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How do you know they didn't?Sure, time passed, but if we are using vsbw stats for ToP clock, then that means that Goku and Jiren could have fought quantillons of times, before even a second passed
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How do you know they didn't?Sure, time passed, but if we are using vsbw stats for ToP clock, then that means that Goku and Jiren could have fought quantillons of times, before even a second passed
....? I am confused at what you saidYou forgot option four: time manipulation, specifically goku moved at a faster rate of time.
If everyone has a normal rate of time, goku moved at a faster rate of time.....? I am confused at what you said
WHat do you think of the proposal?How do you know they didn't?
this is the safest option for now, if there is a situation that supports this in the future, then this issue can be discussed again.Option 2: Immeasurable Speed, but outlier
Option 1, but consider the Feat an outlier
I mean they clearly wouldn’t be moving at their top speed 24/7. And since they’d be fighting people relative to them in speed from their perspective time would pass. This same line of logic tracks with MFTL+ speed as well.Every instance that time passes in Dragon Ball Super, since If they have immerasuble speed, time would't have passed.
Like Top.
Goku and the rest of the verse would still end up being immeasurable in all speed categories as blitzes exist.Plus off the examples the OP posted this wound be immeasurable combat/reaction speed at best realistically considering it’s obviously not correlating to their travel speed.
That doesn’t make sense to me. They’re not traveling through time.Goku and the rest of the verse would still end up being immeasurable in all speed categories as blitzes exist.
The feat in this case is nothing but Goku doing just thatThat doesn’t make sense to me. They’re not traveling through time.
How do you know that they did?How do you know they didn't?
I never claimed that they did.How do you know that they did?
Idk if this is taken seriously but a second later it’s stated he had power to transcend time.How is it an outlier if hit wouldn't even try it again, and we straight up see jiren MOVING in it, to the point of it becoming just useless, this implies no matter how much he would improve the technique, it wouldn't work.
It's in the context of Hit's abilities. He doesn't possess some qualitative superiority to Time in general (which such a statement wouldn't be enough for anyway!)Idk if this is taken seriously but a second later it’s stated he had power to transcend time.
outlier, hyperbole, flowery language, figurative language, non literal, double it give it to the next personIdk if this is taken seriously but a second later it’s stated he had power to transcend time.
Doesn’t Jiren out scale Zamasu who has timeline level range?It's in the context of Hit's abilities. He doesn't possess some qualitative superiority to Time in general (which such a statement wouldn't be enough for anyway!)
In power, not rangeDoesn’t Jiren out scale Zamasu who has timeline level range?
I..What? My point was that using ToP clockwork as an antifeat, is stupid, because it is inconsistent even with the stats the wiki acceptsI never claimed that they did.
The thread had that option from the begining, now if it is an outlier was included laterAlso, if anyone wants to argue that Goku and company is immensurable, that should be done in another thread, this was originally made to change Hit power from TS, to TT.
100% agree.My funny money vote is on option 1, because 99.99% of immeasurable speed feats are outliers anyway
What simple doesn´t matter for the main purpose of the argument, lolI..What? My point was that using ToP clockwork as an antifeat, is stupid, because it is inconsistent even with the stats the wiki accepts
I mean, Hit literally does this in the fight, to KKx10 Goku.How is it an outlier if hit wouldn't even try it again, and we straight up see jiren MOVING in it, to the point of it becoming just useless, this implies no matter how much he would improve the technique, it wouldn't work.
What about the fact that, if I recall, Universe crossing for Angels (who are far beyond Goku) taking time has been used in several instances as a plot point, both directly and indirectly?100% agree.
DMC got immeasurable speed through translated guidebook statements for Argosax and if using the same logic that would be considered an outlier too because obviously linear time is still a thing everyone in the plot has to adhere to in all the games.
DBS has more explicit evidence for it and multiple future interactions with Hit where it is stated to be something Goku now scales well beyond.
I don't think overall time progression in plots is something that should negate immeasurable ratings by itself. Afterall it's tough to write narratives otherwise as mere humans lol.
You mean that one statement from Whis that is contradicted by the fact he later later has better on screen feats? And even characters who scale under him as well including Beerus in that very same arc.What about the fact that, if I recall, Universe crossing for Angels (who are far beyond Goku) taking time has been used in several instances as a plot point, both directly and indirectly?
Option 1 is not getting accepted, so this is a non-starter anyways but I will clarify my opinion and why I am against it.You mean that one statement from Whis that is contradicted by the fact he later later has better on screen feats? And even characters who scale under him as well including Beerus in that very same arc.
Goku was predicting yes, but we literally see him moving with hit while hit is skipping through time, thats literally immeasurable. But its argued to be outlier.Goku was countering Hit by predicting what he'd do in the skipped time, so does this really need to be any of these things? Wouldn't it just be some kind of Analytical Prediction?
Because Hit is going to the future, and obviously you are going to make movements in that timeframe.Goku was predicting yes, but we literally see him moving with hit while hit is skipping through time, thats literally immeasurable. But its argued to be outlier.
That's just a visual thing for clarity, because Hit's Time-Skip would make that not the case. And if Goku could move in Time-Skip to begin with, that'd make the ability completely pointless. It's just Analytical PredictionGoku was predicting yes, but we literally see him moving with hit while hit is skipping through time, thats literally immeasurable. But its argued to be outlier.
That analogy made no sense at all, since hit is skipping through time, goku would remain frozen to hit and would be unable to move since hes moving at immeasurable speeds, just via an ability and not speed, but since goku INTERCEPTED hit MID timeskip and counter him, that quite literally means goku was moving at immeasurable speeds to be able to do that, catching somebody lacking while they skip through time is as blatant as it can get.Because Hit is going to the future, and obviously you are going to make movements in that timeframe.
If I was walking down the street 10 meters away from the next curb, and you skipped through time for 5 seconds, you'd witness me walking these 10 meters normally. The difference is that Hit does that so fast that Goku is the only one who can do any detectable movement.
How is it just a visual thing, hit was clearly surprised that goku was even able to do something like that, when he previously couldn't before, and then when they fight again, goku literally says time skip just wont work anymore, no matter how much hit improved it, which adds consistency with what he did before.That's just a visual thing for clarity, because Hit's Time-Skip would make that not the case. And if Goku could move in Time-Skip to begin with, that'd make the ability completely pointless. It's just Analytical Prediction
Yes, he's surprised Goku was able to counter him by predicting like that. No one's done that before...How is it just a visual thing, hit was clearly surprised that goku was even able to do something like that, when he previously couldn't before, and then when they fight again, goku literally says time skip just wont work anymore, no matter how much hit improved it, which adds consistency with what he did before.
he later on upgraded his skip to be longer, when Goku used the Kaioken 10x he was able to intercept Hit Mid Skip, so, yes for the initial parts, but the kaioken parts kind of shows him going alongside Hit and his skipIt's not even immeasurable and we shouldn't even acknowledge as such even in the context of it being outlier. The time skip makes hit travel 0.1 seconds into the future and do whatever he wants in between these movements undetected. Goku moved to a predicted position in 0.1 seconds to block an attack, it's not immeasurable.
Allowing this to be accepted as immeasurable will open the floodgates for more people to claim consistency with other feats or arguments out of context.
There’s a difference between knowing an attack is coming. And actually being able to do something about it, Goku’s reaction speed would still need to scale.Goku was countering Hit by predicting what he'd do in the skipped time, so does this really need to be any of these things? Wouldn't it just be some kind of Analytical Prediction?
It doesn't "need" to do anything. We see how this is done in practice, via Goku making his movement before the Time-Skip happens. No need for any speed buffsThere’s a difference between knowing an attack is coming. And actually being able to do something about it, Goku’s reaction speed would still need to scale.