Should Souls be default and also Medaka Box and Spirituality

[AguilaR101]

Wouldn't plothax like Altairs be limited to plots that originate from fictional stories in-universe though?

 

[GreyFang82]

Wouldn't plothax like Altairs be limited to plots that originate from fictional stories in-universe though?

I don't know who Altairs is or anything about the character, so that specific character I can't answer.

I mean, hax like those state their limits. "I can only effect stories or books in my universe" boom you have your limit if they can't edit the story they are in and they can't edit the match in their favor making the hax non combat applicaple anyways.

Plot hax like Buggs should be applicaple to all fictional verses as he was able to edit the story he was currently in.

 

[GreyFang82]

But, back on track...

Are we for or against souls being default (that's really the only reason I'm here for or arguing about)

Edit: I didn't mean to make it a reply, sorry.

 

[Andytrenom]

When we assume a character in a vs thread possesses a soul, I don't think of it as a general proclaimation of how his universe functions, I just think of it as saying "He can't be assumed to be completely impervious to his opponent's ability without concrete evidence".

This is to me just a reasonable assumption to make during a hypothetical match up comparing the established strengths and weaknesses of two characters and nothing more than that. I don't think the standard should be changed.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

What if in a vs thread, the OP literally specifies whether they're doing that type of verse equalization? And decides whether to do so by what would be more fair?

 

[GreyFang82]

When we assume a character in a vs thread possesses a soul, I don't think of it as a general proclaimation of how his universe functions, I just think of it as saying "He can't be assumed to be completely impervious to his opponent's ability without concrete evidence".
This is to me just a reasonable assumption to make during a hypothetical match up comparing the established strengths and weaknesses of two characters and nothing more than that. I don't think the standard should be changed.

Where does the burden of proof lie? Is the burden of proof with the person claiming someone doesn't have a soul until proven or the one who says they do without any backing? Is the burden of proof on the one who says the ability doesn't work until proven or it does work until proven not to?

You can't prove a negative (unless you use the law of non-contradiction).

Do we have to prove that robots don't have souls? Or is that a reasonable assumption? The only difference between a human and robot in this regard is that a majority thinks people have souls while most think because robots don't. Both don't have any real solid evidence unless the verse shows it. Robots can in fact have souls in some verses. Why isn't it the assumption spread to them? Because of majority or Because Fictional Battle. Which are flippant arguments and reasons.

 

[Andytrenom]

>Do we have to prove that robots don't have souls? Or is that a reasonable assumption?

Yes it is. As reasonable as assuming that the mobile phone of a character doesn't possess a soul.

 

[GreyFang82]

>Do we have to prove that robots don't have souls? Or is that a reasonable assumption?
Yes it is. As reasonable as assuming that the mobile phone of a character doesn't possess a soul.

But in some verses they do.

Do all people have souls?

In quite a few verses they do.

The only difference is majority and belief.

If you want to argue robots can't have souls because of the concept of a soul, one must ask what a soul is, which as discussed before is impossible to standardize.

 

[GreyFang82]

It is getting late for me, you guys can continue talking, I'll be back when I finally get some sleep.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Since the reason we give souls is for combat porpuses, and only done if the other verse never dabbles into them, or explains them too poorly, it should be case by case.

It should work mostly like verse equal, so if the verse of the soulhaxor says that only humans have souls, but not even superinteligent aliens do, that should be assumed. If the soulhaxor's verse says litirally everything has some form of a soul, be it a human or a lifeless rock, that should be assumed.

Pretty much verse equal of a kind. Either this or we are left with basing a standard on a subjective philosophy.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Also because this, immunity to soul hax just because you are not biological should not be assumed for characters like gems, and should only assumed if stated that there is no soul.

 

[Agnaa]

Since the reason we give souls is for combat porpuses, and only done if the other verse never dabbles into them, or explains them too poorly, it should be case by case.

It should work mostly like verse equal, so if the verse of the soulhaxor says that only humans have souls, but not even superinteligent aliens do, that should be assumed. If the soulhaxor's verse says litirally everything has some form of a soul, be it a human or a lifeless rock, that should be assumed.

Pretty much verse equal of a kind. Either this or we are left with basing a standard on a subjective philosophy.

I can't really read/reply to the rest of the thread in-depth right now, but I agree strongly with this post. But I'd note that explicit statements going against the other verse (e.g. character being stated to be soulless) should take priority over the verse equalization.

 

[Andytrenom]

It should work mostly like verse equal, so if the verse of the soulhaxor says that only humans have souls, but not even superinteligent aliens do, that should be assumed. If the soulhaxor's verse says litirally everything has some form of a soul, be it a human or a lifeless rock, that should be assumed.

Minor nitpick. They aren't assumptions in this case.

Overall tho I agree with your points @Ricsi

 

[Andytrenom]

Anyway, Here's what I think about the whole issue.

Ryu makes a lot of sense with his arguments that if a verse never says they have a concept of souls, after life or god then we shouldn't say they do based on the notion that this is a common belief.

But if we assume they do for the sake of a vs thread, are we by necessity going against this idea? I'd argue no.

If I put Izuku against another 8-C with soul destruction, and everyone says that the other 8-C takes the win due to his hax advantage, does that mean the thread is claiming souls are a part MHA's world and if someone were to ask if souls exist in MHA outside a VS matchup context, they would all reply yes? No, what happened was there were two possibilities, one that makes Izuku immune against his opponent's hax and the other that he would be affected just fine and for the purpose of a VS thread only they decided to go with the second one.

The decision to go with a assumption that didn't make Izuku immune against his opponent's ability for the sole reason of souls not being mentioned in his story, is not indicative of how we believe his verse functions in actuality, it's a decision that only mattered in the context of that thread, where we were trying to determine how the stats, abilities, tactics and skills of one character would fare against another and him being assumed to be soulless would have been an unwarranted advantage that severely misrepresented how the respective strengths and weaknesses of the two characters compared to each other.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

This is pretty much verse equal. The two verses and/or piwers don't work the same, but for the sake of a debate we assume they are at least comparable.

 

[Agnaa]

I think it's weird to say that we assume characters have souls based on "common belief" when we don't, we assume they have souls based on verse equalization.

 

[Andytrenom]

That was just me giving my thoughts on the whole discussion between Ryu and Cal.

I wasn't saying that "common belief" was the reason we assume characters have souls.

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah, your post just reminded me of how "common belief" was used in the Ryu/Cal discussion.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Wouldn't souls not being default do some things in Warhammer?

 

[Damage3245]

We give Grimm immunity to soul maipulation due to having no soul.

Wouldn't we just do the same to Medaka characters? And any other characters stated to not have a soul?

 

[Andytrenom]

@Damage Characters stated to have no souls would get immunity, the problem with Medaka from I understood is that it's only implied not confirmed.

 

[Damage3245]

Hmm, I see. If there's no confirmation for it, then I guess it wouldn't be worth mentioning on their profiles.

 

[Agnaa]

It's not really implied, Medaka Box just isn't very spiritual, having no afterlife or resurrection. That's the argument for giving MB characters immunity to soul manip.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Has it been brought up that there is a soul manipulation skill in medaka box already?

"Portable Soul (ÕÉ©Ú¡éµñìþë®, Pōtaburu Souru): Absorb souls skill."

It's one of Ajimu's boss skills.

 

[Agnaa]

OP's response to that was:

This wiki has decided that Ajimu's skills are not to be taken seriously with respect to the verse as a whole. I do not agree with the policy, but that is what stands

If we accept those, we also accept that their are multiple universes that are part of existence, that Kumagawa could erase

Which seems like a slight false equivalency to me, we can't actually tell what Ajimu's skills do so we can't draw conclusions of her or other character's abilities off of them, but it does indicate that souls are possibly a thing in the verse.

 

[DontTalkDT]

My impression always was that we just don't know extent, restrictions and useability, together with interpretation in many cases. In other words that we don't know their practical application more than their theoretical area of application.

But I suppose we better not bother with that debate yet again...

 

[Damage3245]

I agree that they shouldn't be used in match-ups since we don't know any details about them beyond their name and a short description, but it does seem to be a canon mention of souls in the series.

So that would defeat the 'All Medaka characters are immune to soul manipulation' argument.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Has it been brought up that there is a soul manipulation skill in medaka box already?
"Portable Soul (ÕÉ©Ú¡éµñìþë®, Pōtaburu Souru): Absorb souls skill."

It's one of Ajimu's boss skills.

It was previously agreed that Ajimu's skill list isnt to be taken seriously. There was another case where an upgrade hinged partially on the mention of another universe within Ajimu's skills.

I do not agree with the policy, but if we decide to take them seriously then there are other upgrades for Medaka Box to be done.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

@Agnaa

There was never a question of if they "possibly" exist within the verse, it is just astronomically unlikely that they do. Hence everything else I said

 

[GreyFang82]

Here's the problem about assuming the have a soul for the sake of a vsbattle. If I were to set up a battle between Saitama (who doesn't be have chakra or any supernatural energy he uses) and a non-uchia who uses genjutsu, are they entitled to have their mind had to work despite his lake of chakra to manipulate?

If so then fine, assuming they have a soul makes sense.

But if not, then why are soul haxors entitled to have their ability work?

 

[The_Smashor]

Yeah, the way souls work varies greatly. For example, in verses like JoJo's Bizzare Adventure and Mega Ma simply being able to think gets you a soul (See Foo Fighters and Reploids). I feel like we should do this:

In verses that have not confirmed or deconfirmed souls we:

If they are a living thing, assume they have a soul that can be manipulated, and if it is removed they can't live.

If they are not a living thing (I.E. a machine), assume they lack a soul and as such are immune to Soul Manip.

If a verse has deconfirmed the existance of souls:

If a character has Low-Godly regen it is automatically upgraded to Mid-Godly since they can't regen from a soul if they don't have one.

We are assume they are immune to Soul Manipulation

We state so on the verse page

If a verse has special rules for souls:

We show them on the verse page as to not cause confusion

 

[GreyFang82]

In verses that have not confirmed or have not deconfirmed souls we:

Again, why reverse the burden of proof?

Why is the null hypotheses or the default position, yes they have souls.

 

[The_Smashor]

Beacause the people in most verses, including our own, assume they have souls for the most part.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

No to most of those honestly.

We don't assume they have souls or not unless confirmed. Verse equal comes into play if souls are not ever brought up, and whenever someone has one will be decided by the soulhaxor's verse's. standards. In kane chronicels anything has a soul, from a rock to abstract gods.

We never assume they have souls, just as no one assumes goku has a chakra system, but we still make them having unless it contradicts their own rules.

If the verse mentions that there is no soul, then there is no soul, that's it.

Low-godly can, and often does rely on the mind, not just the soul. If it's mentioned how nothing was left of them it's mid-godly regardless, but a souless verse can have low-godly.

You can mention it on the power of the verse, but it shouldn't be mandatory.

 

[GreyFang82]

Beacause the people in most verses, including our own, assume they have souls for the most part.

So ad populum

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

So ad populum

Did you not read the part of this debate above where it was said that we don't assume they actualy have it, but just use verse equal?

Do you believe anyone here thinks that chakra and ki are the same thing?

 

[GreyFang82]

-snip-

From what Wok said, the chakra thing for verse equalizing only applies if there is a comparable thing in the verse.

Why are souls different? Why are soul haxors entitled for their ability on those without it to work but Naruto characters can't use it against people like John Wick.

 

[GreyFang82]

So ad populum

Did you not read the part of this debate above where it was said that we don't assume they actualy have it, but just use verse equal?
Do you believe anyone here thinks that chakra and ki are the same thing?

I was replying to smash, who literally used that argument above me.

No charkra and ki arn't the same thing but according to Wok those two are treated the same because of verse equalization.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Well, several disagree with wok, since chakra is litirally an energy you have as long as you have functioning cells and can think. (Being able to use it on the other hand..,)

And don't act like it's soul manipulation the only thing here. Or do you think that everyone has a metaphysical mind?


For your second post:

Yeah, and I replied to him saying that I disagree.

Yes. Verse Equalizetion is the act of making two verses similiar enough to be able to interact. We give others metaphysical minds, souls, assume that they have a fate tha can be manipulated, etc.

 

[The_Smashor]

Alright, I agree. For verses that are unconfirmed Verse Equalization should come into play.