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Senna's Feat 2 (ft. Bleach Cosmology)

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Teezar said:
This is heavily wrong and we don't use likes to justify CRTs.
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Are y'all still replying to this? This one sentence i used as supporting evidence for my point, not even a serious one? What do you want to achieve by this? A pat on the back with the words "you did good Teezar! You said this guy who left two messages is wrong! Good job!"? How about you reply to something else, something related to the actual downgrade going down. I just scrolled through this entire page of 99 replies and not one of them were your response, yet you decided to specifically reply to this one message of mine that people forgot about already, idek how you would find it at this point within the 400 replies.
This thing you said was already said to me about this SPECIFIC SENTENCE LIKE 5 FREAKING TIMES. It's like that one time in the classroom when the teacher says something to a kid and like 5 other kids repeat it to him again later on like he's a freaking idiot or something.
I am not an idiot, i got your message the first 5 times, no need for another. Is it so hard to forget a message i made a 100-200 replies ago? This doesn't add anything to the conversation, it is a useless reply that has been told to me already. Now go reply to something actually important at this point instead of beating a horse so dead it's fossilized.
 
Tbf its a comment from page 2 of 5, im pretty sure Arceus got the point when the last 5th or so person pointed it out,

id be lowkey triggered aswell if its constantly bought up for browny points. It has already been addressed forget the issue, you don't need to constantly remind someone of an illogical/fallacy.
 
@Arceus0x; calm down. If somebody sees something that stands out to them in a post then they're not going to scroll through the rest of the thread to see if anyone else has already responded to you about that. They're more than likely going to want to address it themselves.
 
Damage3245 said:
@Arceus0x; calm down. If somebody sees something that stands out to them in a post then they're not going to scroll through the rest of the thread to see if anyone else has already responded to you about that. They're more than likely going to want to address it themselves.
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Not to be offensive but that's dumb. Whenever i see an issuse brought up in a long thread or something i agree/disagree with i always look at the replies to see whether or not this has been addressed as otherwise I'll just bring up a topic that was already concluded. Often people move on really quick and the point i wanted to say has been said already so i check for that.
The only times i reply to a person without checking whether or not it's been addressed is when i click on a thread and it sends me like 3 pages before the current conversation and i don't notice that.
 
CFYOW
Out of curiosity, what was the debunk to this? Outside of "them being planets doesn't inherently contradict the sentence/it's just a comparison".

現世と尸魂界を星と喩えるならば、その星同士を結ぶパイプラインが「断界」であり、それら全てを取り巻く宇宙空間にあたるものが「黒腔」と呼ばれている。
"If the world of the living and the Soul Society could be likened to planets and the pipeline that connected them were Dangai, the void of space that surrounded those was called Garganta." ~VIZ
"If, to speak figuratively, the world of the living and the Soul Society were planets, the pipeline linking the fellow planets would be Dangai, and the outerspace surrounding everything is called Garganta." ~Me

喩える means: to compare (something) to; to liken; to speak figuratively; to use a simile; to use a metaphor. Here is a list of example sentences using the kanji as well. The example sentences, at least to me, seem like the kanji is exclusively used to compare objects that aren't the same (aka comparing a planet to a planet). Rather they compare raisins on bread to electrons, or walking into a scary scenario to entering a blackhole, etc.

My reason in pointing that out, is that this kanji seems to be used primarily metaphorically/non-literally. Furthermore, VIZ translated 宇宙空間 to "void of space" rather than "outerspace", which may seem nitpicky. However, if you went by "void of space" you could claim that the comparison is literal, because Garganta is a void of [reishi] space, but Garganta is certainly not outerspace. Considering the actual kanji used is for outerspace as opposed to just a void of space, I am further questioning the intent with the comparison being able to be taken literally.

Going by the sentence, if the realms in question were literally planets, Garganta must also be literally outerspace. Furthermore, the fact that Garganta isn't literally outerspace, seems to imply that the sentence and comparisons in it are purely metaphorical. My line of reasoning being, if the realms were planets why mention "if they could be likened to planets" why not just call them planets? For example, if the realms were straight up planets I'd expect the sentences to go more akin to: "Considering the living world and Soul Society are planets connected by Dangai, Garganta is like another outerspace surrounding them all."

I'm aware this is majorly semantics, so I'm content if the majority just vote to throw away this statement more or less. However, to me the point of easy to understand comparisons (as this is being argued to be nothing more than) is that they take things that are hard to understand and liken them to things they are not but are much easier to understand. Prime example, if someone were to ask me how important my mom is, I could (to steal from Bleach) liken my siblings, dad, and I to planets, where my mom is the Sun we revolve around; I could also liken my family to a single living being and my mom to the heart that keeps the being alive. Point in case, I can't think of any comparisons used to "dumb things down/explain them" that compare whatever is being talked about to itself.

Lastly, to reiterate what I said earlier, if the realms were just planets, but they needed to make an analogy for Garganta, they could've just called the realms planets and said the Garganta was like a "second/other" outerspace. Personally, I feel said statement from CFYOW carries some "realms aren't planets" intent within it.

Toshiro
To touch upon Toshiro's planet statement, I'll quote my last CRT, but tldr it doesn't inherently mean the realms are planets, the Kyogoku could just be connecting the realms at the point where those planets are.
That is not inherently the case, just because the Kyogoku is connecting the realms at two specific places (two planets), does not make the realms inherently planets. For example, if I grab someone by the hand and drag them around, I am pulling their entire being while only being connected at the hand, but if someone points out that two hands are connecting that doesn’t mean we are both only hands. Essentially, all Toshiro’s statement means is that the Kyogoku is connected to two planets, it does not prove in any way that the Kyogoku is only dragging planets.

Universe
VIZ does throw around the terms "universe" and "all of creation" a decent amount of times throughout the manga and novels. Those scans have been thrown around a lot in this thread, so I won't bother finding them and linking them for my own sanity. However, I'll bring up that throughout every single mention of "universe/existence/all of creation/etc" it's in reference to the sum of the realms and perhaps the other dimensions (like Garganta and Dangai). So, I believe destroying all the significant realms (3 realms of existence, Dangai, and Garganta) is still universal, regardless of how we treat the sizes of the 3 realms of existence (HM, SS, and WotL). The reason I bring this up (because it's lowkey irrelevant to the thread at hand), is because I think the realms being a major piece of the universe again implies they are supposed to be larger than planets, and the implication potentially goes as far as to say WotL + SS = a universe. [If scans are really, really wanted for this I'll snag them]

Miscellaneous
Other than the above two instances, "planet" and the realms are never referenced in the same sentence. Every other instance of the realms (primarily SS and WotL) being mentioned doesn't concretely distinguish between what they are. There exists moisture and water outside of the planet Earth, so not even the infamous Yama Bankai statements inherently refer to Soul Society as a planet. I could go into ever other instance and mention why it isn't inherently referring to a planet or larger realm space, but I find that unnecessary as they don't aid us in determining what the realm actually is. Personally, as for determining what the realms are, I find most everything besides the cosmological descriptions and mention of the word "planet" to be fluff that doesn't narrow things down.


Conclusion
As for how we treat Senna's feat and addressing that directly, the cosmology depiction in the movie is slightly off from Kubo's final diagram. Dangai in the film highkey takes the shape and role as Garganta in the movie (considering the movie was conceived prior to Garganta that is probably why). In all Kubo's later depictions of the cosmology, Dangai is just that tunnel structure we see and Garganta is the massive reishi void surrounding everything, but in the movie Dangai is both. So, I could see an argument for treating the MoN cosmology (for the sake of calcs and feats) as different from the end of series/more fleshed out cosmology.

In other words, I'm okay with treating the realms as planets for Senna's feat, due to the visible differences in how the movie portrays the cosmology vs the TYBW/CFYOW descriptions (which to my knowledge is what this CRT is addressing). The matter of if the realms are always and only planets should get its own spotlight.
 
I'll briefly reply to the stuff that has already been addressed previously in the thread, just in case if it was missed.

Arc7Kuroi said:
Furthermore, VIZ translated 宇宙空間 to "void of space" rather than "outerspace", which may seem nitpicky.
Click to expand...
In that context, void of space just means vacuum of space between two real planets. So that's just nitpicking semantics.

Arc7Kuroi said:
Going by the sentence, if the realms in question were literally planets, Garganta must also be literally outerspace.
Click to expand...
The difference is, the WotL and SS are not literally planets that have a common vacuum of space between them like your usual real life planets. Which is what was used as a comparison. The example used here to explain Garganta were two planets that do have the same vacuum of space between them, since the actual planets they are taking about are in different dimensions. This comparison wouldn't have made sense otherwise.

Arc7Kuroi said:
"if they could be likened to planets" why not just call them planets?
Click to expand...
If I look at it with that perspective, then why not just call them dimensions? Just say "If WotL and SS were dimensions, then the dimensional gap between them is filled with Garganta."

Arc7Kuroi said:
Personally, I feel said statement from CFYOW carries some "realms aren't planets" intent within it.
Click to expand...
The statement only implies that Garganta isn't exactly space, just like how WotL and SS aren't exactly like real life planets that have the vacuum of space between them. I tried to explain this comparison in the OP as well as here.
At best case scenario, this is an alternative interpretation of the statement, but it can't be used to say that is undeniably true. Because it uses the logic of a=/=b to imply a==c, when a==d, a==e, etc. are also possible results.

Arc7Kuroi said:
To touch upon Toshiro's planet statement, I'll quote my last CRT, but tldr it doesn't inherently mean the realms are planets, the Kyogoku could just be connecting the realms at the point where those planets are.
Click to expand...
Another possible interpretation but it would also require a higher amount of evidence to back itself up. In that context, planets make infinitely more sense. It is kind of like me saying I will destroy the world, referring to the planet, but understood as me referring to the universe without sufficient backing.

Arc7Kuroi said:
VIZ does throw around the terms "universe" and "all of creation" a decent amount of times throughout the manga and novels.
Click to expand...
I included some of them in the OP and addressed them there. They use the word "sekai" to refer to the system of Earth and SS (and HM), but Viz has translated it as universe.

Arc7Kuroi said:
Other than the above two instances, "planet" and the realms are never referenced in the same sentence. Every other instance of the realms (primarily SS and WotL) being mentioned doesn't concretely distinguish between what they are. There exists moisture and water outside of the planet Earth, so not even the infamous Yama Bankai statements inherently refer to Soul Society as a planet.
Click to expand...
There is that Kisuke statement where he mentions SS planet and its dimension in the same statement, where he calls the planet as "Soul Society" and says it is in a different dimension (which he leaves unnamed). There are also several examples in the OP where they definitely 100% refer to the planets. Like "earthly creatures", "soil/sky/moisture of SS", etc. Water is present outside Earth as ice, you don't exactly find moisture in space. Saying that it is referring to the moisture of universe seems like a leap in logic.

Arc7Kuroi said:
the cosmology depiction in the movie is slightly off from Kubo's final diagram. Dangai in the film highkey takes the shape and role as Garganta in the movie (considering the movie was conceived prior to Garganta that is probably why).
Click to expand...
Honestly, this can be attributed as a minor inconsistency because the verse was still ongoing at the time and the cosmology wasn't finalized. A lot of other series also face this problem.

Arc7Kuroi said:
In other words, I'm okay with treating the realms as planets for Senna's feat
Click to expand...
I believe we have sufficient amount of agreement to go ahead with the changes then. The thread has also been devoid of any substantial discussion in the past 36-or-so hours, so we can probably wrap it up.
 
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I don't agree with the OP, but I can see how people could interpret them as just planets. Doesn't really make sense given the context of the lore. But we know for a fact that Kubo doesn't like to spoon feed us info and likes to leave things open to interpretation. It's literally just semantics regarding how you interpret the series rather than anything objective. The 3-A to Low 2-C could be changed to likely or possibly, and anything that scales off of the lowballed Senna Calc could just give the ratings an 'At least'.

At least Insert Senna Calc, Likely/Possibly current 3-A to Low 2-C ratings since the literal feat is the same. The only difference is interpretation on the size of the realms, which aren't objective and sometimes refers to planets and sometimes refer to the entire realms. I think it's pretty clear that Yhwach undoing the Soul King's feats are clearly referring to the realms rather than planets but it's still up to interpretation.

If the only difference between what tier they end up in is how the size of the realm is interpreted, but the feat is still the same, an At Least-Likely/Possibly is fair to both interpretations and not stepping on anyone's toes. If what we want is accuracy, then disregarding the universe sized realms interpretation would be disingenuous
 
AKM sama said:
I believe we have sufficient amount of agreement to go ahead with the changes then. The thread has also been devoid of any substantial discussion in the past 36-or-so hours, so we can probably wrap it up.
Click to expand...
RanaProGamer said:
So I guess we'll be going back to using this Senna feat?
vsbattles.fandom.com

Recalc of Senna pushing away Planets

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
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Can prolly just swap the current Senna calc listed on the page with this one, it’s what we used prior.
 
Jo-Smooth said:
I don't agree with the OP, but I can see how people could interpret them as just planets. Doesn't really make sense given the context of the lore. But we know for a fact that Kubo doesn't like to spoon feed us info and likes to leave things open to interpretation. It's literally just semantics regarding how you interpret the series rather than anything objective. The 3-A to Low 2-C could be changed to likely or possibly, and anything that scales off of the lowballed Senna Calc could just give the ratings an 'At least'.

At least Insert Senna Calc, Likely/Possibly current 3-A to Low 2-C ratings since the literal feat is the same. The only difference is interpretation on the size of the realms, which aren't objective and sometimes refers to planets and sometimes refer to the entire realms. I think it's pretty clear that Yhwach undoing the Soul King's feats are clearly referring to the realms rather than planets but it's still up to interpretation.

If the only difference between what tier they end up in is how the size of the realm is interpreted, but the feat is still the same, an At Least-Likely/Possibly is fair to both interpretations and not stepping on anyone's toes. If what we want is accuracy, then disregarding the universe sized realms interpretation would be disingenuous
Click to expand...

They are not 3A or low 2C off of Senna's calc so they are still 3A to low 2C, it is like people did not read the OP entirely. this is for the movie not the rest of the series
 
Besides Senna, are there any other profiles that need to be updated?
 
Well, I'll let Damage make the relevant changes. I am not yet intricately familiar with how our profiles are rated/scaled internally.
 
No wait, I actually was wrong, this was under notes for calculations.
  • Characters that are Multi-Galaxy level scaling from Weakened Soul King's stabilization is 179 TenagigaFoe
So yeah, they would still have 3-B for scaling to the stabilization, you'd just be replacing the calc link since we don't even use 3-C in the ratings.
 
RanaProGamer said:
No wait, I actually was wrong, this was under notes for calculations.
  • Characters that are Multi-Galaxy level scaling from Weakened Soul King's stabilization is 179 TenagigaFoe
So yeah, they would still have 3-B for scaling to the stabilization, you'd just be replacing the calc link since we don't even use 3-C in the ratings.
Click to expand...
One of the reasons why that was accepted though was this:

I believe I have proved the validity of Reio’s stabilization and quantified it, as well as provided a highly supportive calc to further strengthen this tier. To reiterate the above points, Weakened Reio stabilizes a universe sized realm with his own Reiryoku (spiritual power) quantifiably to Multi-Galaxy levels of power, and Senna’s explosion did not merely push two planets away but rather moved the very realms themselves. That is numerous statements plus two tier 3 supporting feats.
Click to expand...

Senna's feat was argued first to be Galaxy level in order to support the Multi-Galaxy Weakened Soul King so that it wouldn't be an outlier.
 
Damage3245 said:
One of the reasons why that was accepted though was this:



Senna's feat was argued first to be Galaxy level in order to support the Multi-Galaxy Weakened Soul King so that it wouldn't be an outlier.
Click to expand...
I don’t see why matters when it’s a still a feat that only scales to god tiers?

By that logic, no feat could be accepted unless they have another feat that’s close to it. And it’s done by a god tier that has only one other feat that’s 3A to Low 2C
 
SilentBob34 said:
I don’t see why matters when it’s a still a feat that only scales to god tiers?

By that logic, no feat could be accepted unless they have another feat that’s close to it. And it’s done by a god tier that has only one other feat that’s 3A to Low 2C
Click to expand...
Well it's still relevant because the original context has changed now.

@AKM sama @Arc7Kuroi What do you think?
 
Actually AKM did say this:

Note: The focus of this thread is Senna's feat. Not the rest. Details about Yhwach's feat will be discussed in a later thread.
Click to expand...

So I assume AKM has a plan, and I won't touch the other God Tiers.
 
Damage3245 said:
Actually AKM did say this:



So I assume AKM has a plan, and I won't touch the other God Tiers.
Click to expand...
so until then, they’re still scaling off of the 3B feat?

If that’s the case, then this entire thread has gone on this long because of a single calc that has no effect on the god tiers and mainly scales to someone that doesn’t even have a profile lol. I wish it would’ve been this simple in the beginning
 
Yeah, if Senna's feat was used as a supporting reason for 3-B and not the main reason, then only change Senna's calc for now. I do have plans to talk about God tiers later.
 
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SilentBob34 said:
If that’s the case, then this entire thread has gone on this long because of a single calc that has no effect on the god tiers and mainly scales to someone that doesn’t even have a profile lol. I wish it would’ve been this simple in the beginning
Click to expand...
Well, a feat doesn't have to be absolutely crucial for a verse for it to be controversial or generate discussion.
 
KLOL506 said:
If everyone was told from the beginning that the 3-A to Low 2-C feats never hinged upon Senna's feat and that the 3-A to Low 2-C feats were their own can of worms to deal with, this wouldn't have been such a shitshow.
Click to expand...
Well, Senna's feat itself is heavily dependent on how we treat the cosmology to begin with. That is why the cosmology aspect was the major part of the OP. Senna's feat is only the result of that. I just didn't want to discuss Yhwach's feat here too, because it has its own details and so much in one thread would have been a clusterfuck.
 
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