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Should Souls be default and also Medaka Box and Spirituality

Ricsi-viragosi said:
-snip-
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"Well, several disagree with wok, since chakra is litirally an energy you have as long as you have functioning cells and can think. (Being able to use it on the other hand..,)"

They disagree with verse equaliztion? So the should disagree with giving them souls because of the verse they fight have souls.

"And don't act like it's soul manipulation the only thing here. Or do you think that everyone has a metaphysical mind? "

This is not a part of the topic listed in the title and I've already said I am only interested in the "should souls be default" debate. You're adding those things yourself.

"Yeah, and I replied to him saying that I disagree."

My bad, I didn't see that.

"Yes. Verse Equalization is the act of making two verses similar enough to be able to interact. We give others metaphysical minds, souls, assume that they have a fate tha can be manipulated, etc."

I'm not here to argue metaphysical minds or fate only about the souls.
 
And yet your argument was "Why are souls different? Why are soul haxors entitled for their ability on those without it to work but Naruto characters can't use it against people like John Wick."

So I explained that Wok saying that naruto can't affect others like that is not exactly agreed on (Which makes the second part null) and that soul hax is not special.

You not being interested in metaphysical minds doesn't matter, what matters is that there are several abilities that much like soul manip, are assumed to work due to verse equal. Giving someone a soul is just like giving them a fate or a metaphysical mind.
 
Wait, how have I contridicted my stance on this?

"Why are souls different? Why are soul haxors entitled for their ability on those without it to work but Naruto characters can't use it against people like John Wick."

Isn't verse equaliztion for people who have comparable energys? And if they don't have they energy, they don't have it?
 
I litirally gave you exemples that prove otherwise.

Fate, mind and many other manipulation assume others to have stuff that they don't canonically have.

And trust me, we are not going to make 90% of the characters on wiki immune to several haxes because they aren't stated to have things like this.
 
Mind cannot be lumped in there as it is pretty easy to assume a human, animal, etc that has a physical form should have a brain, Fate is one thing that can be comparated to Plot maniulation.

Can you give me a few more?
 
Did you not read what I wrote? 99% of the mind-hax in here affects the metaphysical mind, not the brain.


And? Do you think assuming that someone has all of their actions already written down into a plot is less of an assumption than someone having a soul? There is no fate or plot in the real world, nor does anyone have a character file for data manipulators.
 
Look, I'll be honest.

I'm out of my depth.

This is something for a staff like Ryu or Wok. I'm gonna just drop this because I'm sure this will take up a lot of my time and I have finals coming up.

Before I go, the reason I say fate manipulation can be enterchanged with plot is because all fictional verses have plots, which are literally the fate of the characters and obviously people in the real world don't have a plot or fate so... there you go.
 
Real World is a verse that can be used in a debate too, and no plot manipulator can manipulate the actual plot.

Simply put tough, we assume others to have souls, metaphysical minds, a fate, data and etc. to allow fights with the users of this abilities to be able to do stuff in fights.
 
If we allow soul mapit due to verse equal I guess thats fine, but not because of the frankly bullshit argument that souls are assumed by default
 
@The Smasher That is a really stupid argument.

@GreyFang82 Chakra's different because as far as I remember, not every ordinary human in those verses has chakra by default, so we can't assume that people like Saitama in other verses have it by default.

Some more examples that assume things people don't canonically have, SCP-3043 can rewrite the stories inside people's heads and erase people's stories, even if they don't canonically have those things. Monika can edit people's character files even if they don't canonically have them.
 
I dunno. Feels odd to me to say they (MB Characters) have no souls or spirituality. Ajimu herself has some soul related skills like Bashing Passion which is a "spirit punching skill", Nearby See-Through which is a "spirit governing skill".

Portable Soul which is a "Skill that Absorb Souls" and so on.

I know the counter argument present to this is that we don't take Ajimu's skill list at face value. While that is very much true, her having Skills which mention souls and spirit constitute an in-verse acknowledgement of such terms.

Also the verse doesn't necessarily go out of its way to deny existence of souls and spirituality. It's just more centered around Biological and more science related powersets than mystical ones but mystical elements are still there to some extent.

And there's also the fact that they still end up in *some* place after they "die". Medaka's Mother was dead for a long while and Medaka still found her on the other side when she came close to dying as well. Whatever that plane is, spiritual/of souls, of consciousness or dreamlike, I suppose it's up in the air.

It was also stated that Ajimu was dead for realz by Hanten, but later that she would be able to return once Iihiko lost and his destruction became reversible.

Nonetheless, I'm neutral on this one. I'll go with the majority.
 
In our real life verse we have terms for souls despite them not, on a scientific level, not existing. So thats hardly a good argument
 
We consider real life characters to be affected by Soul Manip, no?

I'm pretty sure nobody would say CH is immune to soul manipulation if he went against someone with said power because "Our science hasn't proven that souls exist yet".
 
Actually we aren't to consider IRL characters as susceptible to soul manip. Cal already agreed to that above, and he disagrees with the general soul stuff.

Since it's IRL we can use harsher proof standards. As we have no objective proof of souls, we should not assume them to exist.
 
That's pretty odd, depending on one's standpoint. This isn't me comparing mystical or theological aspects to science, but since a ton of science related matters are also theorized rather than confirmed (Hence why people call them, well, *theories*) applying that sort of standard could lead to even some principles we use and assume to be true nowadays being disqualified.

But I digress since this could become a wasp hive I'm not willing to touch.

That said, CH and other such characters should have Immunity to Soul Manipulation added to their profiles on the basis of being considered souless then.
 
Theory in the scientific term is not the same as theory as used in common lexicon. To become an accepted theory, you need quite a lot of backing. It just represents that there is not 100% certainty more than it just being a guess.
 
"But I digress since this could become a wasp hive I'm not willing to touch."

Yeah, that's pretty much the only reason I succumbed. A war of religious views is the last thing I want on VSBW.

That said, we also need to get rid of people in a verse equalization having Chakra so Genjutsu doesn't work on anyone outside of verse, people having ki in a verse equalization so Goku can't lock on to teleport, etc.
 
We already had the thread to conclude that equalization needs something actually equivalent though.
 
Mario almost certainly has something equalizable, but not for Law and Order if it works off of manipulating something that we can't assume everyone has.
 
@Wokistan Still theories. Backing up by a lot of people doesn't necessarily make it a certainty in a Universe big enough that Humanity barely knows even 10% of the Oceans of a planet that ammounts basically to less than dust in said Universe.

By the principles of Harsher standards or Backup from multiple people, one could either extend that notion to say "Well, they can't 100% confirm those theories scientifically either" or "The idea of Souls existing is also backed up by a ton of people but can't be proven either so we're back at the beginning."

Like I said, this is one of those matters that depending on your viewpoint will make absolute sense to go in this direction, or none at all (in fact if this could be handwaved with "X has a lot of backing from people who know their stuff so it definitely is true") we would live in the world of 40k by now.
 
The word theory in science doesn't mean the same thing as how it's used generally though. It refers more to how we interpret what we observe as objective truth. While one can argue that there is no such thing as true objectivity due to everything being ever so slightly altered by the fact that everyone's frame of reference, biases, etc will all be different (Or if you want to be a solipsist and argue that because you can't technically confirm everyone else exists, they don't), it does not change the fact that these scientific "theories" have backing in what we consider as objectively true. Souls do not have that.
 
The point of the matter is that said truths are founded upon what ammounts to ridiculously small knowledge of the Universe's framework as a whole, all the same. Which is why they can change as well dramatically as time passes.

That's the very reason why science itself always has clashing theories or hardly ever a theory that is fully accepted by all researchers and how things are always being questioned.

We do have to take a standard for these things so we can go somewhere of course, I fully understand that. But claiming that anything science has said is set in stone or "objectively true" is a paradox, since at that point you're basically contradicting every scientist that has ever existed in the world.
 
Hence why I said "Depending on your viewpoint it either makes absolute sense or none at all."

Which is also why I said this matter can be a wasphive, hence this is my last reply on the subject.
 
Wokistan said:
Mario almost certainly has something equalizable, but not for Law and Order if it works off of manipulating something that we can't assume everyone has.
Click to expand...
If you ignore the intricacies of their power system maybe, which is the very same argument used to knock down "souls are standard assumption IRL" because not everyone conceptualizes them as being the same.
 
If there's no evidence of something existing why should it be assumed that they have it? We shouldn't assume a character has an aspect to themselves without some evidence backing it.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
If there's no evidence of something existing why should it be assumed that they have it? We shouldn't assume a character has an aspect to themselves without some evidence backing it.
Click to expand...
Because this same logic can be applied to a metaphysical mind. 90% mindhax in fiction is not biological but instead affects the "mind" without even touching the brain.

Guess real world people are now immune to mindhax like that because they don't have a metaphysical mind, immune to soul manipulation due to the lack of a soul, immune to information manipulation because reality is not provably made out of information (let alone binaries like 99% of fiction makes it seem), most fate manipulation (see manipulation. Unless they showed to actually forced onto someone fateless), etc.

The amount of hax that would be nullified this way is so incredibly large that I could make a bigger wall of text than Kirby has.


Also, no, Madara's (shringan in general) is stated to directly affect the mind, which is why it's the badass genjutsu that took away anything that made kurenai notable as a female naruto character (the norm, pretty much).
 
> Because this same logic can be applied to a metaphysical mind.

A character having a single thought bubble or just showcasing the ability to think would prove they have a conscious that would be suseptable the most mental powers

> immune to soul manipulation due to the lack of a soul,

Yes

> information manipulation because reality is not provably made out of information

I thought blackholes and other stuff proved that information exists. But if its not proven, then yes

> fate manipulation (see manipulation. Unless they showed to actually forced onto someone fateless)

Isn't fate just a bunch of actions beyond any single person's control? I don't see why that would be effected
 
Not how it works. Someone's sentience comes from the cells contained within the brain. There is not metaphysical mind, which is what madara's eye based genjutsu directly affects for example. And again, this same logic can be applied to the soul as well:

(As I said above, what a soul is varies depending the verses included. For example, if you had a fight between soul eater character and something like dragon ball character, it's hard to say that the souls are equatable despite sharing name. [Least we equalize 2-A reality warping to fireballs because "it's magic"]). But say soul eater, the soul is what happens when someone has a mind and a body. If we can give a metaphysical mind, why not a soul?

Blackholes are hardly understood, but if there is a coding information behind reality it ain't binary for sure.

No. Fate manipulation is most often the absolute end of something, unchangeable in nature. An example would be plot manipulation, which is literally fate with a bit of fourth wall thrown in. Manipulating someones fate assumes that there is a predestined ending to them, instead of the world around them being a bunch of coincidences and butterfly effects created by their choices.


But seriously, the idea of someone automatically resisting hax because they haven't shown or been proved to be affected by such things is... bad. Here verse equal should just apply the normal way:

Verse A claims that anything that exists has a soul, from a rock to a human.

When fighting with Verse B, they will be assumed to have a soul unless they don't fit the criteria for verse A (Nonexistent physiology is the dirst thing that comes to mind) or if Verse B makes it clear that someone is souless.

Same applies for most haxes of this nature. If fate is undoubtedly proven to not exist for a verse, verse equal will not change that.
 
Risci, I never thought I'd say this, but I one hundred percent agree with everything you just said. Especially this sentence:

"But seriously, the idea of someone automatically resisting hax because they haven't shown or been proved to be affected by such things is... bad."

This is truly true. It's completely asinine to give someone a resistance due to a lack of information.
 
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