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Should Souls be default and also Medaka Box and Spirituality

100% agree with Ricsi as well.

I could legitimately say humans would be immune to something like Chaos manipulation if it's mystical/supernatural in nature since here that stuff doesn't exist nor the souls or minds in the sense they affect with their corruption.

Normal human noping Chaos Gods hax/influence on their beings when? Not everyone is suddenly the Numidium.
 
Just going to say that we are memeing at this point. I'm saying this so that no one claim strawman-ing because of how ridicolous the statements we say get, 'lright?
 
Plot manipulation powers would also be useless in a ton of verses since very few of them ever acknowledge the existence of a plot and constantly deny it with "This is reality!". Thus those characters have no plot to be manipulated by the same standards.

Downgrade Featherine.
 
If a verse makes no claims, that is one thing, but if a verse has shown signs that they don't have something that is another issue. If there is an atheist world then we should not apply souls to them, as that would be artificially modifying their cosmology.
 
Medaka box has no statements whatsoever saying they don't have souls though.

And they do have a bunch of very close equivalents to an afterlife.
 
My argument is that the verse's cosmology is materialistic, and if they do have a soul, then it functions vastly differently from what we would usually call a soul

Only in a dream world, which is probably physical anyway
 
Okay, putting a pause but not end to the memes for a second let's just clear everything up.

We aren't trying to conclude facts about a verse but rather just trying to make fun matchups between two characters from fundamentally different verses.

With that being the objective of assuming souls, you should only need the possibility of souls existing, not explicit evidence.
 
Iapitus The Impaler said:
If a verse makes no claims, that is one thing, but if a verse has shown signs that they don't have something that is another issue. If there is an atheist world then we should not apply souls to them, as that would be artificially modifying their cosmology.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I did repeat that quiet a few times.

Tough, it also depends on what is defined as a soul. There are some verses that view the soul as the very concept of someone's being, so equating that to a more mainstream defintion of the soul asnd saying that the former can't affect the latter would still be a strech. (This is the whole "2-A reality warping=/Fireball, magic or not, in my previous comment)


I also think we ahould remove the gem not having a soul from their profile. It's never mentioned in the show, and is only given because they aren't biological in nature (And oh boy does that not aply to so many soul definitions across verses).
 
@Iapitus Don't think so. Her Mother had been dead for a long while, and she specifically states she's just borrowing the space that Ajimu created.
Medaka-box-3862495
Hato also straight up refers to herself as a lost soul and warns Medaka of finding the same fate if she keeps going this way.

Medaka-box-Soul
 
Hato also fully admits that this is her after her death already being a matter of fact, so it feels pretty clear cut to me.
Medaka-box-Hato2
 
Chartate101 said:
Lost soul is an idiom
Click to expand...
Under this context, no it isn't. There's a literal dead person coming back to talk to someone and musing about her lack of spirit to keep fighting even after it, after the person she was talking to left back to the real word post a near-death experience that had her heart stopping and everyone living saying "Yup now she's dead.".

This is the last situation or type of context in fiction where we can say "Oh, this is semantics." when it goes 100% against what we're seeing.

And what the plot tells us too,, unless we say now that Medaka's mother was actually alive and the whole plot of the series was a prank on Medaka.
 
Iapitus The Impaler said:
Resurrection is impossible. I know that may sound ridicules at face value considering Kumagawa exists, but the verse draws a clear distinction. It actually goes out of its way to distinguish itself from something like Dragon Ball, and actually calls it out by name. The only way to bring someone back from the dead in Medaka Box is to make it so they never died at all. Essentially, there is no basis to bring them back once they truly pass on
Click to expand...
About this part, there are actually instances where they can revive, without methods that make them never have died in the vein of All Fiction.

There is Kotobuki Joutou who can revert already dead people back to life as she did to Zenkichi by reversing his body's time back to two days before. However, since this is a style and the method does consist of returning them to a time before they died, one could argue it "also makes so they never died" so I'll ignore this one. Just listing for showing of other instances and for the fact that, before Kotobuki revived him, Zenkichi was still fully aware of his existence in the Darkness.
HitoDead1
He mentions there was "no heaven, nor hell or the world and he wasn't in the middle school classroom" either but *he* as Zenkichi was still fully aware of himself despite his body having already died so it definitely wasn't biological functions. Something more than that was still conscious, despite him admitting to being dead. He also went and heard the voices of everyone calling to him which again shows something beyond what the body functions would allow for a corpse in a purely scientifical sense.
HitoDead2
Other than Kotobuki's Nursery Rhyme, there's also the fact that Ajimu was confirmed dead by Hanten and still, was stated she would come back once Iihiko's power stopped preventing things he destroyed from being restored upon his defeat.

Finally - if we ignore that one as well since it's about Ajimu, there's Medaka's own Five Forks. It can revive people as she specifically used it to revive her dead friends after Iihiko's defeat and they were confirmed dead here.
AllDead5
Five Forks does not make things go back to a state before something happened, it can inflict or heal damage/diseases taken. Aoki was specifically stated to be given this skill to prevent anyone from dying and in Kumagawa's fight against Munakata it was also said Aoki could fix him up "as long as he wasn't dead".
MBFive Forks
Thus, Medaka did revive already dead people without making it "so they never died", with a Minus skill - she straight up revived them with Five Forks as soon as there wasn't the effect of Irreversible destruction saying "no u, what's broken stays broken just like this ability".

Coupling these facts with Medaka's encounter with her dead mother above, by Hato borrowing the space from Ajimu to meet her, Hato's owm statement about being a lost soul and how she was still there musing about her Death after Medaka had already returned to the living, I actually fully believe the verse doesn't go out of its way to see things in a purely scientifical manner or standpoint in regards to what comes after death/its spirituality.

Also as a smaaaal sidenote that isn't all that relevant for this, Iihiko fought an actual Witch once as one of his notorious opponents of the past. And Hanten refers to him as "a hero like those of fairy-tales". So while we have no info on said Witch or Iihiko's adventures Give us a spin-off!!!, there *probably* have been magic users in his own thousands of years prior to the series, too.
 
Since I was asked to comment here, no, souls shouldn't be default for beings who are inherently inanimate beings or beings who have blatant feats or statements of not having souls. Soulhaxing something that does not traditionally have a soul is a feat for the kind of soulhax for that character, it is not a standard that every other fictional verse to has to follow. Making soulless beings vulnerable to soulhax is the equivalent of making, say, gem physiology specific hax work on characters of any physiology.
 
>souls shouldn't be default for beings who are inherently inanimate

So a verse that can explicitly affect inanimate objects because "everything has a soul" in the verse would be unable to do squat because they aren't organic?

>have blatant feats or statements of not having souls

Not relevant here, at all. And was already discussed and agreed on in the thread above.

>Soulhaxing something that does not traditionally have a soul is a feat for the kind of soulhax for that character

Not how it works. There is no set rule about what souls are like, because souls are fictitious by nature. This is like deciding what can and cannot be labeled magic. It varies case by case.

>it is not a standard that every other fictional verse to has to follow

You are the one suggesting a standard for souls to follow. And Verse Equal exists for a reason. Plenty verses have demons that are not ever shown to be weak against holy stuff. Don't see you arguing that Panty and Stocking will be unable to affect them. Same here, verse shows objects having souls? Bam, objects can be soulhaxed unless they are stated to not have a soul.

>Making soulless beings vulnerable to soulhax is the equivalent of making, say, gem physiology specific hax work on characters of any physiology.

Except there is no proof that they are soulless, or that they have a soul. At which point, you get back to the "real world tree immune to 99% haxes GG".


Albane got what I am saying pretty well, so I'll copypaste it here:

FateAlbane said:
@Ricsi Just to confirm this, you're saying by the logic you're presenting, Gems would be considered with souls against Riordanverse because beings there which are comparable to/share the same characteristics they have displayed can be soul manip'd or have a soul.
Whereas you're saying against SE they would have no soul since SE has no showing of innorganic beings having souls or soul manip that works on innorganics, correct?

Unless they have an statement and/or feat of being without souls to work universally, that is.
Click to expand...
 
My bad for the one where they are stated to have no soul. I tough this was the SU hread. Yes, if they have statements of no soul, then no soul no matter what.
 
If it has no soul it cannot be soulhaxed

Panty and Stocking don't do extra damage to demons so I'm not sure why you're using them as an example
 
WeeklyBattles said:
If it has no soul it cannot be soulhaxed
Panty and Stocking don't do extra damage to demons so I'm not sure why you're using them as an example
Click to expand...
Yeah.

Was it their weapon not working on not demons? You get the point regardless.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
If it has no soul it cannot be soulhaxed
Panty and Stocking don't do extra damage to demons so I'm not sure why you're using them as an example
Click to expand...
  • conventionally soul haxed
there are characters who have soul hax that would work on people without souls
 
@Ricsi Their weapons cant kill non-spiritual beings but they can still hurt then, and they can in fact kill demons
 
Chartate101 said:
That shouldn't make resistance to conventional soul hax any less true. Indexing>battles
Click to expand...
Are you delibaratly ignoring that conventional soulhax does not exist? It was repeated several times by now.

And not only can this also be aplied to several other haxes as already said above, it's the assumption that they won't be affected by a power because they haven't shown to be vulnerable to it.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Conventional soul hax does exist. Inanimate objects do not conventionally have souls
Click to expand...
False. My Great Grandma lived believing that every object has a soul and needs to be treated properly due to it.

You cannot make set rules for something fictitious that changes in every story. Want to also put rules on what is conventional magic then?
 
No, but we have "conventional mind hax". Sure, really weird mindhax and effect those without minds, but MOST fictions agree you need a mind to be mindhaxed
 
Chartate101 said:
Nice anecdote, but what good does it do?
Click to expand...
It shows that taking a fictitous idea that changes depending the differenig beliefs and setting rules on it does not work.

There is no possible way to say what normal soul manipulation would work like, because there is no way to correctly define it.

It's no different than trying to define what is and isn't traditional magic.


The traditional mindhax would be the biological one, tecnically, but ain't no verse caring about that, right?
 
I really hope youre not seriously trying to argue using a belief system. By your logic nothing has a soul because i live believing that souls do not exist.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
I really hope youre not seriously trying to argue using a belief system. By your logic nothing has a soul because i live believing that souls do not exist.
Click to expand...
Dude, not what I'm saying at all. Since it doesn't exist in the real world as far as we can tell, it changes between verses in mechanics. You know, case by case.

Which means that saying that traditional soul manip only works on biological entites is absolutely arbitrary.
 
You're argument is contradictory my guy, youre simultaneously arguing that you cant have a standard while also arguing for a standard to be made
 
What standard am I arguing for dude?

I am saying that it should be case by case if it works or not, and that unless there is a statement about characters not having souls, you should not assume either.
 
That all fictional characters should be assumed to have souls in versus threads even if they don't have them in their own verse
 
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