Should Souls be default and also Medaka Box and Spirituality

[Ricsi-viragosi]

That all fictional characters should be assumed to have souls in versus threads even if they don't have them in their own verse

Literally what I said just above you:

I am saying that it should be case by case if it works or not, and that unless there is a statement about characters not having souls, you should not assume either.

I am saying that verse equal would make them have it if their oponents verse works like that, but beyond that, neither a negative or a positive can be assumed.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Conventional soul hax does exist. Inanimate objects do not conventionally have souls

I wasn't saying it was true. Also, I didnt mean to do a bullet point, I meant to do an asterisk

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Again, why doesn't an OP just specify in the battle in question if they're choosing to equalize them as having souls?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Again, why doesn't an OP just specify in the battle in question if they're choosing to equalize them as having souls?

For the reason that this aplies to other hax, and composite human lookibg at star wars characters and telling them "no U" while they try to mindhax is not an option.

 

[Mr._Common_Sense]

So, I see this thread is still open? Has it been decided on the results or this is thread just to be abyss like all others?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I mean, most agreed that souls, metaphysical minds, etc. are given with verse equal unless the verse contradicts it (either the soulhaxers verse acknowledges that there are some realities without people with souls, or the soulhaxers to be is stated to be souless).

Couldn't tell you about the medaka part.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Rather than contradicts it I would say if the verse is heavily implying that there aren't souls. Because contradicting is as Risci said just really heavy just outright "no there aren't souls". But if the verse heavily implies that there aren't souls or that it is an atheist verse then it should be fine. I will get back to this and make a new thread once im done with my graduaton tests however.

 

[The_Smashor]

Wait, I'm still following this? I've had to go through enough controversial revisions this month.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Since Kumagawa's consciousness still exists in Ajimu's room even after his brain is destroyed, doesn't that prove that their minds aren't entirely biological and tied to the brain?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

They do have a form of consciousness, but they do not have a soul. I will get down to re-doing this thread once im done with my graduation tests, i will have to explain everything about lack of souls in medaka box etc, but i have too much on my plate rn.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Soul can just be your consciousness as well.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Not really. Consciousness is part of the mind also called "a sense of self", where as soul is tied with life.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Not necessarily. In Harry Potter, for example, people lose their souls and just turn into vegetables, they don't die iirc. Souls there seem to only be people's consciousness.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yes losing your soul turns you into a human vegetable cus you lose your life. You just become a lifeless shell. Losing your consciousness wouldn't produce the same thing.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Not really,

"You can exist without your soul, you know, as long as your brain and heart are still working. But you'll have no sense of self anymore, no memory, no...anything. There's no chance at all of recovery. You'll just — exist. As an empty shell. And your soul is gone forever... lost."
Their bodies still live, but their consciousness is gone.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Cambridge dictionary's definition also seems to fit Medaka Box decently well

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/soul

Oxford's also kinda fits, except for the immortal part (for most of the cast, at least):

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/soul

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

If you are going to try and say that Medaka Box has souls but their souls are just their conciousness then its rather pointless because our usual definition of Soul Manip wouldn't apply to them anyway

 

[Firephoenixearl]

If you are going to try and say that Medaka Box has souls but their souls are just their conciousness then its rather pointless because our usual definition of Soul Manip wouldn't apply to them anyway

^^

 

[InfiniteSped]

What's the definition used for soul here? The Soul Manip page doesn't specify it, and they even list the HP Dementors there as soul manipulators.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Because that wouldn't be anything etherial to attack or manipulate. To effect a Medaka Box soul, you would need something along the lines of Mind Manipulation. Something like Nagato's soul manip or Undertale's general soul based attacks wouldn't work because there isn't anything to grab or poke at, its just a glorified transcendent mind

 

[InfiniteSped]

Is there any page that talks about that standart?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

the soul manip page talks about it a bit

 

[PaChi2]

Does James Bond not have a soul, then? And Leon S. Kennedy neither? Because souls are never mentioned in their works? Huh?

 

[InfiniteSped]

Doesn't seem to.

"Soul Manipulation is the ability to interact with one's soul or the souls of others. This ability ranges from being able to project the power of one's soul outward, grasping and ripping the souls of others out of their bodies, outright consuming souls to gain power, among other applications.

It should be noted that the ability to interact with souls and other non-corporeal entities directly as if they were physical objects is usually considered Non-Physical Interaction and does not grant the user the ability to manipulate souls in other contexts.

Under normal circumstances, most characters are assumed to have a soul by default unless the original medium specifies otherwise. Those who do not possess are soul are usually considered to be immune to most applications of Soul Manipulation."

Only considering something a soul if you can physically interact with it seems to go against what's said there. They can just have souls in their bodies and they instantly go to Ajimu's room as soon as they die (the ones that go there anyway), not like anyone in the verse has soul manip to test it out if you can physically touch them anyway.

 

[InfiniteSped]

What I mean is, we know they have a "consciousness" that could be argued to be a soul and they have a pseudo-afterlife with Ajimu's room for some characters, and there isn't any actual quote about souls not existing there iirc.

That's more evidence for souls than most grounded universes are gonna get. Making them not have it seems like a weird precedent to me.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Yes, we can read, you don't need to copy paste the whole article.

Ajimu's room is for minds, and it physically exists. They don't have their souls there.

 

[InfiniteSped]

It's a pretty small article anyway.

A "mind" that exists independent to the body and goes to a metaphysical place after death, sounds a hell lot like a soul to me. When is it shown to be physical? It's stated to be inside "Kumagawa's heart".

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

It doesn't usually go to a metaphysical place, Ajimu's place is the unusual exception for her to sit around in and use. When Zenkichi and his friends trained in it and got physically stronger, that is when it was shown to be physical.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Some characters do go to that place though, which shows they have a non-biological consciousness. Others not going just shows that there isn't a formal afterlife for everyone, not that souls don't exist.

When did Zenkichi train there?

 

[Jakob_C._Brown]

Following this thread because I am really curious how metaphysical or immaterial powers would work on a verse that is firmly grounded in materialism. Then again Medaka Box acknowledges and incorporates hax-based powers and has a creator or god-like being if I understand the nature of Ajimu correctly. So in how far is Medaka Box a materialist verse to begin with?

But yeah, personally I think it's unfair that immaterial powers "inherently" trump the rules of a materialist setting. Because something like soul manipulation indicates a soul, i.e. an essence of sort. Or a concept. However, if a setting is materialist therefore not composed of concepts or essences, then can those powers really amount to much? I notice how Platonian Thought gets mentioned a lot on this site when tackling with immaterial powers or powers that indicate a high-tier or whatever, but not every work of fiction operates according to this metaphysical notion of the material just being shadows cast by or elements bound by essences or concepts.

Also wouldn't mind manipulation in a materialist setting (such as in this context: Medaka Box -- again not really going to argue much against it since I haven't consumed enough information of the setting as a whole) be "brain manipulation"?

 

[Agnaa]

It's a pretty small article anyway.

A "mind" that exists independent to the body and goes to a metaphysical place after death, sounds a hell lot like a soul to me. When is it shown to be physical? It's stated to be inside "Kumagawa's heart".

Whether it's physical or metaphysical is inconsistent. At two separate instances in the story Kumagawa and Zenkichi "go there" to talk to Ajimu while still physically existing in the real world, showing that it's metaphysical. One time in the series, Zenkichi and Emukae go there to train and get stronger, implying either that it's physical or that they can train metaphysically and get stronger physically.

I think the latter's more likely, given lines like "It has to be hard to recover after moving around like this, even if this is a dream", and this sca where they're shown to still physically be in the world after mentally being sent to the dream world.

 

[QuasiYuri]

It's a pretty small article anyway.

A "mind" that exists independent to the body and goes to a metaphysical place after death, sounds a hell lot like a soul to me. When is it shown to be physical? It's stated to be inside "Kumagawa's heart".

One time in the series, Zenkichi and Emukae go there to train and get stronger, implying either that it's physical or that they can train metaphysically and get stronger physically.

Their body just fell asleep after being kissed by Ajimu. The training wasn't for "being strong", it was for Zenkichi going out of the "perfect partner" role and for him to acknowledge his feelings.

 

[Agnaa]

Their body just fell asleep after being kissed by Ajimu. The training wasn't for "being strong", it was for Zenkichi going out of the "perfect partner" role and for him to acknowledge his feelings.

That makes sense. I'd heard from others that they got physically stronger after that, and I haven't reread enough of that part to verify that.

 

[Zoey_of_Scadrial]

Know this is Necro but wanted to state my thoughts.

Verses should be assumed to have Souls unless reasonable proof is given otherwise, this is due to characters who can effect or manipulate souls would be put at an unfair disadvantage to another verse.

People are against Soulless by Defualt due to the fact that it would largely reduce the applicability of Soul Manip. And would set a precedent that could, in time, completely eliminate Verse Equalization in its entirety.

Burden of proof usually works the other way around, but in this case proof should be given to the contrary, due to the exact nature of this arguement, and what is being debated. If something is simply not touched upon, it does not instantly mean that it is nonexistant withen said verse.

In Medeka's Case, I am in the middle. Haven't read it, but both sides of the arguement make sense. I am leaning towards Souls existing, but in a very different form though. Largely due to Ajimu and the Ghost being quite explicit proof of some kind of Soul, at least in my opinion.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Know this is Necro but wanted to state my thoughts.
Verses should be assumed to have Souls unless reasonable proof is given otherwise, this is due to characters who can effect or manipulate souls would be put at an unfair disadvantage to another verse.

People are against Soulless by Defualt due to the fact that it would largely reduce the applicability of Soul Manip.

That's not a good argument. You're basically saying "we should give everyone who has soul manip an advantage insted". However you spin it, there is going to be an advantage.

 

[ElixirBlue]

The Ghost? What ghost? Iihiko?

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Medaka's Mom?