See, we told you we were working on it! (Naruto Revision Part 1: Scaling)

[PrinceofPein]

No, she absolutely doesn't

I am going to address this
Yes Tsunade has way more chakra than Sakura lore wise
Tsunade is literally a Senju known for their great chakra reserves
And karin saying tsunade has almost drained her chakra is a big supporting feat for Tsuanade. Karin is an Uzumaki also known for their large chakra and from Karin feats of replenishing chakra of multiple people per day and sasuke chakra 3 times a day also. And Tsunade drained her at a go, that's a supporting feat.

 

[KingTempest]

Spoiler

Sakura absolutely Rivals Tsunade in strength with her Byakugo

I beg to differ

this is Irrelevant, we have multiple statements putting Sakura on the level of KCM who is significantly above his base form.

This is irrelevant, cause my argument was tackling the apparent "implications" brought by every scene of Team 7 shown. Every time they walk by each other it's an implication of something.

No, it doesn't like at all, the full context of this scene is that Shikamaru is brought back thanks to naruto and Tsunade finishes it off, this is the equivalent of two people filling up a glass with water near full and then the third person adds enough water to make sure the water reaches just before tipping point and then arguing the third person did all the work, if anything if we were to steelman this argument, it's not really a quantifiable feat for either Sakura or Tsunade as Naruto's chakra is doing the heavy lifting.

Naruto and Sakura together bring him back at a slow rate.
Shikamaru was skin and bones and we can see the speed lines when Tsunade touches him, heals instantly.

No, she absolutely doesn't

Senju and Uzumaki chakra which for 3 days was good enough to be used during the war?
vs
Haruno chakra which was accumulated for 3 years which ran out in less than 48 hours?

except for the fact that the manga outright tells us Sakura has more to spare thanks to not wanting to maintain appearances

She doesn't have more spare.
Compared to her volume she has a higher percentage not used towards

This has nothing to with not being able to heal Shikamaru, it's about realizing that most of the Shinobi's chakra have been sapped along with Katsuyu's fragments and being unable to save literally everyone while your teammate is passively trying to heal everyone, Sakura is feeling inadequate and wants naruto to focus on the battle why do you think we can an establishing shot of every drained Shinobi on the battlefield and then a flashbackof Naruto saying we might as well go down fighting to the best of our abilities followed by This inner Monologue unless you want to argue that Shikamaru has a larger chakra pool than Both naruto and obito lol.

Not really, it's the fact that the moment Tsunade lays her hand on him, he gets healed.

Tsunade fought for a few hours god bodied, healed the 5 Kage and then got her reserves back thanks to Karin.
Sakura fought in the war for much longer periods than Tsunade, healed dozens of people through the entire war, then went on to summon a giant Katsuyu and then spread Katsuyu across the battlefield to heal thousands of Shinobi, then healed base naruto, then healed Obito, then healed Kakashi, Then gave Obito enough Chakra to cross Kaguya's Dimension Twice, which has been told to us to be absolutely massively far from one another (this alone ***** on anything Tsunade has done) then still had enough chakra to act as Decoy for Madara and heal both Naruto and Sasuke from the brink of death at the valley of End.

Much longer periods than who???

And Tsunade's working off of the chakra molded from like 3 days prior to the war since she drained herself in Pain Arc while Sakura's working off of 3 years?
Tsunade fought from sun up to sun down and after that.

The fact that a case can be made for 3d Tsunade vs 3y Sakura shows Tsunade has more chakra.

No, because the Orochimaru statement you're referring to is talking about the creation of Rebirth not the strength of a hundred seal as seen here and here

Strength of a Hundred Healings is literally the combination of creation rebirth and the Hundred Healings seal.
Without 1, the whole thing isn't there.

this isn't relevant like at all, I don't think anyone is arguing that normal Sakura without amping herself is as naturally as powerful as Tsunade.

I'm stated that them with comparable amps but a superior base would make Tsunade superior.

You don't have to believe Sakura is>>> Tsunade, but Sakura is absolutely for a fact a peer to Tsunade in her later forms.

The fact that Sakura's amped form is comparable to Tsunade's base form says a lot.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

she's lower than sick Uchihas while Sakura's damn near Madara's level.

If you're referring to Sick Itachi, then no he's not really above her. He's 7-B, while Tsunade's "At least 7-B" (for reference, all of the "At least 7-B characters were 7-A before the Kirin calc was removed until Damage makes his CGM thread. So no, Sannin were not below Sick Itachi, power wise)

GokuSparkle brought a good scan so props for you on that. They did technically imply Orochimaru is stronger than Taka Sasuke.

I already addressed this. And tbf, that statement is extremely suspect anyway. It's referring to them in plural, not just Sasuke. So are we supposed to believe that Suigetsu is scared shitless of Orochimaru even though he's surpassed him already?
And as I told Sparkle, that statement makes no specification as to which version of Sasuke "just surpassed Orochimaru". It would be in line with FKS Sasuke being above CS2 though, which would make him Oro level in base, and above him with the Susano'o.

I need to tackle the Jiraiya stuff next comment. Cause the Sannin being this low is scary.

They will never be High 7-A in base. I've tried, but it's impossible without wank.

And I know it's unintentional, but I'll be devil's advocate against the current Sannin ratings. Especially the Hiruzen ratings of being comparable to Hidan. Gahlee

Bro, it really feels like you ain't reading the profiles.
How is Hiruzen (At least 33 megatons, previously 334 megatons) comparable to Hidan (9.93 megatons)?? Not all 7-Bs are the same as I've said before.

 

[KingTempest]

If you're referring to Sick Itachi, then no he's not really above her. He's 7-B, while Tsunade's "At least 7-B" (for reference, all of the "At least 7-B characters were 7-A before the Kirin calc was removed until Damage makes his CGM thread. So no, Sannin were not below Sick Itachi, power wise)

My bad, I forgot sickTachi and healthyTachi were different

I already addressed this. And tbf, that statement is extremely suspect anyway. It's referring to them in plural, not just Sasuke. So are we supposed to believe that Suigetsu is scared shitless of Orochimaru even though he's surpassed him already?

Yes, let them be god tiers
It's referring to their mentors, not Orochimaru. Orochimaru isn't his mentor, Zabuza and Kisame are, which was Suigetsu's plot point the entire time, to surpass Kisame who he fought during Itachi vs Sasuke and Sasuke said that he wouldn't be on his level yet.
Idk who'd it be for Jugo tho.
Can you quote where you tackled it? Sorry it's hard to look for stuff here.

And as I told Sparkle, that statement makes no specification as to which version of Sasuke "just surpassed Orochimaru". It would be in line with FKS Sasuke being above CS2 though, which would make him Oro level in base, and above him with the Susano'o.

It says "just", which means that he recently surpassed him. That was never stated for his previous forms where they commented on his power.

They will never be High 7-A in base. I've tried, but it's impossible without wank.

Nah it's possible. Gimme a few days tho

Bro, it really feels like you ain't reading the profiles.
How is Hiruzen (At least 33 megatons, previously 334 megatons) comparable to Hidan (9.93 megatons)?? Not all 7-Bs are the same as I've said before.

(3.33333x is comparable bro)

 

[KingTempest]

Pain stated that Naruto had pushed him farther than ever before, which should put him above Sage Jiraiya

Note: Fukusaku’s statement of Naruto surpassing his predecessors is considered as being applicable to both his base form and Sage Mode because Jiraiya and Minato are both Sages - with Minato being a perfect Sage - so if Naruto surpassed them in Sage Mode, he would logically have to surpass them in base as well. This is further supported by both in- and out-of-universe statements, with Pain declaring that Naruto had pushed him farther than anyone before and Naruto being stated to have possibly become more powerful than Jiraiya.

Ok so this is why the Sannin are fodder I'm assuming.

I've read these fights several times so here goes.

Spoiler

Jiraiya​

Jiraiya initially wasn't even trying to kill anybody. He went to go gather intel and he was talking to Konan. When he met Nagato again he tried to have conversation. Even when half dead he wanted to go confirm if the dudes he were fighting were the real ones. WHILE HE'S DYING he's thinking about getting info out.
Whole time, they wanted to kill Jiraiya.

• Pain orders Konan to kill Jiraiya.
• Pain tells her to eliminate him.
• Konan says she will kill Jiraiya.
• Nagato says that Jiraiya is about to die.
• They kill Jiraiya.

Against Jiraiya they completely countered him. He states that they know his weaknesses.

• They could wash away his toad oil.
• They could absorb his jutsu. Again.
• The Path that he incapacitated prior can block his Taijutsu while off guard.
• He states that his ninjutsu being nullified will lead to him being killed.
• He says Taijutsu doesn't work and that his ninjutsu will be absorbed.
• Then when he's perfectly fine, they attack him off guard and rips his arm off.

The one minute they confirm that they don't know something about Jiraiya, the Jutsu kills three of them.
While he's injured, he kills one of them.

And his props?

• Obito says that Jiraiya must have lived up to his reputation and implied that Pain was wounded via the "you seem to be struggling" comment.
• Then his famous "he probably would've won if he had prior knowledge" statement.
• Black Zetsu justifies it by saying that it was Jiraiya that they fought.

And can we remember that Jiraiya went in there alone? Summoned 3 people and that's it?

Naruto​

Pain was far away from the source body and he used a life axing jutsu in the beginning of the fight. Konan states that the other paths recover slower after Nagato focused all their chakra on Tendo.

Pain was not trying to kill Naruto.

• We see on several occasions that Akatsuki fight Jinchuriki and don't intend to kill them.
  • Gaara was forced to be kept alive.
  • Roshi was stated to have been dying, implying that he was fought with the intent to be kept alive.
  • Kisame confirms that they need to keep the Jinchuriki alive.
  • Madara issues the operation a capture mission. Again.
  • Sasuke says he's here to capture Bee, not kill him.
  • Akatsuki said not to wipe out the Jinchuriki.
  • Suigetsu says that initially they were fighting to capture, not to kill, and that they should fight with the intent to kill in order to capture him.
  • They emphasize that their goal was not to kill him.
  • Naruto after the fight with Pain says that the Akatsuki always try to take the Jinchuriki alive.
  • Obito, even during the war, tried to capture Naruto instead of killing.
  • After Naruto smacks around the Bijuu, Obito says he needs to fight him with the intent to kill.
• We see this in the fight as well.
  • They just wanted to incapacitate and capture Naruto, which they did with relative ease.
  • When Pain got Naruto on the ground, he avoided all his vitals because he wanted to capture him.
  • He trapped him in a mini planet and said "Operation capture Kyuubi complete".
  • Pain was trying to see how strong the 9 tails was.
• The pains didn't try any lethal techniques.
  • Didn't even try to soul rip him.
  • Didn't try the Deva x Asura combo.
  • Didn't try to snipe him.
  • Didn't try to feed him to the king of hell.
• So Pain wasn't trying to kill him.

And for every Naruto thread I've witnessed, not trying to kill = holding back pretty much. So Pain was holding back on Naruto.

Naruto came in the fight with help. He had Fukasaku, Shima, Gamabunta, Gamaken, and Gamahiro come help him. Unlike Jiraiya who came alone.

Naruto had a way to bypass all of Jiraiya's issues.

• Jiraiya's taijutsu couldn't work because the Pain would just dodge/block his attacks, and ninjutsu didn't work on him either because he would've absorbed it.
  • Naruto used an undodgeable taijutsu attack, which was noted by Pain to have been attempted to be avoided.
• Jiraiya struggled with overcoming the sight of the Paths.
  • Naruto destroyed one off guard when no one was focusing on him.
  • Sent one Pain inside a toad's mouth where no one could see them, then Naruto killed it.
  • Naruto used smoke bombs to surprise the Pains and attack one from above.
  • Manipulated a Pain who needed to stay still and haxed him to death.
• Jiraiya was on his own most of the time
  • Naruto had the Sages do Frog Song off rip.
  • The toads handled the summons. Here, here, here, here, here.
  • Shima made a smokescreen.
  • Fukusaku summoned his clone for him.
• Jiraiya needed prior knowledge to win.
  • Naruto had Katsuyu on his shoulder for the whole fight, verbatim stated to be there for intel.
  • She told Naruto about the absorber Pain's ability of absorbing ninjutsu, which Jiraiya needed to find out.
  • She told Naruto about the Deva Path and the time interval.
  • She told Naruto about the info that the Paths of Pain are puppets.

In Conclusion​

Using these statements for strength when in a powerscaling perspective, Jiraiya is superior, is an issue.
It'd be unfair to take the other statements into strict evaluation but to allow this statement to be 100% for AP.

The most it'd be for is for the rasenshuriken.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I too think that Sannins are kinda downplayed here, mainly because of statements of Naruto supposedly surpassing Jiraiya, wich can be interpreted in different ways and/or not meant to be his base form. "Naruto surpassing his predecessors" can just mean that Naruto surpassed them in Senjutsu control, for example.

 

[M3X_2.0]

And I'm willing to belive this is about Senjutsu control, since we know Jiraiya isn't good on that and Minato take some time to gather some. Surpassing them in Sage Mode doesn't mean Naruto is surpassing them in base as well, this makes no sense. His Sage Mode can just be stronger than both Jiraiya's and Minato's.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

My bad, I forgot sickTachi and healthyTachi were different

Fair. Though it's a weird thing to forget lol. I know you're not the biggest Itachi supporter , but not knowing that healthy Itachi is stronger than his blind deathbed self is just

Yes, let them be god tiers
It's referring to their mentors, not Orochimaru. Orochimaru isn't his mentor, Zabuza and Kisame are, which was Suigetsu's plot point the entire time, to surpass Kisame who he fought during Itachi vs Sasuke and Sasuke said that he wouldn't be on his level yet.
Idk who'd it be for Jugo tho.

Yeah, but calling someone he's interacted with, like, twice his mentor would be very strange. But fair, let's go with that for Suigetsu I guess (just hypothetically, I don't think this one-off indirect statement that doesn't even mention Kisame would be enough to put him above him lol)

Can you quote where you tackled it? Sorry it's hard to look for stuff here.

We vaguely started discussing it arouuuund here I believe.

It says "just", which means that he recently surpassed him. That was never stated for his previous forms where they commented on his power.

Well, we know that Hebi Sasuke hasn't for sure, because full power Orochimaru is directly stated to be above him twice. That much is certain.
What I'm saying is that the statement doesn't specify which version of FKS Sasuke surpassed Oro. We can't just randomly pick and choose Susano'o versions. At best you could say this puts Orochimaru above the Sasuke that fought Bee, but I'm not really seeing the evidence for him scaling to the Susano'o tbh.

Nah it's possible. Gimme a few days tho

Hehehe take your time

(3.33333x is comparable bro)

He's at least 3.33333x, so he's actually higher than that in the scaling chain. Like I said, he SHOULD'VE BEEN 7-A, but oh well.
Why are we discussing personal preference though? If that was a factor there would be no 7-Bs at all because I despise that tier.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I too think that Sannins are kinda downplayed here, mainly because of statements of Naruto supposedly surpassing Jiraiya, wich can be interpreted in different ways and/or not meant to be his base form. "Naruto surpassing his predecessors" can just mean that Naruto surpassed them in Senjutsu control, for example.

This horse has already been beaten to hell and back. Address the arguments that have been made first before making bold claims, please.

 

[M3X_2.0]

No.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

No.

 

[KingTempest]

I agree with pretty much everything you said but this part

Well, we know that Hebi Sasuke hasn't for sure, because full power Orochimaru is directly stated to be above him twice. That much is certain.
What I'm saying is that the statement doesn't specify which version of FKS Sasuke surpassed Oro. We can't just randomly pick and choose Susano'o versions. At best you could say this puts Orochimaru above the Sasuke that fought Bee, but I'm not really seeing the evidence for him scaling to the Susano'o tbh.

This can't be the case, he was confirmed weaker than the one who fought Itachi. It could only be
1. Base FKS Sasuke or Sharingan FKS Sasuke (around the same level)
2. Early Ribcage Susanoo
3. Human top half Susanoo
4. Armor'd Susanoo
5. EMS

Early ribcage was getting sent flying by Chojuro, so I'm not sure.
Maybe human top half?

 

[M3X_2.0]

I'm not even arguing here. All I said was "I don't agree" and "I don't think", never wanted to debate. Hell one of my comments were "Neji can't be 6-B because it's absurd", the other ones were just some better formatting like the "higher" for Kakashi Susano'o and the ratings in the verse page. I never said "Change that now or face the council"

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I agree with pretty much everything you said but this part

This can't be the case, he was confirmed weaker than the one who fought Itachi.

You misunderstood me. I'm saying Orochimaru would be stronger than that version.

It could only be
1. Base FKS Sasuke or Sharingan FKS Sasuke (around the same level)
2. Early Ribcage Susanoo
3. Human top half Susanoo
4. Armor'd Susanoo
5. EMS

Early ribcage was getting sent flying by Chojuro, so I'm not sure.
Maybe human top half?

Uhhh, Chojuro has no prior feats or scaling, so this is not really an anti-feat for Sasuke.

 

[M3X_2.0]

This can't be the case, he was confirmed weaker than the one who fought Itachi.

This doesn't state that MS Sasuke is weaker, it's just that his current state is weaker. It's like saying that EoS Naruto is weaker than BoS, because right after fighting Sasuke, without an arm and without chakra, he is in a weaker state.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I'm not even arguing here. All I said was "I don't agree" and "I don't think", never wanted to debate. Hell one of my comments were "Neji can't be 6-B because it's absurd", the other ones were just some better formatting like the "higher" for Kakashi Susano'o and the ratings in the verse page. I never said "Change that now or face the council"

Okay.
Now face the council.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

This doesn't state that MS Sasuke is weaker, it's just that his current state is weaker. It's like saying that EoS Naruto is weaker than BoS, because right after fighting Sasuke, without an arm and without chakra, he is in a weaker state.

This only applies to the Bee fight version of Sasuke.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Literally what I said?

 

[KingTempest]

This doesn't state that MS Sasuke is weaker, it's just that his current state is weaker. It's like saying that EoS Naruto is weaker than BoS, because right after fighting Sasuke, without an arm and without chakra, he is in a weaker state.

I know, I'm referring to the Sasuke as of Killer B's fight, which is why I'm not comparing him fully to the one in FKS. Heck, he stated he had to go heal before he went to FKS.

You misunderstood me. I'm saying Orochimaru would be stronger than that version.

Ohhhh, aight, but it'd still be a version above that tho. If Sasuke's weaker than him in CM2, then a higher version (not Killer B fight Sasuke) would've surpassed him, which means one of the versions in 5ks

Uhhh, Chojuro has no prior feats or scaling, so this is not really an anti-feat for Sasuke.

ChojuroFodderGG

Okay.
Now face the council.

 

[KingTempest]

I too think that Sannins are kinda downplayed here, mainly because of statements of Naruto supposedly surpassing Jiraiya, wich can be interpreted in different ways and/or not meant to be his base form. "Naruto surpassing his predecessors" can just mean that Naruto surpassed them in Senjutsu control, for example.

And I'm willing to belive this is about Senjutsu control, since we know Jiraiya isn't good on that and Minato take some time to gather some. Surpassing them in Sage Mode doesn't mean Naruto is surpassing them in base as well, this makes no sense. His Sage Mode can just be stronger than both Jiraiya's and Minato's.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I know, I'm referring to the Sasuke as of Killer B's fight, which is why I'm not comparing him fully to the one in FKS. Heck, he stated he had to go heal before he went to FKS.

Suigetsu said "he'd just surpassed him", so yeah it definitely wouldn't be CM2 or B fight Sasuke. It definitely won't be EMS either because Suigetsu has no knowledge of him at all. So yeah, let's just get those versions out of the way and stop discussing them altogether.

Which version of FKS Sasuke surpassed him? We don't know. We're never told. Could've been base, could've been Sharingan, could've been MS, or one of the Susano'o stages. What I take issue with is picking and choosing between Susano'o versions with no evidence when we have a perfectly valid scaling chain that would offer a logical conclusion, which is:

Orochimaru is above CM2, FKS base Sasuke is also above CM2. This means they're more or less ~
If we go with this, then it'd mean Sasuke has surpassed him with the Susano'o in general, which I think makes sense. I don't think Orochimaru hitting harder than Ay makes any sense, and even he couldn't fully break Sasuke's ribcage.

Ohhhh, aight, but it'd still be a version above that tho. If Sasuke's weaker than him in CM2, then a higher version (not Killer B fight Sasuke) would've surpassed him, which means one of the versions in 5ks

Yeah, it's definitely one of the FKS versions like I said above.

ChojuroFodderGG

I agree, but we can't prove it since........well, he's featless before sending Sasuke flying.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Technically the raws say 濃い which can be interpreted as either thicker or darker, which is more consistent with the several statements from Karin about Sasuke's chakra via the curse of hatred

Sannin fodder again

Wouldn't this make Orochimaru > Sharingan Taka Sasuke?

Idk, it could be interpreted either way

Yup

Yeah, so like I said Sasuke's hatred amps by the end of the Danzo fight could've just been stronger than the amp from the Sharingan at the early FKS.

Just curious, but from this panel, Suigetsu states that 'we' (Taka) surpassed our mentors (Orochimaru). Does this mean that Taka (Suigetsu and Jugo) also got stronger in the War? Would they also get War Keys?

You could honestly argue that, it's in line with their feats against Guruguru Yamato.

He was holding back in the sense that he wasn't actually trying to kill Sasuke. He let him break out of Tsukuyomi for example. But there's no indication that he was holding back physically, quite the opposite in fact. There would've been no real reason for him to get injured by the shuriken trick or have his Katon overpowered only to be forced into using Amaterasu to overpower Sasuke.
As for the difference between the armored and ribcage. I mean, we can assume it's large obviously, but it's not like we have anything concrete either tbh.

There are no such statements. If you're referring to the "Itachi's finally dead!!" stuff, I mean, it's probably just referring to Itachi's deal with Obito not to attack Konoha while he's alive.
And tbh, even if we say that Obito was scared shitless of Itachi, it was probably due to his abilities since he can't even hurt Obito physically due to Kamui.
Speaking of physicals, Obito has no good physical feats outside of kicking away Pre-Pain Naruto, blocking a sword swing from Suigetsu, and surviving a Rasengan from Minato, albeit with injuries.
The Minato thing is neat, but I think we can both agree that his AP feats areare very lacking, and definitely not above Sasuke's.

Yes, a much healthier Itachi. This wouldn't apply to Sick or Deathbed Itachi.

He could've been letting himself get overpowered so he could slowly kill himself quicker. And the difference between the Ribcage and Armored Susanoo can be measured with Madara, as his ribcage can be damaged by Byakugo Tsunade and Ohnoki amped Ay, while the Armored Susanoo tanked a Nine Tails Bijuudama. That's like a 10x or more difference.

That, and the fact that Obito thought Itachi could've killed him, and that in the novel Obito recognized Itachi as an opponent implying their relativity, and a similar statement about an ultimatum in the manga (implying Itachi was enough of a threat that Obito cared about an "ultimatum").

Itachi definitely would've figured out a way to counter Kamui, he has an iq up there with Minato.

Blocking a hit from Suigetsu is a big deal when Bee struggled to hold up his sword with both hands. Plus tanking Minato's Rasengan is a big deal (which I'll explain later ). And yeah Obito doesn't have physical feats above the Susanoo, but him being above Sasuke's body is fine.

I mean I feel like having several more years of training and experience kinda makes up for him being sick. Besides, we don't know he didn't have his sickness then.

And I'm willing to belive this is about Senjutsu control, since we know Jiraiya isn't good on that and Minato take some time to gather some. Surpassing them in Sage Mode doesn't mean Naruto is surpassing them in base as well, this makes no sense. His Sage Mode can just be stronger than both Jiraiya's and Minato's.

I mean...actually Minato did enter it instantly...but he can't maintain it long, so I guess that argument can still work.

Orochimaru is above CM2, FKS base Sasuke is also above CM2. This means they're more or less ~
If we go with this, then it'd mean Sasuke has surpassed him with the Susano'o in general, which I think makes sense. I don't think Orochimaru hitting harder than Ay makes any sense, and even he couldn't fully break Sasuke's ribcage.

Well...I mean, Ay did smack right through it with the lateral bolt of pain chop, he just didn't destroy it fully because his attack wasn't wide range.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

He could've been letting himself get overpowered so he could slowly kill himself quicker.

No offense Sparkle, but this is complete headcanon.

And the difference between the Ribcage and Armored Susanoo can be measured with Madara, as his ribcage can be damaged by Byakugo Tsunade and Ohnoki amped Ay, while the Armored Susanoo tanked a Nine Tails Bijuudama. That's like a 10x or more difference.

That's Prime Madara, who's stronger than Edo Madara. The difference wouldn't be quite as dramatic in Edo Madara's case. Regardless, in terms of actual values, there's no reason to scale Itachi's Armored Susano'o above Sasuke's.....well, any of his Susano'o versions tbh. There's just no connection there.

That, and the fact that Obito thought Itachi could've killed him, and that in the novel Obito recognized Itachi as an opponent implying their relativity, and a similar statement about an ultimatum in the manga (implying Itachi was enough of a threat that Obito cared about an "ultimatum").

Doesn't change anything about what I said though. Obito thought Itachi was a threat because of his abilities. He literally cannot physically harm him lmao.

Itachi definitely would've figured out a way to counter Kamui, he has an iq up there with Minato.

I doubt it. His only chances are Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, but Obito can always Izanagi out of Amaterasu like he did in canon. Regardless, it's not a physical comparison at all.

Blocking a hit from Suigetsu is a big deal when Bee struggled to hold up his sword with both hands.

I'm not seeing the struggle. Especially when Bee easily beat him later, and overwhelmed Sasuke, who's stronger than Suigetsu.

Plus tanking Minato's Rasengan is a big deal (which I'll explain later ).

Maybe, but he didn't really "tank it", just survived it.

And yeah Obito doesn't have physical feats above the Susanoo, but him being above Sasuke's body is fine.

Not without direct feats or statements, it isn't.

I mean I feel like having several more years of training and experience kinda makes up for him being sick. Besides, we don't know he didn't have his sickness then.

That's your opinion, which I respect, but I need something more concrete than that.
We don't even know if Itachi trained, how much he trained, for how long, etc. And experience doesn't translate to physical strength.
We have confirmation that sick Itachi was physically weaker than before, and it only got worse for him from there. I don't think vague "training and experience" can outweigh "he's dying and nearly blind".

Well...I mean, Ay did smack right through it with the lateral bolt of pain chop, he just didn't destroy it fully because his attack wasn't wide range.

He smacked through, yeah, but it still ate enough of the impact to where Sasuke was mostly unharmed.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I beg to differ

I don't care that you beg to differ lol

This is irrelevant, cause my argument was tackling the apparent "implications" brought by every scene of Team 7 shown. Every time they walk by each other it's an implication of something.

This has nothing to do with what I said.

Naruto and Sakura together bring him back at a slow rate.
Shikamaru was skin and bones and we can see the speed lines when Tsunade touches him, heals instantly.

because both Naruto and Sakura (mostly naruto) did the heavy lifting I'm not sure how you cant understand this.
for this argument to work you would have to argue that Shikamaru has a larger chakra pool than both Obito and Naruto and Sasuke.

Senju and Uzumaki chakra which for 3 days was good enough to be used during the war?
vs
Haruno chakra which was accumulated for 3 years which ran out in less than 48 hours?

once again the war does not take place 3 days after the Pain arc, Gamakichi goes from being as big as a small cow to the same size as Gamabunta and says he hasn't seen naruto in a while.

She doesn't have more spare.
Compared to her volume she has a higher percentage not used towards

Yes She does, which is proven by the fact that she does more chakra intensive feats without growing tired as quickly.

Not really, it's the fact that the moment Tsunade lays her hand on him, he gets healed.

yes it Objectively does, the fact that the Tsunade feat happens after she says this contradicts your point as well as the fact that we have direct statements that happen in the manga.

Much longer periods than who???

Then Tsunade, Tsunade joins the battle when Madara arrives, Sakura has been there since day 1.

And Tsunade's working off of the chakra molded from like 3 days prior to the war since she drained herself in Pain Arc while Sakura's working off of 3 years?
Tsunade fought from sun up to sun down and after that.

the War doesn't take place 3 days after the Pain Arc.

The fact that a case can be made for 3d Tsunade vs 3y Sakura shows Tsunade has more chakra.

There isn't that's the issue. Sakura has objectively better feats.

Strength of a Hundred Healings is literally the combination of creation rebirth and the Hundred Healings seal.
Without 1, the whole thing isn't there.

Before you link Databook statements you should actually read them, Strength of Hundred healings is a combination of Strength of a Hundred seals and creation rebirth not Hundred healing seals, it's the combination of both of them, but the strength of a hundred healings is not the same thing as the strength of a hundred seals.

This is the Strength of a Hundred Seal

This is the Creation of Rebirth

They are two separate things

the one that Orochimaru is surprised about is the creation of rebirth.

The Strength of a hundred healings is never mentioned here because it only appears literally in chapter 577 when tsunade combines them.

I'm stated that them with comparable amps but a superior base would make Tsunade superior.

Chakra does not scale linearly unless stated and there is no evidence that the strength of a hundred seals does specifically either.

The fact that Sakura's amped form is comparable to Tsunade's base form says a lot.[/SPOILER]

Pre Wa Arc Sure, by Strength of a Hundred, Seals no.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't care that you beg to differ lol

Let's try to stay a bit respectful while arguing with each other.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I am going to address this
Yes Tsunade has way more chakra than Sakura lore wise

It doesn't matter what the Lore says when Sakura has Objectively better feats,having enough Chakra to get into kaguya's Dimensions is OBJECTIVELY more Impressive than anything Tsunade has done, Characters like Kaguya and Rinnegan Sasuke literally shit themselves from jumping dimensions too much, also being Senju doesn't mean nobody else can have equally large amounts of chakra, it's just that your clan as a whole is known for it, one doesn't Inheretitly disprove the other unless we have feats to support it.

you're not moving my Position on this.

The only way Sakura has way less chakra and can perform better feats is if she has far superior chakra control, which if she does defeats the point of what Tempest was arguing.

And karin saying tsunade has almost drained her chakra is a big supporting feat for Tsuanade. Karin is an Uzumaki also known for their large chakra and from Karin feats of replenishing chakra of multiple people per day and sasuke chakra 3 times a day also. And Tsunade drained her at a go, that's a supporting feat.

It's not because it just means Tsunade has a larger battery to juice up with, this is s Karin feat, not a Tsunade one.

 

[LordTracer]

Her best feat is 2 shotting a Juubi spawn (who everyone can hurt, even base tired Naruto) while Tsunade one shot a Wood Clone of Madara.

That’s Pre-100 Healings Sakura, come on now

I need to tackle the Jiraiya stuff next comment. Cause the Sannin being this low is scary. And I know it's unintentional, but I'll be devil's advocate against the current Sannin ratings. Especially the Hiruzen ratings of being comparable to Hidan. Gahlee.

The Sannin are not low, I reiterate that there’s only like a handful of people at their level. Also something about the way you worded this makes it seem like you’re arguing just because you don’t like where the Sannin are. Not trying to be rude, that’s just what it seems like.

Also Hiruzen would annihilate Hidan, even without the 7-A ratings.

 

[Nierre]

What is with the random vegetables being sent in this thread. Is there something I'm not being told.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I think there might've been a panel that shows that naruto stole 5-6 tails perhaps?

Btw, I stand corrected on this. You were right, Naruto did steal 6-Tails worth of chakra, which is just conveniently consistent with all the other information we have.

 

[RanaProGamer]

Great, so 6 Tails = KCM1?

 

[LordTracer]

That’s basically what we had him at anyways, so yeah.

 

[PrinceofPein]

It doesn't matter what the Lore says when Sakura has Objectively better feats,having enough Chakra to get into kaguya's Dimensions is OBJECTIVELY more Impressive than anything Tsunade has done, Characters like Kaguya and Rinnegan Sasuke literally shit themselves from jumping dimensions too much, also being Senju doesn't mean nobody else can have equally large amounts of chakra, it's just that your clan as a whole is known for it, one doesn't Inheretitly disprove the other unless we have feats to support it.

you're not moving my Position on this.

The only way Sakura has way less chakra and can perform better feats is if she has far superior chakra control, which if she does defeats the point of what Tempest was arguing.

It's not because it just means Tsunade has a larger battery to juice up with, this is s Karin feat, not a Tsunade one.

You just said no one is moving your point on this, so I will quickly drop this ones you failed to address
Explain how sakura chakra rivals tsunade chakra if she needed 3 years of chakra to rival tsunade 3 days worth?

And also I don't know what you mean by it is a feat for karin, when it literally proofs tsuande has great reserves. And the jumping through dimensions is a big plot point unless you think sakura has more chakra than 1/3 of Naruto? Cause naruto had just 2 clones active then, which would mean the entire reason is just not to make sakura entirely useless and contribute to the plot

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Great, so 6 Tails = KCM1?

Nothing changes, it's just another layer of support, for which I am grateful

 

[MinatoSparkle]

No offense Sparkle, but this is complete headcanon.

That's Prime Madara, who's stronger than Edo Madara. The difference wouldn't be quite as dramatic in Edo Madara's case. Regardless, in terms of actual values, there's no reason to scale Itachi's Armored Susano'o above Sasuke's.....well, any of his Susano'o versions tbh. There's just no connection there.

Doesn't change anything about what I said though. Obito thought Itachi was a threat because of his abilities. He literally cannot physically harm him lmao.

I doubt it. His only chances are Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, but Obito can always Izanagi out of Amaterasu like he did in canon. Regardless, it's not a physical comparison at all.

I'm not seeing the struggle. Especially when Bee easily beat him later, and overwhelmed Sasuke, who's stronger than Suigetsu.

Maybe, but he didn't really "tank it", just survived it.

Not without direct feats or statements, it isn't.

That's your opinion, which I respect, but I need something more concrete than that.
We don't even know if Itachi trained, how much he trained, for how long, etc. And experience doesn't translate to physical strength.
We have confirmation that sick Itachi was physically weaker than before, and it only got worse for him from there. I don't think vague "training and experience" can outweigh "he's dying and nearly blind".



He smacked through, yeah, but it still ate enough of the impact to where Sasuke was mostly unharmed.

True, but it's hard to say either way because he was holding back.

Edos are nearly as strong as their Alive counterpart, especially for Madara. Also I'm saying unless Sasuke is 10x or more stronger than Itachi, Itachi's Armored Susanoo would be stronger than his Ribcage Susanoo.

Itachi can hit him while Obito's trying to touch him.

His arm trembled.

Sure but still.

Casually blocking Suigetsu is a better physical feat than what non Susanoo Sqsuke has shown.

I mean he definitely did train to an extent. He went from maybe Shisui+ level to stronger than EMS Sasuke.

He was coughing up blood so idk about unharmed.

Btw, I stand corrected on this. You were right, Naruto did steal 6-Tails worth of chakra, which is just conveniently consistent with all the other information we have.

It was actually 9.

 

[LordTracer]

Edos are nearly as strong as their Alive counterpart, especially for Madara

This is actually very, very, VERY untrue, but we’ll get to that during the Bijuu revisions.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

True, but it's hard to say either way because he was holding back.

Which is irrelevant when we know he was holding back with his hax more so than his physicals. There is zero indication that he was holding back physically.

Edos are nearly as strong as their Alive counterpart, especially for Madara. Also I'm saying unless Sasuke is 10x or more stronger than Itachi, Itachi's Armored Susanoo would be stronger than his Ribcage Susanoo.

This all doesn't matter at all tbh.
Sasuke's Susano'o has High 7-A durability because it took an attack from V1 Ay. Itachi has no such feats on that level or above (without the Kirin calc or Bijū scaling), which means that it doesn't matter what the difference between the ribcage and the armored Susano'o is. Itachi is simply lacking in feats. No amount of scaling chain will move him from mid-end 7-B to High 7-A.

Itachi can hit him while Obito's trying to touch him.

Only if he's as fast or faster, which he lacks the feats for while sick seeing as how he's slower than Sasuke. Meanwhile Obito can easily react to the Raikage and even Minato to a lesser extent.

His arm trembled.

I'm not seeing it, only Suigetsu is trembling heavily. Like, I don't see how this is anything but casual. Bee easily caught his sword swing, dropped some rap lines on him, then just as easily tossed his sword away. He then fodderized Juugo, Suigetsu's equal, and proceeded to overpower Sasuke and no-sold a kick from him.

Sure but still.

I low-key forgot why we're even arguing about Obito lol.

Casually blocking Suigetsu is a better physical feat than what non Susanoo Sqsuke has shown.

Uhhh, sure? Wouldn't really apply to FKS Sasuke since he's stronger than Suigetsu though.
And even if Obito is stronger than Sasuke physically, I'm not sure how that scales to sick Itachi in any way.

I mean he definitely did train to an extent. He went from maybe Shisui+ level to stronger than EMS Sasuke.

No, he's not stronger than EMS Sasuke. Sasuke is confirmed to have surpassed him.
And this only applies to Edo Itachi anyway, not alive Itachi.

He was coughing up blood so idk about unharmed.

Sure, but he still didn't suffer nearly as much damage as he would've with a direct blow. Unless you think Sasuke has Bijū level physicals.

It was actually 9.

This is Kurama himself. The chakra he absorbed had 6 tails.

 

[Nierre]

What else needs to be talked about?

 

[PrinceofPein]

This is actually very, very, VERY untrue, but we’ll get to that during the Bijuu revisions.

Nearly as strong is right as stated by tobirama
And considering madara got an upgrade (Rinnegan and hashi cells) id say he is on par of not above his prime self

 

[Theendzero13]

This is actually very, very, VERY untrue, but we’ll get to that during the Bijuu revisions.

When will it happen?

 

[Theendzero13]

Nearly as strong is right as stated by tobirama
And considering madara got an upgrade (Rinnegan and hashi cells) id say he is on par of not above his prime self

Agree, edo madara is above valley of the end madara