Some haxless 9-B guy fights a planet buster brick (Pyro vs Minotaur)

[Keeweed]

I’m pretty sure the fire not ignoring durability stuff from staff came from before we started to accept it more as durability negation. I don’t see why it wouldn’t ignore durability, it’s not a physical attack and in real life I’ve seen it be used as durability negation multiple times. Such as honey bees being able to boil hornets alive despite hornet being able to completely obliterate bees physically. Things have melting points and when those temperatures are met they start to melt. Though I still think Pyro loses because it’s a 5-B, but I will die on the hill saying fire should absolutely kill someone without proper resistance.

 

[Keeweed]

Like just having higher ap doesn’t make you resist chemical attacks, why would it give you elemental resistances when that doesn’t attack your physical durability either, it revolves around chemical bonds and the movement of atoms (for fire and ice anyways)

 

[Rez]

It is stupid to think that you can brute force elemental attacks because "hurr durr...Well..They are like..Energies". While ignoring the side effects, and the inner working of those

It's not they are like energies, heat is energy thermal energy, heat is generated/lost, whenever transfer of energy occurs.

 

[Rez]

Like just having higher ap doesn’t make you resist chemical attacks, why would it give you elemental resistances when that doesn’t attack your physical durability either, it revolves around chemical bonds and the movement of atoms (for fire and ice anyways)

If a 5-B character can take a bit from another 5-B they are also tanking the amount of heat generated by that hit.

 

[Keeweed]

What, 5-B attacks don’t inherently create heat, that has to be shown and that would just be a showcase of fire resistance. Thermal energy clearly is different than taking kinetic energy. As shown by how stronger animals can die from heat that weaker animals can survive and materials that can take more blunt force and stabbing damage can melt easier. Steel has a lower melting point than iron but is overall tougher in the physical department.

 

[AThe1412]

I’m pretty sure the fire not ignoring durability stuff from staff came from before we started to accept it more as durability negation. I don’t see why it wouldn’t ignore durability, it’s not a physical attack and in real life I’ve seen it be used as durability negation multiple times. Such as honey bees being able to boil hornets alive despite hornet being able to completely obliterate bees physically. Things have melting points and when those temperatures are met they start to melt. Though I still think Pyro loses because it’s a 5-B, but I will die on the hill saying fire should absolutely kill someone without proper resistance.

So what you're saying is... a group of 10-Cs can kill another 10-C by using the latter's weakness to heat which is even noted on the profile? Yes, fire can kill someone as long as it has the necessary AP and that person doesn't have resistance to that level of heat. Isn't that how things always has been?

Like just having higher ap doesn’t make you resist chemical attacks, why would it give you elemental resistances when that doesn’t attack your physical durability either, it revolves around chemical bonds and the movement of atoms (for fire and ice anyways)

What, 5-B attacks don’t inherently create heat, that has to be shown and that would just be a showcase of fire resistance. Thermal energy clearly is different than taking kinetic energy. As shown by how stronger animals can die from heat that weaker animals can survive and materials that can take more blunt force and stabbing damage can melt easier. Steel has a lower melting point than iron but is overall tougher in the physical department.

These are honestly good points...
Unfortunately, that's not how heat is typically treated in fiction. Poison, acid, and radiation being able to negate durability makes sense since they really have nothing to do with energy. Also, this thread exists.

 

[Armorchompy]

What, 5-B attacks don’t inherently create heat, that has to be shown and that would just be a showcase of fire resistance. Thermal energy clearly is different than taking kinetic energy. As shown by how stronger animals can die from heat that weaker animals can survive and materials that can take more blunt force and stabbing damage can melt easier. Steel has a lower melting point than iron but is overall tougher in the physical department.

By the same logic we should separate shear/tensile/compressive durability, those aren't really correlated in materials either.

Also yes, every movement inherently creates proportional heat, that's why they call them thermodynamics

 

[Keeweed]

So what you're saying is... a group of 10-Cs can kill another 10-C by using the latter's weakness to heat which is even noted on the profile? Yes, fire can kill someone as long as it has the necessary AP and that person doesn't have resistance to that level of heat. Isn't that how things always has been?


These are honestly good points...
Unfortunately, that's not how heat is typically treated in fiction. Poison, acid, and radiation being able to negate durability makes sense since they really have nothing to do with energy. Also, this thread exists.

A 10-C that is hilarious beneath the other one physically. Also there are 10-C animals that can live near thermal vents in the ocean. A human can easily kill them but the heat would instantly kill a human.

That thread was made before another thread more agreed on it being durability negation, but I could make another thread on it when I finish my semester of school.

Also fiction absolutely treats it accurately a ton of times. Many games have fire resistance be a different state, many shows have above tier 9 characters die from fire, like Goku has been burnt by lava before. You are just saying an assumption.

 

[Keeweed]

By the same logic we should separate shear/tensile/compressive durability, those aren't really correlated in materials either.

Also yes, every movement inherently creates proportional heat, that's why they call them thermodynamics

I know every movement creates some heat, but it’s not directed at anything and it wouldn’t be the equivalent of 5-B energy in heat from a 5-B attack. It would be completely unquantifiable unless the story actually acknowledges it, and even then that would just be a feat of heat resistance for that character. Though, when I said we shouldn’t assume that by default, I meant that 99% of characters above tier 9 don’t just burst things into flames by punching them, so they never show heat from just regular punching. Which I think would line up anyways because heat from movement isn’t directed at anything and is a small percentage of the energy of the movement that is completely unquantifiable in fiction.

Also, realistically we should treat physical durability differently, why should we be unrealistic with fire then. That doesn’t make sense, we do this wrong so let’s do another wrong. Fire is a lot more easier to manage than every minute detail of physical damage. It has chemical properties to it and how tough your muscles are shouldn’t just be able to stop the movement of atoms.

 

[Armorchompy]

I know every movement creates some heat, but it’s not directed at anything and it wouldn’t be the equivalent of 5-B energy in heat from a 5-B attack.

It would however be directly related to AP and it would definitely be quantifiable if not quite 5-B. It would also be something that anyone tanking a strike from would definitely be exposed to, so it is also directed at something. Not to mention they would themselves emanate that much heat within their own bodies just by moving like that and inherently need to withstand that.

Though, when I said we shouldn’t assume that by default, I meant that 99% of characters above tier 9 don’t just burst things into flames by punching them

Planetary characters don't destroy countries with every punch thrown in the air either.

Also, realistically we should treat physical durability differently, why should we be unrealistic with fire then. That doesn’t make sense, we do this wrong so let’s do another wrong.

We're not realistic here and we don't try to be either. Our system is extremely simplified and it is for a reason- it's stupid as hell to say a planet buster dies when shot with a flamethrower.

A 10-C that is hilarious beneath the other one physically. Also there are 10-C animals that can live near thermal vents in the ocean. A human can easily kill them but the heat would instantly kill a human.

We're not saying tanking heat should scale to your durability, we're saying that supernaturally high durability allows you to tank heat.

 

[Keeweed]

But why be purposefully dead wrong. Like I get why with physical durability, tracking every minute detail would be a physically impossible task. But heat is just a singular thing and it very clearly in real life does not relate to the physical damage you can take. As shown by many animals and materials having vastly different levels of heat resistance than to their physical toughness.

It’s related to KE, but ap isn’t always KE and it doesn’t directly translate at all. We specifically can’t get speed from ap for a reason and thus cannot get heat for the same reason.

 

[Armorchompy]

But why be purposefully dead wrong. Like I get why with physical durability, tracking every minute detail would be a physical impossible task. But heat is just a singular thing and it very clearly in real life does not relate to the physical damage you can take.

We're not abstracting different parts of physical durability because it's too hard, we're just purposefully unifying durability into one thing, because it'd be very silly to say that a character's body has 5-B resistance to compression but the second you try to shear it with that same amount of strength instead he falls apart like dust because we don't have showings of that.

"Durability" as a concept is an abstraction already, there isn't any material that could be supernaturally durable (per cm^3) like the skin and body of just about every superhuman character in fiction, by assuming that it's possible for a human-sized character to be 8-B you're already saying they break every other law of physics and are supernaturally capable of resisting transfer of energy. To say that somehow heat is not part of that is pretty silly and leads to even sillier results.

It’s related to KE, but ap isn’t always KE and it doesn’t directly translate at all. We specifically can’t get speed from ap for a reason and thus cannot get heat for the same reason.

We do treat Newton's Third Law as taking place as the default assumption and that's much closer to it, so nah.

 

[Keeweed]

If it is quantifiable why not calculate it then and give the characters the proper heat resistance then? Like I mean this seriously, if it is truely quantifiable then quantify it.

The physical durabilities could absolutely be very different from each other, we would have no way to know if they are or aren’t for a character. Like how the 4-B Wonder Woman gets killed by 9-C bullets. However, if the default assumption is supposed to be mostly phsyically sound then why be wrong about fire. Why not actually use the heat resistance the character can or doesn’t have. Because heat resistance isn’t physical resistance so qualify the actual amount of heat our Minotaur buddy in this fight can survive.

Assuming the verse doesn’t contradict the heat resistance he should realistically have, which I know for a fact marvel comics does.

 

[Livinmeme]

Unfortunately, that's not how heat is typically treated in fiction. Poison, acid, and radiation being able to negate durability makes sense since they really have nothing to do with energy. Also, this thread exists.

Proof???? Because super duper strong characters, getting wasted by heat is common

 

[Emerald]

insert here characters way above 8-A getting fcked by the Sun's heat

 

[Livinmeme]

insert here characters way above 8-A getting fcked by the Sun's heat

Cooler for example

 

[AThe1412]

Cooler for example

PIS is a thing. Characters get harmed by things that shouldn't harm them all the time. Some examples I saw on another thread (Examples that you made, actually) includes a 4-B characters getting harmed by pipes and 2-A characters getting harmed by guns. I know a Low 1-C villain who was defeated by getting kicked into the sun which shouldn't even be possible due to him being 5-D. Does it make sense? No. Is it cool? Yes.

 

[Livinmeme]

PIS is a thing. Characters get harmed by things that shouldn't harm them all the time. Some examples I saw on another thread (Examples that you made, actually) includes a 4-B characters getting harmed by pipes and 2-A characters getting harmed by guns. I know a Low 1-C villain who was defeated by getting kicked into the sun which shouldn't even be possible due to him being 5-D. Does it make sense? No. Is it cool? Yes.

What? It isn't PIS. Just because you are able to tank kinetic/tensile/prensile energy, doesn't mean you can tank elemental energies. Their fundamentals are inherently different. Doesn't help how your entire post, is just a big personal increduility fallacy

 

[Armorchompy]

If it is quantifiable why not calculate it then and give the characters the proper heat resistance then? Like I mean this seriously, if it is truely quantifiable then quantify it.

It's proportional. You don't need to put a number on it to say that a 5-B character doesn't get hurt by a ******' 9-B, and I'd much rather say it's roughly within the ballpark of the AP (which it is) than say you could burn

The physical durabilities could absolutely be very different from each other, we would have no way to know if they are or aren’t for a character. Like how the 4-B Wonder Woman gets killed by 9-C bullets.

Because of a specific verse mechanic that is unique to her, it's not the default assumption, unless you also want to go and say every other character with superhuman durability in fiction should die to bullets and long falls unless otherwise shown.

 

[Keeweed]

My point with Wonder Woman is that fiction is fiction and can be really finicky with this stuff. So we can’t just go and say he has fire resistance when he’s never shown it. Especially since Marvel absolutely has characters above tier 9 get hurt by normal fire all the time. Resisting thermal and kinetic energy are different things and for stories that don’t showcase physical durability relating to heat, and actively contradicting the heat resistance you are saying they should have, shouldn’t have heat resistance.

It’s not a 9-B killing a 5-B, it’s fire burning something without resistance to fire. Let me remind you there are 10-C ocean worms in real life that can survive in areas hot enough to immediately cook us alive.

Plus what is the actual temperature he resist based off what you are saying. The temperature matters, you can’t just say he resist with no math to back it up.

Edit: I just thought about how we have it that lifting strength and everything else is completely unrelated to each other, and nobody bats an eye at that. Like there are 3-A’s (through physical feats) with class 1 lifting strength. But when a character that lacks heat resistance doesn’t have heat resistance (and is in a verse that contradicts him having heat resistance hard) that’s strange for some reason.

 

[Keeweed]

PIS is a thing. Characters get harmed by things that shouldn't harm them all the time. Some examples I saw on another thread (Examples that you made, actually) includes a 4-B characters getting harmed by pipes and 2-A characters getting harmed by guns. I know a Low 1-C villain who was defeated by getting kicked into the sun which shouldn't even be possible due to him being 5-D. Does it make sense? No. Is it cool? Yes.

Except thermal and physical durability is absolutely different in real life, so this won’t be a contradiction to their durability, all it means is that they lack heat resistance.

 

[CBslayeR]

i think it should be case by case

if a character has lower showings of heat resistance than what their tier implies then we use those showings (like Cooler for example)

if a character doesn't then it's not in good faith to just assume that they can't take ANY heat whatsoever, can you in good faith unironically argue with someone that a 3-A is losing to a 10-A because they have a flamethrower? no, because that's completely ******* stupid and feels spiteful and NLF honestly


it's like how no one on this wiki would argue certain characters would beat DBS Goku because they have higher LS than Class M, argue something like that and people would be praying at a local church for the VSBW demons to release you from their grasp lmfao

 

[Keeweed]

Honestly, I was going to make a thread after the 8th, end of my school semester, and the point was to make it case by case. I can see why realistically they should be producing heat, but so many verses contradict it to the point it’s like how space freezes things. Trust me, pretty much every popular verse ever likely would have no heat resistance though. Comics love throwing 5-Bs and higher into the Sun, and games have lava a lot.