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Hit's Time Skip: A final explanation.

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RedReaper616 said:
I feel like we’re just going to have to agree to disagree, because I don’t see how treating them as mutually exclusive when they’re used simultaneously and interchangeably makes more sense than simply treating them as simultaneous and interchangeable.
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except every time they are used, it is either 1 or the other, it quite literally can't be doing both at the same time else all the times it is used makes no sense

RedReaper616 said:
Vados one statement (and Whis) don’t overwrite everything else. They simply stand evenly.
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.......that's the point, so you can't ignore it either

RedReaper616 said:
Which is part of the point I’m making. They’re treated in a way where they’re mutually exclusive statement wise, but feat wise they’re interchangeable, and status wise we know they’re meant to be the same.
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no, feat wise they are also mutually exclusive, must i remind you of Goku clearly moving during it in the very first arc the move is ever used and introduced?

RedReaper616 said:
The Mob Boss scene doesn’t have a stated amount of time used in verse, so I dunno what you mean here.
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they literally stand around and have time to have a whole conversation, 0.5 seconds is not enough time for that, you would really need make a big stretch to say they are only standing for fractions of seconds, specially for the Mob Boss' perspective

RedReaper616 said:
Hit’s Time Skip also flat out increases in length as he improves his technique, so it’s not an inconsistency (as the amount of time it uses isn’t stated after U6VU7).
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that is a fair point......that is, if we assume that the thing used is the Time Skip in that scene, even tho all of his techniques, even the ones hard confirmed to not be the Time Skip have that effect as well

RedReaper616 said:
Which is contradicted later. That’s the point. Her testimony is equal. Thus you can’t use it to overwrite anything else. It just must also be simultaneously true with contradictory, but also true, statements. That’s all.
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that would only be contradictory to that scene if you can prove that he is using the Time Skip in said scene, for the other moments where he stops time? sure, this one? nah, this one has nothing on being a Time Skip moment, use literally any other moment where he stops time confirmed with the Time Skip and no problem, this one has 0 reasons to be one of those times

RedReaper616 said:
Which is why the result of saying “one of the other” makes no sense, because they’re all supposed to be the same thing, as we’ve BOTH noted. (There’s no on screen distinction between Hit’s freezes and travels in U7 V U6 or ToP, they’re treated the same despite being totally different). It’s objectively both, despite the contradictory statements.
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except that he very clearly isn't stopping time in several scenes, and the logical problem with stopping time while also going to the future that i pointed out some posts ago, if the time flow is stopped, "time" is stuck at the present, there wouldn't be a future for him to travel to at all, it being both at the same time just.....breaks the logic even more

RedReaper616 said:
So index it as that exactly. It does fully both, no “or,” and write on the note: “The inconsistency of Dragon Ball Super has lead to this conclusion due to the various statements, feats, etc. of Time Skip.”
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except that by mere logic and showings it CAN'T DO BOTH, it is logically impossible for it to do both unless you just ignore all uses of it we ever had

RedReaper616 said:
No, I’m trying to say that there ARE contradictions. That is what the NOTE IS FOR. EXPLAINING THEM. Noting how we’re ignoring them because they create logical impossibilities/incompatibility,
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if you ignore the statements then........you would need to ignore Vados' "he is time traveling" statement......which creates a whole lot of other problems regarding the thing

RedReaper616 said:
and index it as it is based on the information we have whilst discounting what we know is wrong. (Which in itself is the mutually exclusive statements, because they ARE A CONTRADICTION.)
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except that considering it both is EQUALLY A CONTRADICTION, a big logical impossibility at that
 
omegabronic said:
except that by mere logic and showings it CAN'T DO BOTH, it is logically impossible for it to do both unless you just ignore all uses of it we ever had
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This and the prior paragraph are injecting Headcanon logic into the series. More particularly, Headcanon logic that doesn’t make sense. When you freeze time, the future doesn’t cease to be. Moreover, we have literal machines dedicated to traveling across timelines, while Hit was operating on his constant assassinations, but also, literally exist separately from the present moment.
omegabronic said:
if you ignore the statements then........you would need to ignore Vados' "he is time traveling" statement......which creates a whole lot of other problems regarding the thing
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No? We’re ignoring the information that directly conflicts/directly shown to be wrong. So we accept it’s Time Travel (it has to be), but we ignore the conflicting data, (it’s mutually exclusive to Time Stop.)
omegabronic said:
except that considering it both is EQUALLY A CONTRADICTION, a big logical impossibility at that
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By your logic we shouldn’t index anything on this ability, honestly. Because the whole point is we note the inconsistency to point out we’re ignoring them (ie outliers or incompatible data) to get a more accurate showing. But it’s entirely inconsistent at the root. If we hyper focused on every inconsistency and didn’t try to reconcile it in some way, he simply wouldn’t have this Time-Based Ability at all and we’d just kill the concept dead with a note saying: “We tried, but the authors suck.”
 
RedReaper616 said:
This and the prior paragraph are injecting Headcanon logic into the series. More particularly, Headcanon logic that doesn’t make sense. When you freeze time, the future doesn’t cease to be.
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technicality speaking, it is not "ceasing to be" it just stops from arriving for however long the time stop lasts, that is the whole reason time stops stop things, only the "now" exists paralyzed, making the "later" not happen, and since it doesn't happen, it isn't there, it isn't headcanon, it is the basic logic of how time flows and all that, why do you think Hit time traveling to the future doesn't create new timelines? because he is going to the future, he isn't changing history since he is not arriving at a period that happened yet, thus not changing anything, that is how time works

RedReaper616 said:
Moreover, we have literal machines dedicated to traveling across timelines, while Hit was operating on his constant assassinations, but also, literally exist separately from the present moment
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we don't have anything saying that the Time Travels happen at the same time as Hit using his time skips, i don't even know why you would be using this as a counter when it realies on information we don't know and that we can't really prove

RedReaper616 said:
No? We’re ignoring the information that directly conflicts/directly shown to be wrong. So we accept it’s Time Travel (it has to be), but we ignore the conflicting data, (it’s mutually exclusive to Time Stop.)
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in this case being time stop at all is also directly shown to be wrong given that Goku moved during it multiples times, i has to not be time stop for those scenes, including how he dealed with it in the first place, to make sense, the conflicting data is equally the fact that it is both at the same time as it also conflicts just as much as it being both at the same time, your suggestion is equally "conflicting data" as what you are saying is conflicting

RedReaper616 said:
By your logic we shouldn’t index anything on this ability, honestly. Because the whole point is we note the inconsistency to point out we’re ignoring them (ie outliers or incompatible data) to get a more accurate showing. But it’s entirely inconsistent at the root. If we hyper focused on every inconsistency and didn’t try to reconcile it in some way, he simply wouldn’t have this Time-Based Ability at all and we’d just kill the concept dead with a note saying: “We tried, but the authors suck.”
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you do realize i gave an option on how to completely deal with said inconsistencies right? you can't say that by my logic we just shouldn't index it if i gave it a way to index it while covering everything, in my view that is, you did gave reasons as to why it would be accurate, which i don't agree with........but then you gave a "solution" that is............equally as inaccurate as what we did before and currently in the profile
 
omegabronic said:
technicality speaking, it is not "ceasing to be" it just stops from arriving for however long the time stop lasts, that is the whole reason time stops stop things, only the "now" exists paralyzed, making the "later" not happen, and since it doesn't happen, it isn't there, it isn't headcanon, it is the basic logic of how time flows and all that, why do you think Hit time traveling to the future doesn't create new timelines? because he is going to the future, he isn't changing history since he is not arriving at a period that happened yet, thus not changing anything, that is how time works


we don't have anything saying that the Time Travels happen at the same time as Hit using his time skips, i don't even know why you would be using this as a counter when it realies on information we don't know and that we can't really prove


in this case being time stop at all is also directly shown to be wrong given that Goku moved during it multiples times, i has to not be time stop for those scenes, including how he dealed with it in the first place, to make sense, the conflicting data is equally the fact that it is both at the same time as it also conflicts just as much as it being both at the same time, your suggestion is equally "conflicting data" as what you are saying is conflicting


you do realize i gave an option on how to completely deal with said inconsistencies right? you can't say that by my logic we just shouldn't index it if i gave it a way to index it while covering everything, in my view that is, you did gave reasons as to why it would be accurate, which i don't agree with........but then you gave a "solution" that is............equally as inaccurate as what we did before and currently in the profile
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Hence why I said we’re gonna have to agree to disagree. Because I don’t see how “Or” and making them mutually exclusive (ie, adding more complications, hyper focusing on a singular piece of info that’s contradicted, etc.) is more accurate than labeling it as it actually appears and simply noting it’s inconsistent nature.
 
omegabronic said:
So, Time Skip is said to be Time Stop by characters and some WoG statements, that much would indicate that he is stopping time when paired up with some scenes like these two......but it isn't that simple

Firstly Vados directly says otherwise about the Time Skip being time stop, saying that it is simply time travel instead, which is even more evidence when taking the original japanese translation into account, which would contradict the WoG statements regarding the nature of the Time Skip, and then there is scenes where Goku moves while Hit is performing the Time Skip, before he goes Kaioken and "surpasses it" such as this one where Goku is in a very specific position with his feet very close to Hit's face, the sound cue for Hit activating his Time Skip and then suddenly Goku is a very different position entirely, blocking off Hit's attack, we know for a fact he activated the Time Skip as Goku was attacking, therefore the only way for him to have moved to such a different position in reaction to Hit's attack, is if he moved mid Time Skip alongside Hit, if Hit was time stopping then Goku would somehow need to completely blitz Hit entirely to move so fast that he wouldn't noticed he was moving in the few moments after the Time Skip ends....which given the scale of both in the fights is impossible as Hit can keep up with Goku several times in the fight and another moment where Goku blatantly reacts to the attacks mid time skip even changing his battle stance in between, so the ability isn't Time Stop at all? well...

In this scene(can't find it subbed or in English for the life of me) as well as this one when we clearly see the Time Stoping effect on Goku, Hit says that he "advanced" his Time Skip, so some have suggested that "Time Skip" is simply an umbrella term for all of Hit's Time based abilities, which seems to be confirmed by Hit's fight with Dyspo in which both called his Dimensional ability "Time Skip", so all solved, both are different techniques on the umbrella term that is "Time Skip".....right? well no, first of all, this contradicts the after mentioned Vados statement, in which she spoke of the Time Skip as an specific ability that can't Time Stop, instead only Time Traveling, with the episode itself going against this umbrella notion as well, since the Dimensional ability said to be Time Skip in the Hit vs Dyspo is said in the second match between Goku and Hit to not be Time Skip at all, which was an important narrative aspect of the fight, also thinking logically this "umbrella" term is flawed, as if Hit "evolved" his Time Travel into Time Stop instead......,then Goku wouldn't have any answer to the Time Stop, as that one he never was shown resisting after the supposed point where it became time stop, making the statements of it not working on Goku baseless from Hit's perspective, thus even the "umbrella" term solution has major contradictions in it, so how do we solve this? simple, do both

My suggestion is to lable Time Skip as this:
Time Travel or Time Stop (With his Time Skip Hit is able to travel through time up to 0.5 seconds to attack opponents, but there is far too many inconsistencies and contradictions to the technique regarding it usage, it equally shows and is stated to be time stopping instead while simultaneously stated and shown to not be time stop at all) or something along these lines, with Goku resisting it being labeled as a "possibly resistance" to Time Stop and a note underneath in the profile explaining the inconsistencies of the Time Skip, this way we can cover this self contradicting ability on a fair angle for both contradictory depictions and finally move on from it



i made my summary, you can tag staff now also you can give an opinion on it while at it?

Very late now, will go to sleep shortly, good night everyone 🌙
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RedReaper616 said:
Why possibly? I agree with everything but the “possibly.” It’s objectively Time Stop in several instances, and objectively Time Travel in others (despite the contradictory nature and statements). So wouldn’t it make more sense to make it fully both and then note the inconsistency?
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@DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @Planck69 @Firestorm808 @Damage3245 @Maverick_Zero_X @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Everything12 @Antvasima

As always, you may ignore the tag as you please.

So this thread is... Something alright (?)

In summary, after analyzing from all possible angles DBS portrayal of the ability Time Skip, we encountered the fact that it is, quite simply, a mess. As highlighted by Omega above, we have multiple instances of the ability being labeled and shown as a form of Time Travel (hence, Time Skip), that also happens to have the ability to store time (yet still called Time Skip), yet it also showcases instances where it outright stops time (and referred to as such).

All of these applications, logically, can't coexist and still be, at it's base, Time Skip. Yet the portrayal exists, however contradictory. Now, Omega proposes that we index the ability as time travel or time stop, as it can't be both, and thus Goku's resistance to this ability would be taken as "possibly" (and a note added to his and Hit's profile explaining the situation). However, as RedReaper proposes, we could instead take both interpretation as equally existing, noting that while fundamentally contradictory, both portrayals exist in the show. Furthermore, official although outside sources to the show also refer to the ability as a form of time stopping as showcased in LuffyRuffy's comment here.

In my opinion, I lean more to RedReaper's proposal. While yes, the ability can't be both time skip and time stop at the same time from a logical standpoint, the show itself treats it as such. That both instances of the ability exist. Coupled with the fact that Toei itself seems to think of the ability as a form of time stop, I'd say, for the sake of accuracy, we should index both forms of the ability, as both equally exist.
 
just have to ask.....if we truly index it as both....what do we give to the people who..."resist" it? like, Time Stop resistance doesn't help for the Time Traveling part, so how can they fully resist it them?
 
Resistance to Time Stop, Outlier Immeasurable for Goku. Even put IN the inconsistency note that this indexing is the sole reason it's considered immeasurable (as it is merely technicality), and thus is doubly invalid/inapplicable for scaling use. Problem solved.

For Jiren it's raw strength making him immune, so just resistance to Time Manipulation?
 
omegabronic said:
If it is immeasurable, wouldn't the resistance be redundant seem as Immeasurable speed already inately resists Time Stop?
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I mean technically, but both are being indexed to directly account for the fact both Time Stop and Travel are being indexed. Also, given Goku was said to be able to totally resist Time Skip (as it appeared in U6vU7, so both stopping and traveling) in Goku V Hit 2 without the inclusion of anything fancy like Kaioken or "reading things ahead," (any of the immeasurable speed implications, basically), I feel like it would simply mean Goku's resistance to Time Stop is solid regardless, if only pushed back to that arc. (With it simply being that U6vU7's resistance feat would be solely attributed to his immeas. moment, rather than just being both.)
 
omegabronic said:
If it is immeasurable, wouldn't the resistance be redundant seem as Immeasurable speed already inately resists Time Stop?
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Not really resist, but basic time stop couldn't affect Immeasurable speed due to the limitation of basic time stop, as time stop is just that you stop the flow of time to zero, immeasurable speed bypass flow of time completely, so simply stop the flow of time do not help, so it not a resistance that granted by the speed, but limitation of the time stop hax. But yeah there are timestop that can affect Immeasurable speed, cause fiction, but normal timestop isn't assumed to be that powerful
 
RedReaper616 said:
I mean technically, but both are being indexed to directly account for the fact both Time Stop and Travel are being indexed. Also, given Goku was said to be able to totally resist Time Skip (as it appeared in U6vU7, so both stopping and traveling) in Goku V Hit 2 without the inclusion of anything fancy like Kaioken or "reading things ahead," (any of the immeasurable speed implications, basically), I feel like it would simply mean Goku's resistance to Time Stop is solid regardless, if only pushed back to that arc. (With it simply being that U6vU7's resistance feat would be solely attributed to his immeas. moment, rather than just being both.)
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Just to comfirm, only to SSB Goku right? As that is the Goku who resisted it and is the state he in when the statement of him resisting it are made, right? do we like, give Hit limited RE for his Time Skip affecting BLUEKK10 Goku once and then apparently being useless regardless?
 
omegabronic said:
Just to comfirm, only to SSB Goku right? As that is the Goku who resisted it and is the state he in when the statement of him resisting it are made, right? do we like, give Hit limited RE for his Time Skip affecting BLUEKK10 Goku once and then apparently being useless regardless?
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SSB Goku from Goku V Hit 2 and anything Goku becomes after that. (Such as SSBKKx20, UIO, MUI, etc.)

As for Hit's RE, nah. It would just mean Goku's own adaptive nature came out on top between the two of them.
 
omegabronic said:
just have to ask.....if we truly index it as both....what do we give to the people who..."resist" it? like, Time Stop resistance doesn't help for the Time Traveling part, so how can they fully resist it them?
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Simply resistance to time hax?

Time Stop no longer exists as a single page and time travel is just a time hax application.

So time hax.
 
NOTE: Due to the vast amount of inconsistencies between various feats, statements, and information given about Time Skip, such as the mechanics explained by Vados and Whis, (that it is merely limited Time Travel that stores time) being directly contradicted on multiple occasions, including feats like freezing Goku in time, Hit's own words, and Word of God, or what even qualifies as Time Skip, as Tides of Time (Hit's Dimension-Shift) was initially stated not to be, but this was contradicted later in the Tournament of Power, regarding how Time Skip has a Dimension connected to it for Time Storage contradicts Hit's testimony regarding how he never made Time Skip do more than its initial basic function before, (and the basic mechanics, as he needs to skip time first to then store it), etc. has created a patchwork of incoherence. Due to this, and how the Time Freezing and Travelling related parts of the ability must both be simultaneously true for the plot of the Dragon Ball Super Anime to make sense (as Vados/Whis explanation is the sole reason he has his greater Time Dimension abilities thoughout the Assassination Arc, and he needs the abilities to also specifically be Time Stop for certain major plot sequences, like Time Cage, {which is explicitly described as "Time Skip in Reverse"} to affect Jiren), as well as the fact they are used interchangeably at several points, our community has decided to index the ability as both Time Travel and Time Stop, and to simply reconcile the best we can by ignoring these glaring contradictions to get the most accurate listing of Hit's ability.

This is if you want it with scans and a longer more thorough Note. If you want to gut the fat of it, though:

NOTE: Due to the vast amount of inconsistencies between various feats, statements, and information given about Time Skip has created patchwork of incoherence. Due to this, and how the Time Freezing and Traveling related parts of the ability must both be simultaneously true for the plot of the Dragon Ball Super Anime to make sense (as Vados/Whis explanation is the sole reason he has his greater Time Dimension abilities thoughout the Assassination Arc, and he needs the abilities to also specifically be Time Stop for certain major plot sequences, like Time Cage, {which is explicitly described as "Time Skip in Reverse"} to affect Jiren), as well as the fact they are used interchangeably at several points, our community has decided to index the ability as both Time Travel and Time Stop, and to simply reconcile the best we can by ignoring these glaring contradictions to get the most accurate listing of Hit's ability.

Should work fine.
 
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RedReaper616 said:
For the note on Goku’s profile, what reasons do we all want to list to explain why we consider it an outlier outside of the obvious fact that later sequences contradict it?

(So I can make additions for Goku’s note.)
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I'm not sure this would count but maybe the fact he still uses IT?
 
We shouldn't, no. They're the only ones who directly interact with TS, as Dyspo's winning strat was just hitting Hit before he activates his ability.
 
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