See, we told you we were working on it! (Naruto Revision Part 1: Scaling)

[UchihaSlayer96]

When will it happen?

Way later down the line.

 

[Theendzero13]

Way later down the line.

((Translation: one piece will end before it))
Anyway jokes aside thanks for the awnser

 

[LordTracer]

Nearly as strong is right as stated by tobirama
And considering madara got an upgrade (Rinnegan and hashi cells) id say he is on par of not above his prime self

I feel like you didn’t read properly
I said it’s untrue FOR MADARA. And no, he’s not on par and he’s definitely not above (Madara himself basically said as much). But again, that’s for Bijuu revisions.

 

[Theendzero13]

I feel like you didn’t read properly
I said it’s untrue FOR MADARA. And no, he’s not on par and he’s definitely not above (Madara himself basically said as much). But again, that’s for Bijuu revisions.

Madara could have been refering for his alive version with the rinnegand and hashirama cells, but whatever i do not think this is the place to discuss this

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Madara could have been refering for his alive version with the rinnegand and hashirama cells, but whatever i do not think this is the place to discuss this

For some reason, I'm having a hard time believing that.

 

[Theendzero13]

For some reason, I'm having a hard time believing that.

Hmmmm , i still have things to say but thatnis not the time, or place

 

[RanaProGamer]

Btw, would it be fair to use a 3x multiplier for each of Naruto's KN forms? Since Naruto gave each Shinobi KN0 and it was stated by Kakashi to be a 3x amp.

 

[LordTracer]

I would rather we not, especially because the shinobi alliance cloaks are really, really, really weird, especially when it comes to scaling.

 

[RanaProGamer]

I would rather we not, especially because the shinobi alliance cloaks are really, really, really weird, especially when it comes to scaling.

How weird are we talking here?

 

[LordTracer]

How weird are we talking here?

Weird to the point that they sometimes have better feats than Kurama himself.

Slayer and I intend to take an in-depth look at them for the Bijuu scaling thread.

 

[RanaProGamer]

Weird to the point that they sometimes have better feats than Kurama himself.

Slayer and I intend to take an in-depth look at them for the Bijuu scaling thread.

Ah ok, then we can leave it at that for this thread.

 

[BlastX]

We should make a drinking game for how many times people bring up something that's meant for the bijuu thread.

 

[Theendzero13]

We should make a drinking game for how many times people bring up something that's meant for the bijuu thread.

I did , now i gota do community work((stupid traficc laws))

 

[LordTracer]

We should make a drinking game for how many times people bring up something that's meant for the bijuu thread.

We’d all end up in the hospital lmao

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

You guys shouldn't get your hopes up for any Bijū related multipliers. They simply do not work, ever.

 

[Galvino]

Which version of Sasuke would yall say is equal or comparable to the Raikage?

 

[Theendzero13]

Which version of Sasuke would yall say is equal or comparable to the Raikage?

The fourth ? Five kage summit

 

[MinatoSparkle]

This is actually very, very, VERY untrue, but we’ll get to that during the Bijuu revisions.

Ok..?

Which is irrelevant when we know he was holding back with his hax more so than his physicals. There is zero indication that he was holding back physically.

This all doesn't matter at all tbh.
Sasuke's Susano'o has High 7-A durability because it took an attack from V1 Ay. Itachi has no such feats on that level or above (without the Kirin calc or Bijū scaling), which means that it doesn't matter what the difference between the ribcage and the armored Susano'o is. Itachi is simply lacking in feats. No amount of scaling chain will move him from mid-end 7-B to High 7-A.

Only if he's as fast or faster, which he lacks the feats for while sick seeing as how he's slower than Sasuke. Meanwhile Obito can easily react to the Raikage and even Minato to a lesser extent.

I'm not seeing it, only Suigetsu is trembling heavily. Like, I don't see how this is anything but casual. Bee easily caught his sword swing, dropped some rap lines on him, then just as easily tossed his sword away. He then fodderized Juugo, Suigetsu's equal, and proceeded to overpower Sasuke and no-sold a kick from him.

I low-key forgot why we're even arguing about Obito lol.

Uhhh, sure? Wouldn't really apply to FKS Sasuke since he's stronger than Suigetsu though.
And even if Obito is stronger than Sasuke physically, I'm not sure how that scales to sick Itachi in any way.

No, he's not stronger than EMS Sasuke. Sasuke is confirmed to have surpassed him.
And this only applies to Edo Itachi anyway, not alive Itachi.

Sure, but he still didn't suffer nearly as much damage as he would've with a direct blow. Unless you think Sasuke has Bijū level physicals.

This is Kurama himself. The chakra he absorbed had 6 tails.

Ehhhh, I mean you're right but I don't think it can be proven either way. And this statement actually implies Alive Itachi was stronger than FKS Sasuke.

If Sasuke only surpassed Itachi with the EMS, that'd mean even Danzo fight MS Sasuke was weaker, let alone RS Sasuke.

Itachi never showed being slower than Sasuke, just possibly weaker. Also Itachi again has statements putting him at or above Obito's level, implying his speed is enough to tag Obito.

It is here underneath his right arm.

I believe I'm saying Sick Itachi>OM Obito>FKS Sasuke.

Sasuke's physicals are above Suigetsu, but by an unquantifiable amount.

Yeah, I'm saying that sickness aside Itachi was stronger than EMS Sasuke.

Idk what Sasuke's physicals are tbh, but prolly not Bijuu level.

I'm talking about this. Some of them are hard to see but there are 9 tails here.

Which version of Sasuke would yall say is equal or comparable to the Raikage?

I mean considering Sasuke was getting beaten up and perception blitzed and Ay only got harmed because he was reckless, I'd say either Danzo Fight Sasuke with the Susanoo Arrow (which are a blitz tier above the user in speed) or Early EMS Sasuke.

 

[The_Alxhemist]

How weird are we talking here?

Hinata being able to push back Juubi's tail attack with a simple gentle fist.

That pretty much says it all. 3x Hinata being that strong looks weird and wrong

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Spoiler: My 9 billion IQ debunks to the profiles

Alright, I've finally went through all the profiles and here are my (within Tier 7) disagreements.

Naruto
Naruto did technically trade blows with Kabuto, but Kabuto was clearly very casual and not going all out.

The Rasenshuriken rivalling Minato may or may not be true (depending on whether you use Kakuzu>Bijuu level scaling which I personally disagree with), but what I do know is that Minato isn't 7-B, so if it's treated as such, it is incorrect. Elaboration will come later.

Naruto surpassing Minato in the Pain Arc was also almost certainly retconned. Comparisons to Minato kept happening throughout the story, and even if you say they're only speed comparisons, those comparisons still show the retcons made to Minato, as at first, initial KCM Naruto was compared to Minato.

This Naruto was comparable if not slower than V1 Ay, then he got faster and blitzed V2 Ay, and Minato was again compared to him.

Then, Kakashi saw KCM2 Naruto's speed (with the MS active mind you) and mistook Naruto for Minato right after Guy commented on Naruto's speed, strongly implying Kakashi's reason for mistaking him was his speed.

So one statement isn't really enough to put SM Naruto above Minato as he's one of the characters most prone to retcons in the story. I'll talk more about why Minato should be higher than 7-B later.

I'm confused about why 2.4 Gigatons isn't considered High 7-A+, since High 7-A is from 1 gigaton to 4.3 gigatons, meaning the halfway point should be 2.15 gigatons no?

It says Pain's Shinra Tensei made him groan in pain, but I don't see it.

Since KCM Naruto significantly upscales from SM Naruto and likely 6T Naruto, he could very well be High 7-A+, so I think At least High 7-A would be appropriate.

Sasuke
To be fair, Sasuke only clashed with Poisoned Naruto. The side effects only took visible effect after the battle, but they could've very well been hampering him subtly the whole time.

Techniques doesn't just refer to ninjutsu. It's also talking about taijutsu and genjutsu.

Only Post-Kabuto fight EMS Sasuke is comparable to MKCM Naruto, not necessarily from the beginning.

Sasuke didn't tank Kakashi's hits with NO damage. Especially in the second example, it's pretty clear Sasuke's face is somewhat pained. Plus, the fact that he was getting knocked around shows that Kakashi's power was relevant to him to at least some extent.

I don't think V1 Ay has direct scaling to put him at or above KN6 Naruto level, so not sure Sasuke's durability with the Ribcage is necessarily High 7-A. I guess you could say he damaged KCM Naruto, but WA Ay seemed to have gotten stronger since he was faster than KCM Naruto at first, and 3T Sasuke basically blitzed him. So unless 3T FKS Sasuke>>KCM Naruto which I don't think is at all narratively implied, I believe Ay just power cliffed.

Sakura
The Naruto that was scared of Sakura was Base Naruto, who's only 7-B. And if it's referring to max Naruto, that would make Sakura have High 6-C AP, which I don't think ppl are gonna accept anytime soon.

…I would go into Tier 5 scaling but we're not even in Tier 6 yet lol.

Kakashi
I don't think having all of Part 1 and Pre-WA Kakashi in the same tier is really indicative of Kakashi's level throughout the series. Put P1 Kakashi against PA/FKS Kakashi and the latter would win in moments. Especially because Kamui is only a part of his P2 arsenal yet his P1 key has it now. Also Kakashi's PA Raikiri may be High 7-A since the Asura Path is the 1st or 2nd most durable path and the weaker Paths caught hits from SM Jiraiya.

WA Kakashi should be High 7-A+ since he did better than KCM Naruto

Kakashi's statement about Naruto's strength is most likely referring to KCM2 Naruto, considering Kakashi's superior feats.

Wait isn't Obito's durability 6-C?

Why doesn't it say At least High 7-A+?

Boruto Era Kakashi does have some possible scaling to 5-C, but that's not for now.

Yamato
Guruguru Yamato is ABSOLUTELY at least High 7-A+. It was able to beat the whole alliance including those like WA Sakura, the Gokage, Darui, Mifune, etc.

And no, they weren't fatigued like this the whole time. Ohnoki stated them fighting Guruguru Yamato is what drained them to such an extent.

Edo Hiruzen countering him isn't an anti-feat, I'll explain later.

A lot of the following profiles for more side characters don't have any justification for some of the ratings, even some simple sentence would be good.

Shino
I'm not sure that beetle eating Juubi clone thing is really an AP feat so much as hax, since the insides of creatures aren't as strong as the outside. It's like what was said about the gentle fist's effectiveness. No matter what you do you can't train your internal organs.

Shikamaru
I wouldn't say the wound he gave Hidan was shallow. It cut through like half his neck.

Ino
The link to Ino fighting Sai should probably be included.

Choji
He didn't actually hit the hearts.

I don't know if Butterfly Mode is only 100x with the pullet or not.

Might Guy
Should be High 7-A+ for the same reasons as with Kakashi.

Guy actually destroyed the Susanoo.

Madara's constriction being weak could only be because he was damaged or possibly destroyed, and we didn't see Madara again until the end of the chapter, and with scratches on him, further proving the Hirudora completely demolished his Susanoo and damaged him.

Rock Lee
Why is Lee Mountain level with the 6th Gate in the New Era?

Maybe have more links to examples where it says stuff like Team 7 fought and harmed Deepa/Boro/Ao.

Hashirama
I think a link to the Wood Golem being comparable to Kurama should be in the AP section first rather than the striking strength section.

SM Hashirama should definitely be "At least Large Mountain level+." Cause SM Hashirama>>Base Hashirama>>Tobirama>>EMS Sasuke=Baseline High 7-A+.

I don't think Kid Hashirama and Madara battles are good examples of their strength as adults.

Tobirama
I again think At least is appropriate for the reasons I described above. Also, I'm not sure it can really be proven Madara was "forced" to dodge and block Tobirama. Because he implied that he'd be more careful after being smacked around by the Bijuu, so this could just be an extension of that. It's very possible that if Madara stood there and took it the kunai would've broke upon contact with his skin or only sunk in a little similar to Sasuke's Chidori against Ay.

Hiruzen
The strongest of the Five Kage statement is referring to the Part 1 Gokage, as Kabuto's statement is about Old Hiruzen. After all, the context of the scene is that Orochimaru took on Old Hiruzen knowing he was the strongest of the Five Kage. After all, they definitely weren't referring to Hiruzen's prime, as Orochimaru knows he can't take on Prime Hiruzen and hope to win. The only thing he knew was that he was the strongest Kage at that point, and that level was fine for him. Also, why is the statement about Young Hiruzen surpassing Tobirama removed? That should definitely make Prime and Edo Hiruzen High 7-A+, along with him stalemating the Guruguru Yamato statue.

Imma send the rest in another message cause there's literally too many images for one post lol.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Spoiler: The rest of my A+ Dissertation

Do I feel a disturbance in the force?...Wait, it's not the force. It's the barriers of time and space itself. Which means...

THE ************' YELLOW FLASH
It's time for the moment you've all been waiting for. Minato wank train, all abooooooard!

I agree with Minato>Younger Hiruzen, I just wanna add another bit of evidence to it.

Jonin Minato beat Younger Hiruzen in Storm Generations whose story content is considered canon.

I've already talked about why Base Naruto>Base Minato and SM Naruto>SM Minato is heavily flawed, but in addition to what I've already said, Minato doesn't use SM in real combat, so it doesn't make sense for the statement to refer to that version of him.

Plus it's most likely that Minato having SM is a retcon, given that far later than the Fukasaku statement, Minato commented on Naruto's mastery of SM as similar to Jiraiya's as if it was something he didn't have.

As for actual feats, Minato with one arm (which would debuff stats cause he'd lose the chakra of an arm, and chakra=AP) and nerfed by Edo Tensei along with Kakashi fought Black Zetsu enhanced Rinnegan Obito who even without Zetsu is considered High 7-A+

And given that all members were panting, it's safe to assume the battle was pretty even. Yeah Minato doesn't scale directly since he had help, but given that he was debuffed twice over, he should downscale only slightly from BZ Obito, but since BZ Obito is significantly superior to Rinnegan Obito (even an amp from a lesser Zetsu made Obito able to fodderize dozens of Anbu and brought Yamato from High Jonin level to Shinobi Alliance Fodderizing level), this shouldn't bring Minato down to Base High 7-A.

Then there's this. I've read the argument against this scaling to AP, but I strongly disagree with it. For it contradicting other statements, the retcon argument still works. And for it only referring to speed, Ay wouldn't think Minato couldn't ever be surpassed if Minato was unable to even DAMAGE him, which he wouldn't be able to if he was merely 7-B (there's more than a 70x AP difference between Minato and the Fourth Raikage atm, which is a big nope, and that's only between Minato and VERSION 1 AY, let alone V2). Plus Ay doesn't just say Minato is stronger than him, he says Minato is the strongest there has ever been as far as he knows, which would include the likes of V2 Bee, V2 Yuugito, V1 Third Raikage, Ohnoki, MS Sasuke with the Skeletal Susanoo, what he's seen of OM Obito, etc. Plus other Bijuu level characters but I can't use them so this should be enough for now.

This is supported by Perfect Jinchuriki Killer Bee (who is High 7-A+ in V2) trembling at the mere THOUGHT of Minato.

I have arguments against this (not for Ay and Bee, but in Minato's favor), but it was stated Jonin Minato and Ay/Bee's forces were mutually recognized, implying equality.

And Minato was able to slice a Partial Transformation tail of Gyuki

Now you can argue all you want about whether or not this tail is as strong as the real thing, but considering it's a more fully evolved version of Gyuki's tail than the V2 tail, it should certainly scale at least above Bee's V2 durability which is High 7-A+.

Oh, and by the way, all of these feats except the BZ Obito one are in reference to Jonin Minato, and Minato almost certainly got stronger as a Hokage.

So yeah, Minato being 7-B and being weaker than Base Naruto is very much cap. Like bruh, he's arguably as strong as KCM2 Naruto.

Also this isn't related to him being upgraded, but Jiraiya's comments about him prolly should be added to his profile.

Danzo
Why is FKS Sasuke called Taka Sasuke? I know that's "technically" his title, but everyone knows him as Five Kage Summit Sasuke.

Why does the Susanoo scale to High 7-A?

Jiraiya
Wait why he is weaker than Orochimaru and Tsunade? That was never stated, they've been consistently implied as equals.

The other examples showing the Sannin's comparability that I gave earlier can be listed here too.

Madara
Although EMS Madara is stronger, it doesn't say anything about him being FAR stronger. Also here's more evidence for EMS Madara>Edo Madara to add to the profiles.

Also Madara is most likely comparable to SM Hashirama as they clashed in cqc after their constructs were done.

Itachi
I'm pretty sure his fight with Kisame was all a genjutsu. I'd also use the EMS Sasuke surpassing Itachi statement and thus meaning Itachi>FKS Sasuke to prove his Susanoo is At least High 7-A considering Sasuke's is supposedly considered as such.

Shisui
I don't think saying the Itachi that fought Orochimaru shouldn't be that much stronger makes much sense, considering the massive hatred amps he got from seeing Shisui die and having to kill his whole clan. But scaling to Danzo is fine I suppose. Although idk why the Generations version is used and not the novel.

Obito
There are multiple statements about Naruto only being able to beat Obito if he mastered Kurama's power.

This could either mean KCM1 or KCM2, but either way it would make Obito scale above SM Naruto, who's High 7-A (and this would also upscale Minato who beat Obito just as a side note hehe). This is likely referring to both YM and OM Obito so the unknown for YM should be removed and replaced with High 7-A or High 7-A+.

Rasa
Uh...it says his striking strength is "Uknown," should prolly fix that typo

Gaara
It says Gaara blocked V2 Ay's Gullotine Drop for his Great War key, when that happened in the FKS.

Chiyo
Her fighting with a KCM Naruto clone alongside Edo Kimimaro and apparently beating or at least outlasting him should make her possibly High 7-A in her prime.

Although this is more solid for Kimimaro since Chiyo didn't have her puppets at this point making her nerfed. The same applies to those who scale to Prime Chiyo or Prime Kimimaro although I won't list them all now cause I'm too lazy and tired.

Fourth Raikage
Him breaking a Guruguru Yamato hand doesn't disprove High 7-A+ Yamato, it just upscales Ay. Plus, Ay had fought Madara and recovered from his wounds, so he could've just gotten stronger due to battle which is stated to be the fastest way to get stronger.

I don't know if Ay had Ohnoki's enhancement when he caught Madara's Susanoo hand, since Ohnoki wasn't on him. And if he was made too light permanently, he wouldn't have really been able to damage them, while if Ohnoki made him too heavy then left he wouldn't have his best tool, speed. That's why Ohnoki's ability on Ay is only really effective when they're in contact.

Darui
Why aren't his feats against Kinkaku and Ginkaku here? Also Raikage Darui being 7-B is gonna be a big nope from me.

Killer Bee
The Double Lariat itself isn't what harmed Bee, it's Ay squashing his face afterwards. Also I don't think him being above the other V2 Jinchuriki should scale to the Edo Jinchuriki as they were amped by Obito. It's like saying Yahiko was as strong as the Deva Path in life.

Idk why Partial Transformation is being considered weaker than V1 and V2. Seems like a government conspiracy to debunk Minato being strong, hmmmmmmm...

Yuugito
She did fend off Hidan and Kakuzu for a while. Also she would scale to Matatabi in BM.

Muu
Shouldn't his Durability scale to his AP? Also he technically took Naruto's Planetary Rasengan even though it ****** him up real bad. It didn't COMPLETELY drill a hole through him, so you say it's a slight durability feat.

Ohnoki
His durability should be 6-C+ to High 6-C since he survived two Tengai Shinseis falling on top of him simultaneously. And his ninjutsu at full power should be Island level too since he contributed to stopping it, and Gaara should likely scale to half of that as well. I know this place isn't for Tier 6 scaling but usually Tier 7 profiles I've seen mention Tier 6 feats so it's weird.

Karin
Her chains should be High 7-A+

Suigetsu
Prolly more feats should be added, like him being able to briefly tango with Bee and Ay and Darui. And I'm not sure his WA self should be High 7-A+ since Guruguru's strength is only definitely High 7-A+ with the statue.

Jugo
Even if only briefly, he DID hold back a bloodlusted punch from V1 Ay. Even if it doesn't upgrade him to High 7-A, it should at least be mentioned.

Pain
I feel like some of the reason why he seems more impressive later in the fight is having access to Shinra Tensei and Bansho Tenin, not just pure physicals, but whatever.

Sasori
In durability it says he withstood a direct punch from her, but it's not clear her is referring to Sakura since that was the first entry in his durability section. Also Sasori scales to the Third Kazekage cause this databook statement proves they legitimately fought.

Zetsu
LMAO I can't believe you're making my Minato wank arguments for me ppl. 5-C Minato...what a world that would be (lowkey though SM Minato tanking Juubidara's kick proves it) . Although just cause I'm so honest I do have to admit the one who largely had Six Paths level feats was the one who stole a small amount of Six Paths chakra from Madara. Although even so, take away their amps and take away a larger amount from Madara, that makes normal BZ Obito at least relative to Rinnegan SM Madara so I'll take that as a win still.

I'm sorry to whoever reads and responds to all of this, I tried being as concise as possible

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Uhhhhhh...............**** me lol.

I was about to sleep, so definitely won't get to this now, but I'll reply to everything later today....

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Is Minato wank Naruto’s version of Bleach’s Ulquiorra wank?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Uhhhhhh...............**** me lol.

I was about to sleep, so definitely won't get to this now, but I'll reply to everything later today....

Fair enough lol, I was supposed to sleep more than an hour ago, but eh scaling's more important than school and health.

Is Minato wank Naruto’s version of Bleach’s Ulquiorra wank?

Idk, I feel like I see Founders and Obito and Pain and Shisui wank more than I do for Minato. It's kinda just me that's bringing it to such high levels tbh. Minato's honestly underrated more than overrated most of the time.

 

[LordTracer]

Naruto did technically trade blows with Kabuto, but Kabuto was clearly very casual and not going all out.

Does it matter? It’s literally just supplementing Naruto being stronger than he was in his first key.

Naruto surpassing Minato in the Pain Arc was also almost certainly retconned.

Hard disagree, this is essentially headcanon. Every statement you just gave is in relation to speed, you can’t extrapolate those to AP as well.

I'm confused about why 2.4 Gigatons isn't considered High 7-A+, since High 7-A is from 1 gigaton to 4.3 gigatons, meaning the halfway point should be 2.15 gigatons no?

That’s not how + ratings work. + ratings are the average of the low-end and high-end of a tier. As such, High 7-A+ begins at 2.65 gigatons.

Since KCM Naruto significantly upscales from SM Naruto and likely 6T Naruto, he could very well be High 7-A+, so I think At least High 7-A would be appropriate.

You don’t put an At least if you’re later upscaling to a + rating, that just looks gross.

To be fair, Sasuke only clashed with Poisoned Naruto. The side effects only took visible effect after the battle, but they could've very well been hampering him subtly the whole time.

That’s your headcanon, and the effects are not shown to be affecting Naruto until afterwards, so we can’t say for sure that they were affecting him during the clash.

Techniques doesn't just refer to ninjutsu. It's also talking about taijutsu and genjutsu.

I have no idea what you’re referring to here, honestly.

Only Post-Kabuto fight EMS Sasuke is comparable to MKCM Naruto, not necessarily from the beginning.

And your proof that he got stronger is…?

Sasuke didn't tank Kakashi's hits with NO damage. Especially in the second example, it's pretty clear Sasuke's face is somewhat pained. Plus, the fact that he was getting knocked around shows that Kakashi's power was relevant to him to at least some extent.

Yeah, no. I don’t know where you’re getting him being pained from, he’s literally smirking when he lands after that hit from MS Kakashi and looks no worse than he did before being hit (485). Kakashi isn’t relative to him at all. At BEST, Kakashi could get a “higher with Mangekyō Sharingan (Could send Sasuke flying but didn’t really cause damage to him)”

I don't think V1 Ay has direct scaling to put him at or above KN6 Naruto level, so not sure Sasuke's durability with the Ribcage is necessarily High 7-A. I guess you could say he damaged KCM Naruto, but WA Ay seemed to have gotten stronger since he was faster than KCM Naruto at first, and 3T Sasuke basically blitzed him. So unless 3T FKS Sasuke>>KCM Naruto which I don't think is at all narratively implied, I believe Ay just power cliffed.

Sasuke did not blitz A, that’s complete nonsense, and there’s no evidence suggesting that A got stronger before the War Arc.

I don't think having all of Part 1 and Pre-WA Kakashi in the same tier is really indicative of Kakashi's level throughout the series. Put P1 Kakashi against PA/FKS Kakashi and the latter would win in moments. Especially because Kamui is only a part of his P2 arsenal yet his P1 key has it now. Also Kakashi's PA Raikiri may be High 7-A since the Asura Path is the 1st or 2nd most durable path and the weaker Paths caught hits from SM Jiraiya.

Did you just not see the part of Pain’s AP that says he Varies? He is not always High 7-A, and he definitely wasn’t against Kakashi.

Wait isn't Obito's durability 6-C?

Context?

Why doesn't it say At least High 7-A+?

Slayer and I agreed to leave “At least” off of all High 7-A+ characters because their ratings might change during the Bijuu scaling later.

Guruguru Yamato is ABSOLUTELY at least High 7-A+. It was able to beat the whole alliance including those like WA Sakura, the Gokage, Darui, Mifune, etc.

A was punching through Guruguru’s Buddha Statue in BASE, and Guruguru fighting the alliance was almost entirely off-screen. We can’t scale based on something we literally didn’t see.

And no, they weren't fatigued like this the whole time. Ohnoki stated them fighting Guruguru Yamato is what drained them to such an extent.

Did you just… not read the rest of Ōnoki’s statement? Literally two sentences later, he says “I guess we’ll have to leave Madara to Naruto,” making it clear that he was referring to Madara, not Guruguru.

The link to Ino fighting Sai should probably be included.

Read the part in the OP where it says Boruto scaling is literally just ripped from the current profiles.

He didn't actually hit the hearts.

Literally in the next page, Kakuzu says “Two of my hearts gone.”

Why is Lee Mountain level with the 6th Gate in the New Era?

Upscaling from his City level+ calc in The Last.

Maybe have more links to examples where it says stuff like Team 7 fought and harmed Deepa/Boro/Ao.

Read the part in the OP where it says Boruto scaling is literally just ripped from the current profiles.

I think a link to the Wood Golem being comparable to Kurama should be in the AP section first rather than the striking strength section.

Once again, read the part of the OP that says Tier 6 stuff was not messed with at all.

Also, I'm not sure it can really be proven Madara was "forced" to dodge and block Tobirama. Because he implied that he'd be more careful after being smacked around by the Bijuu, so this could just be an extension of that. It's very possible that if Madara stood there and took it the kunai would've broke upon contact with his skin or only sunk in a little similar to Sasuke's Chidori against Ay.

Do you have any proof to suggest these? Because otherwise, it’s just headcanon.

The strongest of the Five Kage statement is referring to the Part 1 Gokage, as Kabuto's statement is about Old Hiruzen. After all, the context of the scene is that Orochimaru took on Old Hiruzen knowing he was the strongest of the Five Kage. After all, they definitely weren't referring to Hiruzen's prime, as Orochimaru knows he can't take on Prime Hiruzen and hope to win. The only thing he knew was that he was the strongest Kage at that point, and that level was fine for him. Also, why is the statement about Young Hiruzen surpassing Tobirama removed? That should definitely make Prime and Edo Hiruzen High 7-A+, along with him stalemating the Guruguru Yamato statue.

I’ll let Slayer and Damage handle this one. Also the statement of him “surpassing” Tobirama is NOT AP. It literally says Hiruzen surpassed him in talent.

Not to be rude, but I feel like a lot of these “issues” are just the result of not reading the manga or what the sandboxes say closely enough.

Also I’m going to bed after this, it’s basically midnight over here.

 

[LordTracer]

Is Minato wank Naruto’s version of Bleach’s Ulquiorra wank?

No, it’s far, far, faaaaaaaar worse.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Spoiler: NOT GONNA BE FUN

This is gonna suck.....

Do I feel a disturbance in the force?...Wait, it's not the force. It's the barriers of time and space itself. Which means...

THE ************' YELLOW FLASH
It's time for the moment you've all been waiting for. Minato wank train, all abooooooard!

Train's about to crash

I agree with Minato>Younger Hiruzen, I just wanna add another bit of evidence to it.

Jonin Minato beat Younger Hiruzen in Storm Generations whose story content is considered canon.

Y'know, this is nice actually. Thanks, I'll probably add it.

I've already talked about why Base Naruto>Base Minato and SM Naruto>SM Minato is heavily flawed, but in addition to what I've already said, Minato doesn't use SM in real combat, so it doesn't make sense for the statement to refer to that version of him.

The Fukasaku statement could be interpreted as "SM Naruto > Base Minato" or "SM Naruto > SM Minato", and both interpretations would not fit with how highly you're trying to scale Minato; however, both would fit with him being < Naruto in both base and SM.
If that statement existed in a vacuum, I'd agree with you to an extent (though he still would be High 7-A at most, not HIgh 7-A+ or higher lol), but the fact that we also have a statement stating that Naruto's FRS rivaled or surpassed Minato in power just makes all the evidence point in this direction quite heavily.

Plus it's most likely that Minato having SM is a retcon, given that far later than the Fukasaku statement, Minato commented on Naruto's mastery of SM as similar to Jiraiya's as if it was something he didn't have.

Whether it was a retcon or not doesn't change what I said above. Besides, it's not something we can prove regardless.

As for actual feats, Minato with one arm (which would debuff stats cause he'd lose the chakra of an arm, and chakra=AP) and nerfed by Edo Tensei along with Kakashi fought Black Zetsu enhanced Rinnegan Obito who even without Zetsu is considered High 7-A+

And given that all members were panting, it's safe to assume the battle was pretty even. Yeah Minato doesn't scale directly since he had help, but given that he was debuffed twice over, he should downscale only slightly from BZ Obito, but since BZ Obito is significantly superior to Rinnegan Obito (even an amp from a lesser Zetsu made Obito able to fodderize dozens of Anbu and brought Yamato from High Jonin level to Shinobi Alliance Fodderizing level), this shouldn't bring Minato down to Base High 7-A.

No, absolutely not. This version of Obito is literally dying. There's absolutely no reason for him to scale above his full power self pre-Juubi. BZ is also quite featless on his own. He survived an attack from Mei iirc, but like, she has 7-B physical AP, so....
Also Kakashi himself was quite exhausted here anyway, so this whole sequence is honestly pretty meaningless.

Then there's this. I've read the argument against this scaling to AP, but I strongly disagree with it. For it contradicting other statements, the retcon argument still works. And for it only referring to speed, Ay wouldn't think Minato couldn't ever be surpassed if Minato was unable to even DAMAGE him, which he wouldn't be able to if he was merely 7-B (there's more than a 70x AP difference between Minato and the Fourth Raikage atm, which is a big nope, and that's only between Minato and VERSION 1 AY, let alone V2). Plus Ay doesn't just say Minato is stronger than him, he says Minato is the strongest there has ever been as far as he knows, which would include the likes of V2 Bee, V2 Yuugito, V1 Third Raikage, Ohnoki, MS Sasuke with the Skeletal Susanoo, what he's seen of OM Obito, etc. Plus other Bijuu level characters but I can't use them so this should be enough for now.

Bruh, please use the official translation lol. It says "A noble man. A finer Shinobi never lived", which is definitely wrong if we take it as an AP comparison COUGH Madara and Hashirama COUGH. A more realistic interpretation is that he's praising his character and skill. Not to mention, again, he was previously praising his speed in the last sentence lol, so yeah. No AP here, and the fact that Minato has exactly ZERO on-screen showings at this level isn't helping his case.

This is supported by Perfect Jinchuriki Killer Bee (who is High 7-A+ in V2) trembling at the mere THOUGHT of Minato.

Here's the full context. Bee's not trembling in fear, it's clearly out of excitement, given that.......y'know, he literally starts rapping lol. He was excited to discover that the Rasengan was a Jutsu made by Minato modeled after the BB.

I have arguments against this (not for Ay and Bee, but in Minato's favor), but it was stated Jonin Minato and Ay/Bee's forces were mutually recognized, implying equality.

No lol, it does not imply equality, it implies exactly what it say, which is that they are both highly regarded Shinobi who had mutual respect for each other.

And Minato was able to slice a Partial Transformation tail of Gyuki

Now you can argue all you want about whether or not this tail is as strong as the real thing, but considering it's a more fully evolved version of the V2 tail, it should certainly scale at least above Bee's V2 durability which is High 7-A+.

Once again, this is irrelevant for a couple of reasons.
#1. This was a much younger Bee, we can't scale him to current B, especially when B is only High 7-A (without V1/2) in the War Arc.
#2. Partial Transformations are not stronger than V2 lol. That has never been implied, stated, or shown. V2 is literally Biju Mode compressed into a humanoid form, and we literally saw the Edo Jinchuriki go from PT to V2, implying that it's stronger, which would make sense since they were overwhelming KCM Naruto a bit more.

Oh, and by the way, all of these feats except the BZ Obito one are in reference to Jonin Minato, and Minato almost certainly got stronger as a Hokage.

Sure, but that's an unquantifiable strength increase, which wouldn't really mean much on its own.

So yeah, Minato being 7-B and being weaker than Base Naruto is very much cap. Like bruh, he's arguably as strong as KCM2 Naruto.

Hell no.

Also this isn't related to him being upgraded, but Jiraiya's comments about him prolly should be added to his profile.

They're nice, but they don't belong in the AP section. Maybe the intelligence section, if anything.

Danzo
Why is FKS Sasuke called Taka Sasuke? I know that's "technically" his title, but everyone knows him as Five Kage Summit Sasuke.

"Taka" encompasses the version as a whole, FKS does not. That's probably why.

Why does the Susanoo scale to High 7-A?

For tanking V1 A's Liger Bomb.

Jiraiya
Wait why he is weaker than Orochimaru and Tsunade? That was never stated, they've been consistently implied as equals.

The other examples showing the Sannin's comparability that I gave earlier can be listed here too.

Because he lost to Orochimaru when they were younger before Orochimaru left the village. Considering Orochimaru is far more obsessed with getting stronger and collecting Jutsu, I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that he's developed at least as much as Jiraiya. This would mean that Orochimaru would more than likely remain a little bit superior at least.
As for Tsunade, she is physically stronger than both as her profile makes clear.

Madara
Although EMS Madara is stronger, it doesn't say anything about him being FAR stronger. Also here's more evidence for EMS Madara>Edo Madara to add to the profiles.

He is far stronger. This'll be implemented in the Bijuu revisions, but here is the actual scaling chain:
EMS Madara >~ SM Madara > Blind Madara > Edo Madara.
If you're wondering why Blind Madara is superior to Edo Madara, it's because he casually broke out of the Deity Gates which were previously restraining him.
Thanks for the scan though, I'll probably use it as well.

Also Madara is most likely comparable to SM Hashirama as they clashed in cqc after their constructs were done.

This portion was off-screen. We don't know what happened after. Madara could've used Susano'o or Katon, or literally anything else. We simply do not know.
Also, it'd contradict them clashing equally in base multiple times if Madara was equal to Hashirama with a SM amp.

Itachi
I'm pretty sure his fight with Kisame was all a genjutsu. I'd also use the EMS Sasuke surpassing Itachi statement and thus meaning Itachi>FKS Sasuke to prove his Susanoo is At least High 7-A considering Sasuke's is supposedly considered as such.

No, sick Itachi is not stronger than any version of Sasuke beyond CS1.5 Sasuke. I'm sorry, but direct showings will always trump vague statements with various potential interpretations like the ones from Obito. As for the DB statement, it could easily be referring to Itachi at his peak. It would make no sense for it to refer to Itachi on his literal deathbed.

Shisui
I don't think saying the Itachi that fought Orochimaru shouldn't be that much stronger makes much sense, considering the massive hatred amps he got from seeing Shisui die and having to kill his whole clan. But scaling to Danzo is fine I suppose. Although idk why the Generations version is used and not the novel.

I don't have the novel quotes, if you can provide them, that would be appreciated.
As for Orochimaru, he was defeated by 3tomoe Itachi, not MS Itachi. How stronger did he get in base? We don't know, as such we can't assume that he got much stronger without reason. Also, I'm pretty sure there was a statement made by Itachi during the massacre about Shisui being stronger than him and being able to stop him, but I don't have the novel on me unfortunately.

Obito
There are multiple statements about Naruto only being able to beat Obito if he mastered Kurama's power.

This could either mean KCM1 or KCM2, but either way it would make Obito scale above SM Naruto, who's High 7-A (and this would also upscale Minato who beat Obito just as a side note hehe). This is likely referring to both YM and OM Obito so the unknown for YM should be removed and replaced with High 7-A or High 7-A+.

Absolutely not. These statements have no direct implications for AP. Obito has no AP feats against Minato. All we know is that he considers him dangerous, which could easily be due to his absurd abilities and intelligence.

Rasa
Uh...it says his striking strength is "Uknown," should prolly fix that typo

Done.

Gaara
It says Gaara blocked V2 Ay's Gullotine Drop for his Great War key, when that happened in the FKS.

It doesn't matter? The war happened days after the FKS, maybe weaks. There's no proof that Gaara got stronger later, so it's not worth making a separate key for.

Chiyo
Her fighting with a KCM Naruto clone alongside Edo Kimimaro and apparently beating or at least outlasting him should make her possibly High 7-A in her prime.

Although this is more solid for Kimimaro since Chiyo didn't have her puppets at this point making her nerfed. The same applies to those who scale to Prime Chiyo or Prime Kimimaro although I won't list them all now cause I'm too lazy and tired.

Hehehe, no. Part 1 characters like Kimimaro are not upscaling Sage Mode Naruto and KCM, forget it. This scan is pretty much meaningless because it's likely due to their Edo Immortality and regen that they survived this long. Plus, Chiyo was using the Samurai as meat shields, and Naruto wouldn't kill them in character.

Fourth Raikage
Him breaking a Guruguru Yamato hand doesn't disprove High 7-A+ Yamato, it just upscales Ay.

Uhhh, yeah it does. It would make base Ay stronger than his V1 Raiton Cloak self. Endless circular upscaling chains aren't that hard to come up with, but they are not good for scaling.

Plus, Ay had fought Madara and recovered from his wounds, so he could've just gotten stronger due to battle which is stated to be the fastest way to get stronger.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda. There's no proof that he got stronger, so I'll just ignore this.

I don't know if Ay had Ohnoki's enhancement when he caught Madara's Susanoo hand, since Ohnoki wasn't on him. And if he was made too light permanently, he wouldn't have really been able to damage them, while if Ohnoki made him too heavy then left he wouldn't have his best tool, speed. That's why Ohnoki's ability on Ay is only really effective when they're in contact.

Then the feat should be scrapped as an outlier because regular V2 A was unable to even scratch Madara's ribcage Susano'o. He has no business scaling to the Humanoid Susano'o.

Darui
Why aren't his feats against Kinkaku and Ginkaku here?

What feats?

Also Raikage Darui being 7-B is gonna be a big nope from me.

No offense, but I don't care lol. This thread isn't meant to go into Boruto scaling as the OP made abundantly clear.

Killer Bee
The Double Lariat itself isn't what harmed Bee, it's Ay squashing his face afterwards. Also I don't think him being above the other V2 Jinchuriki should scale to the Edo Jinchuriki as they were amped by Obito. It's like saying Yahiko was as strong as the Deva Path in life.

Hmmm, honestly, fair enough. Though this only shit on your Minato arguments further lol.

Idk why Partial Transformation is being considered weaker than V1 and V2. Seems like a government conspiracy to debunk Minato being strong, hmmmmmmm...

Because we need proof that it's stronger than Biju Mode compressed in humanoid form?

Yuugito
She did fend off Hidan and Kakuzu for a while.

Which we didn't see. All we saw was her running away and going into BM pretty quickly.

Also she would scale to Matatabi in BM.

She already does, no?

Muu
Shouldn't his Durability scale to his AP?

No, this isn't allowed on the wiki. Only striking strength can scale to durability due to Newton's 3rd Law, but not the other way around. The only way for that to happen is if a character was shown to be capable of harming themselves, or those that scale to him.

Also he technically took Naruto's Planetary Rasengan even though it ****** him up real bad. It didn't COMPLETELY drill a hole through him, so you say it's a slight durability feat.

No, we don't scale dura to feats like that.

Ohnoki
His durability should be 6-C+ to High 6-C since he survived two Tengai Shinseis falling on top of him simultaneously. And his ninjutsu at full power should be Island level too since he contributed to stopping it, and Gaara should likely scale to half of that as well. I know this place isn't for Tier 6 scaling but usually Tier 7 profiles I've seen mention Tier 6 feats so it's weird.

Him suriving Tengai Shinsei is not a 6-C+ feat lol. He doesn't scale to the meteors full yield due to surface area. I think the feat is tier 7 if calced. Him stopping it by making it lighter, over time mind you, is not an AP feat either, it's hax.

Karin
Her chains should be High 7-A+

Only if Guruguru ends up being High 7-A+.

Suigetsu
Prolly more feats should be added, like him being able to briefly tango with Bee and Ay and Darui. And I'm not sure his WA self should be High 7-A+ since Guruguru's strength is only definitely High 7-A+ with the statue.

He already scales to Darui, B is ehhh because he was pretty causal and definitely stronger, but he can downscale I guess. Ay is a big fat no.

Jugo
Even if only briefly, he DID hold back a bloodlusted punch from V1 Ay. Even if it doesn't upgrade him to High 7-A, it should at least be mentioned.

No, this wouldn't scale to him overall. It would only scale to his durability while he's amping it with extra shields, and even then it's iffy.

Pain
I feel like some of the reason why he seems more impressive later in the fight is having access to Shinra Tensei and Bansho Tenin, not just pure physicals, but whatever.

Whatever indeed.

Sasori
In durability it says he withstood a direct punch from her, but it's not clear her is referring to Sakura since that was the first entry in his durability section.

Fair enough, I fixed it.

Also Sasori scales to the Third Kazekage cause this databook statement proves they legitimately fought.

They fought, but it was off-screen like the Rasa example. We have no proof that Sasori overpowered the Iron Sand, he could've just gotten to him with Poison, or a miriad of other possible variables that may or may not have taken place. The 3rd Kazekage, like most other Kazekage, has Unknown physical capabilities after all.

Zetsu
LMAO I can't believe you're making my Minato wank arguments for me ppl. 5-C Minato...what a world that would be (lowkey though SM Minato tanking Juubidara's kick proves it) . Although just cause I'm so honest I do have to admit the one who largely had Six Paths level feats was the one who stole a small amount of Six Paths chakra from Madara. Although even so, take away their amps and take away a larger amount from Madara, that makes normal BZ Obito at least relative to Rinnegan SM Madara so I'll take that as a win still.

Uhh no, he's not relative to Rinnegan SM Madara lol. That's so random.

I'm sorry to whoever reads and responds to all of this, I tried being as concise as possible

Well, you bloody failed at that mate, didn't ya? Concise my ass lol

 

[RanaProGamer]

Chiyo
Her fighting with a KCM Naruto clone alongside Edo Kimimaro and apparently beating or at least outlasting him should make her possibly High 7-A in her prime.

Although this is more solid for Kimimaro since Chiyo didn't have her puppets at this point making her nerfed. The same applies to those who scale to Prime Chiyo or Prime Kimimaro although I won't list them all now cause I'm too lazy and tired.

Something to add to this:

Chiyo is stated to have fought Hanzo in the past. And Hanzo fought Mifune and the Sannin in the past. So possible upgrade for Sasori?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

So possible upgrade for Sasori?

No lol.


Anyway, I'm out for now. I need to rest XD

 

[Tetsucabrah]

Finally Kakuzu and Sasori are out of 7-C limbo and no longer weaker than CS2 kid Sasuke, that was wack

 

[LordTracer]

Oh lord not the KCM level Chiyo and Kimimaro nonsense

Slayer already took care of most of that, so I’ll just make something clear for everyone here: off-screen fights DO NOT qualify as proper scaling. If we don’t, y’know, see what happened, we can’t make claims that the characters fighting are relative or anything like that.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

Shouldn't Pain be 6-C with ST as well? It oneshotted Gamabunta and the other 2 giant toads that seemed somewhat relative to him.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

nvm just noticed the thing about 6-Cs in the OP

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

The strongest of the Five Kage statement is referring to the Part 1 Gokage, as Kabuto's statement is about Old Hiruzen. After all, the context of the scene is that Orochimaru took on Old Hiruzen knowing he was the strongest of the Five Kage. After all, they definitely weren't referring to Hiruzen's prime, as Orochimaru knows he can't take on Prime Hiruzen and hope to win. The only thing he knew was that he was the strongest Kage at that point, and that level was fine for him.

Uhhh, yeah no. If you read the statement carefully, you'll notice that Kabuto's exact words were "After all, we did take on the Hokage fully knowing his reputation as the strongest leader of the five principle territories." Keyword being "reputation".
Do you honestly think that Hiruzen built a reputation of being the strongest Kage while sitting on a desk for 12+ years? In a time of peace no less? This reputation could've only been built during times of war; y'know, the only possible times where Hiruzen could've even battled or been compared to other Kage on the battlefield in the first place.
Then there's the fact that nobody was aware of how much Hiruzen's age had weakened him physically, not even Orochimaru or Kabuto did. This is probably why he came with Edo Hokage prepared in tow. He didn't even have to directly fight Hiruzen for the most part, and didn't even use his strongest Snake summons against him.

Also, why is the statement about Young Hiruzen surpassing Tobirama removed? That should definitely make Prime and Edo Hiruzen High 7-A+, along with him stalemating the Guruguru Yamato statue.

Because that statement specifically mentions talent, not strength, as Tracer pointed out.

 

[Damage3245]

Shouldn't Pain be 6-C with ST as well? It oneshotted Gamabunta and the other 2 giant toads that seemed somewhat relative to him.

The strength of Pain's Shinra Tensei varies a great deal.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

The strength of Pain's Shinra Tensei varies a great deal.

Exactly, but again, that's something we'll discuss later. idk why people keep missing that big fat note about not discussing tier 6 scaling lol

Anyway, could you offer your thoughts about some of the discussions up above Damage? Y'know, the Sannin, Minato, Hiruzen, and Naruto surpassing Minato/Jiraiya stuff. Those seem to be the main points of contention, and I think your input would help settle them.

 

[Damage3245]

Exactly, but again, that's something we'll discuss later. idk why people keep missing that big fat note about not discussing tier 6 scaling lol

Anyway, could you offer your thoughts about some of the discussions up above Damage? Y'know, the Sannin, Minato, Hiruzen, and Naruto surpassing Minato/Jiraiya stuff. Those seem to be the main points of contention, and I think your input would help settle them.

There's a lot of big posts to go through. Can I get a TL;DR of what the main points of disagreement are as I go through them?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Is Minato wank Naruto’s version of Bleach’s Ulquiorra wank?

Yes

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

There's a lot of big posts to go through. Can I get a TL;DR of what the main points of disagreement are as I go through them?

Well, for Hiruzen it's mainly the > Gokage statement and him fighting Guruguru, who fought the Kage. Tracer and I addressed those points in our latest posts.

For the Sannin and Minato, people are disagreeing with Naruto surpassing them for various reasons, which we've also addressed. I think most of the discussions can be summed up in GokuSparkle's latest massive posts, and our response to them in this page.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

That reminds me.

Sasori should scale to Orochimaru, he was able to defeat Orochimaru in a straight-up fight without sustaining major damage, while it'ss Probably true that Orochimaru was not going all out, combined this with the fact that both survive a Casual Shinra Tensei from Pain it does more or less suggest they are relative.

This wouldn't really change the ratings but it would make the scaling more concrete.