"Skipping? Stopping? man idek anymore" Hit time skip re-revision

[ChoursDropoff]

Literally gets contradicted by the that Beerus has a better speed feat in that exact same arc.

 

[StrymULTRA]

There are levels to immeasurable speed not all characters can freely move through time because have the ability.

What.

 

[Golden_Void]

Just make it PIS and call it a day at this point lol. You think tanks are never finding common ground

 

[Killerdrone123]

It's called Time Skip because for others the 0.1 seconds are skipped due to all of them being frozen outside of Hit for said duration of time, while for Hit the 0.1 seconds still flow normally.

There's no time travel going on here.

Can you please tell me what are you proposing?

Cause this is getting very confusing now

 

[Golden_Void]

Can you please tell me what are you proposing?

Cause this is getting very confusing now

Something like what I said on page 4

 

[Killerdrone123]

Something like what I said on page 4

You are saying time stop + time travel and he is saying it isn't time travel and neither time stop

 

[StrymULTRA]

Can you please tell me what are you proposing

Hit's hax is just a mix of Time Manip + Pocket Reality Manip + sometimes Intangibility.

Goku's resistance would be to just that as the Time Skip is neither Stop nor Travel. Working on a Blog on it as I said.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

What.

Beerus traveling the same distance in a tenth of the time. Plus isn’t that statement of yours from the RoF not super?

 

[ChoursDropoff]

His "Immeasurable at peak" is not actually close to his current top speed.

And his current top speed is not Immeasurable. Make that make sense.

It would actually be like this. Massively FTL+, Immeasurable that one time, Massively FTL+ at peak.

Call it an outlier Immeasurable speed feat, and remove the necessary resistances imo.

Massively FTL+ - Possible/Likely Immeasurable at peak. Is probably better

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Massively FTL+ - Possible/Likely Immeasurable at peak. Is probably better

What part of "Outlier" aren´t people understanding?

 

[Killerdrone123]

What part of "Outlier" aren´t people understanding?

Outlier is a funny word we don't do that here

 

[Omegabronic]

It's called Time Skip because for others the 0.1 seconds are skipped due to all of them being frozen outside of Hit for said duration of time, while for Hit the 0.1 seconds still flow normally.

There's no time travel going on here.

that can't work since for his pocket dimension to be made, time has to be skiped litterally to be collected, if it is just stopped then there nothing to collect, also ignoring the fact that Goku moved several times during the said skips, which wouldn't happen if it was time stop

 

[CelestialVortex01]

I'd say either we could grant goku a greater resistance towards time manipulation or basically remove hit from this wiki.

 

[StrymULTRA]

that can't work since for his pocket dimension to be made, time has to be skiped litterally to be collected, if it is just stopped then there nothing to collect, also ignoring the fact that Goku moved several times during the said skips, which wouldn't happen if it was time stop

In fact, it's "stopped" for anyone but Hit due to said Time being skipped for them.

I never said it's Time Stop.

 

[Omegabronic]

Hit's hax is just a mix of Time Manip + Pocket Reality Manip + sometimes Intangibility.

Goku's resistance would be to just that as the Time Skip is neither Stop nor Travel. Working on a Blog on it as I said.

after you do, can we create a staff thread to settle this? this one shows is starting to get too big, too messy, too fast, i don't think there is any staff willingly to go into this mess to evaluate anymore

 

[StrymULTRA]

after you do, can we create a staff thread to settle this? this one shows is starting to get too big, too messy, too fast, i don't think there is any staff willingly to go into this mess to evaluate anymore

Yeah. Preferably also Staff Only, as we reached 5 pages in less than 2 days.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

It’s the fact that these characters can jump from 4-B to 2-C with ssj god which is only accepted as a 2500x multiplier on the wiki.

That's not Super Saiyan God's multiplier. That's Vegito's multiplier, which God scales up. You can't use that example.

It’s not whataboutism please Learn what that word is.

"Hey, you can't use multipliers as a contradiction, what about these other series who have the same problem", the very definition of whataboutism.

With your line of thinking no character in super would even be universal+

Or maybe you don't know what you're saying??? Oh wow.
Multipliers are a contradiction.

There are levels to immeasurable speed not all characters can freely move through time because have the ability.

Me when I make shit up:

There are not levels to immeasurable speed, it's a binary concept, you either treat time as a spatial dimension or you don't, there's no in-between.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Immeasurable Speed literally gives the user the ability of travel through time, lol

This is like saying someone with time travel can´t travel through time

I will give a concrete vote on the subject when Strym finishes his blog explaining the ability

 

[RedReaper616]

It's called Time Skip because for others the 0.1 seconds are skipped due to all of them being frozen outside of Hit for said duration of time, while for Hit the 0.1 seconds still flow normally.

There's no time travel going on here.

Wouldn’t it still be immeasurable via moving when time is “froze-skipped?” Or are we assuming Goku is resistant to both Time Stop and Time Skip? Also, rewatching episode 72, Goku’s KHH interacts with (read—Destroys and collides with in their power struggle) Hit’s Time Dimension, so shouldn’t that register as a new NPI justification for him? Same for the WoV, actually—I’m getting off topic.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Wouldn’t it still be immeasurable via moving when time is “froze-skipped?”

No for the same reason why moving in Time Stops isn't Infinite either.

 

[Golden_Void]

You are saying time stop + time travel and he is saying it isn't time travel and neither time stop

I literally never said that

I still believe Hit basically "fast forwards" himself in time, therefore the rest of space technically doesn't actively "exist" in the frames that he operates, which is why everything is frozen until/even when he interacts with it. Some of these ideas like time stop + time travel = time skip require way too much exposition.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

That's not Super Saiyan God's multiplier. That's Vegito's multiplier, which God scales up. You can't use that example.

Point being that the multipler is not infinite and he clearly jumps a beyond infinite gap with finite numbers and why can’t we use the example if it’s an in verse example of what you’re complaining about?

"Hey, you can't use multipliers as a contradiction, what about these other series who have the same problem", the very definition of whataboutism.

Name the series I was talking about. I was pointing out the contradiction in what you said.

Or maybe you don't know what you're saying??? Oh wow.
Multipliers are a contradiction.

Lmao I literally gave you an an example and you in verse of finite multipliers jumping infinite gaps and you tell me I can’t use that because reasons.

Me when I make shit up:

There are not levels to immeasurable speed, it's a binary concept, you either treat time as a spatial dimension or you don't, there's no in-between.

Then stop making stuff up not every character with immeasurable speed are gonna have the capability’s to travel to any point in time freely. Hence why the thread is treating it as a very limited form of immeasurable speed

 

[Killerdrone123]

I literally never said that

I see my bad then read it wrong

 

[Omegabronic]

Point being that the multipler is not infinite and he clearly jumps a beyond infinite gap with finite numbers and why can’t we use the example if it’s an in verse example of what you’re complaining about?

We don't know if the multiplier is finite or not, we use the 400x400 as a minimum, but we can never downscale it for base in any way since we don't know the actual multiplier

Then stop making stuff up not every character with immeasurable speed are gonna have the capability’s to travel to any point in time freely. Hence why the thread is treating it as a very limited form of immeasurable speed

By definition they will, the time axis is like a spatial one for them

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

We have one for the anime.

But it is secondary content.

Hit himself also noted time stopped for everyone else but him

Also stated to stop time In the ToP

Him skipping time has the effect of stoping time for those within the skipped time period, even if he's not directly stopping time (he isn't, but time stops when he skips)

 

[Omegabronic]

Hit himself also noted time stopped for everyone else but him

Also stated to stop time In the ToP

Him skipping time has the effect of stoping time for those within the skipped time period, even if he's not directly stopping time (he isn't, but time stops when he skips)

If you want to ignore the times Goku moved during it that is, also the other statements of it not stopping time

Also the first link has no reason to be the time skip, also it has a far bigger duration than what the Time Skip has shown

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

I'm not sure if this was brought up already, but the conversation with King Kai was translated on the requests forum.

It's not tardive asthma.
Delayed onset?
When you use your chi the wrong way.
If you use your chi improperly, you can lose control of your chi after a few days.
It's a condition in which you lose control of your temper after a few days of inactivity.
Random?
Ten times over! What is that?
Kaioken?
Well, it's like a sore muscle.
It'll heal on its own after a while.
It will heal.
But you...
You can't use the World King Fist ten times or something like that.
What do you mean, "a while"?
I don't know.
Let me get this straight, Mr. World King.
You're going to have to fight a tournament with all the kings in the near future.
That's why I told you to rest!
The same goes for the World King's Fist.
You know what?
You were in a fight the other day.
I heard that you were a few seconds ahead of me in the fight the other day.
You're not good if you keep taking things too far.
Before you know it.
Your consciousness and your senses will be out of alignment.
You will lose the ability to fight properly.

Just a question when he says few seconds ahead of time does he mean that goku was physically forcing himself ahead of time or he was doing it mentally

physically, and I understand that it affects his mental state as well.

It seems the intention was not that Goku was analytically predicting Hit's moves, but the discussion was meant to convey that he physically "forced himself into the future," with such an action resulting in his senses (which physically went beyond time) becoming temporally out-of-sync with his mind (which was presumably stuck in the present).

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Point being that the multipler is not infinite

The multiplier is nothing, it's unknown. You can't say what it is or what it isn't. Lmao.
Oh just so you know, even if it had a multiplier, the 2-C feat is so overwhelmingly stronger as proof that the multiplier itself would be a meaningless contradiction, Dragon Ball is consistently 2-C. This isn't the same for the immeasurable speed feat, because it has much weaker evidence and several contradictions.
In both cases, the multiplier is a valid contradiction. You act as if I said the multiplier was an "end-all, be-all" contradiction. It isn't. It is a contradiction, to decide whether it matters in our judgement we have to use the surrounding context. But in the case of the SSG's multiplier, your point isn't even correct, because the form doesn't have a multiplier, so any claims around it are effectively false.

Name the series I was talking about. I was pointing out the contradiction in what you said.

You were not talking about specifics, you were being general. You didn't point out any contradiction, you said "uhhhm, other series do it, so DB can do it as well".
Right here:

There are characters in fiction who can reach immeasurable speed by going 2x speed their characters

You quote other characters in fiction. What they do is irrelevant to how we judge Dragon Ball. Where exactly does this contradict my text? I said that the multiplier is a valid contradiction, and then proceeded to dismantle your entire argument, explaining exactly how a finite multiplier is still a contradiction even to tiers we've accepted, so pointing it out is completely meaningless to the conversation.

Lmao I literally gave you an an example and you in verse of finite multipliers jumping infinite gaps and you tell me I can’t use that because reasons.

I said you can't use it because SSG doesn't have a multiplier but I guess that went over your head. I made the text bigger for you, maybe you can see what I meant now. You can't claim that SSG's multiplier is finite or infinite BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HAVE ONE. It's a simple concept, you're acting like it's rocket science.
Also, as I explained, and again I'll make the text big for you to pay attention:
A FINITE MULTIPLIER IS STILL A CONTRADICTION EVEN IF A TIER IS ACCEPTED AND VALID, BECAUSE IN THIS CASE, THE MULTIPLIER IS AN INSIGNIFICANT CONTRADICTION AGAINST A MUCH STRONGER PIECE OF EVIDENCE AND/OR FEAT. 2-C DBS HAS MOUNTAINS OF EVIDENCE, MAKING THE MULTIPLIER CONTRADICTION MEANINGLESS. IMMEASURABLE SPEED HAS ONE MINOR FEAT AND SEVERAL CONTRADICTIONS, SO IT'S FALSE EQUIVALENCE TO USE BOTH AS IF THEY WERE THE SAME.

I hope this helps you understand exactly why your argument is nonsense. I feel like I've knocked the physical manifestation of your arguments into the ring several times, and it sucks to see it get up only to be knocked down again. Please stop repeating yourself and forcing me to explain again and again why you're completely wrong.

Then stop making stuff up not every character with immeasurable speed are gonna have the capability’s to travel to any point in time freely. Hence why the thread is treating it as a very limited form of immeasurable speed

Brother you don't even know what Immeasurable Speed is. If a character has immeasurable speed he HAS the capability to travel to any point in time freely, BY DEFINITION. This isn't a debate, Immeasurable Speed is not a spectrum.

 

[Robo432343]

Then stop making stuff up not every character with immeasurable speed are gonna have the capability’s to travel to any point in time freely.

if you can't do this then you don't have immeasurable speed lmao

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I'm not sure if this was brought up already, but the conversation with King Kai was translated on the requests forum.


It seems the intention was not that Goku was analytically predicting Hit's moves, but the discussion was meant to convey that he physically "forced himself into the future," with such an action resulting in his senses (which physically went beyond time) becoming temporally out-of-sync with his mind (which was presumably stuck in the present).

Where in the following sequence does it talk about Goku forcing himself into the future?

この 間 の 格闘 試合 で
何 秒 か 先 を 読 ん で おった そう じゃ な
そういう 無理 ばかり し とる と まずい ん じゃ ぞ

Mainly because it has 読 which seems to mean "read". I don't know Japanese, I'm just researching on my own until someone explains it in detail or a translation assistant explains it.

 

[Robo432343]

I'm not sure if this was brought up already, but the conversation with King Kai was translated on the requests forum.

that guy is not a translation member and why are we trusting this??

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Where in the following sequence does it talk about Goku forcing himself into the future?


Mainly because it has 読 which seems to mean "read". I don't know Japanese, I'm just researching on my own until someone explains it in detail or a translation assistant explains it.

It's "pushing yourself", meaning exerting too much stamina, which is related to the fact Goku was reckless with Kaioken. It, in no way, says anything about forcing himself into the future

 

[Phsccarvalho]

It's "pushing yourself", meaning exerting too much stamina, which is related to the fact Goku was reckless with Kaioken. It, in no way, says anything about forcing himself into the future

Then explain which part of the sentence and which kanji, sequence of kanji, has something to do with it.

The only thing I see looking at on my own is about the context of reading seconds into the future.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Then explain which part of the sentence and which kanji, sequence of kanji, has something to do with it.

The only thing I see looking at on my own is about the context of reading seconds into the future.

そういう "such; like that", 無理 "impossible; unreasonable", ばかり "only", し conjunctive form of the verb "to do", とる (toru) "to take"

King Kai is basically saying Goku can't take things to such an unreasonable extent, meaning exerting himself too much, that's what caused his delayed Ki.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

そういう "such; like that", 無理 "impossible; unreasonable", ばかり "only", し conjunctive form of the verb "to do", とる (toru) "to take"

King Kai is basically saying Goku can't take things to such an unreasonable extent, meaning exerting himself too much, that's what caused his delayed Ki.

I'm not talking about that, but rather the part about forcing yourself into the future.

It, in no way, says anything about forcing himself into the future

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I'm not talking about that, but rather the part about forcing yourself into the future.

This part doesn't exist

 

[RedReaper616]

I'm not talking about that, but rather the part about forcing yourself into the future.

They’re saying it doesn’t/agreeing with you.

 

[CaveGamist]

It's called Time Skip because for others the 0.1 seconds are skipped due to all of them being frozen outside of Hit for said duration of time, while for Hit the 0.1 seconds still flow normally.

There's no time travel going on here.

Uh?

 

[Hasty12345]

If Kaio-Ken is accepted as a valid multiplier for previous arcs, we shouldn't assume all of a sudden it has some magical properties.

I know Goku is portrayed as a total idiot in Super, not being able to count properly, but he does demonstrate the ability to count up to at least 10.

If Goku shouts "kaio ken x 10" it's probably a 10x multiplier, which does contradict immeasurable speed interpretations that don't have SSB Goku at immeasurable speed.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

If Kaio-Ken is accepted as a valid multiplier for previous arcs, we shouldn't assume all of a sudden it has some magical properties.

I know Goku is portrayed as a total idiot in Super, not being able to count properly, but he does demonstrate the ability to count up to at least 10.

If Goku shouts "kaio ken x 10" it's probably a 10x multiplier, which does contradict immeasurable speed interpretations that don't have SSB Goku at immeasurable speed.

Although DBS is no stranger to having infinite jumps with finite boosts, It seems the translation that claimed Goku went into the future may be wrong in either case.
But this seems to paint a clear picture of the normal timeskip