Medaka Box changes

[FoxySonicMaster108]

My best ideas are:

• Use the "notes" feature, to add some indicating when exactly those keys start and end. So, say, it'd look like "Thirteen Party Arc[note 1]", when you hover/click on [note 1] it says "This key actually starts at Chapter 27, but that's close to the start of this arc." Bouquet Toss would end up starting a few chapters earlier; probably at the beginning of Medaka's fight with Iihiko, or after Medaka gets revived and goes to destroy the moon.
• Rename the keys from being based on arcs to being based on chapters.
• Have the keys technically be based on how Medaka was at the very end of the arc, rather than trying to cover her all the way through.

Although the third option was what I was trying to go for. I think the second option may be the best. And I’ve actually seen profiles like Simon for example split the keys by Episodes, Medaka could be the same, considering she gets way stronger in the Thirteen Party arc because of Maguro’s training and plenty of other factors, and this could potentially reduce the amount of keys used.

Although now that I think about it, we kinda have to make a call on Iihiko and Medaka's ratings.

If Medaka solidly gets a tier for moon-busting, then either Iihiko's High 8-C feat won't be used, or Iihiko won't be able to solidly scale.

There's a lotta ways we can go the "doesn't solidly scale" route. Say it's an outlier, since he was going to die to the moon crashing down, got injured by an armoured vehicle, and said that his new body was far more powerful after merely performing a High 8-C feat. We could also say that Medaka got stronger after she was revived, since she went on to do a bunch of ludicrous shit; essentially we'd say that she couldn't have destroyed the moon when fighting Iihiko.

Considering Medaka’s moon level feat comes after Iihiko is defeated. I wouldn’t mind him not fully scaling and just being High 8-C. Actually, Iihiko could use some new keys himself after possessing Hansode’s body, he destroyed the hospital, and I’m not sure if he could pull off that same feat in his original body. I think his Echo is different as well, but that could be discussed more perhaps? (Or we could just give Iihiko possibly 5-C)

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah I p. much agree with all of that.

Iihiko could get At least 9-A for original body, High 8-C for possessing Shiranui. His Echo's definitely something different, but we get almost zero info on how exactly it is.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Most of the keys currently are just where I feel Medaka gets the most change in the story, which is why It's sorted like Chapter 27-89, (could probably change that because of Hinokage's Theme Song), Chapter 90 is the Kumagawa fight, through the Jet Black Bride Arc. Especially since Medaka doesn’t change too too much. While also adding notes of which arcs begin at what Chapter.

There could be some other feats discussed, like the time in the Thirteen Party arc Zenkichi shook a room that Munakata almost thought was an Earthquake (and that room does look way bigger than the piece of the academy Medaka was pulling in War God Mode), but even so, I’m not sure where that would land, but probably higher into 9-A.

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah I'll defer to you on that, its been a few years since I've read it and the notes I took then aren't comprehensive enough for me to contribute too much.

 

[Antvasima]

Using "to" doesn't make sense when a character's strength doesn't fluctuate. This may just be another point where the arcs aren't great dividers for power.

Thinking about it more, having her be all the way up at 5-C is kinda weird with the Bouquet Toss arc. Like, she uses her strongest transformation, injures but doesn't KO/kill a bunch of mooks, then they say "haha she really can't hold back" (album of that). When they're all probably not 5-C. And even later on, she gets gradually more and more injured after her fights. Although maybe the part we take as an outlier here shouldn't be her 5-C rating, but other characters scaling to her.

I also think that it is an outlier for other characters rather than herself.

 

[Antvasima]

I am fine with your agreement about how to rename her statistic keys btw.

 

[Agnaa]

I am fine with your agreement about how to rename her statistic keys btw.

Does that include saying that Medaka's 5-C rating starts after the fight with Iihiko, and thus, Iihiko would lose that rating?

Or would you rather some other solution (scaling Iihiko, scaling Iihiko only under a "possibly" due to the outlier concerns, etc.)?

 

[Antvasima]

I am most likely fine with what you think seems most appropriate in this situation.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

I’m debating if Iihiko should keep 5-C at all, he did basically one tap Medaka who was in End God Mode (even though she still had enough Will to keep going despite that), but idk, I’ll get Medaka’s keys sorted and see where to go from there. (There is quite a lot that needs to be changed.)

 

[Violatas]

I’m debating if Iihiko should keep 5-C at all, he did basically one tap Medaka who was in End God Mode (even though she still had enough Will to keep going despite that), but idk, I’ll get Medaka’s keys sorted and see where to go from there. (There is quite a lot that needs to be changed.)

I think if we give Iihiko a key for being in Shiranui's body, a "possibly" is fine imo.

On that note, should we even keep "dura neg" as one of his abilities? I honestly don't remember him showing that.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

I think if we give Iihiko a key for being in Shiranui's body, a "possibly" is fine imo.

On that note, should we even keep "dura neg" as one of his abilities? I honestly don't remember him showing that.

Irreversible Destruction was used on Ajimu and it killed her. (She is currently 3-A) so yes, I believe

 

[Violatas]

Irreversible Destruction was used on Ajimu and it killed her. (She is currently 3-A) so yes, I believe

Honestly I'm iffy on Ajimu being flat uni when surface area would massively tank her surviving the big bang feat. Don't think anyone has brought that up.
Also, I'm unsure how that scan proves ID dura negs. With everything we've seen it do, dura negging was never really made blatant.
I'd just go with scaling to whatever tier Ajimu is would be an outlier regardless of whether or not ID negs dura

 

[Agnaa]

I'd just go with scaling to whatever tier Ajimu is would be an outlier regardless of whether or not ID negs dura

That's the take I'd lean towards too tbh, but people disagreed with me in the past.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Guess that makes sense, scaling to Ajimu is really wacky (unless it's Medaka copying her skills or somethin, idk), maybe possibly Durability Negation? Idek since scaling anything to Ajimu becomes weird really quickly. Plus, the 3-A tier could've been when she was actually in her prime, idk.

(God I wish Medaka Box was a more power scaling friendly verse, but I like to think that's what Nisio Isin was probably intending, lol)

 

[Violatas]

Hmm. What if we just disregard the big bang feat entirely? If we roll with ID not being dura neg and say the big bang feat is an outlier, then that'd also at least make scaling characters to Ajimu physically less weird. I'd even argue she shouldn't scale to the moon bust since Iihiko literally one shot her.

Or yeah, we can also just accept the feat for Ajimu and no one else. Just throwing out my two cents on her weirdness.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Ajimu should have an "At least 3-A" rating, as it is a massively cautious low estimate already given her higher-dimensionality and infinity powers.

 

[Agnaa]

Hmm. What if we just disregard the big bang feat entirely? If we roll with ID not being dura neg and say the big bang feat is an outlier, then that'd also at least make scaling characters to Ajimu physically less weird. I'd even argue she shouldn't scale to the moon bust since Iihiko literally one shot her.

Or yeah, we can also just accept the feat for Ajimu and no one else. Just throwing out my two cents on her weirdness.

I kinda agree with Ant. Due to the way she's portrayed throughout the rest of the story, she's typically far above the rest of the cast (i.e. when she stomped the fake suitors so badly that Medaka got terrified of fighting her). I think the outlier part is scaling other characters to her.

 

[Violatas]

I'm fine with either or.

Anyways, we all in agreement with giving Iihiko a key for Shiranui's body?
I'm also ok with a possibility rating for him scaling to the moon bust with that key. His older body prolly shouldn't scale though.
I also think dura neg should outright be removed from his Irreversible Destruction though. There's like, no real hard evidence that's what it does.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

(Returning to this thread since it's been a bit)

I'm fine with either or.

Anyways, we all in agreement with giving Iihiko a key for Shiranui's body?
I'm also ok with a possibility rating for him scaling to the moon bust with that key. His older body prolly shouldn't scale though.
I also think dura neg should outright be removed from his Irreversible Destruction though. There's like, no real hard evidence that's what it does.

I'd say this is fine, even with the 5-C as a possibly. I think Irreversible Destruction could also have possibly Durability Negation? But again, not too sure.

Also, guess I should bring this up now, but would Iihiko and Medaka (depending on how these keys get sorted) be the only ones to scale to High 8-C? I know there are characters who held their own against him (but then again, it could be because of Contradictory Conjunction)

Also I was rereading some bits of the Unknown Shiranui Arc, and I think Iihiko's Echo, while different, should have similar powers to him (not to mention he's his true self anyway) (aside from probably Irreversible Destruction, but then again, his destruction becoming reversible was just due to him getting "defeated")

And Medaka could be FTL with Kurokami Final, since she still managed to somewhat blitz Iihiko (even though she missed the first time), a guy who is stated to never let his guard down.

 

[Violatas]

Also, guess I should bring this up now, but would Iihiko and Medaka (depending on how these keys get sorted) be the only ones to scale to High 8-C? I know there are characters who held their own against him (but then again, it could be because of Contradictory Conjunction)

Yeah from what I remember that's the only reason others held their own against Iihiko. Outside of that he was stomping everyone sans Medaka.

Also ngl I'm still confused about Contradictory Conjunction's explanation in story. About what it exactly does

 

[Agnaa]

Also, guess I should bring this up now, but would Iihiko and Medaka (depending on how these keys get sorted) be the only ones to scale to High 8-C? I know there are characters who held their own against him (but then again, it could be because of Contradictory Conjunction)

They all did it through Contradictory Conjunction, so they don't get a rating for it.

Also I was rereading some bits of the Unknown Shiranui Arc, and I think Iihiko's Echo, while different, should have similar powers to him (not to mention he's his true self anyway) (aside from probably Irreversible Destruction, but then again, his destruction becoming reversible was just due to him getting "defeated")

I think it's all just too vague to index.

And Medaka could be FTL with Kurokami Final, since she still managed to somewhat blitz Iihiko (even though she missed the first time), a guy who is stated to never let his guard down.

She should be FTL with that regardless, due to upscaling from her Kurokami Phantom + Theme Song (since that's said to save on speed).

Also ngl I'm still confused about Contradictory Conjunction's explanation in story. About what it exactly does

The styles are based around manipulating facets of language, and enforcing effects on reality based on them.

For some of them, this is explained pretty well, or it's pretty obvious:

• Wrong Conversion lets the user change words for other words that are synonyms, and lets them completely negate the effects of words that have no synonyms.
• The Kanji Users can manipulate Chinese characters, changing their orders, interpretations, taking parts of them out, changing symbols which look similar, etc.
• The Nursery Rhymes users can de-age people by singing nursery rhymes, as nursery rhymes are associated with children.
• The Eight Hundred Lies Users can make 800 copies of themselves, as "800 lies" is a Japanese idiom for something being completely made up.

Others have logic, but were explained badly, leading to confusion:

• A "metonymy" is when a word is used in a colloquial way to refer to something that it doesn't literally mean, but which is related. Some examples include using "Hollywood" to refer to the (U.S.) film industry, or "The Pentagon" to refer to the U.S. military. While the only example shown of this canonically is transforming the user into other people, I suspect that it could be used more broadly.
• And finally, Contradictory Conjunction. A conjunction is a word that connects parts of sentences. So a contradictory conjunction would be using a word to combine parts of sentences in a way which is contradictory. The main use of this is with the word "therefore". "This rock is too large to destroy, therefore I will destroy it" is a contradiction, yet this ability lets characters make those contradictions actually occur. It lets the user destroy objects and fight opponents that are out of their league. It wouldn't let them amp up to High 8-C (8-A really, because that's where the ship-cutting feat done with this lands) against opponents of similar strength.

I hope that helped.

 

[Antvasima]

Agnaa seems to make sense above.

So what should currently be done here?

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Agnaa seems to make sense above.

So what should currently be done here?

Honestly, a lot needs to be done. Most of the characters could probably changed from 8-B to 9-A (exceptions being Iihiko and Medaka.) and honestly, I think the profiles need scans since a lot of them don’t have any.

 

[Agnaa]

Currently, I think this is mostly planning for later revisions, that'll have their own thread(s).

 

[Violatas]

Currently, I think this is mostly planning for later revisions, that'll have their own thread(s).

Hmm. Should we at least make a key for Iihiko in Shiranui's body rn? I think we all pretty much agree on that at least. Along with a "possibly moon level". Older body very likely wouldn't scale though. I still don't think Irreversible Destruction dura negs but we can discuss that later too if anyone still thinks it does

The rest prolly should be handled in a separate thread though ye

 

[Agnaa]

Myeh, I think that'd be best done with a bunch of tier changes.

 

[Violatas]

Sure. I guess we just close this one then?
Someone can make a mega CRT if they want about everything discussed here

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Guess that could be done. (I still need to figure out if Medaka should even have a High 8-C tier or not, but that’s about it. I’ll probably be able to figure everything else out.)
a
Also the moon destruction got calculated recently so that’s something to note ig

 

[Violatas]

"small planet"
Lol. I can't remember the last time I've seen a moon bust feat actually be moon level.
Anyways guess I'm gonna go ahead and unfollow this. Will keep an eye out for that CRT

 

[PhantomØ4]

Oh yeah I have a calc for Unzen https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:PhantomØ4/MedakaBoxCalcs here form a revision I kinda got busy from that I was also gonna do.

Medaka was twice of strong after the training with her brother so she should be 8-C by then for sure.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Medaka was twice of strong after the training with her brother so she should be 8-C by then for sure.

That could work, Zenkichi does also shake a room that is way bigger than the part of the school Medaka was dragging in War God Mode. Not sure if that works for 8-C either, but it could be a supporting feat.

 

[PhantomØ4]

That could work, Zenkichi does also shake a room that is way bigger than the part of the school Medaka was dragging in War God Mode. Not sure if that works for 8-C either, but it could be a supporting feat.

I can calc it this weekend probably maybe.

 

[Agnaa]

Oh yeah I have a calc for Unzen https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:PhantomØ4/MedakaBoxCalcs here form a revision I kinda got busy from that I was also gonna do.

Medaka was twice of strong after the training with her brother so she should be 8-C by then for sure.

There's no way that's pulv. Those rocks could not have come just from the edge which you say is the only part which was fragged. The amount of rocks on the side we can see on that picture could not come from only the edges, and just a short while later you can see a bunch more rocks on the other side, presumably obscured by the dust earlier. Going with frag, that's barely above baseline 9-A.

On the last feat there, as I said earlier in this thread, I think the Kurokami Phantom's explanation more implies that she was moving SoL there.

 

[PhantomØ4]

There's no way that's pulv. Those rocks could not have come just from the edge which you say is the only part which was fragged. The amount of rocks on the side we can see on that picture could not come from only the edges, and just a short while later you can see a bunch more rocks on the other side, presumably obscured by the dust earlier. Going with frag, that's barely above baseline 9-A.

On the last feat there, as I said earlier in this thread, I think the Kurokami Phantom's explanation more implies that she was moving SoL there.

Those didn’t seem like enough to fully account for the wall tbh. If anything I would think making it like X% of volume frag would be more accurate.

There’s also the holes he made around the classroom which seemed pretty clean from what I remember.

And Kurokami Phantom stuff, well, I don’t think she even denied moving beyond the speed of sound? She even acknowledged there was a sonic boom but said it wasn’t the reason she hurt herself so badly— the technique was simply too taxing on her body. Her opponent also said “What kinda fool blinks…” blah blah, which can honestly equally be calling himself a fool for doing so more than saying he didn’t blink... and I find it hard to believe Medaka would lie there about how she worked her ability to time it when he blinked. Why would she lie? That’s different from being in denial. I do think the guy was hyping her up because he thought his instincts were unbeatable—

 

[Agnaa]

If you read the scene carefully, I believe that Kurokami Phantom doesn't actually go at the speed of sound. Here's the scans I'll be commenting on.

• Shigusa goes "You must have moved faster than light and sound".
• Medaka answers "Of course not, a human couldn't do that, I just aimed for when you blinked".
• Shigusa responds "I obviously wouldn't have blinked. Plus, you were clearly damaged by the sonic boom".
• Medaka says "I wasn't damaged by the sonic boom, that's just because I exerted them a lot. I'm just a normal person, there's no way I could move at the speed of light".

This is CLEARLY just Medaka being in denial of the fact that she moved at the speed of light. You can't even interpret this as her moving at the speed of sound, since she denies that too.

Which may have you wondering, why would Medaka copy Hinokage's ability to move at the speed of light, if she can already do that? That version is said to save on speed, and I forget where it's said, but our profiles currently mention that it lets her used it without any physical strain or damage, which seems to be true from the times we see it used.

 

[PhantomØ4]

I specifically replied based on that exact post point. I forgot to quote— I don’t think the first argument makes much sense as what you wrote isn’t reflected in the scans you attached but I’m fine with leaving it as it is for now ig.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Since this still relates to tier changes and such. I think Medaka could still get High 8-C, just not in her base form, only in End God Mode.

 

[Antvasima]

@Agnaa

So what should we currently do here then?

 

[Agnaa]

Nothing really, this thread is fine to be closed, other stuff sounds like it'll be handled in a future CRT.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Honestly, there are probably a lot of changes that Medaka Box needs to go through, that it might need 2 parts (maybe even more but I don’t think it’ll be that bad)

That being said, I don’t mind the thread being closed. Some of the things could be discussed outside this thread (before another CRT is made)