By the way, what is your opinion on this crt, we just need one more to pass, this would return Goku's resistance to time stop
One more? No, as Lephyr pointed out, we don't even have 1 valid staff vote currently.......i will make a summary of my view later today, then i guess lephyr can tag staff to finally finish this
That would be the plan, indeed
i made my summary, you can tag staff now
Not an umbrella term, but rather Time Skip originally is only skipping through time, however Hit start to develop more variations based on the ground which is the timeskip, like how a tree grow into multiple different branches but have the same root. Evident is that Vados said he skipping time, store though time he skipped to create pocket dimension, etc.....meaning all of his suppose new time-based abilities is actually still time skip based, just developed into different variations based on the root that is timeskip. So called them time skip ability isn't wrong. Goku himself even said he just advance his timeskip, which mean timeskip is the base and original ability, other abilities is just different branches of timeskip
I think is point is clear since in verse statements overwhelming the single toei office website statement. Goku himself even said he skip time when he first battle Hit, and while Goku is a goofy clueless guy, he is extremely reliable when it come to battle and identify his opponent abilities, his statements also get backed up.
I found the possibility of a time stop very funny, given that we have Toei's own website and Dragon Ball Super, as well as the episodes where he mentions that he stops time, i disagree with a time stop possibly, but rather a complete one, because that's what his ability does, he stops the time of his opponents.
but then.....why did Goku and Hit said that the Dimensional ability, also called "Time Skip" by Dyspo and Hit himself in the ToP are not Time Skip? unless you argue that they are talking about the "Skip" Time Skip, the one that is time travel, at that point Goku wouldn't receive resistance to Time Stop as only they would be mentioning only 1 specific variation
glad that we could agree on this point, Time Skiping being Time stopping by nature is very much contradicted yes, thank you
he actually never says anything about Time Stopping until after the U6 and U7 tournament, he just says "i advanced my time skip further" in the same manner as his earlier statements about it
yeah, Time Travel.....altho there is several seemingly contradictions to it
We literally have the website stating Time Skip for time stop, Hit mentioned that stop the time, hello, are you not seeing these things? The ability of Time Skip It is time stop
.....i did see these things, i acknowledged these things, i gave reasonings as to why they were contradicted, you seem to be the one who didn't saw my things.....as for some reason you are refusing to even acknowledge them
.....when have i said that something isn't cannon? the show itself just to happens to have higher priority in cannonicity than a Toei website
Hit can stop time, yes..........the one scene he says he can stop time is never cited not does it have any reason to be the Time Skip tho
literally when have i done that? hello?
it is better organized as i have different things to say to each individual point you bring u
.......are you serious right now? no, it is via the contradictions i brought up, like the several times Pre-Blue Kaioken Goku clearly moved during the Time Skip........among the other things.........did you even read my points at all?
no one is saying he doesn't have the ability to Stop Time, we are discussing if the Time Skip, the technique, specifically stops time
......wow, what a compelling argument, if i am so "wrong" than you wouldn't have a problem actually covering the point i brought up, yet you aren't, which is the truly weird thing in this whole ordeal
Hit can Stop Time =/= Time Skip is Time Stop, i have a whole list of contradictions to the notion that Time Skip is Time Stop listed above in my summary.....feel free to read them and prove them wrong
and the Website itself is not worth more than what the actual show shows, which as i showed, contradicts the notion of Time Stop for the Time Skip multiple times
he does have several Time abilities......not all of them are Time Skip tho
he can't "jump" to the future if Time is stopped, as the time isn't flowing, a "future" doesn't currently exists from his perspective for him to travel to
Why possibly? I agree with everything but the “possibly.” It’s objectively Time Stop in several instances, and objectively Time Travel in others (despite the contradictory nature and statements). So wouldn’t it make more sense to make it fully both and then note the inconsistency?So, Time Skip is said to be Time Stop by characters and some WoG statements, that much would indicate that he is stopping time when paired up with some scenes like these two......but it isn't that simple
Firstly Vados directly says otherwise about the Time Skip being time stop, saying that it is simply time travel instead, which is even more evidence when taking the original japanese translation into account, which would contradict the WoG statements regarding the nature of the Time Skip, and then there is scenes where Goku moves while Hit is performing the Time Skip, before he goes Kaioken and "surpasses it" such as this one where Goku is in a very specific position with his feet very close to Hit's face, the sound cue for Hit activating his Time Skip and then suddenly Goku is a very different position entirely, blocking off Hit's attack, we know for a fact he activated the Time Skip as Goku was attacking, therefore the only way for him to have moved to such a different position in reaction to Hit's attack, is if he moved mid Time Skip alongside Hit, if Hit was time stopping then Goku would somehow need to completely blitz Hit entirely to move so fast that he wouldn't noticed he was moving in the few moments after the Time Skip ends....which given the scale of both in the fights is impossible as Hit can keep up with Goku several times in the fight and another moment where Goku blatantly reacts to the attacks mid time skip even changing his battle stance in between, so the ability isn't Time Stop at all? well...
In this scene(can't find it subbed or in English for the life of me) as well as this one when we clearly see the Time Stoping effect on Goku, Hit says that he "advanced" his Time Skip, so some have suggested that "Time Skip" is simply an umbrella term for all of Hit's Time based abilities, which seems to be confirmed by Hit's fight with Dyspo in which both called his Dimensional ability "Time Skip", so all solved, both are different techniques on the umbrella term that is "Time Skip".....right? well no, first of all, this contradicts the after mentioned Vados statement, in which she spoke of the Time Skip as an specific ability that can't Time Stop, instead only Time Traveling, with the episode itself going against this umbrella notion as well, since the Dimensional ability said to be Time Skip in the Hit vs Dyspo is said in the second match between Goku and Hit to not be Time Skip at all, which was an important narrative aspect of the fight, also thinking logically this "umbrella" term is flawed, as if Hit "evolved" his Time Travel into Time Stop instead......,then Goku wouldn't have any answer to the Time Stop, as that one he never was shown resisting after the supposed point where it became time stop, making the statements of it not working on Goku baseless from Hit's perspective, thus even the "umbrella" term solution has major contradictions in it, so how do we solve this? simple, do both
My suggestion is to lable Time Skip as this:
Time Travel, possibly Time Stop (With his Time Skip Hit is able to travel through time up to 0.5 seconds to attack opponents, but the inconsistency of the technique regarding this also shows him stopping time instead) or something along these lines, with Goku resisting it being labeled as a "possibly resistance" to Time Stop and a note underneath in the profile explaining the inconsistencies of the Time Skip, this way we can cover this self contradicting ability on a fair angle for both contradictory depictions and finally move on from it
i made my summary, you can tag staff nowalso you can give an opinion on it while at it?
Very late now, will go to sleep shortly, good night everyone
no because........as you said, it is contradictory, it isn't a case where it is both at the same time, it is contradictory both while equally saying that it isn't both, in the same instance it says it is one there is equally an instance where it contradicta itself, it can't be both at the same time as the series screams at it being only one of them, so the "possibly" is the middle ground covering how it is somehow portrayed as both.....while saying that it isn't both, aka.....just the best option with the system we currently have on the wiki
There are legitimately like 4 different solid interpretations for what Hit is doing. I don't see how we'd call this a power scaling issue and not just a writing issue.
Then would it not be “Possibly Time Travel, Possibly Time Stop?”
I am not even sure if that is allowed
Yeah, but we also know that it can't be both as everytime it is used a contradiction to it being either happens
I Guess we just disagree on the front, if the series says it is either 1, but contradicts both options.....then idk what else could be put but that
See, that can't be as Vados says that it isn't Time Stop, she speaks of Time Skip as a specific techinique that only Time Travels, and we know it couldn't be Time Stop since if it is.......then his Dimensional ability's basis make no sense
What are you trying to say here?
Firstly, what proof is there of the Mob scene being Time Skip at all? Specially when it goes far more than 0.5 to short few seconds as we saw it was in theU6vU7 arc, is there literally anything saying that it is the Time Skip there?
This here is what I agree with. The series and stuff surrounding it (toei website and all) go to great lengths to portray both things, despite how contradictory both being true at the same time is. So we are forced to index it as both, it is what it is.
Yeah but at the same time, it also goes to lenght to say that.....it isn't both, while yeah it does say it is Time Stop and Time Travel.....it also as does as much to say that it isn't both, but just 1 of them, labeling as both at the same time is equally as wrong as labeling it as just one of them, at least, for the people that countered it at least
No? Time Skip would simply exist in the vein of something like Dead Zone for Toei. Objectively impossible to be canon, but objectively MUST be, thus we ignore/overlook the contradictions (as Toei does) and index as necessary. Similarly, we’d index it as what it is, objectively both, ignore (note) the contradictions at the bottom of page, and be on our merry way. I’d also like to note that you’ve provided no reason to force the Time Stop be uncertain compared to Time Travel, when you could easily list the Vice Versa (“Time Stop, Possibly Time Travel”), because they’re equally argued for and against based on series context, and equally right/wrong.
Dead Zone is in a unique placement
yeah....that is what i said, i just highlighted Time Stop because that was what people were talking about, both Time Travel and Time Stop are equally contradictory to one another in this context, meaning that it can't be both, it needs to be one of them, but it objectively can't be both at the same time given the statements and showings of it
Which is why i suggested "or" in my earliet answet to you
I didn't as people were responding to you. But now that pretty much everything is boiling down to "either/or, vote" I will. Gimme a bit.
But the logic is still applicable here.
But it also objectively needs to be both for the plot to work. So I feel like splitting the difference is our only reprieve.
But it can’t be one or the other. Justifying it as solely one or the other is equally wrong. Hence why the most valid option is indexing as both, and then noting the inconsistencies.
i don't see how, in the case of Dead Zone, the events chronologically make no sense happening when they do, but we do have a saga of it that states that they happened, in this case however, it is a constant back and forth saying "it is X" but it shows Y "X is a misunderstanding of what it does, it is Y" then it also shows X, it is a little bit more complex where we are said and shown contradictory statements about what it is rather than a single canon inconsistency purely for timeline purposes like Dead Zone is
then you see the contradiction, i needs to be either one at the same time as it needs to be both, handling with a "or" and "possibly either" is maybe the best way to handle this......since yeah, i see your point about it needing to be both, but equally, it paradoxically also CAN'T be both, it isn't a situation where one option is better than the other, both options need to be true at the same time, which is why it makes no goddamn sense at all, hence why addressing as such is the best way, it can be "TS or TT, Possibly both" there is no end conclusion that accurately displays it, we need a middle ground by necessity given the nature of the conflicting and contradictory nature of the ability
here is the thing, indexing them as being both at the same time is equally as wrong as indexing as just one of them, a middle ground is needed, which is why i think the option i gave fits best as it covers all possible angles of it that were given in the series itself
Omega. That IS the middle ground. On one end it must be Time Skip (Travel) and only Time Skip (Travel) in specific scenes. On the other end it must be Time Stop and only Time Stop in other specific scenes.
no because the series equally goes against it doing both, there are statements literally saying "it doesn't Time Stop at all, it Time Travels" labelling it as if it can do both of these at the same time is also equally against what the series directly tells us, the middle ground of both extremes in this case is acknowledging that it showed doing both, while also acknowledging the fact that the series says it isn't both/isn't one of them, aka listing as both while also saying how the series contradicts this notion, hence my option, since for the series to work it needs to be only 1 of them while also needing to be both, addressing is as inconsistent in the listing for it IS the best of every world and most sensible option, to list as if it does both at the same time is not better than just listing as only 1 of them, it is equally as wrong with what the series showed us
The series also says that “Time Skip is just Time Stop (Nothing else).” Over. And over. And over. Again, neither stands above the other. So this makes no sense. And thus makes…
…^ This make no sense.
again, as i said, equally wrong either way......like, are you reading my proposals at all? yeah, i agree that labeling it as just 1 of them is wrong, that is my entire point
which is my entire point, hence why i suggest listing it in a way that it is both, while equally acknowledging how the series shows and that it isn't both........like, i am not assigning 1 as being the "true one" i am assigning both while saying "the series says equally that it is either of them, while saying that it isn't the other at all" thus we label it as it being able to be either or just 1 of them at the same time, exactly as the series portrays it as
I get that, but making it “one of the other at a given time,” makes no sense. (Which while not what you’re saying on paper, is what it would be in practice for future threads.)
Except we see Hit utilize whichever he desires at any given moment. Freeze and Travel. He’s not flipping powers as if he’s Style Switching. It’s not an “or.” It’s legitimately just both powers at once (despite being inconsistent/contradictory). As Lep said, it’s simply how the cookie crumbles.
....what? i think you are misunderstanding what my proposal is, can you explain to me what you think i am proposing firstly so that i can get a grasp at what you are arguing against?
well, outside of moments we just don't have any reason to assume he is using Time Skip, like the Mob Boss scene, all the Times he seemingly "stopped" time with Time Skip are treated as the same technique that was said to not Stop Time at all, it isn't a case of "he can choose which hax his technique does" it is just shown to do one, shown and said to not do that one but another, then shown this another while also showing the earlier example, all at the same time, no explanation, both being treated as him doing the exact same thing with no differences
I edited my previous post to account for that—I wasn’t saying that was what you’re proposing, but that your proposal would result in this. As to what I believe you’re proposing:
The Mob Boss moment has no reason not to be Time Skip. It has the same visual cues, the same sound cues, etc. The only difference is when they talk the Dimension is white, but the Dimension is also white when he Time Skips in the ToP, (and is outright called Time Skip when he does so), so that still visually matches. It’s Time Skip. To say otherwise is basically just an argument from incredulity, not any legitimate logic or reason. But that’s not just it, either. There’s Toei’s statements, how the ability was explained in U6vU7, etc.
huh, your wording is still weird when i read the previous post, can you explain again?
oh yeah, that is how the series treats it with them, specially Vados' statement and the situations around it
it has NO reason for it to be the Time Skip, the effect and sound is the same as when Hit uses his Dimenioal ability......which is very explicitly noted to NOT be his Time Skip by both him and Goku.......
.......while also said to be the Time Skip in the ToP, even when it was said to not be the Time Skip at all in the moment it was introduced, aka, this point is, again, relying in a in nature contradictory statements, which contradict one another
the time limit of it? which is not even a second for time skip yet several for the Mob Scene? the Fact that in the same arc Vados talks of how Time Skip just doesn't do what this ability Hit uses against the Mob Boss does? like, yeah, it has the same visual cues as all of Hit's abilities.......but that doesn't matter when even abilities established to not be the Time Skip still use the same effect, unless of course you want to argue they all are the Time Skip, but i already went in length to explain how that notion is also equally contradicting as anything regarding this ability to begin with
in which the same arc also completely contradicted this usage by having Goku blatantly since the beginning several times when Hit used it against him............now you are starting to sound like you want to make it be Time Stop, while ignoring how the series yes says it is, also says blatantly that it isn't and people thinking it is in verse is an in verse misconception, like..........it doesn't even sound like you think there is any contradictions, which makes you earlier statements weird
not really because it is just 1 power, if it is Time Stop, his Dimensional ability makes no sense, the series says it is only 1 thing, and the series shows it being only being 1 thing, the Toei statements for example would make it only be Time Stop, which is equally contradicted by Vados stating otherwise, and that Time Stop isn't part of the ability at all, which we know must be true for his Dimensional Ability to work, but then we have other instances and all that, simply put, if we index it as being equally both at the same time while ignoring all the contradictions that creates.......well that is just unacurate to what the series is portraying, plus it makes a headache to decide what ones that overpower it should even gain, as what is needed to counter 1 of those doesn't work to counter the other, specially when Hit uses the same Time Skip that clearly doesn't stop Time at all against Goku when he first uses 10x Kaioken, like, by showings at that moments it shouldn't stop time, then what do we give him? this is just an example question, no need to answer it btw
except it isn't, we quite literally see the opposite of it since the very beginning of the second fight he was shown using it
Vados one statement (and Whis) don’t overwrite everything else. They simply stand evenly.
Which is part of the point I’m making. They’re treated in a way where they’re mutually exclusive statement wise, but feat wise they’re interchangeable, and status wise we know they’re meant to be the same.
The Mob Boss scene doesn’t have a stated amount of time used in verse, so I dunno what you mean here. Hit’s Time Skip also flat out increases in length as he improves his technique, so it’s not an inconsistency (as the amount of time it uses isn’t stated after U6VU7).
Which is contradicted later. That’s the point. Her testimony is equal. Thus you can’t use it to overwrite anything else. It just must also be simultaneously true with contradictory, but also true, statements. That’s all.
Which is why the result of saying “one of the other” makes no sense, because they’re all supposed to be the same thing, as we’ve BOTH noted. (There’s no on screen distinction between Hit’s freezes and travels in U7 V U6 or ToP, they’re treated the same despite being totally different). It’s objectively both, despite the contradictory statements. So index it as that exactly. It does fully both, no “or,” and write on the note: “The inconsistency of Dragon Ball Super has lead to this conclusion due to the various statements, feats, etc. of Time Skip.”
No, I’m trying to say that there ARE contradictions. That is what the NOTE IS FOR. EXPLAINING THEM. Noting how we’re ignoring them because they create logical impossibilities/incompatibility, and index it as it is based on the information we have whilst discounting what we know is wrong. (Which in itself is the mutually exclusive statements, because they ARE A CONTRADICTION.)
