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So about DBZ Kai?

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AwkguyDB


Author statements are more important than consistency and what makes the original dbz anime not canon and kai canon.

btw are hercule's henchmen in kai because if they are not then that must mean the dbz is canon because super showed hercule's henchmen in the first few episodes

statements from the anime staff themselves suggest super being canon to the dbz anime

the future trunks flashback showcased in super matched the original anime's intention much more closely
 
Missy0124 said:
AwkguyDB
Author statements are more important than consistency and what makes the original dbz anime not canon and kai canon.

btw are hercule's henchmen in kai because if they are not then that must mean the dbz is canon because super showed hercule's henchmen in the first few episodes

statements from the anime staff themselves suggest super being canon to the dbz anime

the future trunks flashback showcased in super matched the original anime's intention much more closely
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Hercule's students aren't that big of a deal because its not that important you could easily explain why his students may not have appeared in the Anime and the manga during the Cell games as non of them reference their participation in the Cell games.
 
Nitro90 said:
What does Gohan death look like in the Manga
Click to expand...
So here's what is on Kanzenshuu about the SSJ Trunks Manga vs Anime conflict

Super Saiyan Trunks
CONFLICT

In the manga, Trunks is shown to be a Super Saiyan the entire time while training in the future. In the animated TV special, this story is changed, showing Trunks to become a Super Saiyan only after coming across Gohan's dead body.

FACTS

The manga's extra chapter shows Trunks as a Super Saiyan for its entire duration. However, in the anime version which became a TV special, Trunks is shown to be a vulnerable young boy, who has not yet trained to the point of being able to become a Super Saiyan. It is not until Gohan is killed by Artificial Humans No. 17 and No. 18, and Trunks comes across Gohan's dead body lying face first in a puddle, that he is pushed over the edge to become a Super Saiyan. This was most likely changed for dramatic effect, as a TV special about an already-Super Saiyan Trunks would not have been as interesting.
 
Nitro90 said:
At this point just remake the whole series and everything in that is the canon.


I am joking by the way
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Ok after reading all that I know I said this is a joke but now I kinda mean it
 
Nitro90 said:
Nitro90 said:
At this point just remake the whole series and everything in that is the canon.


I am joking by the way
Click to expand...
Ok after reading all that I know I said this is a joke but now I kinda mean it
Click to expand...
They might as well since they wanted to just retcon so much in Super anyways like Goku's origin, Hell, Vegito's time limit, Beerus' 70%, Frieza's Power level etc.
 
I have always thought Vegito fusion is better for plot reasons. Like they can do the dance any time. While the earrings can be destroy and are permanent you can just alright let's fuse
 
Honestly I'm confused as to why Kai is disregarded and not used as secondary canon, or at least scaled to Super.

One filler scene in hell doesn't justify "Considerable contradictions" imo, and it sounds like a pretty weak excuse imo.
 
AwkguyDB

Super cannot be canon to kai because the time travel mechanics are different and since your on the topic of fusion explain how potara can be permanent in kai yet temporary in super


the fact super features toei only characters showcases that it's canon to that show
 
Nitro90

potara was permanent in the manga which is one of the many inconsistencies super has and the fact super has ties to the anime via featuring the same characters and having the staff admit it's connected to the anime series just showcases that super cannot be canon to the manga
 
I mean am I the only one who doesn't actually think the Retcon contradicts the original show?

Think about it: Kibito(a supreme Kai) remained fused, while Vegito( a mortal fusion) unfused after a while. Looking at it this way the "Retcon" simply provided an explanation for why Vegito unfused in the first place. The reason that I always saw was "Buu's magic" but that doesn't make sense because when he absorbed Gotenks he didn't unfuse until his time limit ran out. So I actually think the retcon simply explained a plot hole in the original series.
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
I mean am I the only one who doesn't actually think the Retcon contradicts the original show?

Think about it: Kibito(a supreme Kai) remained fused, while Vegito( a mortal fusion) unfused after a while. Looking at it this way the "Retcon" simply provided an explanation for why Vegito unfused in the first place. The reason that I always saw was "Buu's magic" but that doesn't make sense because when he absorbed Gotenks he didn't unfuse until his time limit ran out. So I actually think the retcon simply explained a plot hole in the original series.
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Will 2 things .

1.For gotenks you could just make the argument that it's a different type of fusion so it wouldn't effect it the same.

2.Also the reason that Super gives doesn't make senes IMO wasn't something like Goku and Vegeta aren't Gods that's why it didn't stay?
 
@Nitro

Yes, because they're not supreme Kais, but I still don't see how that contradicts the original series. If anything it explains away a plot hole. And if you want to cite the Supreme Kai's statements, well he has shown on multiple occasions that there are gaps in their knowledge. They're not omniscient and have been wrong before, so idk.
 
UchihaSlayer96


There was no plot hole it was buu's magic as you yourself stated the fact you find the actual reason for them unfusing to be a plot hole just shows your ignorance nonetheless gotenks defused because of the time limit so that's not a contradiction.

super changed the story and it's context because why not the fact you find that to be exposition shows you never watched or read the source material.


a plot hole is a contradiction to previously established information while a ret con retroactively changes continuity to suit it's purposes eg shakaku from part 1 of naruto was not stated to be a bjuu but in part 2 they retconed his backstory so he was one
 
UchihaSlayer96

the elder kaioshin mentioned that being transformed while fusing causes the person to lose half their lifespan and since kaio can't transform we know he must of been referring to another mortal fusing so it's impossible for super's retcon to even make sense but think what you must

what about what i said was rude?
 
Missy0124 said:
AwkguyDB
Super cannot be canon to kai because the time travel mechanics are different and since your on the topic of fusion explain how potara can be permanent in kai yet temporary in super


the fact super features toei only characters showcases that it's canon to that show
Click to expand...
You do realize it was permanent in the anime and the manga

also no the explanation Trunks gives in Kai is the same as the manga

Whatever you do in the past will not change the future but would create a new timeline that was explained by Trunks Ep 67 of DBZKAI @ exactly 04:00

and we see evidence of this in Super when a time ring is created via a change in the timeline.
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
@Nitro

Yes, because they're not supreme Kais, but I still don't see how that contradicts the original series. If anything it explains away a plot hole. And if you want to cite the Supreme Kai's statements, well he has shown on multiple occasions that there are gaps in their knowledge. They're not omniscient and have been wrong before, so idk.
Click to expand...
That's a pretty big gap it's not the point of being omniscient it's the point that old kai could mention everything else even say it's permanent but forget that it's only for kai's.
 
AwkguyDB

super ties into the dbz anime better for the reasons given but saying as the show is a mess regardless it's going to be hard for everything to line up connecting it to the dbz anime makes the most sense considering the facts i've seen but then again issues with plot will always be a problem with super due to the nature of that show

In super time travel affects different timelines instead of creating separate ones like dbz established eg goku black going back in time caused himself to be created and beersus destroying zamasu allowed future zamasu to exist.
 
AKM sama


There's literally nothing supporting super following the manga it's just some rule the site has that makes zero sense even by it's own admission nonetheless i'm not in control and arguments matter not here so just enact whatever policies you like regardless of their validity.


it's been discussed time and time again and it's been debunked without much effort every single time ether by me or other users but since debate on this topic is forbidden we have the mods shut down the conversation because if you guys actually debated your polices instead of using your power to forcibly enact them we would actually have a good system but since it's literally i'm a mod therefore this is the way it is.
 
AKM sama said:
I think this has already been discussed:
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/655658

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2803042

Kai is not considered canon. DBS follows the canon, i.e. the manga.
Click to expand...
Antoniofer literally said that Kai was no more canon than Super and Super no more than Kai. My problem here is that we are saying that Kai has multiple major contradictions when those contradictions are not major at all. Super just retcon a few things. Many comics go through retcons on here but we don't discredit everything pre retcon if it is something as specific as cosmology aesthetics.
 
AwkguyDB

rules and policies are decided by executive choice honestly trying to debate topics with the system here is pointless because the mods ether always shut down the discussion or just use their position to assert that their correct.

super fits more in line with the toei anime if your being factually accurate
 
Missy0124 said:
AwkguyDBrules and policies are decided by executive choice honestly trying to debate topics with the system here is pointless because the mods ether always shut down the discussion or just use their position to assert that their correct.
super fits more in line with the toei anime if your being factually accurate
Click to expand...
They would never agree to that but honestly they would need to agree with the simple fact that Toriyama said that Super the anime is a successor of DBZ the Anime whether it be Kai or OG Z it does not matter.

What needs to happen is that this needs to be fully re-evaluated by staff just because policies are sent doesn't mean they aren't subject to change. A lot of the tiering system and many other policies have changed within the last 3 years. Elder God Demonbane went from 1-A to fricken 3-A in just a few days and his run ended over 14 years ago.
 
The proposal is simple:

Theses should be their own canons

The Mangaverse

DB minus => Jaco the Galactic Patrolmen => DB Manga => DBS Manga/ DBZ RoF Movie (Chou) => DBS Broly => DBS Manga Moro Arc(Chou)

The Original Toeiverse

DB anime/movies => DBZ anime/movies => DBGT

The New Toeiverse

DBS Broly origins => DB anime/ or manga => DBZ Kai anime => DBS anime => DBS Broly

The Heroesverse

All DB media (bar Xenoverse) => Heroes (Promotionals/Games/Manga)

Xenoverse

All DB media (bar Heroes) => Xenoverse (Xenoverse 1 and 2)
 
I definitely agree that just because something was discussed and rejected in the past, it shouldn't be immediately dismissed. Arguments change, people's opinions change, and standards change as well.

Personally I think the reasons for dismissing the anime weren't as strong as they should be, and need more discussion just to reach a more conclusive conclusion. Besides these threads are pretty old too.
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
@AwkguyDB
Your proposal makes sense to me tbh.
Click to expand...
made some edits to make sure I added everything but yeah like it just doesn't make sense to loop all these canons when as I stated above Authors and Producers of the series have made it clear what follows what.
 
AwkguyDB


They would never agree to running off of executive choice despite them consistently doing such and they know their canon policy on super is dumb they literally have a note on the main page explaining how it's dumb.

nobody cares about making revisions to decade old verse that's why it got though a and b this verse most likely does not have advance rulings like the more bigger verses have another example would be the dc/ marvel verses nonetheless the fact they have shut down arguments and were unwilling to listen to the other side just shows that this ruling will not change until the next anime only sequel comes out.

the dragon ball movies do not relate to the anime but that's just another example of executive choice over actual facts btw xenoverse takes place in the same verse as heroes towa mentions the events of xenoverse 1 in heroes as a example.

super literally reanimates the scene from the trunks special so how is it not canon to the toei anime plus king vegeta is even showcased in his dbz design during battle of gods so if anything that proves super to be canon to the toei anime not kai.


i disagree with the super manga being canon because it's literally adapted from same outline and also because it's a manga based off the anime there's other reasons like featuring anime only characters like dai kaioshin

UchihaSlayer96


If they wanted discourse and debate about their policies they would of actually debated the people pressuring their ideals not ban them but then again this entire site is ran via executive choice can't be shocked tho it's not like literally every other wikia i've been too functioned that exact same way.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
I mean Toriyama did state that all the Movies are from separate dimensions, not in one continuity.
Click to expand...
Lol I said that above too but to be fair Toriyama also forgot this scene exist

Because of Fusion Reborn

Every movie prior to this movie is in this dimension.

Plus GT has both Wrath of the Dragon and Fusion Reborn canon events due to Goku knowing Dragon Fist and Vegeta knowing Fusion.
TS 5tP
 
Then why isn't Broly in Fusion Reborn? Also, didn't the director of the movies state that Broly was the strongest movie villain?
 
AwkguyDB said:
The proposal is simple:

Theses should be their own canons

The Mangaverse

DB minus => Jaco the Galactic Patrolmen => DB Manga => DBS Manga/ DBZ RoF Movie (Chou) => DBS Broly => DBS Manga Moro Arc(Chou)

The Original Toeiverse

DB anime/movies => DBZ anime/movies => DBGT

The New Toeiverse

DBS Broly origins => DB anime/ or manga => DBZ Kai anime => DBS anime => DBS Broly

The Heroesverse

All DB media (bar Xenoverse) => Heroes (Promotionals/Games/Manga)

Xenoverse

All DB media (bar Heroes) => Xenoverse (Xenoverse 1 and 2)
Click to expand...
This should be in the OP.
 
Missy0124 said:
AwkguyDB


They would never agree to running off of executive choice despite them consistently doing such and they know their canon policy on super is dumb they literally have a note on the main page explaining how it's dumb.

nobody cares about making revisions to decade old verse that's why it got though a and b this verse most likely does not have advance rulings like the more bigger verses have another example would be the dc/ marvel verses nonetheless the fact they have shut down arguments and were unwilling to listen to the other side just shows that this ruling will not change until the next anime only sequel comes out.

the dragon ball movies do not relate to the anime but that's just another example of executive choice over actual facts btw xenoverse takes place in the same verse as heroes towa mentions the events of xenoverse 1 in heroes as a example
Click to expand...
well we will see what happens

I think I remember where Xenoverse was mentioned in Heroes so I guess we can link the two but it seems like most of the events are different.
 
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