Ajimu Upgrade Undo

[Agnaa]

This seeks to largely undo this thread which was passed without the approval of any staff members knowledgeable on Medaka Box, those being @Catzlaflame @Antvasima @DontTalkDT and myself.

While I was notified...

He was the first that I called on his wall. Since he didn't respond I think he's not interested.

@Agnaa

It was only done in the two ways which I explicitly say not to contact me, from the top of my message wall:

Currently in a nadir of interest. Not reading my profile or notifications. If there's anything important, DM me.

Anyway, pinging the thread's original creator and staff members who voted @Magicomethkuon @Elizhaa @Dereck03 @GarrixianXD

And onto the claims of the thread....

• Social Influencing: All of the things listed are gross misconstruals of the events, and don't actually lead to Social Influencing:
  • "Ajimu has 100,000 people working with the Flask Plan." That's having an extraordinarily large business, but it's not SI.
  • "Ajimu has terminals she can influence." These people are her, being able to influence them isn't really SI.
  • "5 of them steer the academy in the direction she had wanted." It's hard to respond to this, since it's linked without a scan, but it's just not what happens with the events of the series. That group of five lost the election and so Zenkichi was in charge of that for most of the rest of the series. And shortly after they lost, Ajimu gave up her schemes, so this just... doesn't match with the story at all.
  • "Ajimu orchestrated a scenario where Medaka failed in the election with 2% of the votes. While before, Medaka got 98% of the vote through charisma." Ajimu managed to beat her by nullifying that luck, implying that the earlier win of 98% involved a lot of that luck.
  • EDIT 3: After some arguments in the thread, I've come to believe that this statement is sufficient for SI, but I'd still want to remove some other parts of the justification from the page.
• Reality Warping: Seems a bit broad based on the one feat, and the general context of the story; she seems to get a lot of stuff done through skills, so to take this one scan as generally applicable wish granting and reality warping seems like a bit much. Especially when she knows someone who can give people any superpower they want.
• Magic: I'm fine with this actually, but part of the reasoning sucks. One of her skills having a comment by the author in the guidebook does not give us enough information to use those as evidence. The justification should be rewritten.
• Mind Manipulation: All of this is wrong. We don't use the text of those walls of skills for reasons I've previously outlined here. The "power to bring the consciousness of a dead person to her" is wholly misunderstanding stuff that isn't even said in that meh translation; "I took your conscious away" is very clearly saying that she just made him unconscious. You can see the improved translation here. Plus, it completely misses the context; at this point in time Ajimu didn't have a physical form, and only appeared to people when they were unconscious and on the brink of death. In this case, she made Zenkichi unconscious so he wouldn't die from shock, and was therefore able to see him; likely in the same way as she sees Kumagawa, by having him see the version of her in his heart.
• Bone Manipulation: I think it's a massive stretch to say that this visual shows Boneless Farm.
• Marksmanship: Again, we don't use those walls of skills.
• Non-Physical Interaction: This seems really out of context. I have no idea why you'd take engaging with the environment of a dream world from within the dream world as a feat of NPI. That's just incoherent.

I'd also add that many of these changes, if they were actually applied accurately, would've resulted in a plethora of other changes to the profile. If we used the dream world feats, she should've gotten a solid 4-C AP and MFTL+ speed rating. If we used the visuals of those walls of text, we should've given her Transformation for this (EDIT 1: Turns out she already has that under Shapeshifting, oops) and Metal Manipulation for this. I'm actually fine with those latter two, so I'll add them if others agree.

EDIT 2: In an aspect that isn't simply undoing that previous thread, I'd also like to give Ajimu Healing and Resurrection, since she offered to use her skills to heal all of a dead Hitoyoshi's wounds.

In short, remove SI, RW, Mind Manip, Bone Manip, Marksmanship, and NPI. Change the Magic and SI justifications, and add Transformation and Metal Manip, Healing, and Resurrection.

Edit Count: 3

 

[Magicomethkuon]

This seeks to largely undo this thread which was passed without the approval of any staff members knowledgeable on Medaka Box, those being @Catzlaflame @Antvasima @DontTalkDT and myself.

While I was notified...


It was only done in the two ways which I explicitly say not to contact me, from the top of my message wall:

Anyway, pinging the thread's original creator and staff members who voted @Magicomethkuon @Elizhaa @Dereck03 @GarrixianXD

And onto the claims of the thread....

• Social Influencing: All of the things listed are gross misconstruals of the events, and don't actually lead to Social Influencing:
  • "Ajimu has 100,000 people working with the Flask Plan." That's having an extraordinarily large business, but it's not SI.
  • "Ajimu has terminals she can influence." These people are her, being able to influence them isn't really SI.
  • "5 of them steer the academy in the direction she had wanted." It's hard to respond to this, since it's linked without a scan, but it's just not what happens with the events of the series. That group of five lost the election and so Zenkichi was in charge of that for most of the rest of the series. And shortly after they lost, Ajimu gave up her schemes, so this just... doesn't match with the story at all.
  • "Ajimu orchestrated a scenario where Medaka failed in the election with 2% of the votes. While before, Medaka got 98% of the vote through charisma." Ajimu managed to beat her by nullifying that luck, implying that the earlier win of 98% involved a lot of that luck.
• Reality Warping: Seems a bit broad based on the one feat, and the general context of the story; she seems to get a lot of stuff done through skills, so to take this one scan as generally applicable wish granting and reality warping seems like a bit much. Especially when she knows someone who can give people any superpower they want.
• Magic: I'm fine with this actually, but part of the reasoning sucks. One of her skills having a comment by the author in the guidebook does not give us enough information to use those as evidence. The justification should be rewritten.
• Mind Manipulation: All of this is wrong. We don't use the text of those walls of skills for reasons I've previously outlined here. The "power to bring the consciousness of a dead person to her" is wholly misunderstanding stuff that isn't even said in that meh translation; "I took your conscious away" is very clearly saying that she just made him unconscious. You can see the improved translation here. Plus, it completely misses the context; at this point in time Ajimu didn't have a physical form, and only appeared to people when they were unconscious and on the brink of death. In this case, she made Zenkichi unconscious so he wouldn't die from shock, and was therefore able to see him; likely in the same way as she sees Kumagawa, by having him see the version of her in his heart.
• Bone Manipulation: I think it's a massive stretch to say that this visual shows Boneless Farm.
• Marksmanship: Again, we don't use those walls of skills.
• Non-Physical Interaction: This seems really out of context. I have no idea why you'd take engaging with the environment of a dream world from within the dream world as a feat of NPI. That's just incoherent.

I'd also add that many of these changes, if they were actually applied accurately, would've resulted in a plethora of other changes to the profile. If we used the dream world feats, she should've gotten a solid 4-C AP and MFTL+ speed rating. If we used the visuals of those walls of text, we should've given her Transformation for this and Metal Manipulation for this. I'm actually fine with those latter two, so I'll add them if others agree.

In short, remove SI, RW, Mind Manip, Bone Manip, Marksmanship, and NPI. Change the Magic justification, and add Transformation and Metal Manip.

And right when I thought I didn't need to interact with threads anymore. But nice to see you respond!

• Social Influencing: All of the things listed are gross misconstruals of the events, and don't actually lead to Social Influencing:
  
  • "Ajimu has 100,000 people working with the Flask Plan." That's having an extraordinarily large business, but it's not SI.
• Gross misconstruals of the events. .........Oooookay? Oddly confrontational way to word it when I said exactly what it is and let people judge the feat. That being said, the argument here misses the point that Ajimu has all those terminals and through the terminals she can also influence the rest of the population that aren't terminals. Not sure if you have different standards in mind than those that are on the page, but even characters like Mr. Satan qualify. If she can influence that vast a group of people, has the rep and countless terminals of herself. Terminals which in turn allow her to indirectly influence most if not all of humanity long as she wants to, why would she not qualify?
  • "Ajimu has terminals she can influence." These people are her, being able to influence them isn't really SI.
• Same as above. It surprises me however that you want to disregard the terminals entirely as well, when they have been shown several times in the succession arc to also have the capability of acting independently or being their own people as said to Kumagawa one time. Forgot by which one of the terminals it was and this notification came when I was about to sleep so I'm not checking the specific manga panel right now, but I can later if you need it.
  • "5 of them steer the academy in the direction she had wanted." It's hard to respond to this, since it's linked without a scan, but it's just not what happens with the events of the series. That group of five lost the election and so Zenkichi was in charge of that for most of the rest of the series. And shortly after they lost, Ajimu gave up her schemes, so this just... doesn't match with the story at all.
• Alright, but not really. In this section you are pulling my argument in a direction opposite to what I was getting at, which makes it look a lot less convincing than what I was actually arguing for. The five terminals were all that Ajimu used and needed, for the purpose of dissolving Medaka's otherwise unbreakable bond with Zenkichi. Not to make them win the election. She used the terminals to subtly create the scenario and situation where they replace Zenkich and he is gone from Medaka's council, which in turn creates further dissolution, then her plans of getting Zenkichi to join her side when approached would succeed, so that through him she could complete the final impossibility of beating the main character. And exactly as you have said, yes indeed, Zenkichi won the election. Exactly as Ajimu had planned. She gave up on it for entirely different reasons, not that she was unable to accomplish what she set out to do and with the terminals.
  • "Ajimu orchestrated a scenario where Medaka failed in the election with 2% of the votes. While before, Medaka got 98% of the vote through charisma." Ajimu managed to beat her by nullifying that luck, implying that the earlier win of 98% involved a lot of that luck.
• This is the one point that I'm not particularly against accepting a correction in, all things considered. Zenkichi's Devil Style may well have nullified Medaka's luck. So this one is a possibility yeah.
• Reality Warping: Seems a bit broad based on the one feat, and the general context of the story; she seems to get a lot of stuff done through skills, so to take this one scan as generally applicable wish granting and reality warping seems like a bit much. Especially when she knows someone who can give people any superpower they want.
• Reality Warping is tricky and I don't particularly mind if you feel like it should be a possible, limited or too vague for the standards here. I do believe it seems oddly specific to be done through a skill, or at least that we haven't seen her do something like turn another person into an idol or mention granting a wish verbatim. I suggest reality warping because it seems like the one to align most with it, but I'm open to suggestions if there is a better approach.
• Magic: I'm fine with this actually, but part of the reasoning sucks. One of her skills having a comment by the author in the guidebook does not give us enough information to use those as evidence. The justification should be rewritten.
• Honestly, I have to disagree with your perspective on this matter. If it were any other character I'd agree but Ajimu has so many just because skills that this one having an author statement makes it more solid and consistent than the other skills without any corroborating evidence or statement to serve as support.
• Mind Manipulation: All of this is wrong. We don't use the text of those walls of skills for reasons I've previously outlined here. The "power to bring the consciousness of a dead person to her" is wholly misunderstanding stuff that isn't even said in that meh translation; "I took your conscious away" is very clearly saying that she just made him unconscious. You can see the improved translation here. Plus, it completely misses the context; at this point in time Ajimu didn't have a physical form, and only appeared to people when they were unconscious and on the brink of death. In this case, she made Zenkichi unconscious so he wouldn't die from shock, and was therefore able to see him; likely in the same way as she sees Kumagawa, by having him see the version of her in his heart.
• This interpretation of the events also rings strange. Counter-intuitive that we should conclude that Ajimu was the one to make Zenkichi unconscious, when in the very scans that you have linked Ajimu herself already had mentioned that Zenkichi nearly died from the shock. It seems much more likely that he was already unconscious and she pulled his consciousness in. Also in the same set of pages Ajimu mentions that Kumagawa ends up in the same room each time that he dies (before returning with All Fiction). Also in the Jet Black Bride arc, Momozono specifically seals Zenkichi so that he wouldn't end up in Ajimu's room and thus she could not resurrect him, after he is impaled through the chest with a spear and dies. I'd get the scans on these, it's late I'm half asleep and I welcome you to refresh my memory if there is really something that I'm missing here. And I agree with disregarding the walls of text on their own, but Ajimu has shown sufficient interactions with consciousnesses that I don't think it's a stretch to have that one indexed. It becomes corroborating evidence.
• Bone Manipulation: I think it's a massive stretch to say that this visual shows Boneless Farm.
• This feels like argument from incredulity, because Boneless Farm is one of the skills being used in the background of this same panel. And the only thing involving bones as far as I can see. I don't understand why we should assume this as anything else.
• Marksmanship: Again, we don't use those walls of skills.
• The crux of the argument was having all of those skills and using them to defeat another character who claimed to have his specialty be in wielding guns, not the skill wall on its own.
• Non-Physical Interaction: This seems really out of context. I have no idea why you'd take engaging with the environment of a dream world from within the dream world as a feat of NPI. That's just incoherent.
• She's still seen beating the shit out of disembodied consciousnesses. The star point I can concede on, although Ajimu did do other things within that dream sequence that are out of the ordinary like handing a couple of powers to Kumagawa, which made me consider it something worth mentioning, a more unique situation. So for this last one I'll apologize yeah, if it's that badly against the standards of these forums.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Momozono specifically seals Zenkichi so that he wouldn't end up in Ajimu's room and thus she could not resurrect him, after he is impaled through the chest with a spear and very much dies. I'd get the scans on these, it's late I'm half asleep and I welcome you to refresh my memory if there is really something that I'm missing here.

Got the scans right here.

Neutral on the rest of the stuff mentioned (except the additions of Transformation and Metal Manip)

 

[Magicomethkuon]

If we used the visuals of those walls of text, we should've given her Transformation for this and Metal Manipulation for this. I'm actually fine with those latter two, so I'll add them if others agree.

Well, the dinosaur feat is already indexed as shapeshifting on her page, same when I made the thread. Metal manipulation sounds good.

Got the scans right here.

Neutral on the rest of the stuff mentioned (except the additions of Transformation and Metal Manip)

 

[Agnaa]

Gross misconstruals of the events. .........Oooookay? Oddly confrontational way to word it when I said exactly what it is and let people judge the feat. That being said, the argument here misses the point that Ajimu has all those terminals and through the terminals she can also influence the rest of the population that aren't terminals. Not sure if you have different standards in mind than those that are on the page, but even characters like Mr. Satan qualify. If she can influence that vast a group of people, has the rep and countless terminals of herself. Terminals which in turn allow her to indirectly influence most if not all of humanity long as she wants to, why would she not qualify?

You're not really bringing up anything concrete with this, just "influencing people" is so vague that it applies to about 99% of characters in fiction. Asking a friend to come over to your house isn't SI. Without anything more concrete, I can't say much more.

Same as above. It surprises me however that you want to disregard the terminals entirely as well, when they have been shown several times in the succession arc to also have the capability of acting independently or being their own people as said to Kumagawa one time. Forgot by which one of the terminals it was and this notification came when I was about to sleep so I'm not checking the specific manga panel right now, but I can later if you need it.

The relationship is admittedly quite weird, but I don't think it's solid enough for SI.

Alright, but not really. In this section you are pulling my argument in a direction opposite to what I was getting at, which makes it look a lot less convincing than what I was actually arguing for. The five terminals were all that Ajimu used and needed, for the purpose of dissolving Medaka's otherwise unbreakable bond with Zenkichi. Not to make them win the election. She used the terminals to subtly create the scenario and situation where they replace Zenkich and he is gone from Medaka's council, which in turn creates further dissolution, then her plans of getting Zenkichi to join her side when approached would succeed, so that through him she could complete the final impossibility of beating the main character. And exactly as you have said, yes indeed, Zenkichi won the election. Exactly as Ajimu had planned. She gave up on it for entirely different reasons, not that she was unable to accomplish what she set out to do and with the terminals.

Kind of? But also, I don't think it was really in an SI-way. It really was as simple as just getting Medaka to hang out with some normal people. I get that it is something, but SI seems wrong, really I'd just put it more as intelligence for figuring out intricacies of her relationship with Hitoyoshi.

Reality Warping is tricky and I don't particularly mind if you feel like it should be a possible, limited or too vague for the standards here. I do believe it seems oddly specific to be done through a skill, or at least that we haven't seen her do something like turn another person into an idol or mention granting a wish verbatim. I suggest reality warping because it seems like the one to align most with it, but I'm open to suggestions if there is a better approach.

As I said, my point's that it's really too open-ended. It's done entirely off-screen with zero explanation; we don't even have the assertion that she did it without help from others. Was it as simple as just asking one of her terminals to give her training or a spotlight? Did it also involve granting herself or Saki a skill? We have no idea, so I think even a possibly is too far.

Honestly, I have to disagree with your perspective on this matter. If it were any other character I'd agree but Ajimu has so many just because skills that this one having an author statement makes it more solid and consistent than the other skills without any corroborating evidence or statement to serve as support.

No. The issues with those as described here aren't rectified by having slightly more author acknowledgement.

This interpretation of the events also rings strange. Counter-intuitive that we should conclude that Ajimu was the one to make Zenkichi unconscious, when in the very scans that you have linked Ajimu herself already had mentioned that Zenkichi nearly died from the shock. It seems much more likely that he was already unconscious and she pulled his consciousness in. Also in the same set of pages Ajimu mentions that Kumagawa ends up in the same room each time that he dies (before returning with All Fiction). Also in the Jet Black Bride arc, Momozono specifically seals Zenkichi so that he wouldn't end up in Ajimu's room and thus she could not resurrect him, after he is impaled through the chest with a spear and dies. I'd get the scans on these, it's late I'm half asleep and I welcome you to refresh my memory if there is really something that I'm missing here. And I agree with disregarding the walls of text on their own, but Ajimu has shown sufficient interactions with consciousnesses that I don't think it's a stretch to have that one indexed. It becomes corroborating evidence.

I think making him unconscious was meant to make it easier for him to live through the shock.

I disagree with your reading of those events with Momozono. Ajimu's not the resurrector of the cast; both Medaka and Kumagawa have skills that can do that. And note how Momo specifically talked about Zenkichi potentially being revived, while Ajimu's talks with people don't do that. I think that had absolutely nothing to do with Ajimu; especially considering that Ajimu was already sealed.

This feels like argument from incredulity, because Boneless Farm is one of the skills being used in the background of this same panel. And the only thing involving bones as far as I can see. I don't understand why we should assume this as anything else.

We don't get clear indication about bones being involved; we see a skull in a speech bubble while the victim gets squeezed. I think that could easily apply to a lot of other abilities in that wall; specifically, I'm Crime, Pray Have Hope, Tracking, Body Blast, Triple Terrible, Because Problem, Very Hungry, Crystal Edge, Own Goal, About Dark, Dislike, Hit Man's Identity, Sense of Wonderful, Midnight Neurosis, In No Chest, Building Consensus Block, Heart Lung, Painting Blood, and This Cool Beauty.

The crux of the argument was having all of those skills and using them to defeat another character who claimed to have his specialty be in wielding guns, not the skill wall on its own.

That dude was absolute fodder. Ajimu did not need weapon mastery to beat him. She outstats him to a laughable degree, and even has some hax in that wall of text.

She's still seen beating the shit out of disembodied consciousnesses. The star point I can concede on, although Ajimu did do other things within that dream sequence that are out of the ordinary like handing a couple of powers to Kumagawa, which made me consider it something worth mentioning, a more unique situation. So for this last one I'll apologize yeah, if it's that badly against the standards of these forums.

She's also one, so I just don't see that as too relevant. Even if it does qualify, it feels like a technicality.

Usually stuff like this is useful because it can be used to interact with characters that aren't otherwise interactible, or to bypass durability, and this doesn't seem to help with either. If a character was invulnerable because their consciousness is separate from their body, and every other part couldn't be hurt, bringing them to that room would presumably also maintain that separation; she still wouldn't be able to hurt their body-representation, and would need to track down and gain NPI on the actual consciousness. If that makes any sense.

Well, the dinosaur feat is already indexed as shapeshifting on her page, same when I made the thread. Metal manipulation sounds good.

Ah doh, I missed that from a quick look. I'll edit the transformation part out then.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Thanks for your time, again. Will answer tomorrow, soon as I'm back online.

 

[Catzlaflame]

@Agnaa @Magicomethkuon

As far as I’ve understood, MagicCome is proposing SI in 2 distinct ways.

(1) SI via the influence the terminals can have over society and (2) SI because of the terminals “relationship” with Ajimu


- For POINT 1, they seem to be arguing that even a negligible level of “influence” (I.e., simple word of mouth) is noteworthy when it’s done by millions of people. SI is one of those weird hax where scale can actually determine if something meets the criteria for the ability or not. Influence, by definition is just the “ability to have an effect on something.” Though for our purposes, it obviously has to be noteworthy. Say I tell someone about my company… that’s not really influential. However, if MILLIONS of people under my influence tell others about my company… that’s a different story. This is like what’s described under the “Social Position” section of the SI page.

On POINT 1: I agree with Magic


- For POINT 2, the argument is that Ajimu has SI because of the influence she excerpts on the actual Terminals themselves. I think this scan does a brilliant job at depicting the problem with this. Although, yes, they do retain a level of individuality… we get outright confirmation that they are BETTER described as Ajimu herself than simply her “underlings.” Essentially, The origin of Ajimu’s influence over them is more supernatural than simple social influence.

On POINT 2: I agree w/ Agnaa


- On the point about Reality warping, Magic states that making someone an idol is too specific to be done by an individual skill, but I disagree. Ajimu’s abilities are EXTREMELY specific. She literally has a skill dedicated to counting how many skills she’s used lol.

Final opinion: I agree w/ Agnaa

- For the NPI, I can understand Agnaa’s point that it’s probably just the author not accounting for every plausible extension of the setting being a dream world… regardless, though, being non-physical yourself doesn’t contradict you having NPI.

Final opinion: I’d be fine with a “Possibly NPI”

This is what stands out too me at a quick glance, will review other stuff when I have more time.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Alright, I got some time.

You're not really bringing up anything concrete with this, just "influencing people" is so vague that it applies to about 99% of characters in fiction. Asking a friend to come over to your house isn't SI. Without anything more concrete, I can't say much more.

I think that it's concrete. Surely if I ask one friend to come over, that isn't SI. But in her case the amount of friends that she can ask to come over are an immense percentage of mankind. By her own words, most people in the world have a terminal near them. It is thus a foregone conclusion that even if Ajimu weren't ever actively trying to influence society, she would always be making it happen even passively, by sheer amount of people that she and her terminals are connected to on a daily basis.

The relationship is admittedly quite weird, but I don't think it's solid enough for SI.

If under any scenario she decides to mobilize all of her terminals towards something, she would have an unfair advantage that was compared to military advantage in war. Qualifying her thus under the social position and reputation type, with some elements of the leadership type by leading all the terminals and those connected to the flask plan. Or at least, that's my perspective on it so I'll leave it to everyone's judgment same as before.

Kind of? But also, I don't think it was really in an SI-way. It really was as simple as just getting Medaka to hang out with some normal people. I get that it is something, but SI seems wrong, really I'd just put it more as intelligence for figuring out intricacies of her relationship with Hitoyoshi.

But the 600 terminals moment also shows that if she wants a result out of something, she will mobilize as many terminals as she needs to in order to help steer the end result towards the outcome of her desire without anyone else suspecting it. Her quote about being a person that destroys bonds shows that as well. Although I am surprised that this particular feat would be brought into question, when even something as simple as being able to blackmail others is accepted in the page as one of the methods to obtain the ability.

And Ajimu also says that she has easily achieved this all by manipulating people that she picked up from nowhere and nothing else.

As I said, my point's that it's really too open-ended. It's done entirely off-screen with zero explanation; we don't even have the assertion that she did it without help from others. Was it as simple as just asking one of her terminals to give her training or a spotlight? Did it also involve granting herself or Saki a skill? We have no idea, so I think even a possibly is too far.

I was under the impression that possible ratings are for when something may be the case and there's at least a number of pointers towards that but it's not particularly clear. Which, does seem to me to be what is happening here. Wish granting has been listed before as reality warping for characters. With that in mind, it's at least a possibility that reality warping was being used when the way that Ajimu words it is granting that wish. And feels like there would have been mention of it if Saki had gained a new skill, considering every other time that this happened with a character before they went on to make a mention of what the skill was. Ajimu also adds that she wouldn't grant Kumagawa's wishes in the same section of the LN. But if even that possibly (or possibly limited) is also against the standards applied here in light of all this, I digress.

No. The issues with those as described here aren't rectified by having slightly more author acknowledgement.

Was tired yesterday so I didn't get to elaborate further on this one, but the funny thing about it is that I have my own issues with the wall of text skills and don't really disagree with your points in that thread. For these particular items, that being Magic, Marksmanship and etc, my intention in having it indexed above or not has never had to do with really changing what Ajimu can do, rather how we are choosing to list her abilities because these are all already below.

Because all of the gun skills and the magic skills are already linked to the page, it would seem to me that her having those capabilities is already acknowledged, even if yes indeed we cannot say anything about the specifics. The addition of Magic among her P&A was not meant to take the description of her every magical skill literally. It was meant to index and declare that her magic skills exist, even if we do not know how much of the specifics in them are to be taken at face value and thus applicable.

The same holds true to the gun skills. The intent is to have the same thing that is acknowledged below indexed distinctly above. Never was it to say that we should accept every last one of the effects on the skills. Although, I will concede on that gun guy being fodder, as anyone in the audience should.

I think making him unconscious was meant to make it easier for him to live through the shock.

I disagree with your reading of those events with Momozono. Ajimu's not the resurrector of the cast; both Medaka and Kumagawa have skills that can do that. And note how Momo specifically talked about Zenkichi potentially being revived, while Ajimu's talks with people don't do that. I think that had absolutely nothing to do with Ajimu; especially considering that Ajimu was already sealed.

But in this particular case it's not just my reading of it.

Ajimu was, as a matter of fact, going to resurrect Zenkichi. It's the first thing that she declares as soon as she is out of the seal. That she would use all of her quadrillion skills, take the hostages back and heal Zenkichi all at the same time, in one fell swoop. Ajimu says that she would take care of everything, the terminals get baffled at how reliable she is and Medaka straight up has to ask her to not interfere and solve everything like that.

And in a few pages back they already declared multiple times that he was dead, as well as the dead card having a big X mark in it. So it was definitely Ajimu in this occasion, even if in many other situations she leaves that job to someone else.

We don't get clear indication about bones being involved; we see a skull in a speech bubble while the victim gets squeezed. I think that could easily apply to a lot of other abilities in that wall; specifically, I'm Crime, Pray Have Hope, Tracking, Body Blast, Triple Terrible, Because Problem, Very Hungry, Crystal Edge, Own Goal, About Dark, Dislike, Hit Man's Identity, Sense of Wonderful, Midnight Neurosis, In No Chest, Building Consensus Block, Heart Lung, Painting Blood, and This Cool Beauty.

On this one we'd simply argue on different perceptions of it, since examples like Crystal Edge (which is a skill to become hated by everyone) or the killing intent skill aren't really a match to that visual to my eyes or at least not nearly as much as Boneless Farm because it is the very first name that shows in the page and it's also the image of, indeed, a skull. But I acknowledge that it wouldn't be the first time that visual media uses metaphors like that for more emotional-based damage. So we could go either way on this one, I don't mind it if you think it's a possible or something to remove.

She's also one, so I just don't see that as too relevant. Even if it does qualify, it feels like a technicality.

Usually stuff like this is useful because it can be used to interact with characters that aren't otherwise interactible, or to bypass durability, and this doesn't seem to help with either. If a character was invulnerable because their consciousness is separate from their body, and every other part couldn't be hurt, bringing them to that room would presumably also maintain that separation; she still wouldn't be able to hurt their body-representation, and would need to track down and gain NPI on the actual consciousness. If that makes any sense.

Same as before on this one, I'll agree with what is considered the standards here. As for my reasons, I personally would take that it counts since it would mean that she has the means to interact with them one way or another. The main necessity to qualify for Non-Physical Interaction, at least as far as my understanding of the ability goes, would be for the character to have a means of interacting with something Non-Physical, and also have shown that they can in some occasion. Whether or not Ajimu did it while disembodied herself would not really erase the fact that she did interact with non-physical targets and fought them. So she would be able to replicate the same feat through the same method, if the necessity were to arise again. Indeed I don't know if she would be able to track them down, although she does have the skill to appear in abstract places like someone else's heart at will, which I'm not on the know about the extent it is accepted here.

Ah doh, I missed that from a quick look. I'll edit the transformation part out then.

No problem! I gotta admit that I missed lotsa things when making the last thread too, lmao Only knew about the dinosaur because I was about to add it too and noticed at the last second And thanks about any corrections. I don't really care whether or not she gets stronger or weaker from this, just to have as much accuracy as we can on the page and I'm not perfect to always get everything right either.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

@Agnaa @Magicomethkuon

As far as I’ve understood, MagicCome is proposing SI in 2 distinct ways.

(1) SI via the influence the terminals can have over society and (2) SI because of the terminals “relationship” with Ajimu


- For POINT 1, they seem to be arguing that even a negligible level of “influence” (I.e., simple word of mouth) is noteworthy when it’s done by millions of people. SI is one of those weird hax where scale can actually determine if something meets the criteria for the ability or not. Influence, by definition is just the “ability to have an effect on something.” Though for our purposes, it obviously has to be noteworthy. Say I tell someone about my company… that’s not really influential. However, if MILLIONS of people under my influence tell others about my company… that’s a different story. This is like what’s described under the “Social Position” section of the SI page.

On POINT 1: I agree with Magic


- For POINT 2, the argument is that Ajimu has SI because of the influence she excerpts on the actual Terminals themselves. I think this scan does a brilliant job at depicting the problem with this. Although, yes, they do retain a level of individuality… we get outright confirmation that they are BETTER described as Ajimu herself than simply her “underlings.” Essentially, The origin of Ajimu’s influence over them is more supernatural than simple social influence.

On POINT 2: I agree w/ Agnaa


- On the point about Reality warping, Magic states that making someone an idol is too specific to be done by an individual skill, but I disagree. Ajimu’s abilities are EXTREMELY specific. She literally has a skill dedicated to counting how many skills she’s used lol.

Final opinion: I agree w/ Agnaa

- For the NPI, I can understand Agnaa’s point that it’s probably just the author not accounting for every plausible extension of the setting being a dream world… regardless, though, being non-physical yourself doesn’t contradict you having NPI.

Final opinion: I’d be fine with a “Possibly NPI”

This is what stands out too me at a quick glance, will review other stuff when I have more time.

(Was planning to answer this as well but I'd be parroting my own comment just now, if I did. LMAO Thanks for the input. If you wanna read that answer as well, thanks man )

 

[Agnaa]

- For POINT 1, they seem to be arguing that even a negligible level of “influence” (I.e., simple word of mouth) is noteworthy when it’s done by millions of people. SI is one of those weird hax where scale can actually determine if something meets the criteria for the ability or not. Influence, by definition is just the “ability to have an effect on something.” Though for our purposes, it obviously has to be noteworthy. Say I tell someone about my company… that’s not really influential. However, if MILLIONS of people under my influence tell others about my company… that’s a different story. This is like what’s described under the “Social Position” section of the SI page.

I think that it's concrete. Surely if I ask one friend to come over, that isn't SI. But in her case the amount of friends that she can ask to come over are an immense percentage of mankind. By her own words, most people in the world have a terminal near them. It is thus a foregone conclusion that even if Ajimu weren't ever actively trying to influence society, she would always be making it happen even passively, by sheer amount of people that she and her terminals are connected to on a daily basis.

This sounded plausible, but doesn't seem to line up with Social Position's description on the SI page. That describes people with a high position or a lot of respect, which lets them control others, I don't think the second-order effects of the terminals really counts. The closest thing would be the flask plan, but I also feel like characters who get SI should have notable feats of that canonically. While Ajimu may have the capability, I don't think we've really seen her use it or gesture at using it. Magic argued the election arc involving this, but I'd put the key plot events there down to other abilities.

- For the NPI, I can understand Agnaa’s point that it’s probably just the author not accounting for every plausible extension of the setting being a dream world… regardless, though, being non-physical yourself doesn’t contradict you having NPI.

I can't believe I forgot this approach earlier, but my issue is probably best summarized as:

• Treating Ajimu as if she has that NPI usable outside of the dream world. Or as if Ajimu bringing a ghost to the dream world, somehow, would still have them be tangible to her.
• Not giving other characters who interacted with things in the dream world (Zenkichi, Emukae, Kumagawa) NPI in the same way.

If under any scenario she decides to mobilize all of her terminals towards something, she would have an unfair advantage that was compared to military advantage in war. Qualifying her thus under the social position and reputation type, with some elements of the leadership type by leading all the terminals and those connected to the flask plan. Or at least, that's my perspective on it so I'll leave it to everyone's judgment same as before.

From the way you phrased that it sounded plausible, but reading the scan gives me quite a different impression. Some characters talked about imaginary wars and proxy wars, Ajimu commented that the biggest difference is that variation in number and quality of pieces can make things unfair in real wars, then went on to say that since she holds 700 million pieces Sukinasaki usually wouldn't compare, but that she made up for it. Notably, she didn't say "If I actually mobilized all of them, this would happen".

Both due to the analogy sorta stopping from an actual comparison to a military, and back to a game by the time she brought up her terminals, and her reference to the actual events of the series being used in that comparison (where she only used maybe half a dozen terminals), I don't think it's implying that she's actually willing to, or even showing what would happen if she did, mobilize an army of 700 million people.

But the 600 terminals moment also shows that if she wants a result out of something, she will mobilize as many terminals as she needs to in order to help steer the end result towards the outcome of her desire without anyone else suspecting it. Her quote about being a person that destroys bonds shows that as well. Although I am surprised that this particular feat would be brought into question, when even something as simple as being able to blackmail others is accepted in the page as one of the methods to obtain the ability.

And Ajimu also says that she has easily achieved this all by manipulating people that she picked up from nowhere and nothing else.

Ehh, that's getting pretty close, but that "picked up from nowhere" part makes me really confused, the closest group that sounds like it'd be referring to would be the terminals, and manipulating those people likely has a supernatural origin.

So, I've had a look at the Japanese raws to retranslate it. The meaning I pull from those two bubbles is:

Reviving someone or beating the protagonist
Was easy if you manipulated people in those situations.

Given how the "picked up from nowhere" part isn't in the raws, I'm happy to go with that reasoning.

I was under the impression that possible ratings are for when something may be the case and there's at least a number of pointers towards that but it's not particularly clear. Which, does seem to me to be what is happening here. Wish granting has been listed before as reality warping for characters. With that in mind, it's at least a possibility that reality warping was being used when the way that Ajimu words it is granting that wish. And feels like there would have been mention of it if Saki had gained a new skill, considering every other time that this happened with a character before they went on to make a mention of what the skill was. Ajimu also adds that she wouldn't grant Kumagawa's wishes in the same section of the LN. But if even that possibly (or possibly limited) is also against the standards applied here in light of all this, I digress.

You can read our standards on possibly ratings on our Attack Potency page:

Should be used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be notable, but mild. This term should be used sparingly.

I think the argument you're giving doesn't meet that bar, particularly, I don't think it's "notable but mild".

Was tired yesterday so I didn't get to elaborate further on this one, but the funny thing about it is that I have my own issues with the wall of text skills and don't really disagree with your points in that thread. For these particular items, that being Magic, Marksmanship and etc, my intention in having it indexed above or not has never had to do with really changing what Ajimu can do, rather how we are choosing to list her abilities because these are all already below.

Because all of the gun skills and the magic skills are already linked to the page, it would seem to me that her having those capabilities is already acknowledged, even if yes indeed we cannot say anything about the specifics. The addition of Magic among her P&A was not meant to take the description of her every magical skill literally. It was meant to index and declare that her magic skills exist, even if we do not know how much of the specifics in them are to be taken at face value and thus applicable.

The same holds true to the gun skills. The intent is to have the same thing that is acknowledged below indexed distinctly above. Never was it to say that we should accept every last one of the effects on the skills. Although, I will concede on that gun guy being fodder, as anyone in the audience should.

It's a tough situation. If we include them, people may try using them in threads. If we don't include them, people will complain about their absence. I think their current position in the pages; being readable through a link to another wiki, or by images in the gallery section, is the right level of prominence for them, given their usability.

Not including Marksmanship is a side-effect of the extent to which we treat them seriously. If we don't use those names and descriptions as sufficient evidence, then we don't have anything to base Marksmanship off of.

But in this particular case it's not just my reading of it.

Ajimu was, as a matter of fact, going to resurrect Zenkichi. It's the first thing that she declares as soon as she is out of the seal. That she would use all of her quadrillion skills, take the hostages back and heal Zenkichi all at the same time, in one fell swoop. Ajimu says that she would take care of everything, the terminals get baffled at how reliable she is and Medaka straight up has to ask her to not interfere and solve everything like that.

And in a few pages back they already declared multiple times that he was dead, as well as the dead card having a big X mark in it. So it was definitely Ajimu in this occasion, even if in many other situations she leaves that job to someone else.

I disagree; she was sealed at the time, so it seems highly unlikely that she could've used her skills to revive Zenkichi at that exact moment without leaving first. Which is what your interpretation needs for that sort of Mind Manipulation.

Like sure, I agree that Ajimu could revive someone, but in that moment, Momo was sealing so that Medaka and Kumagawa, the two unsealed characters with resurrection abilities, wouldn't revive Zenkichi.

Actually, we should give Ajimu Resurrection/Healing. I'll go add that to the OP.

Same as before on this one, I'll agree with what is considered the standards here. As for my reasons, I personally would take that it counts since it would mean that she has the means to interact with them one way or another. The main necessity to qualify for Non-Physical Interaction, at least as far as my understanding of the ability goes, would be for the character to have a means of interacting with something Non-Physical, and also have shown that they can in some occasion. Whether or not Ajimu did it while disembodied herself would not really erase the fact that she did interact with non-physical targets and fought them. So she would be able to replicate the same feat through the same method, if the necessity were to arise again. Indeed I don't know if she would be able to track them down, although she does have the skill to appear in abstract places like someone else's heart at will, which I'm not on the know about the extent it is accepted here.

The weirdness isn't just that she'd have to take them to the dream world first, although that would need to be mentioned, it's the assumption that a ghost would then be tangible to her in that room, rather than remaining a ghost. I don't think it's just partially useless, I think it's wholly useless; NPI that only works when you make another character Intangible, and only works on the Intangibility you granted them.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Will try answering tomorrow. If not that, Saturday should be good
(days leading to Easter and all that)

 

[Elizhaa]

I am fine with the proposed changes.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

This sounded plausible, but doesn't seem to line up with Social Position's description on the SI page. That describes people with a high position or a lot of respect, which lets them control others, I don't think the second-order effects of the terminals really counts. The closest thing would be the flask plan, but I also feel like characters who get SI should have notable feats of that canonically. While Ajimu may have the capability, I don't think we've really seen her use it or gesture at using it. Magic argued the election arc involving this, but I'd put the key plot events there down to other abilities.

I'll respond my whole part about Social Influencing here, since I'm running short on time. So lemme see.

This could be just me, but I feel like if this is the case that we have to operate with for Ajimu, we'd be applying a more strict standard for her with Social Influencing than the ability has demanded before. I'm not going to speak specifics to not run into a fallacy of whataboutism that just takes thread space, but picking directly from the page, I wanna go over what she has to work with on this one so we can wrap this section up.

Social Influencing, in simple terms, is the ability to influence a person emotionally, psychologically, and overall, mentally, either to gain an advantage, or have them do certain tasks.

So social Influencing is distinct from the ability of mind control, nothing new there. I do not want to argue semantics either, but verbatim the page describes it as the ability to influence someone, through any variety of means, to have them end up acting in a way that is advantageous to the person who has this skill. It's also important that it does not even mention big numbers but someone. That is also why methods like Blackmailing, which are not necessarily an ability in any manner, also qualify characters.

With that being said. I'm having trouble understanding why all the terminal actions and the election arc would not be allowed to qualify Ajimu for this. Starting with the Flask Plan, it's something she has had going for over a hundred years and that Hakama declares they had support from multiple investors for funds, including the armed forces. This gets further confirmation with Medaka confronting Ajimu about the 100 000 people working with her for the Flask Plan. Where I'm not being able to wrap my mind here is that a position of power at all with a number this high following her goal, funds coming from sources that include the armed forces, and a history of going on for over a 100 years with such support going strong would still not qualify in any manner.

Furthermore, to influence people purely through their emotions, psychologically and etc is exactly what she does through her terminals. There isn't any supernatural skill involved, she simply makes her Terminals end up near someone and proceeds to, through their presence, lead them towards the intended outcome. This has been true in the election arc as well, when Ajimu tells Kumagawa that none of those terminals had a skill. The first 600 were used to lead the council into ending up with just them, the five terminals influenced Medaka to hang out with normals and forget Zenkichi, Ajimu herself then influenced Zenkichi to become Medaka's enemy and ultimately lead to the results of that election.

Then she has the novel statement that confirms her awareness about how many terminals she has to use as pieces. Even if she didn't also ever need to mobilize all of them at once, these people, by sheer numbers and simply existing, would be already influencing how a countless number of people go in their day to day lives. This may be a different way of perceiving it but it seems very safe to take from Ajimu's statement in the novel about her own terminals, and what she did with them at a lesser scale in the manga, that she'd be more than able to mobilize......well, herself as need be to achieve other goals.

All things considered, this is the main ability out of this whole set that I absolutely feel there's fair ground to say she qualifies for. If even in light of all this, the final consensus is to say she still does not qualify and these feats are invalid for social influencing, there's really not much option I have but to say carry on and remove it. Having said my piece, I can accept that if it's the only outcome the forums find correct.

I can't believe I forgot this approach earlier, but my issue is probably best summarized as:

• Treating Ajimu as if she has that NPI usable outside of the dream world. Or as if Ajimu bringing a ghost to the dream world, somehow, would still have them be tangible to her.
• Not giving other characters who interacted with things in the dream world (Zenkichi, Emukae, Kumagawa) NPI in the same way.

Well if that's the concern we don't really have anything to argue about, her NPI wouldn't be about Ghosts tbf. It would be limited to what she has shown herself capable of interacting with. I was under the impression that the forums already held that kind of assumption in this ability. Like a character that is able to interact with ghosts may not interact with concepts, so on and so forth. We could add between the () that it's limited to the Dream World, if that works better.

From the way you phrased that it sounded plausible, but reading the scan gives me quite a different impression. Some characters talked about imaginary wars and proxy wars, Ajimu commented that the biggest difference is that variation in number and quality of pieces can make things unfair in real wars, then went on to say that since she holds 700 million pieces Sukinasaki usually wouldn't compare, but that she made up for it. Notably, she didn't say "If I actually mobilized all of them, this would happen".

Both due to the analogy sorta stopping from an actual comparison to a military, and back to a game by the time she brought up her terminals, and her reference to the actual events of the series being used in that comparison (where she only used maybe half a dozen terminals), I don't think it's implying that she's actually willing to, or even showing what would happen if she did, mobilize an army of 700 million people.

So my dumbass went and summarized my commentary about SI all at the start of this reply, and now I see that this is about that as well.
I don't think there's much else for me to add from here on out without making the argument circular. At this, we are simply running into another situation of different interpretations of the quote at which point we either reconsider our pov or leave it to vote. I don't particularly mind if my pov about this later gets rejected, provided I got to speak my piece.

And true that Ajimu didn't say a quote as verbatim as that, but to me at least, expecting her (or any other character) to would be too specific in my demandings. Having already shown that she is not above using numbers in the election arc (600 people mobilized just for Medaka's election was overkill), and declaring to Medaka in their bath together what the extent of her terminals is, I think it's easy to deduce that she could mobilize them all for any other goal if she needed to. It's just that, indeed, there was never such a need giving the power that she already has and influence in other directions like it is with the Flask Plan.

But I was also under the impression that what characters can potentially do, if there is no indication that they can't, is taken into account here. As is the case with many characters with basis to destroy planets or the universe and etc, but never have done so on screen because of other things getting in the way or never actually needing to do it. Using all terminals would fall in the same category. Ajimu has all of those pieces and can mobilize them, but never needed to.

You can read our standards on possibly ratings on our Attack Potency page:

I think the argument you're giving doesn't meet that bar, particularly, I don't think it's "notable but mild".

If the final staff consensus is that it's not within the standards of these forums to be accepted, there's not much more I can argue there, at which point I'd be going against the way you guys want to structure the pages or acknowledge whether or not a particular event counts for a feat. So fair enough, sorry about that.

It's a tough situation. If we include them, people may try using them in threads. If we don't include them, people will complain about their absence. I think their current position in the pages; being readable through a link to another wiki, or by images in the gallery section, is the right level of prominence for them, given their usability.

Like I said, this one doesn't really change what she can do, it's more about aesthetics and ways of indexing. I personally don't see a problem either way, but I think it's a good thing to consider. About people using them on VS Threads, I had heard that Ajimu was banned from participating in those (lol sent to Arlong's Dungeon). Would suck if they did though so I get where the worry is coming from. Although and at that point, I think they'd try using them no matter where they were linked.....

Not including Marksmanship is a side-effect of the extent to which we treat them seriously. If we don't use those names and descriptions as sufficient evidence, then we don't have anything to base Marksmanship off of.

It's more or less the same as I mentioned in the reply before. But either way this one has been a neutral for me from the previous post. So it sounds good to me, I don't mind removing it if you wanna.

I disagree; she was sealed at the time, so it seems highly unlikely that she could've used her skills to revive Zenkichi at that exact moment without leaving first. Which is what your interpretation needs for that sort of Mind Manipulation.

Like sure, I agree that Ajimu could revive someone, but in that moment, Momo was sealing so that Medaka and Kumagawa, the two unsealed characters with resurrection abilities, wouldn't revive Zenkichi.

Ajimu does mention, at one point, that Kumagawa-kun wouldn't be able to do anything with the body being sealed. At the same time I'd feel strange about saying that she has nothing to do with the scene, when the follow-up to Momozono talking about people resurrecting others is for the scene's focus to shift towards Ajimu waiting for Zenkichi's disembodied consciousness to arrive in her room.

Putting it together with her following statement about being able to revive him, it seems to me that there is good possibility she would, at that point. Although thinking about it now, my actual problem with it outside of what we have discussed, is that there is possibility as well that Momozono's seal just wasn't as good as Book Maker at sealing her. And the Ajimu inside the card still had most of her abilities available. Compared to how long it took her to get out of Book Maker + the deterioration of All Fiction vs How fast she was out of Momozono's card as soon as she actually started trying, that sounds very plausible.

The good news is that this particular branch of the talk has become an aside by now, lol I brought up the situation with Momozono more because of it being another showing of disembodied things being led to Ajimu and her capability to interact with them (she was definitely expecting dead Zenkichi arriving in her room), than the resurrection point in and of itself.

Actually, we should give Ajimu Resurrection/Healing. I'll go add that to the OP.

Yeppers. Was gonna make a thread about that after the first but I got busy with life out there and left the idea behind, so of course I'm in support of this as well.

The weirdness isn't just that she'd have to take them to the dream world first, although that would need to be mentioned, it's the assumption that a ghost would then be tangible to her in that room, rather than remaining a ghost. I don't think it's just partially useless, I think it's wholly useless; NPI that only works when you make another character Intangible, and only works on the Intangibility you granted them.

I don't think the consciousnesses in Medaka Box even qualify for ghosts to be honest, they are more like dreams or thoughts or consciousnesses. My suggestion wasn't to extend her NPI to everything, simply give it and specify the range with her showings as associated basis. It's limited in range and definitely not the most useful of her skills, but I don't think it means we shouldn't mention it at all in the profile. If someone in some thread tried to sell it as something better than what it is, they could always be called out on the fallacy.

 

[Agnaa]

I don't have much to say about your last post, other than finding parts of it infuriating. In particular:

• Completely ignoring some stuff I said about SI (i.e. the scan demonstrating that she manipulated people in the election arc), while writing 7 paragraphs about a small part of it.
• Not giving a substantive response to my concerns about NPI, despite me having bolded that part, instead just saying "well I'm not saying it works on ghosts, just treat it as it works canonically". I don't care about the one example of "ghosts" and would be 100% okay if instead of "ghosts", they were "spirits", "information', "concepts", "consciousnesses", etc. etc. etc. So it's frustrating to have you just focus on that.

But some more substantive things I can say:

Ajimu is currently banned from matches, but I'd have concerns about substantive changes sticking around if she gets unbanned. So I don't want her getting stuff like Marksmanship. That sort of thing DOES have a tangible impact on how she'd be used in matches, even if it's small. If it's not included in her P&A/stat sections, or written in her NA&T section, it's not allowed to be used.

The explicitness of SI is important, because otherwise you get into really fanfic-y territory. Taking one off-handed mention of her having a large company, and spinning off a tale about how she could use that to pressure people, in ways she has never done or hinted at doing canonically. You'd be talking about a way of winning almost entirely detached from the source material.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

I don't have much to say about your last post, other than finding parts of it infuriating.

Sure man, sorry my answer annoyed you that way. It's been a long way to Easter, I don't wanna make anyone bothered or wasting more time with a thread than their schedule allows them to.

• Completely ignoring some stuff I said about SI (i.e. the scan demonstrating that she manipulated people in the election arc), while writing 7 paragraphs about a small part of it.

Well, I didn't but I can see how you may look at the reply and feel that way. What I did was joining everything that I still wanted to say about SI in one part. The reason why I didn't resume talking about it by quoting the different parts of the reply wasn't because I didn't see them. It was because from that point onwards I felt like I'd be parroting my own comment to you if I replied again. Ironic that it caused the opposite effect
I talked about it in this bit of my comment with something around the lines of

So my dumbass went and summarized my commentary about SI all at the start of this reply, and now I see that this is about that as well.

So not really, the 7 paragraphs weren't only about the bit in the quote but a summarization of my thoughts on the whole situation.
With the scan about manipulating people in the election arc, I assume you are referring to the raws of it and how you conclude that it refers to the terminals, yes?

Guess the gist of it is that I can't agree with disregarding what she achieves through terminals, in the ways of having other people end up behaving the way that she wants them to, or having things like the election end exactly the way she was intending for it to end like. Medaka's council and the election arc is just one example of that. With minimal direct intervention, and she does directly intervene once......to immediately win Zenkichi over to her side, she achieves these things. There's never a skill coming into play, either Ajimu directly talks to lead things in a direction or she uses her terminals's presence to create the scenario that she desired in the long run.

• Not giving a substantive response to my concerns about NPI, despite me having bolded that part, instead just saying "well I'm not saying it works on ghosts, just treat it as it works canonically". I don't care about the one example of "ghosts" and would be 100% okay if instead of "ghosts", they were "spirits", "information', "concepts", "consciousnesses", etc. etc. etc. So it's frustrating to have you just focus on that.

I read this again a few times, and wasn't really sure what else I should be saying in this regard, but I'll try and expand what I said since you want a focus on this part.

The weirdness isn't just that she'd have to take them to the dream world first, although that would need to be mentioned, it's the assumption that a ghost would then be tangible to her in that room, rather than remaining a ghost. I don't think it's just partially useless, I think it's wholly useless; NPI that only works when you make another character Intangible, and only works on the Intangibility you granted them.

In range, I don't mind if it were judged to be dream world only. Disembodied substances/beings from any given franchise with similar traits to those astral projections could be affected. Things like purely mental beings, dreams or consciousnesses. That would be the spectrum of her NPI. For the wholly useless claim, I can't agree with it. We'd be assuming here that intangibility from things that are by default incorporeal is intangibity that Ajimu granted them, rather than those already being intangible by virtue of, again, being incorporeal. Besides that, I advocate for it being indexed because abilities shouldn't be added based solely on how effetive they are in wide ranges of situations, but whether or not they exist.

Ajimu is currently banned from matches, but I'd have concerns about substantive changes sticking around if she gets unbanned. So I don't want her getting stuff like Marksmanship. That sort of thing DOES have a tangible impact on how she'd be used in matches, even if it's small. If it's not included in her P&A/stat sections, or written in her NA&T section, it's not allowed to be used.

The addition of Marksmanship, as I said in the original thread, was to be an umbrella to the fact that she has gun skills. It's for simple ease of observation in the profile's main P&A, so I don't mind agreeing with removal here.

The explicitness of SI is important, because otherwise you get into really fanfic-y territory. Taking one off-handed mention of her having a large company, and spinning off a tale about how she could use that to pressure people, in ways she has never done or hinted at doing canonically. You'd be talking about a way of winning almost entirely detached from the source material.

I'm sorry, but I don't think I follow why it would be. It would be fanfic-y territory if I were assuming that because of the flask plan's goal, things like the armed forces would be interested or further to substantiate my claim without any confirmation from the source material. Instead I am drawing attention to what the story says that her plans have already achieved.

Social Position and Reputation: Characters who possess a high level of position in society or are heavily respected in their setting, which allows them to control an individual or a group of people.

It's not a fabrication that the Flask Plan got investors, a hundred years of history and even the attention of the armed forces funding it. There's no need to spin it further than that because this is already having a high level of position. Even if Ajimu never bothered or had reason to exploit it beyond the scope of the series, that influence already exists. Nor is it that there's also confirmation of over 100 000 people following her goal. But, while on the grounds of potential feats being brought up. There's another thing about the reasoning I've observed on this matter puzzles me in, as follows:

The terminals are all Ajimu, so her influence on them is supernatural and thus we cannot count those as Social Influencing. However, we are not going to accept that Ajimu being all of those terminals, could ever mobilize to influence other people with herself either.

So this looks like it doesn't add up.
On one hand we acknowledge that all the terminals are an extension of Ajimu as her starting point, so we deny that it counts for SI. This part I am fine with by now. But then we, at the same time, must say that Ajimu can't move herself either to influence others despite acknowledging those numbers all being at her beck and call, and how she did mobilize a number of them to indirectly achieve a goal in the election arc, without any direct use of violence or her skills.

And this doesn't need to be at once. We saw that she can control at the very least, from the events of the election arc, 600 terminals at once. So it's not headcanon to conclude that she could do that, to influence other people, in other circumstances. This is simple deduction using exactly what she has already shown. Even if we went the full length and said she can't control her own terminals at a larger scale, she could at any point in time, mobilize 600 terminals to influence people in the same way that she had done in the election arc.

Which leads us back to my previous reply.
Having summarized the reasons why I believe that she qualifies for Social Influencing and left it to your judgment, that's about the whole thing I think. If you don't think any of the feats count or that my answer is plain infuriating, we're cool the same way. I don't really have any way to say keep it! or take more of the time out of your day and I'm not going to be annoyed either. It's a character, it's a forum, I think something counts for an ability, you don't. That's good enough to me.

And a happy Easter!

 

[Agnaa]

So not really, the 7 paragraphs weren't only about the bit in the quote but a summarization of my thoughts on the whole situation.
With the scan about manipulating people in the election arc, I assume you are referring to the raws of it and how you conclude that it refers to the terminals, yes?

No, I said the exact opposite!!!!!!!!!

Please just reread that post. Your misunderstanding has made a lot of this post pointless to respond to.

In range, I don't mind if it were judged to be dream world only. Disembodied substances/beings from any given franchise with similar traits to those astral projections could be affected. Things like purely mental beings, dreams or consciousnesses. That would be the spectrum of her NPI. For the wholly useless claim, I can't agree with it. We'd be assuming here that intangibility from things that are by default incorporeal is intangibity that Ajimu granted them, rather than those already being intangible by virtue of, again, being incorporeal. Besides that, I advocate for it being indexed because abilities shouldn't be added based solely on how effetive they are in wide ranges of situations, but whether or not they exist.

Characters like Emukae and Zenkichi obviously aren't purely mental beings. They were simply sent to the dream world. If you want to say that makes them incorporeal, while Ajimu can still interact with them and so she should get NPI, then that only gives her NPI that works on intangibility she granted, which is wholly useless.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

No, I said the exact opposite!!!!!!!!!

Oh. Fair enough, then.

Characters like Emukae and Zenkichi obviously aren't purely mental beings. They were simply sent to the dream world. If you want to say that makes them incorporeal, while Ajimu can still interact with them and so she should get NPI, then that only gives her NPI that works on intangibility she granted, which is wholly useless.

Emukae and Zenkichi show that she can send others there, yes. On the other hand Kumagawa's disembodied self after Gagamaru killed him, was beaten up when already dead after we see that his collapsed body was still out there in the Minus 13 room. Together, these show that if she were to encounter a being that only exists as a thought or dream she may be able to send them to that room and interact with them.

 

[Agnaa]

Emukae and Zenkichi show that she can send others there, yes. On the other hand Kumagawa's disembodied self after Gagamaru killed him, was beaten up when already dead after we see that his collapsed body was still out there in the Minus 13 room. Together, these show that if she were to encounter a being that only exists as a thought or dream she may be able to send them to that room and interact with them.

That requires assuming that her ability to send them there would be able to function despite them being intangible, which seems quite unlikely, given she has to kiss them to send them there.

It also requires assuming that sending them there doesn't grant them an extra layer of intangibility, despite that seemingly being the case with Emukae/Zenkichi being sent there.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

That requires assuming that her ability to send them there would be able to function despite them being intangible, which seems quite unlikely, given she has to kiss them to send them there.

It also requires assuming that sending them there doesn't grant them an extra layer of intangibility, despite that seemingly being the case with Emukae/Zenkichi being sent there.

Damn man, you're right on that one. It does require kissing.

I don't think it would give an already disembodied consciousness or dream another layer of intangibility, but I did not remember in fact that Ajimu needed to physically kiss the target to send them there as the only observed method. So I can concede on the doubt about her being able to send them there in the first place. Although, wouldn't the ability still help in cases where the character relies on something like their disembodied consciousness or astral projections to regenerate or resurrect once the body has been killed? Since characters like Kumagawa or Zenkichi upon death also end up in that room.

 

[Agnaa]

Even then, I think it's weird to talk about the cases with Kumagawa/Zenkichi as if they're taken there. It's talked about as Ajimu appearing in their hearts, something which is established as an aspect of her Alibi Block ability, and we see many cases (maybe just with Zenkichi?) of characters dreaming when on the verge of death. It seems more like Ajimu simply appearing inside of those.

And the applicability of that for nullifying resurrection/regeneration based on a disembodied consciousness seems very very speculative. We've only seen her transfer abilities and torture people. Treating that as something capable of meaningfully destroying them, without similar anti-feats from the victim's side, seems weird to me.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Even then, I think it's weird to talk about the cases with Kumagawa/Zenkichi as if they're taken there. It's talked about as Ajimu appearing in their hearts, something which is established as an aspect of her Alibi Block ability, and we see many cases (maybe just with Zenkichi?) of characters dreaming when on the verge of death. It seems more like Ajimu simply appearing inside of those.

And the applicability of that for nullifying resurrection/regeneration based on a disembodied consciousness seems very very speculative. We've only seen her transfer abilities and torture people. Treating that as something capable of meaningfully destroying them, without similar anti-feats from the victim's side, seems weird to me.

Without a feat of outright destroying them, I can see the foundation of the argument that she may just be stuck throwing hands at them forever. So, fair enough.

As for dreaming and them being taken there, it was because of that scene where Medaka fought Iihiko, had her attack reflected and met her late mother there. Where she says that it was a space that Ajimu had created within her, and the reason why Ajimu wasn't found there being her death, but the empty space remained so she'd be borrowing it. I don't know how faithful this translation is to the raws however. Maybe that counts for something if she indeed creates those from scratch and they trigger when people that she used it in die or are on the verge of it.

 

[Agnaa]

I'm not talking just because of that; Zenkichi has one of his own when he's passed out. While Kumagawa was talking to the recording of Ajimu, Zenkichi was just dreaming about Shiranui.

But I can see the reasoning how, from that statement, that you'd suspect such spaces were also created within Kumagawa and Zenkichi.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

I'm not talking just because of that; Zenkichi has one of his own when he's passed out. While Kumagawa was talking to the recording of Ajimu, Zenkichi was just dreaming about Shiranui.

But I can see the reasoning how, from that statement, that you'd suspect such spaces were also created within Kumagawa and Zenkichi.

That it does. I think we can agree on the use of Occam's Razor leaning more towards not giving it to her with NPI there by now, so I concede on this point. And would you look at that, should be all of them! Thanks a lot for the help and input with the revisions.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Yeah, I agree with the revision at this point. Except maybe the complete removal of Marksmanship.

 

[Antvasima]

What are your conclusions here so far, Agnaa? Meaning, what needs to be done here?

 

[Agnaa]

In short, remove Reality Warping, Mind Manipulation, Bone Manipulation, Marksmanship, and Non-Physical Interaction. Change the justifications for Magic and Social Influencing. Add Metal Manipulation, Healing, and Resurrection.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is probably fine to apply then.

 

[Agnaa]

I'm in a pretty bad place mentally, so I might not be able to do that for a bit.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem, and I hope that you will recover and get better as quickly as possibly.