developing the skill comes down to the general fact she doesn't use the Avatar State in every fight she's in as well. I really don't see why they wouldn't have some sort of Purification when it's pretty clear they derive the light from Raava too.

Why would that be unique to Unalaq? He's more spiritual, yes, but he's doing that from Vaatu's capabilities, not his own. That's not much of a reasoning for them not have it just because Korra didn't do it using Raava. That would either be her being unaware of the ability or the fact Raava was vastly inferior to Vaatu at the start of the Harmonic Convergence. You could make this argument for literally any character who scales hax-wise to another.

Example:
Master Mogul shouldn't have Dark Enerjak's Soul Manipulation, even if he absorbed Enerjak's abilities. Enerjak showed it can work on Super Sonic, yet he didn't do it when Turbo Tails, Super Sonic, and Hyper Knuckles were pressuring him.

Even if they didn't work directly with Raava like that, it wouldn't change that being a capability they have. There are multiple verses I can think of where hax is scaled like this without them actually ever using it themselves notably.

Alright, I'm glad everything else is agreeable.
 
When was it stated that the Avatar State only draws the power from Raava, though? The entire point of it was that it was the result of "combining energies". This is what even allowed Wan to use all four elements at the same time as Raava held them for him. Whenever they merged, he gained full access to those abilities Raava held for him. Korra developing the skill comes down to the general fact she doesn't use the Avatar State in every fight she's in as well. I really don't see why they wouldn't have some sort of Purification when it's pretty clear they derive the light from Raava too.

Why would that be unique to Unalaq? He's more spiritual, yes, but he's doing that from Vaatu's capabilities, not his own. That's not much of a reasoning for them not have it just because Korra didn't do it using Raava. That would either be her being unaware of the ability or the fact Raava was vastly inferior to Vaatu at the start of the Harmonic Convergence. You could make this argument for literally any character who scales hax-wise to another.

Example:
Master Mogul shouldn't have Dark Enerjak's Soul Manipulation, even if he absorbed Enerjak's abilities. Enerjak showed it can work on Super Sonic, yet he didn't do it when Turbo Tails, Super Sonic, and Hyper Knuckles were pressuring him.

Even if they didn't work directly with Raava like that, it wouldn't change that being a capability they have. There are multiple verses I can think of where hax is scaled like this without them actually ever using it themselves notably.

Alright, I'm glad everything else is agreeable.
Well, it’s them combining energies together, which should already signify it’s AP boost related. There’s a reason why the Avatar doesn’t become, say, intangible in the avatar state just because Raavas a spiritual being. And if it could really purify opponents, Aang would’ve never had to consult with his past lives about finding a way to stop Ozai without killing him (and this was the same guy who seriously thought he should gluebend Ozai to stop him from fighting lol). As well as Korra not needing to learn Spiritbending.

The 4 elements example really shouldn’t be used because Raava only held them temporarily until Wan mastered them later. Otherwise if it was Raava holding the elements the entire time, then the Avatar wouldn’t be able to bend other elements besides their native element without the Avatar State. Or use other elements with Raava gone (Korra showed airbending even after losing Raava). Or not rely on their chi points to bend the other elements (Korra getting bloodbend by Amon had all of her elements sans Air taken away permanently until Aang restored them, this would be pointless if Raava was holding the elements.)
 
Well, it’s them combining energies together, which should already signify it’s AP boost related. There’s a reason why the Avatar doesn’t become, say, intangible in the avatar state just because Raavas a spiritual being. And if it could really purify opponents, Aang would’ve never had to consult with his past lives about finding a way to stop Ozai without killing him (and this was the same guy who seriously thought he should gluebend Ozai to stop him from fighting lol). As well as Korra not needing to learn Spiritbending.

The 4 elements example really shouldn’t be used because Raava only held them temporarily until Wan mastered them later. Otherwise if it was Raava holding the elements the entire time, then the Avatar wouldn’t be able to bend other elements besides their native element without the Avatar State. Or use other elements with Raava gone (Korra showed airbending even after losing Raava). Or not rely on their chi points to bend the other elements (Korra getting bloodbend by Amon had all of her elements sans Air taken away permanently until Aang restored them, this would be pointless if Raava was holding the elements.)
Combining energies doesn't automatically translate to only an AP boost. The implications behind that dialogue aren't mutually exclusive in regard to the abilities too. That's a false equivalency. One is deriving from an ability Raava performs herself while the other is from her innate physiology. The Avatar is a human at the end of the day so of course, they're not going to become incorporeal in the Avatar State.

I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. It wouldn't be a passive or anything like that, it's just something they could potentially do. Purification like that wouldn't really work like that on Ozai. The entire thing stems from it removing corruption on beings that aren't naturally like that. Ozai isn't corrupted, he's just flat out evil with absolutely no redemption. You yourself even said the past Avatars didn't really work with Raava as Wan and Korra did, so I don't see why them not knowing of such a thing would work against this. That would still make Aang's problem Ozai narratively correct. As for Spiritbending, Korra wasn't even aware of how Raava truly worked until she had amnesia. She had already tried to learn Spiritbending beforehand and her failed attempt at it is what even got her amnesia in the first place. Also, Korra doesn't use the Avatar State to solve every problem. Her not using it in "X Scenario" isn't a reason for it to not be a thing, that would just be for the sake of plot convenience. I gave an example with Mammoth Mogul that pretty much illustrated this. Just because he didn't soul hax Sonic doesn't mean he doesn't have it at all, it's just working that way for the sake of the plot. That's just how stories work at times.

It's a pretty good example and shows why this clearly is the case. Wan was literally incapable of using them all at once until he fused with Raava. Raava had to keep passing through him for him to use each element separately if he wanted to do so before merging. They would still be fine to bend the elements without the Avatar State. That's just something that came as a side effect of merging permanently with Raava. If Raava is just permanently inside of the Avatar, there is no concern for needing to just hold the elements independently as their energies are forever intertwined. This addresses the Amon point too if the Avatar naturally wields the elements by that point. Also, Korra being able to use Airbending without Raava is either an inconsistency or arguably part of another established plot point in Avatar Wan's story where spirits can leave residual effects after possession/merging.
 
It would help if someone can add the topic of discussion being Avatar here btw. I'm not familiar with how to do so on the new forum.
 
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Yeah, I know. I should have explained this, but I put a star next to it to show it was something most of them could do. The rest of the stuff is pretty common among all of them though.
 
Should we start discussing what Korra and Unalaqs tiers would be with a fully powered Raava?
I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. It wouldn't be a passive or anything like that, it's just something they could potentially do.
I guess that’s fair then. But if it’s only based on them being able to potentially use them, they should be given a “possibly” added for them instead of getting those 2 abilities flat out.
 
I'd be fine with a possibly then, that's fine.

Also, I think they'd just be 5-C for upscaling from Tui/Ascended Yue. They would have Unalaq's feat as the Dark Avatar to validate it as well.

I found two LoK showings that spirits are naturally intangible too since that was a point of contention in past threads. Tokuga's knives went through an eel spirit and said spirit passed through him. The spirits were going to be unaffected by a poison gas Tokuga's gang made too because of their physiology IIRC. I think this should be evidence enough Benders should have NPI.

EDIT:

I have a few things to add/correct for Tokuga as well.

For the hax split of keys...
Powers and Abilities: Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Martial Arts, Chi-Blocking (Through Chi-Blocking, he can disrupt a Bender's chi and leave them paralyzed), Weapon Mastery (Wields hook swords in combat. Has used them to help triumph over Benders), Smoke Manipulation (Via Smoke Canisters) | All previous abilities, Preparation, Resistance to Poison Manipulation (Unaffected by poison gas)

He should get an Optional Equipment mention of abilities with Poison Manipulation considering he was going to use a blimp to spread poison gas throughout Republic City.

His AP note should be changed. The Post-Possession key has some weird wording for it. Also, while I wouldn't be surprised if he was comparable to Ty Lee or Sokka, he should get the ratings he has based on stuff he does.

Here is a revised version:
Attack Potency: Wall level (Able to harm an injured Mako. Killed Viper off-screen), chi blocking Ignores Durabilty | At least Wall level (Stated he was stronger than before. Easily broke a wooden table, broke Jemanite crystal, broke Korra's metal restraint, and he threatened to choke a man to death)

It should be worth noting Asami was the one who made the poison gas for Tokuga.

Additionally, the Resistance to Poison Manipulation could probably scale to Vaatu and Raava considering Tokuga said being half-spirit allowed him to resist the effects of the poison gas.
 
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But wait, why 5-C? Aren't Tui and La supposed to be equals as a moon/ocean duo? Wouldnt they scale to La's High 6-A's rating?

Also, I dont think 5-C should neccessarily be scaled since Tui/Yue are only that tier for being a living moon essentially. Its not like they can fight as a celestial object.
 
But wait, why 5-C? Aren't Tui and La supposed to be equals as a moon/ocean duo? Wouldnt they scale to La's High 6-A's rating?

Also, I dont think 5-C should neccessarily be scaled since Tui/Yue are only that tier for being a living moon essentially. Its not like they can fight as a celestial object.
That's what the original post you linked suggested. Also, as for the equal thing, I'm pretty sure it'd just mostly be symbolic rather than actually power-wise. Both are important for Waterbenders after all. I'm fine for At least High 6-A or 5-C. Depowered Avatars would lose the 6-A ED destruction too since we're going for the split.

Also, I updated my last post a couple of minutes after you posted it. You might wanna take a look at that stuff. I've been going through a decent amount of Avatar content as of late.
 
Fair. I definitely agree with High 6-A Avatar State/Dark Avatar State Korra and Unalaq. 5-C IMO should scale to no one but Yue/Tui.

We should also write up a good justification for why Aang (without La of course) and the other Avatars don't scale to High 6-A like Korra and Unalaq do. Here's notes with good wording that I think the Avatar pages could have:

"Note: While all Avatars dwell on Raava as their source of power in the Avatar State, Avatars prior to Korra were only empowered by a severely depowered Raava as a result of Vaatu's influence, and should not scale to the level of power she normally possesses."

And a note to put on Korra's page later:

"Note: While all Avatars dwell on Raava as their source of power in the Avatar State, Korra is currently the only existing Avatar to be empowered by Raava when at the level of power she normally possesses post-Harmonic Convergence, and should accordingly be the only Avatar who scales to the totality of Raava's power."

Anyone agree with the wording? Or should it be edited?
 
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I think that works pretty well Kukui.

Also, I have a couple more things that would help this thread/to add.
- The notability of Toph's Seismic Sense is noted in one of the comics.
- Benders are able to bend while they are unconscious/asleep.
- Iroh could probably get an update for his intelligence section regarding how he learned the culture and ways of all of the other nations.
- More general supporting evidence for Waterbender abilities.
- Suki's skill is described by Aang as being skill that Sokka could "only dream of".
- An update to the Aang's sandbox with the Koi-Zilla key should have the High 7-A/6-C feat that it does noted. It could probably be changed to "High 7-A/6-C, likely High 6-A" if there was any problem with High 6-A (I believe only one person did though).
- Zuko's skill with swords can be attributed to training with Piandao.
- Extra narration from Ozai that says Aang absorbed lightning when he did the redirection.

While pretty much most of this is stuff we know, they just give nice boosted clarifications we can add for present and future profiles.
 
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if you guys want a read (plz just talk about it here after reading , ya know im horrible xd) anyways question i recently made some avatar feats on a death battle group.. base korra with air bending was able to push back the mecha which should be large building since the force was great enough for it to break buildings in the process . grr i wish the gif/picture thing was easier to use would be much faster
 
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