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Skill Tier List #1: Video Games vs Comics

M3X_2.0 said:
Then it’s not martial arts brother
Click to expand...
it is if it's performed with a martial art
Hokuto Shinken and all other techniques are genuine martial arts in FoTNS and they could turn people to dust or make you enter a state of nothingness.
That's just how it is
 
The_man_with_the_Midas_touch said:
Hax through skill is pretty much unquantifiable regardless. Performing funky magic with martial arts doesn't inherently make him above what karate kid can do.
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tbf he's debately more bullshit
Da_Lunge_Fish said:
it is if it's performed with a martial art
Hokuto Shinken and all other techniques are genuine martial arts in FoTNS and they could turn people to dust or make you enter a state of nothingness.
That's just how it is
Click to expand...
"im so skilled i can smell what you'll do in a decade, and have already countered it and at that exact moment in time, a time-space distortion will bubble up and cause you to trip, breaking your legs and dying from a heart attack (you fell onto a cat, which you're allergic). Also, I can warp between dimensions, create black holes and i can beat watch out for rolling rocks in 0 A presses, all due to my awesome skill with guns btw".
 
Da_Lunge_Fish said:
Most of his feats are just reacting to herald level threats and judoing him.
He doesn't perform actual magic with martial arts like Kenshiro does
Click to expand...
You haven't read his profile have you

He does do "magic", it's just magic that's a hyper-exaggerated version of real martial arts to a completely insane degree rather than "uh i trained really hard and now i can cast Magic Missile three times a day" which is just like, a verse mechanic and not a quantifiable skill feat
 
Armorchompy said:
You haven't read his profile have you

He does do "magic", it's just magic that's a hyper-exaggerated version of real martial arts to a completely insane degree rather than "uh i trained really hard and now i can cast Magic Missile three times a day" which is just like, a verse mechanic and not a quantifiable skill feat
Click to expand...
Hyper exaggerated martial arts < BFRing a mf's soul and entering a state of non existence via martial arts
 
This is not martial arts brother, it’s both BFR and Soul Manipulation.

Can we stick to martial arts here?
 
This wiki has a clear issue to distinguish skill from powers and abilities.

Earlier on this thread people were saying Dante was skileld because he dodged the void.

Dodging isn’t skill and dodging the void is just bullshit.
 
GtTg_s.gif

me when i see an alleged skill god actually ******* block (most dont)
 
Parry mechanics in video games my beloved...
M3X_2.0 said:
This wiki has a clear issue to distinguish skill from powers and abilities.

Earlier on this thread people were saying Dante was skileld because he dodged the void.

Dodging isn’t skill and dodging the void is just bullshit.
Click to expand...
It's still hillarious how a community centered around debating how fictional characters fight doesn't know squat about fighting.
 
M3X_2.0 said:
This wiki has a clear issue to distinguish skill from powers and abilities.

Earlier on this thread people were saying Dante was skileld because he dodged the void.

Dodging isn’t skill and dodging the void is just bullshit.
Click to expand...
Except Dante dodging the void is just bullshit
Musou Tensei is very blatantly stated to be the final and ultimate technique of Hokuto Shinken, which is very blatantly a martial art.
In fact, at the end Raoh and Kenshiro, who both entered this state, were beating the shit out of each other with common fisticuffs because musou Tensei was the ultimate technique, making all the other ones irrelevant
 
Da_Lunge_Fish said:
Musou Tensei is very blatantly stated to be the final and ultimate technique of Hokuto Shinken, which is very blatantly a martial art.
Click to expand...
Hax isn't skill, it's unquantifiable. It stems from it yeah, but that's ultimately still just hax stemming from it.

For example, Hermit Purple and Ball Breaker from JoJo are both the ultimate techniques stemming from a martial combat, but going "wow Gyro so skilled he can harness infinite gravity, pierce dimensions and uh deconstruct you and suck you into an alternate dimension because he's so skilled with a funny ball".
Like Hamon as a whole is a good example of an actual martial style, that grants a bunch of random hax that has **** all to do with actual skill "wow im so skilled i can walk on water and heal a broken neck".
 
M3X_2.0 said:
Dodging isn’t skill and dodging the void is just bullshit.
Click to expand...
I mean dodging can totally be a skill feat- there's technique in dodging, any real-world boxer or martial artist could tell you that.

This void feat may not be valid, but you can certainly derive skill from dodging if it wasn't done purely by speed.
 
All of this sounds like someone should expand the Intelligence page for specifically combat skill, especially as nowadays we separate combat intelligence from general intelligence, with only the latter being usable for Extraordinary Genius or above.
 
Imagine Being So skilled you start performing insane super-powered feat's like erasing the existence of someone or regenerating your own wounds, of course that's totally skill and not just acquired hax!

... I know this wiki isn't the best with this, but even if Skill is something inherently hard to define and gauge across verses, it still might be a good idea to define it a little better. I don't even care about Dante Dodging the Void, it's just a matter of people claiming that X Hax comes purely from skill and skill alone. That just, does not seem right no matter how someone looks at it...
 
M3X_2.0 said:
Not even close to Karate Kid though.
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I would say that Ken is definitively more skilled than KK, let's compare them in the following categories, which are the most common skill abilities: Technique copy, Analytical Prediction, Enhanced Senses, Acrobatics, Body Control, Info Analysis, Reflexes, Accelerated Development/Learning Speed, Martial Arts/Weapon Mastery ,Skill scaling chains, Combat feats and Experience.

Here's some Kenshiro feats,I will also present feats performed by people who scale below Kenshiro, just so I don’t bog this list down with names I haven’t given context to. Kenshiro stands as the single most skilled fighter in his universe, surpassing all his predecessors and having absolute mastery over almost every single martial art displayed throughout the series. Kenshiro is perhaps the greatest Pressure Point user in fiction without any exaggeration. Most of his attacks are one hit kill, and not only that, depending of the pressure point and the technique, striking a pressure point can cause all sorts of effects such as:
Among many others, afterall Hokuto Shinken has a innumerable amount of techniques, and is stated to have infinite fighting variations, And Kenshiro is the most skilled fighter in his series which is no small feat because Hokuto No Ken is a verse full of broken and highly lethal martial arts, even the "weakest" ones can do things like:
The Strongest ones in the series are Hokuto Shinken, Nanto Seiken, and Gento Koken

Hokuto Shinken:​

The art's power is focused into channeling one's energy in a single blow and striking into the 708 Keiraku Hikō (経絡秘孔, "Hidden Channeling Points") points in the human body (also known as pressure points, power points, vital points, tsubo, etc.). These pressure points destroy the enemy from within, and causes the victim to explode (hence its durability-negating nature), be controlled involuntarily or otherwise incapacitated. It can also be used to heal certain physical and psychological wounds, such as restoring a person's voice, eyesight or memories, though the main purpose of Hokuto Shinken is assassination. Here some of it's best techniques:
Kenshiro is the greatest Hokuto Shinken user of all time in his series, he's so skilled that he can easily strike a pressure point as small as the tip of a pin with a strand of hair, the mastery over Hokuto Shinken not only makes Kenshiro incredibly versatile but also super deadly, especially to human characters, but even if someone is not human and has different pressure points, Kenshiro can still kill him, Kenshiro can discover the locations of ones pressure points, and even if he don't, he can use the Tenha Kassatsu A technique that is able to reveal the locations of one's vital points it also allows it's user to hit an opponent's pressure points without even making physical contact with them, Kenshiro doesn't even need to know the exact location of one's pressure points for Tenha Kassatsu work.

1800 years ago in China, during the "Three Kingdoms" era, the Hokuto fist was split up amongst the three clans, and all 3 had different versions of Hokuto.

Hokuto Soka Ken​

Hokuto Sonka Ken​

Hokuto Ryuken​

Kenshiro knows all of those, especially Hokuto Ryuken. The ultimate Hokuto Ryuken technique is Anryū Tenha the user can bend space around himself to avoid attacks or distort space around an opponent to disorient them and trap them in a weightless space, it also can distort the distance between himself and his opponent, control the arena and atmosphere. EOS Kenshiro also scales above Toki and Raoh who were so skilled that they both created their own versions of Hokuto, which Kenshiro also knows.

Nanto Seiken:​

While Hokuto Shinken targets vital points to destroy enemies from within, Nanto Seiken teaches how to kill from the outside. This style not only incorporates weaponry but the more advanced schools allow fighters to kill with their bare hands, ranging from hand-to-hand stabbing techniques to slice enemies apart with air pressure. There are 108 sects Nanto Seiken. The six strongest Nanto masters are called the Nanto Roku Seiken, who correspond to the six stars in the Nanto Roku Sei constellation. Junsei, Gisei, Yōsei, Jinsei, Shōsei, and Jibosei (Those who live under this star do not master any Nanto style. Instead, the combat capabilities come from the Nanto Goshasei guardians) which leaves us with the 5 strongest Nanto martial arts. They are:

  1. Nanto Koshu Ken​

  2. Nanto Suicho Ken​

  3. Nanto Kokaku Ken​

  4. Nanto Hakuro Ken​

  5. Nanto Hōō Ken​

Most of them are pretty broken, they are capable of doing things like A flying kick which maims the enemy by slicing the tendons in their arms and legs, cutting the opponent’s ligaments so finely that the cartilage along with all connective tissues would regenerate in 3 seconds if left unmoved (i think this attack is somewhere in the nano/pico meters range), slice the victim apart from the back without touching it, create powerful ilusions to obscure the user's presence and mystify opponents, fly and phase through the enemies attacks while simultaneously slicing them, and many others. Kenshiro is a master of all 108 Nanto styles.

​

Gento Koken:​

The Gento style focuses on use of ki energy, usually projected outwards as a blast or sometimes as a shield. It uses ki and light like a blade to destroy the opponent's body on a cellular level. Here's Falco disintegrating a man with a Gento attack (here's the anime version of this scene for you to see more cleary), Falco easily desintegrated Jako too. Gento fighters can also shoot ice from their hands, and Kenshiro also knows this super deadly style.

But there's something that almost every martial art in Hokuto no Ken utilizes

Tōki:​

Tōki (闘気, Fighting Spirit) is a special type of ki energy used in several martial arts, including Hokuto Shin Ken, Hokuto Sanka Ken, Nanto Sei Ken and Gento Kō Ken. It can be used to launch ki-based attacks that strike targets (even precise ones, like the Keiraku Hiko) at long range, or to defend the user from attack. Kenshiro has displayed impressive ki mastery over the course of the series, he's able to shoot ki attacks, use ki like telekinesis, he can use ki to touch's one pressure points, he can absorb other's ki, can also prevent his ki from being absorbed, can use ki as force field and protect himself, he can also pass through Ki shields, and also use ki to fly, put fear on others and pacify animals. An expert user can often radiate tōki from his own body as a Fighting Spirit Aura (Tōki no Aura) he can use his Aura to attack for him and manifest a barrage of fists, anticipate attacks, dull murderous intent, strike a man's heart, fright a fighter's ki back into his body, and leave him completely incapable of moving and so weak that even a single pebble can knock him down and redirect ki blasts, and hit other people's vital points automatically (a scene of something similar happening in the anime)

So Kenshiro is extremely versatille not only due to the mastery of Hokuto itself but also due to the amount of other martial art styles at his disposal.

Now for the sake of comparasion

Technique copy:​

Using the Sueishin technique, Kenshiro can easily assimilate the enemy's style, it's stated multiple times in the series that Kenshiro just need to see a martial art in action once to completely master it. Kasumi (Kenshiro's uncle) even says that this is what makes Hokuto Shinken the ultimate martial art, Hokuto users not only steal your martial art, they can instantly do it better than you and understand it on a much deeper level than you ever could, Kenshiro for example surpassed Solia's prowess in Gento Kō Ken [a martial art once deemed to be more deadly than Hokuto Shinken and with 2000 years of history], after only seeing a single move of said style. Other Hokuto fighters besides Kenshiro could also copy martial arts, Raoh for example, even before setting on his quest to summon all kenpo users, had already mastered almost every martial art After starting his quest, Raoh goes out of his way to summon masters of all martial arts and “steal their secrets”, aka, master their martial art (also yeah, he masters a whole martial art by reading a piece of paper describing it..), here’s the japanese and here’s the translation We are told by Toki that Raoh repeated this process with “hundreds of families”, meaning that Raoh has mastered hundreds of martial arts. Kasumi Kenshiro copied Hokuto Sonka Ken's KI manipulation to create the Tenha Kassatsu. And even Jagi who is a absolute fodder compared to EOS Kenshiro, could copy a Nanto style. here's Ken and other Hokuto users using some fighting styles that they copied.

Analytical Prediction:​

Kenshiro has multiple forms of precog. he can use the opponent's breathing-rhythm to predict their moves, predict the opponent’s moves by reading his muscle and eye movements, just like the Colonel did, Hokuto fighters can anticipate the attacks of those who enter his aura, along with being able to read the aura of others to predict their movements, Hokuto fighters can also receives visions of other fighters attacks, accurately predicting when, where and which attack would be and what effect would it have if connect it. (here's a anime scene of this happening too), Hokuto fighters can also sense one's presence and smell killing intent, which makes them highly unlikely to be taken by surprise, it's also quite difficult to predict an attack of a Hokuto fighter since they can change their fate and erase their presence. when 2 Hokuto masters fight each other no one can predict the outcome.

Enhanced Senses :​

Hokuto fighters can

Acrobatics:​

Alot of martial art have displayed incredible Acrobatic stunts during the series things like
There's also the fact that some fighters in HNK can fly/float/glide with Certain techniques. Also Kenshiro scales above anyone else in any type of combat.

Body Control:​

Information Analysis​

seeing a person is enough for him to perfectly know his strength, Hokuto users such as Kasumi can see a martial art’s blind spot and perceive the split second in which the user focuses energy to throw an attack and use that knowledge to predict the attack, effectively negating the martial art as a whole. This martial art had no conventional blind spots the user could even punch and kick behind his back. Like Juza, Hokuto fighters can read a martial art so well that they can predict every move from it.

Reflexes:​

Accelerated Development/Learning Speed:​

Kenshiro not only can copy techniques he also can nullify its effects and see right through it. He has been shown to adapt to incredibly complex techniques on the fly, such as when he adapted to Anryū Tenha's space-warping ability, he was able to discover that Souther suffered from dextrocardia by sensing his blood flow and heartbeat, after just one fight, and also able to find away to kill a guy that was "immune" to Hokuto Shinken in mid fight, other Hokuto fighters such as Kasumi can see a martial art’s “blind spot”, that is, he can perceive the split second in which the user focuses energy to throw an attack and use that knowledge to predict the attack, effectively negating the martial art as a whole, he also can come up with new techniques on the fly in order to counter his opponent’s, in fact even minor characters in HNK are crazy adaptable this is evident when Shachi and Kaiser fought each other, The two were constantly one-up each other, Shachi was able to fully read the Kaiser’s moves and then Shachi got outskilled by Kaiser, showing that even fodders have the ability to quickly adapt to the opponent’s martial art. Speaking of Shachi, he has been shown to be able to adapt to Han's speed just by watching him and Kenshiro fight, even though he previously couldn't see Han's fist attack him, Kenshiro was also able to adapt to Souther's speed, at first Ken could barely see him, but seconds after he was able to completely blitz Souther, Ken is also said to become stronger according to his opponent level of power, and he did managed to fight Raoh to a standstill and would have killed him had he not been stopped, despite Toki stating only minutes prior that Ken didn't even have a 1% chance of defeating Raoh. He's stated to have "infinite potential" in terms of technique and combat prowess multiple times throughout the series. Scales significantly above Toki, who, with his sheer skill and talent, bent Raoh's fate and manifested his harbinger of death. The same technique doesn't work twice on a Hokuto master.

Martial Arts/Weapon Mastery:​

Kenshiro is the greatest Hokuto Shinken master of all time, and he has absolute mastery over every single martial art displayed throughout the series (with few exceptions), he's also stated to have mastered nunchaku, sword and staff use he's able to deflect knives using his nunchucks, and is excellent at throwing spears, other Hokuto fighters such as Charles De Guise have show incredible use of firearms, Hokuto fighters can turn anything into a deadly weapon, such as cutlery and even a strand of hair.

Skill scaling chains:​

Hokuto no Ken skill respect thread. this doc does a good job of clarifying the scaling, but i also recommend for anyone interested to read the whole thing just for you to see how bonkers the skill feats in the series are.

Combat feats and Experience:​

Read the Hokuto no Ken skill respect thread feats section. in HNK you pretty much have to fight in apnea because the slight loosening of muscles and the minuscule amount of nerves devoted to such an act and not the fight could be used by the opponent to win. About experience, even some fodders in HNK had like a thousand fights, Kenshiro fights nearly every day in the apocalyptic wasteland. Also Given the context of how Hokuto works, how it was designed as the “ultimate martial art” and how its masters tend to go around the planet fighting other martial artists in order to enhance the style (here’s a notable instance of this happening) it’s a fairly safe bet to say that Hokuto Shinken ultimately contains aspects of every martial art that has ever existed from 2000 years ago to the moment the series ends, and Ken states that due to the nature of Hokuto Shinken's transmission, it's like he has 1800 years worth of combat experience and training, he was an assassin from the very moment he was born, and due to the fact that he also went through the initiation ritual like Kasumi and touched the Hokuto stone, which makes him live through the lives of every single successor in the history of Hokuto, effectively gaining 1800 years of combat experience. Ken scales above Raoh (who is stated to have surpassed the power of Hokuto itself) and Kaioh who fought on equal grounds against Shachi possessed by the Hokuto goddess (a deity that probably has millions of years worth of experience)

How does Val compare?
 
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Tomfer said:
Most of these "skills" feats are straight up haxs disguising themselves as skill and pretty much everyone already agreed upon that.

Kenshiro fans keep on missing.
Click to expand...
Giving them a quick glance, I would say half of them are, not most. Lets not get hyperbolic here.
 
Silvervigilant said:
How does Val compare?
Click to expand...
I don't think it's really fair to compare every category as if they're all equally important, Val isn't going up against fellow martial artists, he's going up against massive stat bricks that are way faster and stronger than him, his techniques are inevitably going to focus on that. I'll recognize he's much lesser than Kenshiro in stuff like precog or power mimicry but I don't think he really needs to have that given what he actually does, and magic shit aside he's way better at it than Ken would be despite the massive stat gap.

There's also the matter of scaling. While Karate Kid doesn't have many great Precog feats, he upscales from Batman who definitely does.
Silvervigilant said:
Pressure Points stuff
Click to expand...
While it's more versatile I'm not really convinced it's actually as powerful as KK's Super Karate duraneg. It's ultimately just being able to body control people in many different ways, while KK's main fighting style works on almost any material (and species) in the galaxy (which is extremely useful for a superhero that's gonna act in the entire galaxy), but also energy constructs, and on a FAR greater scale than Kenshiro- he can hurt Supergirl (4-B, soon at minimum 3-B but I think 2-C)-tier enemies and destroy planet-sized chains. Even KK's "proper" pressure point attacks work on non-organic foes.

If we want to talk about entire niches of techniques and skill feats that Kenshiro can't replicate though:
  • Can keep up with Pre-Crisis Kryptonian tier people fairly consistently, thanks to them holding back in speed (probably?) but being able to stall for time against someone who is completely invulnerable to you and infinitely stronger than you is still very impressive.
  • What's way more impressive than that is that he can put them in joint locks. Despite having a literally infinite LS gap compared to him, Karate Kid has been capable of (temporarily) putting Superboy (Young Clark Kent) in a lock and restrain him not once but twice.
  • Earthquakes: Yeah KK can just make earthquakes, via skill somehow. It's not even a one-time thing he does it on two different occasions, once with enough power to contrast another EQ Yujiro-style and reflect it back at sender.
Silvervigilant said:
Acrobatics
Click to expand...
I don't think describing it is really worthwhile but he has really good acrobatics on his profile, both in the P&A and Feats section.
Silvervigilant said:
Body Control:
Click to expand...
KK's mental/physical conditioning is so good that he literally does not feel pain from most injuries and has endured a plague that lesser stages of drive most to madness in minutes for over an hour, he can break through mind control, has powered through devices meant to sap his willpower and instead pushed through his limits despite them, has incredible resistance to anesthetics, can literally fight seconds after waking from a coma while suffering from amnesia and STILL instantly analyze fighting styles despite having no conscious memory of them and indeed when pressed for time he's capable of instinctively pulling off really difficult stunts he's never done before
Silvervigilant said:
Martial Arts/Weapon Mastery:
Kenshiro is the greatest Hokuto Shinken master of all time, and he has absolute mastery over every single martial art displayed throughout the series (with few exceptions), he's also stated to have mastered nunchaku, sword and staff use he's able to deflect knives using his nunchucks, and is excellent at throwing spears, other Hokuto fighters such as Charles De Guise have show incredible use of firearms, Hokuto fighters can turn anything into a deadly weapon, such as cutlery and even a strand of hair.
Click to expand...
KK is trained in the usage of literally every single martial art (both armed and unarmed, which means every weapon too) in the galaxy, and he's so good at them that he just never uses weapons because he doesn't need them. He does however carry his weighted sash which he can use as a whip or rope in combat.

All feats on his respect thread, also elected to only use Pre-Zero Hour KK because I don't know if we're compositing here. If we are, then Post-ZH brings explicit microscopic-level info analysis, being capable of performing extremely precise attack reflection while blind-folded (and pull off a harder version of that on pure instinct), and also utterly embarrassing a Kryptonian equal in a serious fight through superior skill, despite being billions of times weaker in AP and unable to hurt him at all. Earth-Prime is weaker and only barely ties with Batman but even he has the ability to boost his power to insane levels with proper focus and technique. I haven't researched Rebirth Armorr yet though I don't expect he has too much.
 
Tomfer said:
Most of these "skills" feats are straight up haxs disguising themselves as skill and pretty much everyone already agreed upon that.

Kenshiro fans keep on missing.
Click to expand...
No way i gave alot of examples of pretty concrete skill feats, but what do you consider "skill" anyways?
 
Silvervigilant said:
No way i gave alot of examples of pretty concrete skill feats, but what do you consider "skill" anyways?
Click to expand...
Anything that doesn't have anime bullshit like curing blindness, lmao. You just cannot tell me with a straight face that you're so good at martial arts that you can make someone blind see again via poking his face.

And I'm only talking about this one because its the most funny to me.
 
Tomfer said:
Anything that doesn't have anime bullshit like curing blindness, lmao. You just cannot tell me with a straight face that you're so good at martial arts that you can make someone blind see again via poking his face.

And I'm only talking about this one because its the most funny to me.
Click to expand...
Yeah Hokuto Shinken has these impossible kind of stuff, but there's alot more than just these hax stuff on my post
 
Tomfer said:
Most of these "skills" feats are straight up haxs disguising themselves as skill and pretty much everyone already agreed upon that.

Kenshiro fans keep on missing.
Click to expand...
well, what's the line?
I'm pretty sure utilizing herald level pressure points and throwing a daxamite out of the solar system is also not really skill at this point
 
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