Dragon ball intelligence rework

[omegabronic]

Aren’t similar feats used to justify Sonic’s extraordinary genius rating

Nah, just for overall inteligence, the things giving him EG are other stuff, those which you are refering were used for his "genius" rating upgrade

I am not saying it isn't a good feat, i am saying that it isn't EG, it can certainly still be used to put in the profile to support his overall inteligence.....i just don't want people thinking it is a EG feat

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I agree with Genius for Grampa Gohan, but I'm unsure on Goku getting extraordinary genius. Our line for intelligence combat wise (Extraordinary Genius) is finicky.

Gotta remember that some fighters just don't have the patience or fortitude to pull something off. While the Gods are really old, they could have just given up on attempting to achieve UI and focused on other things, we know they don't spend all their days training. Goku is just suppose to be that guy, a Saiyan, someone who surpasses expectations and limits. So while getting praise from the gods on achieving UI, I wouldn't say that's a solid justification as there are more factors than simply intelligence at play here. I don't think the other feats reach Extraordinary Genius either, high level of precision and and analytical prediction that a high level fighter like Goku can achieve but wouldn't break him past the Genius barrier.

Best I can say for Goku is Genius. I think possibly Extraordinary Genius could potentially work but I'm not sure.

 

[Killerdrone123]

I agree with Genius for Grampa Gohan, but I'm unsure on Goku getting extraordinary genius. Our line for intelligence combat wise (Extraordinary Genius) is finicky.

Gotta remember that some fighters just don't have the patience or fortitude to pull something off. While the Gods are really old, they could have just given up on attempting to achieve UI and focused on other things, we know they don't spend all their days training. Goku is just suppose to be that guy, a Saiyan, someone who surpasses expectations and limits. So while getting praise from the gods on achieving UI, I wouldn't say that's a solid justification as there are more factors than simply intelligence at play here. I don't think the other feats reach Extraordinary Genius either, high level of precision and and analytical prediction that a high level fighter like Goku can achieve but wouldn't break him past the Genius barrier.

Best I can say for Goku is Genius. I think possibly Extraordinary Genius could potentially work but I'm not sure.

So should I note you down for possibly rating for EG

 

[LordGriffin1000]

So should I note you down for possibly rating for EG

You can.

 

[Hasty12345]

The bar for EG combat intelligence seems incredibly low compared to general or overall EG rating, are there any threads that have attempted to formalise combat intelligence standards at all?

 

[RoninSlayer200]

The bar for EG combat intelligence seems incredibly low compared to general or overall EG rating, are there any threads that have attempted to formalise combat intelligence standards at all?

we lowkey need a combat version of intelligence page

 

[LordGriffin1000]

The bar for EG combat intelligence seems incredibly low compared to general or overall EG rating, are there any threads that have attempted to formalise combat intelligence standards at all?

Not that I know of.

 

[Hasty12345]

we lowkey need a combat version of intelligence page

I think we do as well, because I’m personally not seeing how these feats are comparable in intellect to the general requirements for EG which are insanely high.

If the bar for EG in combat is much lower then I can get behind this thread, but I can’t see how by any metric Goku and Batman are comparable in intelligence in any fashion, or any other “typical” EG tiered characters.

 

[SamanPatou]

I disagree with EG, Grandpa Gohan is undoubtedly genius-worthy, but even accounting the others, it should stop there. Goku is indeed a prodigy, but predicting Hit's time skip is sort of akin to predicting teleportation or other forms of rapid movement, it's still about predicting incoming attacks, just delivered in a more difficult manner.
The GoD's are a lazy bunch and they've spent millions of years wallowing in nothingness content with their strength which puts them above anyone else, it's not like they went through a continous life of training and battle. Unlocking UI is indeed impressive, but in itself it's also tied to supernatural factors difficult to weigh in, making it akin to SS, Kaioken, Ki Sensing, Spirit Fission etc.. that no one or very few individuals have managed to reach.

I'd also be very careful with using Cell as a benchmark, he has indeed accumulated skill and techniques, but it's more about repertoire than an absolute sum of experience, ingenuity etc.., so not a composite metamoran/potara fusion-like. Cell himself doesn't have a complete idea of what he can do, as implied by the reference to the genkidama, which he simply theorize to be able of doing, instead of having proper knowledge.

 

[Killerdrone123]

I disagree with EG, Grandpa Gohan is undoubtedly genius-worthy, but even accounting the others, it should stop there. Goku is indeed a prodigy, but predicting Hit's time skip is sort of akin to predicting teleportation or other forms of rapid movement, it's still about predicting incoming attacks, just delivered in a more difficult manner.
The GoD's are a lazy bunch and they've spent millions of years wallowing in nothingness content with their strength which puts them above anyone else, it's not like they went through a continous life of training and battle. Unlocking UI is indeed impressive, but in itself it's also tied to supernatural factors difficult to weigh in, making it akin to SS, Kaioken, Ki Sensing, Spirit Fission etc.. that no one or very few individuals have managed to reach.

No only beerus and champa where said to be lazy what do you mean by no training they literally got g.o.d energy by training itself and they have also tried to achieve ui to not to mention beerus in manga was said to use sort of ui against his fight with the destroyers meaning in manga atleast he was trying to perfect it and Goku just adapted to ui in manga in just short frame of time

 

[omegabronic]

No only beerus and champa where said to be lazy what do you mean by no training they literally got g.o.d energy by training itself and they have also tried to achieve ui to not to mention beerus in manga was said to use sort of ui against his fight with the destroyers meaning in manga atleast he was trying to perfect it and Goku just adapted to ui in manga in just short frame of time

Doesn't Beerus says in the manga that UI is "against GoD nature" or something like that? remember it being a plot point for vegeta getting Ultra Ego

 

[Killerdrone123]

Doesn't Beerus says in the manga that UI is "against GoD nature" or something like that? remember it being a plot point for vegeta getting Ultra Ego

iirc he said that destroyers always think about destruction so they can't have a calm mind doesn't change the fact that he still tried to perfect ui not to mention Goku further developed his ui to a level that he can somewhat maintain it even while using his emotions tui

 

[SamanPatou]

I never said the never trained, they reached the status of GoD tens of millions of years and stopped there, if not for brief exceptions. Beerus sleeps for hundreds if not thousands of years, eats, blows up some shit and goes asleep again. Champa is stated to be even more lackluster than him, in the manga we see Belmod goofing around in his free time, Sidra is a literal incompetent and of the others we know nothing besides them underperforming against Beerus in the manga.
They only lack worthy opponent and probably barely look out for any since besides Jiren they are leagues above any mortal, even Belmod was the only one known to having taken a trainee.

They sure as hell aren't the types of going through rigorous and evergoing training or battling.

 

[Killerdrone123]

I never said the never trained, they reached the status of GoD tens of millions of years and stopped there, if not for brief exceptions. Beerus sleeps for hundreds if not thousands of years, eats, blows up some shit and goes asleep again. Champa is stated to be even more lackluster than him, in the manga we see Belmod goofing around in his free time, Sidra is a literal incompetent and of the others we know nothing besides them underperforming against Beerus in the manga.
They only lack worthy opponent and probably barely look out for any since besides Jiren they are leagues above any mortal, even Belmod was the only one known to having taken a trainee.

They sure as hell aren't the types of going through rigorous and evergoing training or battling.

Like I said beerus used a form of ui against destroyers it means he was pursuing it not to mention the fact he would still have considerably more time than what Goku had again ui was stated to be unachievable by mortal standards as it is a divine technique yet Goku still managed to attain it in just 45 minutes

 

[omegabronic]

iirc he said that destroyers always think about destruction so they can't have a calm mind doesn't change the fact that he still tried to perfect ui not to mention Goku further developed his ui to a level that he can somewhat maintain it even while using his emotions tui

well, then them not mastering it would be a matter of their nature making it extra difficult for them, at least for the manga

 

[Killerdrone123]

well, then them not mastering it would be a matter of their nature making it extra difficult for them, at least for the manga

Eh since Goku was able to make a version of ui that can use emotions in it which could be done by destroyers to again ui is something that is deemed impossible for mortals

 

[omegabronic]

Eh since Goku was able to make a version of ui that can use emotions in it which could be done by destroyers

well, that is he relying on a non mastered, weaker ultra instinct, so.....while i see what you are talking about, the nature of a saiyan wanting to feel the emotion of the fight vs a god of destruction who only thinks of destruction seems difficult to compare

to again ui is something that is deemed impossible for mortals

yeah, not denying that part, just that a GoD's nature makes it inherently more difficult for them to achieve it, so that has to be taken into account

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Agreed


This seems like a genius feat


Hit was only jumping 0.1 seconds into the future, once he evolved to jump 0.5 seconds instead Goku was helpless

Dunno if this changes much, still seems like only a "genius" rating given the short ammount of actions and timeframe he is predicting




In combat? Wouldn't it be in training? Altho, he achieved via combat, oh i know, we can add this to his AD under "abilities" i guess......now i guess this would count for "above upper human's inteligence" limit to get EG, so overall i agree, just not on the former 2 feats being EG

Stomping the collapse of the universe with skill is just “genius”?

And when hit used his technique Goku adapted twice. Reacting to anything from the the literal future requires beyond genius intelligence

 

[omegabronic]

Stomping the collapse of the universe with skill is just “genius”?

i mean.....yeah, the way he did that was by matching Beerus' blow with the same force at just the right angle, which is very good skill feat

And when hit used his technique Goku adapted twice.

only once, that is the initial time skip and.....more or less the 0.2 seconds one, from the 0.5 one onwards he was completely incapable of doing anything against it whatsoever, that is until he used the Kaioken, but currently we accept that as a resistance to time skip + Immeasurable speed outlier rather than skill

Reacting to anything from the the literal future requires beyond genius intelligence

says....who? it depends on the level of said "future" you are predicting, because basic level Analytical Prediction is just predicting the future, and that isn't genius, specially when done with merely 0.1/.2 seconds into the future, not even predicting a full seconds into the future and still having problems with it is.......really not as impressive as you making it out to be

 

[ChoursDropoff]

i mean.....yeah, the way he did that was by matching Beerus' blow with the same force at just the right angle, which is very good skill feat


only once, that is the initial time skip and.....more or less the 0.2 seconds one, from the 0.5 one onwards he was completely incapable of doing anything against it whatsoever, that is until he used the Kaioken, but currently we accept that as a resistance to time skip + Immeasurable speed outlier rather than skill

Even then it would still need to scale to his skill. I saw someone say it’s was akin to teleportation which is incredibly wrong. Attacking from any point in the future and getting telegraphed would need a level of intuition that no “genius” would have. Even if it’s only 0.1 seconds which is a lot of time considering how fast DB characters move.

says....who? it depends on the level of said "future" you are predicting, because basic level Analytical Prediction is just predicting the future, and that isn't genius, specially when done with merely 0.1/.2 seconds into the future, not even predicting a full seconds into the future and still having problems with it is.......really not as impressive as you making it out to be

Imagine your fighting someone of relative skill. But they can see into the future the fight fight would be heavily in their favor. Now I’m hits case they take it a literal step further. As he’s physically going to the future so he can reposition himself in the most advantageous position. This for anyone with “basic analytical perception” would be a unwinable fight as the dude will always be one step ahead of you in the most literal way.

Another good example of Goku’s skill is him being able to fight Broly after he adapted to ssj god Vegeta. Which is a beyond fusion level increase. That’s the equivalent of Namek saga goku fighting someone stronger then super Vegito with pure skill.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

On second thought, I agree with Griffin, so switch me to possibly agree for Extraordinary Genius. I'd be open to a formal revision of the combat intelligence standards, but of course, that's for another thread.

 

[omegabronic]

Even then it would still need to scale to his skill. I saw someone say it’s was akin to teleportation which is incredibly wrong. Attacking from any point in the future and getting telegraphed would need a level of intuition that no “genius” would have.

again, says who? Again, foreseeing what someone will do in 0.2 seconds into the future is not something any genius char can't do, are you just not aware of what analitical prediction is?

Hit doesn't attack from the future, he time travels to attack the oponent of guard while also Time Stopping, there is no skill for the time stop part, he needs resistance + he was so overwelminly faster and stronger than Hit in everyway that by the point he resisted Hit's hax it was clean, when he couldn't resist he was continuously geting beaten down

Even if it’s only 0.1 seconds which is a lot of time considering how fast DB characters move.

exept the story treats as just 0.1 seconds and all Goku does to counter it in block 1 blow each time, when it goes beyond Hit doing a singular blow Goku was helpless until he used Kaioken to get resistamce to Hit's stuff

Imagine your fighting someone of relative skill.

Hit is relative to Goku in skill.......why exactly?

But they can see into the future the fight fight would be heavily in their favor.

exept Hit's is not that at all in anyway

Now I’m hits case they take it a literal step further. As he’s physically going to the future so he can reposition himself in the most advantageous position. This for anyone with “basic analytical perception” would be a unwinable fight as the dude will always be one step ahead of you in the most literal way.

no, as one with analytical prediction will be able to....well, predict where Hit will attack next, predicting the future is the most basic requirement for analytical prediction, it isn't "advanced" in any "beyond the upper human limits" way

Another good example of Goku’s skill is him being able to fight Broly after he adapted to ssj god Vegeta. Which is a beyond fusion level increase. That’s the equivalent of Namek saga goku fighting someone stronger then super Vegito with pure skill.

No, that is purely an outlier, there is no skill that would allow him to survive, much less dodge, the attacks of someone quite literally millions of times stronger than him, he wouldn't have time to even think, much less dodge

 

[RanHover60]

Wasn’t there a guy in DB who was a 30th degree black belt when usually it only goes up to 10 or sumn?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Wasn’t there a guy in DB who was a 30th degree black belt when usually it only goes up to 10 or sumn?

Yeah, that was Wolfman and Roshi outright calls him fodder while simultaneously not denying his skill.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

again, says who? Again, foreseeing what someone will do in 0.2 seconds into the future is not something any genius char can't do, are you just not aware of what analitical prediction is?

Okay then name the genius character in question. I think you’re misunderstanding analytical skills for straight up precognition. Even going down the wiki’s definition they don’t even agree basic analytical perception can allow you to predict things yet to happen that’s relegated to the level of actual precognition which Goku can replicate through skill.

Hit doesn't attack from the future, he time travels to attack the oponent of guard while also Time Stopping, there is no skill for the time stop part, he needs resistance + he was so overwelminly faster and stronger than Hit in everyway that by the point he resisted Hit's hax it was clean, when he couldn't resist he was continuously geting beaten down

No this part is straight up untrue he literally does attack from the future. From his perspective the world has frozen it’s a side effect of the ability not the main function.

exept the story treats as just 0.1 seconds and all Goku does to counter it in block 1 blow each time, when it goes beyond Hit doing a singular blow Goku was helpless until he used Kaioken to get resistamce to Hit's stuff

Idk why you keep banking on the “he was helpless” point you already seem to agree that Goku is predicting attacks from the future. And Goku literally verbatim stated that time skip won’t work on him anymore even though he can improve it. Which literally can only imply one of two things.

One Goku is soo skill it doesn’t matter how much time he skips into the future which is the main function of the hax.

Or two immeasurable speed was not an outlier.

Hit is relative to Goku in skill.......why exactly

exept Hit's is not that at all in anyway

I was speaking hypothetically with the precognition example.

no, as one with analytical prediction will be able to....well, predict where Hit will attack next, predicting the future is the most basic requirement for analytical prediction, it isn't "advanced" in any "beyond the upper human limits" way

Literally literally not even a requirement lol IT’s described as just being able to notice small details in a fight or plan ahead with prep.

No, that is purely an outlier, there is no skill that would allow him to survive, much less dodge, the attacks of someone quite literally millions of times stronger than him, he wouldn't have time to even think, much less dodge

He literally preform the feat on screen for multiple minutes on or 1/3 the movies length how is this an outlier?

Is the entire movie an outlier now lol? This is literally the same thing he did with kefla who could one shot him and caulifla who was in ssj2 with a 100x multiplier on him.

 

[RanHover60]

Yeah thinking more about this, I’m starting to lean more to disagreeing except maybe for manga Goku. Even though there isn’t a concrete definition of extraordinary combat intelligence on the wiki yet, using the actual extraordinary intelligence explanation for reference we have a rough idea of the bar that’s set.

Extraordinary Genius: Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields of science and who vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits. (Ignore the science part)

• For the latter bolded part, I think some feats and statements of skill do surpass human limits such as Grandpa Gohan being unrivalled in all martial arts and Wolfman being a 30th degree black belt which shouldn’t be possible in real life.
• The problem is the former bolded part which talks about being beyond human limits in Multiple fields. While I do think Goku’s fighting skill are on the extraordinary genius level, you need to factor in other aspects of combat such as marksmanship/accuracy, the ability to come up with execute complex strategies on the fly along with your analytical skills, none of which Goku has really demonstrated beyond the genius level.

Because of this, I don’t think Goku really qualifies for extraordinary combat intelligence.

TLDR. Goku has insane fighting skills but nothing else beyond the genius level.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Personally, I can never understand how Extraordinary Genius or Super Genius ever worked for characters who get those ratings via per combat strategists and martial arts knowledge. It's difficult to even get Genius level intellect let alone the parts between that and Nigh-Omniscience. And Genius level combat intelligence comes from basically being expert pseudo scientists such as being able to tell someone's next 100 martial arts techniques just from reading someone's breath patterns. I know plenty of other verses have those ratings for reasons arguably weaker than the proposals here, but I will just answer that by saying a multitude of wrongs do not make a right.

Honestly, I am leaning towards disagree, but I think the proposals are good elaborate depths to justify genius level combat intelligence.

 

[omegabronic]

Okay then name the genius character in question. I think you’re misunderstanding analytical skills for straight up precognition. Even going down the wiki’s definition they don’t even agree basic analytical perception can allow you to predict things yet to happen that’s relegated to the level of actual precognition which Goku can replicate through skill.

Yes it does, analytical prediction is predicting the future actions of your oponent, Goku is not doing anything near Divination, he is simply guessing what Hit will do next in the spam of 0.1 seconds into the future, it is unreliable to "look far ahead" into the future yes........exept, that isn't ehat Goku is doing, he is purely doing the basic "analyze and predict what ge will do next" prediction, which btw, he was only able to do purely because he saw how Hit moves when he fought Vegeta, again, he didn't do anything overly crazy, he just did an analytical prediction, that's all, he didn't perfectly saw far away into the future

"Analytical Prediction, in which a user predicts the actions of others, as well as their consequences, through analysis of the factors involved. "

No this part is straight up untrue he literally does attack from the future.

Nope, he time travel to the future, that is quite literally said to be what he does

From his perspective the world has frozen it’s a side effect of the ability not the main function.

No, those 2 are contradictory displays that we choose to ignore in favot of being able to list the thing, it isn't a sub ability, it is the same ability, no matter how much the show tells us differently, that is how it is portrayed, we had like, 3 threads discussing how confusing and contradictory it is, can we not start that again?

Point is, Hit is said to travel through time, he attacks when he comes back and arrives in the future, that is verbatim said to be what he does

Idk why you keep banking on the “he was helpless” point you already seem to agree that Goku is predicting attacks from the future.

have you saw the fight? Once Hit evolved to 0.5 times Goku was completely helpless until he used Kaioken to blitz Hit

And no, Hit time travels, Goku is predicting his next attack, that is what i agreed with

And Goku literally verbatim stated that time skip won’t work on him anymore even though he can improve it. Which literally can only imply one of two things.

He has reaistance to it, as we currently accept

There is no skill. It is a simple Hax resistance

One Goku is soo skill it doesn’t matter how much time he skips into the future which is the main function of the hax.

Which is impossible because of the Time Stop, which is the main function, while also being said to not be a thing, only to be also said be the only thing it does......see the problem? Unless you make yet another thread to change it, we accept both time stop and time travel to be the main ability of the time skip at the same time, you can't say one is the "main one" in this site until you change what we accepted for it

Or two immeasurable speed was not an outlier.

Good luck with that

I was speaking hypothetically with the precognition example.

......i don't understand the example then, since it doesn't have anything to do to what either Goku not Hit did during the fight

Literally literally not even a requirement lol IT’s described as just being able to notice small details in a fight or plan ahead with prep.

predicting your oponent's future actions is a requirement of Analytical prediction yes......you denying it will not make what is written in the page change

He literally preform the feat on screen for multiple minutes on or 1/3 the movies length how is this an outlier?

Goku = Vegeta, SSJB Vegeta = SSJB Goku, Ikari Broly can survive and somewhat react to the attacks of SSJB Goku, SSJB = 8 Million x multiplier, so Ikari Broly = 8 Million x Base Goku

It is an outlier, him doing for a while in the movie doesn't change the circular scalling, heck even if you don't want to count the SSJB scalling to Broly, the SSJG scalling is undeniable, and that is still hundreds of thousands. Higher than Goku

Is the entire movie an outlier now lol? This is literally the same thing he did with kefla who could one shot him and caulifla who was in ssj2 with a 100x multiplier on him.

Against her he was innitially caught of guard, hence why he was innitially blitzed, when he started taking things seriously he was able to react somewhat and block her attacks, altho he was weaker, all that proves is that SSJG Goku is somewhat inferior to her, altho not by a big margin, plus the entire fight she was testing her power and not going all out, so it isn't a good example

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Yeah thinking more about this, I’m starting to lean more to disagreeing except maybe for manga Goku. Even though there isn’t a concrete definition of extraordinary combat intelligence on the wiki yet, using the actual extraordinary intelligence explanation for reference we have a rough idea of the bar that’s set.

Extraordinary Genius: Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields of science and who vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits. (Ignore the science part)

• For the latter bolded part, I think some feats and statements of skill do surpass human limits such as Grandpa Gohan being unrivalled in all martial arts and Wolfman being a 30th degree black belt which shouldn’t be possible in real life.
• The problem is the former bolded part which talks about being beyond human limits in Multiple fields. While I do think Goku’s fighting skill are on the extraordinary genius level, you need to factor in other aspects of combat such as marksmanship/accuracy, the ability to come up with execute complex strategies on the fly along with your analytical skills, none of which Goku has really demonstrated beyond the genius level.

Because of this, I don’t think Goku really qualifies for extraordinary combat intelligence.

TLDR. Goku has insane fighting skills but nothing else beyond the genius level.

Yeah thinking more about this, I’m starting to lean more to disagreeing except maybe for manga Goku. Even though there isn’t a concrete definition of extraordinary combat intelligence on the wiki yet, using the actual extraordinary intelligence explanation for reference we have a rough idea of the bar that’s set.

Extraordinary Genius: Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields of science and who vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits. (Ignore the science part)

• For the latter bolded part, I think some feats and statements of skill do surpass human limits such as Grandpa Gohan being unrivalled in all martial arts and Wolfman being a 30th degree black belt which shouldn’t be possible in real life.
• The problem is the former bolded part which talks about being beyond human limits in Multiple fields. While I do think Goku’s fighting skill are on the extraordinary genius level, you need to factor in other aspects of combat such as marksmanship/accuracy, the ability to come up with execute complex strategies on the fly along with your analytical skills, none of which Goku has really demonstrated beyond the genius level.

Because of this, I don’t think Goku really qualifies for extraordinary combat intelligence.

TLDR. Goku has insane fighting skills but nothing else beyond the genius level.

goku can already adapt to people who are experts in that lose fields Granolah was a expert marksman who has literally X-Ray vision that can pinpoint vital from miles away. And find physiological weaknesses in a fighter and he got out matched by Goku. And he can use weaponry like the power pole to a expert level