See, we told you we were working on it! (Naruto Revision Part 1: Scaling)

[UchihaSlayer96]

That reminds me.

Sasori should scale to Orochimaru, he was able to defeat Orochimaru in a straight-up fight without sustaining major damage, while Probably true that Orochimaru was not going all out, combined this with the fact that both survive a Casual Shinra Tensei from Pain it does more or less suggest they are relative.

This wouldn't really change the ratings but it would make the scaling more concrete.

This is a good point in all honesty.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Just to elaborate a little bit on how this might affect the scaling, I think it'll actually make a lot of things more consistent. Let me explain.

This would support Konan's scaling since she defeated Sasori, and took a Katon from Jiraiya, which would solidify her as Sannin tier.
This would also make Orange Mask Obito's AP a lot more solid as well.

Then there's the Sannin themselves. Sakura is physically stronger than Sasori and his puppets, and is stated to be as strong as Tsunade. Now, we assume that to be for 2nd War Tsunade, which is a fair assumption obviously considering Chiyo is the one who made the statement; however, there's technically nothing that confirms that the Sannin got insanely stronger. If anything, there's things going against it such as Jiraiya believing it impossible for anyone to defeat Hanzo individually. This also supports Chiyo being a rival to Hanzo, since she could somewhat fight Sasori even while weaker than her prime, as per her own admission.
It's not like Sakura has any anti-feats either, seeing as how she's at least stronger than Naruto, Kakashi and Guy physically. Sakura's physical superiority also supports Tsunade's own physical superiority to her peers. (Though it should be noted that it applies to chakra amped Sakura only, for obvious reasons)
Overall, I believe this makes the scaling chains for the Sannin tiers far more consistent.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

seeing as how she's at least stronger than Naruto, Kakashi and Guy physically.

which is also supported by the fact that both Sasori and Orochimaru tanked a Shinrai Tensei much more powerful than the one used Against Kakashi and co.

 

[LordTracer]

So about this Sasori/Orochimaru thing, the Third Kazekage puppet should just be “7-B, possibly higher” since Orochimaru wasn’t going all-out against it.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

yes

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Spoiler: To Tracer

Does it matter? It’s literally just supplementing Naruto being stronger than he was in his first key.

Hard disagree, this is essentially headcanon. Every statement you just gave is in relation to speed, you can’t extrapolate those to AP as well.

That’s not how + ratings work. + ratings are the average of the low-end and high-end of a tier. As such, High 7-A+ begins at 2.65 gigatons.

You don’t put an At least if you’re later upscaling to a + rating, that just looks gross.

That’s your headcanon, and the effects are not shown to be affecting Naruto until afterwards, so we can’t say for sure that they were affecting him during the clash.

I have no idea what you’re referring to here, honestly.

And your proof that he got stronger is…?

Yeah, no. I don’t know where you’re getting him being pained from, he’s literally smirking when he lands after that hit from MS Kakashi and looks no worse than he did before being hit (485). Kakashi isn’t relative to him at all. At BEST, Kakashi could get a “higher with Mangekyō Sharingan (Could send Sasuke flying but didn’t really cause damage to him)”

Sasuke did not blitz A, that’s complete nonsense, and there’s no evidence suggesting that A got stronger before the War Arc.

Did you just not see the part of Pain’s AP that says he Varies? He is not always High 7-A, and he definitely wasn’t against Kakashi.

Context?

Slayer and I agreed to leave “At least” off of all High 7-A+ characters because their ratings might change during the Bijuu scaling later.

A was punching through Guruguru’s Buddha Statue in BASE, and Guruguru fighting the alliance was almost entirely off-screen. We can’t scale based on something we literally didn’t see.

Did you just… not read the rest of Ōnoki’s statement? Literally two sentences later, he says “I guess we’ll have to leave Madara to Naruto,” making it clear that he was referring to Madara, not Guruguru.

Read the part in the OP where it says Boruto scaling is literally just ripped from the current profiles.

Literally in the next page, Kakuzu says “Two of my hearts gone.”

Upscaling from his City level+ calc in The Last.

Read the part in the OP where it says Boruto scaling is literally just ripped from the current profiles.

Once again, read the part of the OP that says Tier 6 stuff was not messed with at all.

Do you have any proof to suggest these? Because otherwise, it’s just headcanon.

I’ll let Slayer and Damage handle this one. Also the statement of him “surpassing” Tobirama is NOT AP. It literally says Hiruzen surpassed him in talent.

Not to be rude, but I feel like a lot of these “issues” are just the result of not reading the manga or what the sandboxes say closely enough.

Also I’m going to bed after this, it’s basically midnight over here.

Very well.

I was just explaining why Minato is a heavily retconned character to show why earlier statements aren't the be all end all, and then in the actual Minato section I talked about feats and statements placing Minato higher.

Ok.

Does it? I don't see how.

Exactly. We can't say for sure either way. That's my point. Plus because ppl are talking about how this messes the scaling chain of FKS Sasuke~>Orochimaru~>Sharingan Taka Sasuke>Blind Taka Sasuke~Base Naruto>Jiraiya~Orochimaru (there is the explanation of hatredamps but ppl here don't seem to like that), it'd make more sense if Naruto was weakened, then it'd be consistent.

I'm saying EMS Sasuke surpassed Alive Itachi in ninjutsu, genjutsu (without Tsukuyomi at least), and taijutsu, not just ninjutsu and occular powers like the profile says.

Because he got used to his EMS and battled which is the quickest way to get stronger as per Bee's statement and got hatred amps from reuinting with Itachi and resenting the leaf more.

He was downright insane at this point, I don't think him smiling proves anything. It's like saying the Joker took no damage from Batman's hits because he laughed at them.

He did.

Alright

Kakashi pierced Obito with a Raikiri enhanced kunai, and Obito's durability is considered likely 6-C+.

Ok

He punched literally one hand off then got slammed away easily. Also why can't it be used when statements and the scene clearly shows the fact that they were losing? That's like saying Hagoromo isn't low end relative to Kaguya because his fight with her was offscreen.

That's an association fallacy. Ohnoki is saying he can't help against Madara because they're tired and stuck with Guruguru.

Ah, I missed that

That's referring to the heart Kakashi destroyed with Raikiri and the one destroyed by Hidan due to Shikamaru's plan.

I see.

K

Do you have any proof to suggest Tobirama could've harmed Madara? Because otherwise it's just headcanon.

I can understand that argument, but the specific wording of the statement makes me think otherwise. It says his talent surpassed Tobirama FROM CHILDHOOD. And it's not like level of talent changes throughout life. It's like saying his eye's size surpassed Tobirama since childhood, since talent is a constant. It doesn't make sense to refer only to childhood if only his talent was higher. The most likely interpretation of the statement is that his talent allowed him to surpass Tobirama from childhood, and it's supported by Young Hiruzen saying he's the strongest of the group.

Sigh idk why ppl keep saying I didn't read the manga when it seems I've combed through it more than most ppl.

Spoiler: To Slayer

Spoiler: NOT GONNA BE FUN

This is gonna suck.....

Train's about to crash

Y'know, this is nice actually. Thanks, I'll probably add it.

The Fukasaku statement could be interpreted as "SM Naruto > Base Minato" or "SM Naruto > SM Minato", and both interpretations would not fit with how highly you're trying to scale Minato; however, both would fit with him being < Naruto in both base and SM.
If that statement existed in a vacuum, I'd agree with you to an extent (though he still would be High 7-A at most, not HIgh 7-A+ or higher lol), but the fact that we also have a statement stating that Naruto's FRS rivaled or surpassed Minato in power just makes all the evidence point in this direction quite heavily.

Whether it was a retcon or not doesn't change what I said above. Besides, it's not something we can prove regardless.

No, absolutely not. This version of Obito is literally dying. There's absolutely no reason for him to scale above his full power self pre-Juubi. BZ is also quite featless on his own. He survived an attack from Mei iirc, but like, she has 7-B physical AP, so....
Also Kakashi himself was quite exhausted here anyway, so this whole sequence is honestly pretty meaningless.

Bruh, please use the official translation lol. It says "A noble man. A finer Shinobi never lived", which is definitely wrong if we take it as an AP comparison COUGH Madara and Hashirama COUGH. A more realistic interpretation is that he's praising his character and skill. Not to mention, again, he was previously praising his speed in the last sentence lol, so yeah. No AP here, and the fact that Minato has exactly ZERO on-screen showings at this level isn't helping his case.

Here's the full context. Bee's not trembling in fear, it's clearly out of excitement, given that.......y'know, he literally starts rapping lol. He was excited to discover that the Rasengan was a Jutsu made by Minato modeled after the BB.

No lol, it does not imply equality, it implies exactly what it say, which is that they are both highly regarded Shinobi who had mutual respect for each other.

Once again, this is irrelevant for a couple of reasons.
#1. This was a much younger Bee, we can't scale him to current B, especially when B is only High 7-A (without V1/2) in the War Arc.
#2. Partial Transformations are not stronger than V2 lol. That has never been implied, stated, or shown. V2 is literally Biju Mode compressed into a humanoid form, and we literally saw the Edo Jinchuriki go from PT to V2, implying that it's stronger, which would make sense since they were overwhelming KCM Naruto a bit more.

Sure, but that's an unquantifiable strength increase, which wouldn't really mean much on its own.

Hell no.

They're nice, but they don't belong in the AP section. Maybe the intelligence section, if anything.

"Taka" encompasses the version as a whole, FKS does not. That's probably why.

For tanking V1 A's Liger Bomb.

Because he lost to Orochimaru when they were younger before Orochimaru left the village. Considering Orochimaru is far more obsessed with getting stronger and collecting Jutsu, I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that he's developed at least as much as Jiraiya. This would mean that Orochimaru would more than likely remain a little bit superior at least.
As for Tsunade, she is physically stronger than both as her profile makes clear.

He is far stronger. This'll be implemented in the Bijuu revisions, but here is the actual scaling chain:
EMS Madara >~ SM Madara > Blind Madara > Edo Madara.
If you're wondering why Blind Madara is superior to Edo Madara, it's because he casually broke out of the Deity Gates which were previously restraining him.
Thanks for the scan though, I'll probably use it as well.

This portion was off-screen. We don't know what happened after. Madara could've used Susano'o or Katon, or literally anything else. We simply do not know.
Also, it'd contradict them clashing equally in base multiple times if Madara was equal to Hashirama with a SM amp.

No, sick Itachi is not stronger than any version of Sasuke beyond CS1.5 Sasuke. I'm sorry, but direct showings will always trump vague statements with various potential interpretations like the ones from Obito. As for the DB statement, it could easily be referring to Itachi at his peak. It would make no sense for it to refer to Itachi on his literal deathbed.

I don't have the novel quotes, if you can provide them, that would be appreciated.
As for Orochimaru, he was defeated by 3tomoe Itachi, not MS Itachi. How stronger did he get in base? We don't know, as such we can't assume that he got much stronger without reason. Also, I'm pretty sure there was a statement made by Itachi during the massacre about Shisui being stronger than him and being able to stop him, but I don't have the novel on me unfortunately.

Absolutely not. These statements have no direct implications for AP. Obito has no AP feats against Minato. All we know is that he considers him dangerous, which could easily be due to his absurd abilities and intelligence.

Done.

It doesn't matter? The war happened days after the FKS, maybe weaks. There's no proof that Gaara got stronger later, so it's not worth making a separate key for.

Hehehe, no. Part 1 characters like Kimimaro are not upscaling Sage Mode Naruto and KCM, forget it. This scan is pretty much meaningless because it's likely due to their Edo Immortality and regen that they survived this long. Plus, Chiyo was using the Samurai as meat shields, and Naruto wouldn't kill them in character.

Uhhh, yeah it does. It would make base Ay stronger than his V1 Raiton Cloak self. Endless circular upscaling chains aren't that hard to come up with, but they are not good for scaling.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda. There's no proof that he got stronger, so I'll just ignore this.

Then the feat should be scrapped as an outlier because regular V2 A was unable to even scratch Madara's ribcage Susano'o. He has no business scaling to the Humanoid Susano'o.

What feats?

No offense, but I don't care lol. This thread isn't meant to go into Boruto scaling as the OP made abundantly clear.

Hmmm, honestly, fair enough. Though this only shit on your Minato arguments further lol.

Because we need proof that it's stronger than Biju Mode compressed in humanoid form?

Which we didn't see. All we saw was her running away and going into BM pretty quickly.

She already does, no?

No, this isn't allowed on the wiki. Only striking strength can scale to durability due to Newton's 3rd Law, but not the other way around. The only way for that to happen is if a character was shown to be capable of harming themselves, or those that scale to him.

No, we don't scale dura to feats like that.

Him suriving Tengai Shinsei is not a 6-C+ feat lol. He doesn't scale to the meteors full yield due to surface area. I think the feat is tier 7 if calced. Him stopping it by making it lighter, over time mind you, is not an AP feat either, it's hax.

Only if Guruguru ends up being High 7-A+.

He already scales to Darui, B is ehhh because he was pretty causal and definitely stronger, but he can downscale I guess. Ay is a big fat no.

No, this wouldn't scale to him overall. It would only scale to his durability while he's amping it with extra shields, and even then it's iffy.

Whatever indeed.

Fair enough, I fixed it.

They fought, but it was off-screen like the Rasa example. We have no proof that Sasori overpowered the Iron Sand, he could've just gotten to him with Poison, or a miriad of other possible variables that may or may not have taken place. The 3rd Kazekage, like most other Kazekage, has Unknown physical capabilities after all.

Uhh no, he's not relative to Rinnegan SM Madara lol. That's so random.

Well, you bloody failed at that mate, didn't ya? Concise my ass lol

Nah actually, the fact that I didn't find the debunks very solid makes me more confident in my stance

What can I say except You're Welcome?

I know, my main debunk is just Minato capping at 7-B, and I'm saying even if you kept that statement and considered it valid, it wouldn't lock Minato at 7-B. Also something else to keep in mind. The statement wasn't only referring to AP. It was a wholistic comparison, meaning Base Naruto would be able to beat Minato in a fight, which should mean he's Sub Relativistic or Relativistic depending on what Minato's speed is scaled to in the revisions, and that contradicts a TON.

Base Naruto's Rasenshuriken AP is actually unknown though besides scaling below SM Naruto's. We know it's above 7-B given that it one shot Kakuzu who in a weaker form tanked hits from 7-Bs. Plus the statement about the Rasenshuriken being above Minato means the jutsu itself is more advanced than the Rasengan, not that he's stronger in terms of AP. Base Naruto's Rasenshuriken is a jutsu beyond a KCM2 Minato Rasengan technically speaking, but it's obviously weaker AP wise.

It being a retcon does mean Base Naruto isn't superior to Base Minato though.

I mean BZ Obito with a bit of Six Paths chakra he stole from Madara (definitely less than he had as Juubito) is 5-C so...Also Zetsu has been shown to amp injured ppl beyond their base.

So Obito being near death is irrelevant. Plus even more near death BZ Obito casually blocked an Enton Arrow

Why would he be excited only after hearing it was Minato? Either way he knows whoever made the Rasengan modelled it on the TBB.

C'mon, the statement is clearly implying relativity. Mutually recognized can mean more than one thing, but the face value interpretation is that they're equal, and if anything your interpretation wouldn't be in Ay and Bee's favor, but in Minato's, since he had the upper hand in their onscreen

1. Bee was a perfect jin still considering his mastery of partial transformations, so he would've been able to go into V1 and V2 in their fights.
2. Partial Transformation is literally Bijuu Mode lol. And the Jinchuriki transforming into V2 is because PTs are only for one part of the body while V2 is the whole thing. Plus, those taild are scaled to their size, while the tail Minato cut was exponentially larger than V2 tails and Bee and the WA PT tails.

Sure.

Right after Naruto smacked away 5 Bijuudamas in KCM2, he was compared to Minato. You can take it as either a purely speed based comparison or holsitic.

Saying his capacity as a shinobi is unparalleled seems more strength then intelligence.

Aight sure

Ah yes. More backscaling from the war arc.

Sure.

The Madara that broke out of the Deity gates was Alive Double Rinnegan Madara.

The fact that the next time we saw them fighting they were holding weapons, it implies it was a cqc fight.

They could've just been warming up at the start of their fight, and at the end/in the war, Madara could have just been weakened by fighting SM Hashirama, and the Edo regen wasn't as fast as he was getting weakened.

There are multiple versions of Sick Itachi. Thr Itachi that fought Sasuke was literally minutes to an hour from death, the statements about Itachi are likely referring to a Sick Itachi that isn't so close to death. And considering that version of Itachi doesn't really have antifeats since he doesn't go all out, the statements don't contradict anything.

I don't have the direct quotes, but I know Danzo used something to poison Shisui offguard (I believe his Aburame clan minion helped).

Hatred amps are stated to rapidly make you stronger.

Idk, needs Nine Tails POWER to defeat seems like an implication. If not a direct upgrade, his AP can include a possibly higher with a link to those pieces of evidence and then explaining why it's not accepted as a direct upgrade (similar to the Hiruzen>Gokage statement).

Alright.

He went from almost scared of the Skeletal Susanoo to blocking Madara's Humanoid Susanoo.

The 3rd Raikage and 2nd Mizukage's Edo Tensei form didn't help against Naruto.

If he displayed better feats, he got stronger. It's that simple. If he could harm the statue which was soloing them, he got stronger, or he only downscales since it's just one arm he destroyed, or it's an outlier.

I don't recall V2 Ay on his own hitting the Susanoo. Besides a wood clone's Susanoo would be weaker than the original's.

Holding his own of course. He was losing obviously, but it wasn't a completely one sided battle.

Mk

Nah, not really, he would still scale above 6 tails Naruto after all.

Because it is Bijuu Mode, just morphed into one body part rather than the whole thing.

Sure

No, it just says Unknown for Alive Yuugito. Unless you mean her BM key is for both Alive and Edo which ig makes sense I brainfarted huh.

Right

It should probably be calced then.

True.

It doesn't say it on his profile though I'm pretty sure.

Yeah, so a side note in his durability.

It tru tho

Ok

Ok

Because BZ Obito with SPC from Madara is considered 5-C and scales to Juubi Madara, and obviously Madara has a larger six paths chakra buff than Obito, so if you remove their buffs normal BZ Obito would scale to the form of Madara right before absorbing the Juubi, AKA Rinnegan SM Madara.

Trust me, it coulda been a LOT longer.

Finally Kakuzu and Sasori are out of 7-C limbo and no longer weaker than CS2 kid Sasuke, that was wack

Wait what? That was a thing?

Oh lord not the KCM level Chiyo and Kimimaro nonsense

Slayer already took care of most of that, so I’ll just make something clear for everyone here: off-screen fights DO NOT qualify as proper scaling. If we don’t, y’know, see what happened, we can’t make claims that the characters fighting are relative or anything like that.

Why doesn't that qualify for a possibly rating tho?

Uhhh, yeah no. If you read the statement carefully, you'll notice that Kabuto's exact words were "After all, we did take on the Hokage fully knowing his reputation as the strongest leader of the five principle territories." Keyword being "reputation".
Do you honestly think that Hiruzen built a reputation of being the strongest Kage while sitting on a desk for 12+ years? In a time of peace no less? This reputation could've only been built during times of war; y'know, the only possible times where Hiruzen could've even battled or been compared to other Kage on the battlefield in the first place.
Then there's the fact that nobody was aware of how much Hiruzen's age had weakened him physically, not even Orochimaru or Kabuto did. This is probably why he came with Edo Hokage prepared in tow. He didn't even have to directly fight Hiruzen for the most part, and didn't even use his strongest Snake summons against him.

Because that statement specifically mentions talent, not strength, as Tracer pointed out.

I suppose you're right. Although considering in P1 he was considered the strongest Hokage, it seems weird it wouldn't talk about that lore which is more impressive.

He knew he'd be weaker, as he knows Hiruzen's prime strength and acknowledges it as greater than his.

Already adressed this in my comment to Tracer near the end of the first half of this.

 

[LordTracer]

Does it? I don't see how.

If a character was At least High 7-A in their first key and then got stronger and went to High 7-A+ in their next one, their tier section would end up looking like this: “At least High 7-A | High 7-A”. That’s high-key gross. Also Naruto doesn’t qualify for an At least anyways.

Exactly. We can't say for sure either way. That's my point.

We actually can be sure, because the poison literally didn’t affect him until after the fight.

FKS Sasuke~>Orochimaru~>Sharingan Taka Sasuke>Blind Taka Sasuke~Base Naruto>Jiraiya~Orochimaru

It’s almost like Orochimaru doesn’t scale to Taka Sasuke or something

Also (since you apparently consider them separate), why are you referring to Sharingan and Blind Sasuke as Taka and not FKS?

I'm saying EMS Sasuke surpassed Alive Itachi in ninjutsu, genjutsu (without Tsukuyomi at least), and taijutsu, not just ninjutsu and occular powers like the profile says.

Genjutsu and taijutsu don’t have anything to do with his stats but ooookay.

Because he got used to his EMS and battled which is the quickest way to get stronger as per Bee's statement and got hatred amps from reuinting with Itachi and resenting the leaf more.

Scans to show literally any of this?

He did.

That’s not a blitz, what? That is literally just Sasuke dodging A’s attack because of his Sharingan.

Kakashi pierced Obito with a Raikiri enhanced kunai, and Obito's durability is considered likely 6-C+.

Read the part of the OP that mentions Tier 6 stuff-

He punched literally one hand off then got slammed away easily.

That still shows that base A can damage the statue lmao

Also why can't it be used when statements and the scene clearly shows the fact that they were losing? That's like saying Hagoromo isn't low end relative to Kaguya because his fight with her was offscreen.

He’s technically not even relative to Kaguya

That's an association fallacy. Ohnoki is saying he can't help against Madara because they're tired and stuck with Guruguru.

I don’t think you understand what an association fallacy actually is. Also Ōnoki says they’ve been using big attacks too much, and who were they using big attacks against? That’s right, against Madara. Also the Kage went into that fight still scuffed up (635) so nah, Guruguru ain’t scaling to the full power Gokage based on a fight THAT WE DIDN’T SEE lmao.

He was downright insane at this point, I don't think him smiling proves anything. It's like saying the Joker took no damage from Batman's hits because he laughed at them.

Completely unrelated and does not disprove my point at all.

Do you have any proof to suggest Tobirama could've harmed Madara? Because otherwise it's just headcanon.

Madara felt the need to, y’know, dodge it. Also he said that he only had the edge because Hashirama and Tobirama were weakened by the Edo Tensei, so yes, there is actually evidence pointing towards Tobirama being able to damage Madara.

I can understand that argument, but the specific wording of the statement makes me think otherwise. It says his talent surpassed Tobirama FROM CHILDHOOD. And it's not like level of talent changes throughout life. It's like saying his eye's size surpassed Tobirama since childhood, since talent is a constant. It doesn't make sense to refer only to childhood if only his talent was higher. The most likely interpretation of the statement is that his talent allowed him to surpass Tobirama from childhood

Or we just, y’know, go with what the statement says instead of trying to extrapolate a different meaning from it.. Also talent absolutely changes throughout life lmao, Chapter 1 Naruto is nowhere near as talented as Chapter 700 Naruto.

and it's supported by Young Hiruzen saying he's the strongest of the group.

For God’s sake, use the OFFICIAL TRANSLATIONS. I don’t know why you keep using fan translations when they will literally never get accepted. Hiruzen says that he’s the most ACCOMPLISHED of the group (481). That does not, in any world, translate to AP.

Sigh idk why ppl keep saying I didn't read the manga when it seems I've combed through it more than most ppl.

There’s a difference between reading something and reading it closely.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

If a character was At least High 7-A in their first key and then got stronger and went to High 7-A+ in their next one, their tier section would end up looking like this: “At least High 7-A | High 7-A”. That’s high-key gross. Also Naruto doesn’t qualify for an At least anyways.

We actually can be sure, because the poison literally didn’t affect him until after the fight.

It’s almost like Orochimaru doesn’t scale to Taka Sasuke or something

Also (since you apparently consider them separate), why are you referring to Sharingan and Blind Sasuke as Taka and not FKS?

Genjutsu and taijutsu don’t have anything to do with his stats but ooookay.

Scans to show literally any of this?

That’s not a blitz, what? That is literally just Sasuke dodging A’s attack because of his Sharingan.

Read the part of the OP that mentions Tier 6 stuff-

That still shows that base A can damage the statue lmao

He’s technically not even relative to Kaguya

I don’t think you understand what an association fallacy actually is. Also Ōnoki says they’ve been using big attacks too much, and who were they using big attacks against? That’s right, against Madara. Also the Kage went into that fight still scuffed up (635) so nah, Guruguru ain’t scaling to the full power Gokage based on a fight THAT WE DIDN’T SEE lmao.

Completely unrelated and does not disprove my point at all.

Madara felt the need to, y’know, dodge it. Also he said that he only had the edge because Hashirama and Tobirama were weakened by the Edo Tensei, so yes, there is actually evidence pointing towards Tobirama being able to damage Madara.

Or we just, y’know, go with what the statement says instead of trying to extrapolate a different meaning from it.. Also talent absolutely changes throughout life lmao, Chapter 1 Naruto is nowhere near as talented as Chapter 700 Naruto.

For God’s sake, use the OFFICIAL TRANSLATIONS. I don’t know why you keep using fan translations when they will literally never get accepted. Hiruzen says that he’s the most ACCOMPLISHED of the group (481). That does not, in any world, translate to AP.

There’s a difference between reading something and reading it closely.

Or "At least Large Mountain level, Large Mountain level+ later in the war"

I showed the Suigestu statement of FKS Sasuke just surpassing Oro

Idk why I mentioned them as different, I meant MS FKS Sasuke~>Orochimaru~>3T FKS Sasuke and so on.

Taijutsu is speed and strength.

I think it's common sense that he battled, and the same should apply to him getting used to the EMS since he just got it. As for hatred amps, here

Blitz definition: "Speed Blitz is the act of one attacking their opponent before they are capable of perceiving or reacting to them." That's what Sasuke did when he stabbed Ay with his Chidori.

Mhm

So why does Suigetsu not scale to Ay or why doesn't Jugo scale to Ay for very briefly contending with him physically before getting stomped? Or is Ay 7-B? That's my point. Ay massively downscales from the statue, enough that a very small feat doesn't say anything about its strength.

He does speedwise on his current profile at least.

Or they were using big attacks against the statue. This is supported by him then saying "and we haven't had a chance to regroup," when they DID get to regroup after being healed. This further implies the statement is only about the current fight.

Some mild scractches don't really mean anything.

It's an analogy. You get my point don't you?

I already adressed him dodging as him being more careful, which you didn't respond to. As for his statement about only having an advantage because they were Edo, sure but that wouldn't scale to Edo Tobirama, only Alive Tobirama.

Naruto had the same innate talent the whole time, he just hadn't tapped into it.

Who said they're fan translations? There are multiple published translations of the Naruto manga. And I'm on my phone and for some reason the site with the version ur talking about I can't find here. Anyways that statement can also be taken as Hiruzen overall being the most powerful ninja there, it's just more vague.

Says the person who didn't remember how Kakuzu lost his hearts

 

[MinatoSparkle]

If a character was At least High 7-A in their first key and then got stronger and went to High 7-A+ in their next one, their tier section would end up looking like this: “At least High 7-A | High 7-A”. That’s high-key gross. Also Naruto doesn’t qualify for an At least anyways.

We actually can be sure, because the poison literally didn’t affect him until after the fight.

It’s almost like Orochimaru doesn’t scale to Taka Sasuke or something

Also (since you apparently consider them separate), why are you referring to Sharingan and Blind Sasuke as Taka and not FKS?

Genjutsu and taijutsu don’t have anything to do with his stats but ooookay.

Scans to show literally any of this?

That’s not a blitz, what? That is literally just Sasuke dodging A’s attack because of his Sharingan.

Read the part of the OP that mentions Tier 6 stuff-

That still shows that base A can damage the statue lmao

He’s technically not even relative to Kaguya

I don’t think you understand what an association fallacy actually is. Also Ōnoki says they’ve been using big attacks too much, and who were they using big attacks against? That’s right, against Madara. Also the Kage went into that fight still scuffed up (635) so nah, Guruguru ain’t scaling to the full power Gokage based on a fight THAT WE DIDN’T SEE lmao.

Completely unrelated and does not disprove my point at all.

Madara felt the need to, y’know, dodge it. Also he said that he only had the edge because Hashirama and Tobirama were weakened by the Edo Tensei, so yes, there is actually evidence pointing towards Tobirama being able to damage Madara.

Or we just, y’know, go with what the statement says instead of trying to extrapolate a different meaning from it.. Also talent absolutely changes throughout life lmao, Chapter 1 Naruto is nowhere near as talented as Chapter 700 Naruto.

For God’s sake, use the OFFICIAL TRANSLATIONS. I don’t know why you keep using fan translations when they will literally never get accepted. Hiruzen says that he’s the most ACCOMPLISHED of the group (481). That does not, in any world, translate to AP.

There’s a difference between reading something and reading it closely.

Oh and if you mean scan for Bee's statement, I sent it to Slayer already so you can use the find function and search Bee or something

 

[LordTracer]

Spoiler: P A I N

Or "At least Large Mountain level, Large Mountain level+ later in the war"

That still looks gross. And again, Naruto does not qualify for an At least.

I showed the Suigestu statement of FKS Sasuke just surpassing Oro

Wow it’s almost like that’s literally the version of Sasuke that we’re scaling above Orochimaru

Idk why I mentioned them as different, I meant MS FKS Sasuke~>Orochimaru~>3T FKS Sasuke and so on.

This interpretation doesn’t even make sense with Suigetsu’s statement, such a thing isn’t implied at all.

Taijutsu is speed and strength.

This isn’t a speed thread and EMS Sasuke already scales above Itachi in strength sooooooo

I think it's common sense that he battled, and the same should apply to him getting used to the EMS since he just got it.

And your evidence of this increasing his AP is…?

As for hatred amps, here

Now show evidence of EMS Sasuke getting such an amp.

Blitz definition: "Speed Blitz is the act of one attacking their opponent before they are capable of perceiving or reacting to them." That's what Sasuke did when he stabbed Ay with his Chidori.

No. He didn’t. He literally just ducked under A’s already extended arm and poked him while already at close range. That is not a speedblitz. By that logic, A blitzed Sasuke by picking him up since he couldn’t do anything about it.

So why does Suigetsu not scale to Ay or why doesn't Jugo scale to Ay for very briefly contending with him physically before getting stomped?

They did not contend with him, did you not see the discussion we already had about this exact thing? Suigetsu directly said that if he wasn’t made of water, A would’ve RIPPED HIS ARMS OFF. Jūgo, even with extra shields, was annihilated by A in the course of like two pages.

That's my point. Ay massively downscales from the statue, enough that a very small feat doesn't say anything about its strength.

Hell no, this is not the same thing at all. A BROKE ONE OF ITS HANDS. PERIOD. That means the statue’s durability is < Base A. Also that’s not A getting punched afterwards. That’s MEI lmao. So you actually have no evidence to suggest that A massively downscales.

He does speedwise on his current profile at least.

Current profiles aren’t an argument, they will be changed. Next.

Or they were using big attacks against the statue.

Show me a scan of this. I want to see proof of it happening.

Some mild scractches don't really mean anything.

Based on what?

It's an analogy. You get my point don't you?

Your point is incorrect and the analogy doesn’t entirely fit, but sure. Doesn’t change that Kakashi didn’t harm Sasuke at all.

I already adressed him dodging as him being more careful, which you didn't respond to.

How is he supposed to be more careful against a surprise attack he didn’t expect

As for his statement about only having an advantage because they were Edo, sure but that wouldn't scale to Edo Tobirama, only Alive Tobirama.

It’s almost like Tobirama said he and the other Hokage were revived near full power-

Naruto had the same innate talent the whole time, he just hadn't tapped into it.

Proof?

Who said they're fan translations?

You’ve got to be joking. I think it’s pretty damn clear that, on this site, we consider the Viz translation to be the official one. As such, that is the translation you have to use.

Anyways that statement can also be taken as Hiruzen overall being the most powerful ninja there, it's just more vague.

No, it cannot. You cannot extrapolate the word accomplished to mean stronger. In fact, if you look up the definition of accomplished, all of the definitions given point to, guess what, skill and training, not strength.

Says the person who didn't remember how Kakuzu lost his hearts

I could point out how insanely ironic this is coming from you, but it’d be mean so I won’t.

 

[Nierre]

Too many spoilers

I'm not caught up stop spoiling smh

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Spoiler: Why are we still here?

........

Nah actually, the fact that I didn't find the debunks very solid makes me more confident in my stance

I could say the same, but enough of the banter lol. Let's let our arguments do the talking, and then the mods will decide which stance is more acceptable in the end.

What can I say except You're Welcome?

I know, my main debunk is just Minato capping at 7-B, and I'm saying even if you kept that statement and considered it valid, it wouldn't lock Minato at 7-B. Also something else to keep in mind. The statement wasn't only referring to AP. It was a wholistic comparison, meaning Base Naruto would be able to beat Minato in a fight, which should mean he's Sub Relativistic or Relativistic depending on what Minato's speed is scaled to in the revisions, and that contradicts a TON.

He's 7-B because he doesn't scale to any High 7-A feats. It's not like I'm artificially capping him at 7-B just because. The fact of the matter is that Minato has no good AP feats on-screen, so we're stuck with statement based scaling for him, and as you know statements can potentially have multiple interpretations and/or be contradicted by other statements, which I believe is the case here.
Uhhh, no, the statement about base Naruto was referring specifically to the power of the Rasenshuriken, no speed was involved there.
And if you're talking about SM Naruto, I don't see how Fukasaku's statement means he'd win in a fight. That's not how such things work necessarily. For instance, Sasuke was stronger than Itachi physically, but still wouldn't have beaten him in a fight if he was willing to kill Sasuke. (Even if you disagree, just go along with it lol, it's just an example to show that AP isn't everything).

Base Naruto's Rasenshuriken AP is actually unknown though besides scaling below SM Naruto's. We know it's above 7-B given that it one shot Kakuzu who in a weaker form tanked hits from 7-Bs. Plus the statement about the Rasenshuriken being above Minato means the jutsu itself is more advanced than the Rasengan, not that he's stronger in terms of AP. Base Naruto's Rasenshuriken is a jutsu beyond a KCM2 Minato Rasengan technically speaking, but it's obviously weaker AP wise.

No, the statement specifically mentions power. You can dance around that fact all you want, but it won't change it.

It being a retcon does mean Base Naruto isn't superior to Base Minato though.

And I'm saying that you need to prove it was retconned, which you can't because most of the evidence you've brought up is mostly not even AP based or flimsy at best.

I mean BZ Obito with a bit of Six Paths chakra he stole from Madara (definitely less than he had as Juubito) is 5-C so...Also Zetsu has been shown to amp injured ppl beyond their base.

So Obito being near death is irrelevant. Plus even more near death BZ Obito casually blocked an Enton Arrow

It's not irrelevant because amping someone who's power is Unknown at the time by an unknown amount is.......well, unknown. BZ Obito's 5-C feats are mainly after he absorbed Bijuu chakra from Madara, and blocking an Enton Arrow wouldn't put him above Rinnegan Madara because Madara is High 6-C while Sasuke is High 7-A+.

Why would he be excited only after hearing it was Minato? Either way he knows whoever made the Rasengan modelled it on the TBB.

Which is irrelevant for determining Minato's AP either way.

C'mon, the statement is clearly implying relativity. Mutually recognized can mean more than one thing, but the face value interpretation is that they're equal, and if anything your interpretation wouldn't be in Ay and Bee's favor, but in Minato's, since he had the upper hand in their onscreen

He had the upper hand because of his reaction speed and FTG. The only AP feat in that altercation is him cutting Bee's tentacle, which once again has Unknown durability because that version of B is featless.
The face value interpretation is that they respect each other, which we already know.

1. Bee was a perfect jin still considering his mastery of partial transformations, so he would've been able to go into V1 and V2 in their fights.
2. Partial Transformation is literally Bijuu Mode lol. And the Jinchuriki transforming into V2 is because PTs are only for one part of the body while V2 is the whole thing. Plus, those taild are scaled to their size, while the tail Minato cut was exponentially larger than V2 tails and Bee and the WA PT tails.

1. And yet, he didn't in the only encounter we saw, so this is irrelevant.
2. No, it's not. You were already debunked on this point in your CRT, just stop it lol.

Right after Naruto smacked away 5 Bijuudamas in KCM2, he was compared to Minato. You can take it as either a purely speed based comparison or holsitic.

He was compared to Minato in speed, because Guy said in the previous panel "so fast!". Like most Minato statements, the context is clearly for speed.

Saying his capacity as a shinobi is unparalleled seems more strength then intelligence.

No, it's way too vague for that to mean anything substantial. Unparalleled compared to who? Statements like that are useless NLF trash without further context.

Ah yes. More backscaling from the war arc.

Do you have proof that Ay was stronger in the war? After losing his dominant arm?

The Madara that broke out of the Deity gates was Alive Double Rinnegan Madara.

They were fake Rinnegan and disintegrated literally a second later, I don't see how they'd offer any substantial amps at that point.

The fact that the next time we saw them fighting they were holding weapons, it implies it was a cqc fight.

That was literally hours later when both were completely exhausted, we do not know what happened in between.

They could've just been warming up at the start of their fight, and at the end/in the war, Madara could have just been weakened by fighting SM Hashirama, and the Edo regen wasn't as fast as he was getting weakened.

Huh? What is this? Madara's regeneration was never shown to be weaker, and he was never implied to be weaker. This is headcanon.

There are multiple versions of Sick Itachi. Thr Itachi that fought Sasuke was literally minutes to an hour from death, the statements about Itachi are likely referring to a Sick Itachi that isn't so close to death. And considering that version of Itachi doesn't really have antifeats since he doesn't go all out, the statements don't contradict anything.

And that hypothetical version of Sick Itachi was never seen, except in Part I maybe, so this doesn't matter and doesn't change anything about what I said.

I don't have the direct quotes, but I know Danzo used something to poison Shisui offguard (I believe his Aburame clan minion helped).

Yeah, I remember the thing about the poison.

Hatred amps are stated to rapidly make you stronger.

It's still completely unquantifiable. You be "stronger" by 1.001x or 1000x, you would be stronger either way.

Idk, needs Nine Tails POWER to defeat seems like an implication. If not a direct upgrade, his AP can include a possibly higher with a link to those pieces of evidence and then explaining why it's not accepted as a direct upgrade (similar to the Hiruzen>Gokage statement).

It already does.

He went from almost scared of the Skeletal Susanoo to blocking Madara's Humanoid Susanoo.

He wasn't scared of him.......
They didn't get to fight (because Sasuke ran away). You can't just assume Sasuke would've been stronger for no reason.

The 3rd Raikage and 2nd Mizukage's Edo Tensei form didn't help against Naruto.

Uhh, yeah, it did. The Raikage would've been dead if not for being an Edo Tensei due to how the Rasenshuriken works. And the same goes for..............uhhhh, don't you mean Tsuchikage (Muu) actually? I don't think Naruto fought Gengetsu. But anyway, yeah, Muu would've been dead with the wounds Naruto gave him if he were alive.

If he displayed better feats, he got stronger. It's that simple. If he could harm the statue which was soloing them, he got stronger, or he only downscales since it's just one arm he destroyed, or it's an outlier.

None of this matters until you prove that the statue is High 7-A+.

I don't recall V2 Ay on his own hitting the Susanoo. Besides a wood clone's Susanoo would be weaker than the original's.

Here. They wouldn't be significantly weaker because they can still keep up with and harm the same Kage who scale to the original. Plus, wood clones are stated to have superior durability to shadow clones, so it would somewhat scale to the original in both AP and dura. Plus, they're also stated to be harder to distinguish from the original, without powerful Dojutsu, which would be strange if they were significantly weaker.

Holding his own of course. He was losing obviously, but it wasn't a completely one sided battle.

Then it doesn't matter. Him downscaling isn't worth mentioning because he already has more concrete feats to scale to. Plus, it would lead to circular scaling because Kin and Gin already scale to Darui on their profiles.

Nah, not really, he would still scale above 6 tails Naruto after all.

I guess? V2 would upscale V1, which scales to Ay who scales to KCM who scales to KN6, so yeah, you're right.

Because it is Bijuu Mode, just morphed into one body part rather than the whole thing.

It really isn't Bijuu Mode lmao. Like we said a billion times, it's nowhere near as large as the real body of Gyuuki, and we have no statements confirming it as such.

No, it just says Unknown for Alive Yuugito. Unless you mean her BM key is for both Alive and Edo which ig makes sense I brainfarted huh.

Yeah, I meant her BM key.

It should probably be calced then.

You can request it on the calc request thread, but lemme tell you right now, it's not going above 7-B. I can guarantee it.

It doesn't say it on his profile though I'm pretty sure.

Darui scaling? Yeah, because it'd be circular since Darui already scales from him.

Yeah, so a side note in his durability.

Sure.
How about "higher with Shields (Somewhat withstood the force of V1 A's punch, though A easily punched through his arm and chest soon after)"?

It tru tho

It is, but it doesn't change the fact that he was stronger than before with less bodies and/or when he was closer to Nagato.

Because BZ Obito with SPC from Madara is considered 5-C and scales to Juubi Madara, and obviously Madara has a larger six paths chakra buff than Obito, so if you remove their buffs normal BZ Obito would scale to the form of Madara right before absorbing the Juubi, AKA Rinnegan SM Madara.

This isn't how it works. Rinnegan Obito wasn't stronger than SM Rinnegan Madara, so a weaker version of him with an inferior amp wouldn't make him stronger. The logic of Obito scaling to Madara in general is asinine, and I didn't even wanna include it, but Tracer didn't want to ignore feats. But logically speaking it makes zero sense, and I won't accept Obito backscaling from it.

Trust me, it coulda been a LOT longer.

Thanks I guess? lol

I suppose you're right. Although considering in P1 he was considered the strongest Hokage, it seems weird it wouldn't talk about that lore which is more impressive.

Another statement that's clearly referring to him in his prime. Old Hiruzen literally cannot be the strongest Hokage because he was matched by heavily nerfed Tobirama and Hashirama.

He knew he'd be weaker, as he knows Hiruzen's prime strength and acknowledges it as greater than his.

You're confusing Prime Hiruzen for the Hiruzen that Orochimaru was referring to 10 years ago. That version of Hiruzen would still be old, and not in his prime, just vaguely stronger than he is currently.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

cant believe base Minato's only quantifiable on-screen feat is giving teen obito the rasengan

 

[KingTempest]

Taijutsu is speed and strength.

Taijutsu is skill, not speed and strength

 

[M3X_2.0]

Taijutsu is literally described as speed and strength everywhere you look for it.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Taijutsu is skill, not speed and strength

actually it's all three

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Guys, the Databook separates Taijutsu from strength and speed. They're ranked separately.

 

[M3X_2.0]

It's not about that. Look for Taijutsu in databooks or in Guy's or Lee's profiles in the databooks. Taijutsu is strength and speed.

 

[KingTempest]

Taijutsu is literally described as speed and strength everywhere you look for it.

Neji, Hinata, and the whole Hyuga clan have no strength in their taijutsu and they're some of the best, and even someone like Hinata is slow

Only in instances like Rock Lee and Guy's strong fist style is strength a factor

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Neji, Hinata, and the whole Hyuga clan have no strength in their taijutsu and they're some of the best, and even someone like Hinata is slow

Only in instances like Rock Lee and Guy's strong fist style is strength a factor

That's fair But they do include speed...(mostly with Neji)

 

[M3X_2.0]

Completely different. Their Taijutsu is focused on a completely different basis than regular Taijutsu, as they aim to damaged your tenketsu and use eyes that allow them to hit precisely.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

Can we at least know what's gonna happen with the 6-Cs in the future thread?
So we can get a general idea

 

[M3X_2.0]

Might Guy, the greatest Taijutsu user in Konohagakure. The essence of his Taijutsu is concentrated in this spinning back kick. He spins with such speed that not a single person can follow his movement, smashing his enemy with overwhelming strength.

An attack of kicks in a row. It starts with a low kick, connects with a medium and high, and ends with a heel strike, like a storm! Its high speed spins are like a gust of wind, and the target ends up being caught by the kicks without even having time to think!!

Rare speed and strength! A blow possible only for someone loyal to Taijutsu, like Lee.

Because of the destructive force in one hit, this technique is in the highest class among all Taijutsu

Taijutsu is strength and speed. That's not debatable.

 

[Damage3245]

Can we at least know what's gonna happen with the 6-Cs in the future thread?
So we can get a general idea

No.

 

[KingTempest]

Taijutsu is strength and speed. That's not debatable.

You're comparing a fighting style called "strong fist" which has the sole purpose of breaking bones which barely anybody uses and Guy specifically says "me and Lee" vs the whole broad definition of Taijutsu. False equivalence.

And Neji even without attacking internal organs has good taijutsu and he doesn't break bones.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I'm comparing what Taijutsu really is to what you are saying. Is Taijutsu based on skill? Yes. Is Taijutsu based only in skill? It sure isn't. The fact that you have a type of Taijutsu that relies on speed and strength debunks the idea of Taijutsu being only skill. Hell even Neji need the speed necessary to hit his targets before they react and block.

And Neji even without attacking internal organs has good taijutsu and he doesn't break bones.

Wich is based on high speed movements. The accuracy is the basis of its power. Most, if not all all Hyuga techniques are high speed based.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Taijutsu is literally every physical attack. You can have Taijutsu without skill, hell even the Bijuus like kokuo have Taijutsu, he literally attacks with a horn or something like that, with great strength.

Taijutsu isn't the fancy movements we see and enjoy, Taijutsu can be a punch, a kick, using a weapon, rushing towards your enemy. You can have taijutsu without skill, aka, without the fancy movements we see. But you can't have taijutsu without speed and strength.

 

[M3X_2.0]

And about the arguments made before, I completly agree with everything Minato related. I myself consider lore statements and manga statements to be above whatever a volume summary tells you

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Spoiler: Tracing the outline of my debunk

Spoiler: P A I N

That still looks gross. And again, Naruto does not qualify for an At least.

Wow it’s almost like that’s literally the version of Sasuke that we’re scaling above Orochimaru

This interpretation doesn’t even make sense with Suigetsu’s statement, such a thing isn’t implied at all.

This isn’t a speed thread and EMS Sasuke already scales above Itachi in strength sooooooo

And your evidence of this increasing his AP is…?

Now show evidence of EMS Sasuke getting such an amp.

No. He didn’t. He literally just ducked under A’s already extended arm and poked him while already at close range. That is not a speedblitz. By that logic, A blitzed Sasuke by picking him up since he couldn’t do anything about it.

They did not contend with him, did you not see the discussion we already had about this exact thing? Suigetsu directly said that if he wasn’t made of water, A would’ve RIPPED HIS ARMS OFF. Jūgo, even with extra shields, was annihilated by A in the course of like two pages.

Hell no, this is not the same thing at all. A BROKE ONE OF ITS HANDS. PERIOD. That means the statue’s durability is < Base A. Also that’s not A getting punched afterwards. That’s MEI lmao. So you actually have no evidence to suggest that A massively downscales.

Current profiles aren’t an argument, they will be changed. Next.

Show me a scan of this. I want to see proof of it happening.

Based on what?

Your point is incorrect and the analogy doesn’t entirely fit, but sure. Doesn’t change that Kakashi didn’t harm Sasuke at all.

How is he supposed to be more careful against a surprise attack he didn’t expect

It’s almost like Tobirama said he and the other Hokage were revived near full power-

Proof?

You’ve got to be joking. I think it’s pretty damn clear that, on this site, we consider the Viz translation to be the official one. As such, that is the translation you have to use.

No, it cannot. You cannot extrapolate the word accomplished to mean stronger. In fact, if you look up the definition of accomplished, all of the definitions given point to, guess what, skill and training, not strength.

I could point out how insanely ironic this is coming from you, but it’d be mean so I won’t.

Eh ig that's fine, doesn't make too much of a difference I just thought that'd make more sense.

The only version of FKS Sasuke that we know 100% scales above Orochimaru is Skeletal Susanoo Sasuke. RS Sasuke is likely, and saying Base MS Sasuke surpassed him is kind of a lowball. Anything lower than that is reverse wank. And Blind Sasuke is definitely weaker than Oro since FKS Sasuke only scales above CS2 Sasuke with 3T, and Oro>CS2 Sasuke. Either way Oro would scale above Base Naruto who scales above Jiraiya who scales above himself. So Naruto being poisoned or Sasuke getting massive hatred amps are the only way it makes sense. Make your choice.

I know, but the reason his AP scales above Itachi is ninjutsu, not taijutsu, so that should also be mentioned as a striking strength justification maybe.

I mentioned the Killer Bee statement and where it is already.

I again don't have access to the viz translation, but this statement basically says the same thing as it

The difference is that Sasuke was caught offguard by Ay withstanding his attack, and his hand seemed to be stuck too. Whereas the time Sasuke tagged Ay, they were both moving full speed, Sasuke just reacted and struck faster. Either way, regardless of whether it's a blitz or not, his combat and reaction speed was higher than V1 Ay and his movement speed was similar, meaning he's also faster than KCM Naruto, letalone with the MS.

I agree they didn't.

The durability/strength of its individual arms aren't that high anyways, it's when they're working together or when he uses his elemental attacks that it's truly powerful. It's like (actually exactly like because it's the same jutsu but downgraded) how the Shinsuu Senju's individual arms aren't Small Country level, but together they are. Considering the jutsu is True Several Hundred Hands, even if its individual arms were only 7-B, with even just 100 the overall jutsu would be High 7-A+ (3.3 Gigatons) Also check again, Ay did get smacked in the first panel

Plus it wasn't an all out attack cause when these fists do ram with full force, they break

So again, Guruguru Yamato is At least High 7-A+

Sure, what about Orochimaru beating Jiraiya offscreen? That's justification for Jiraiya being relative but slightly weaker than 2nd war Orochimaru currently.

Statements are valid in absence of feats.

Common sense. If Sasuke while injured and fatigued and without a Rinnegan can still count as 5-C, then Kage after being pretty much fully healed can scale basically identically to their normal selves. Characters after fully recovering from damage have mild scratches from previous battles all the time.

How often do blows that are blocked between relative characters visibly injure them? Besides, look closely, Sasuke doesn't look that comfortable

You're making my arguments for me. Considering it was a surprise attack, the duck was an instinctive reaction more than anything, and shouldn't be used for scaling Tobirama's AP.

Bruh pick one. The reason Madara had the upperhand was because Tobirama was an Edo and that means Alive Tobirama could damage him or not. Those two statements don't both favor your argument.

That's how talent works. Definition: "natural aptitude or skill." Key word: natural, meaning it's just something he's born with.

Still does not mean the translations I showed are fan translations as you claimed. And no it wasn't clear, I just assumed since that's the most popular version everyone ended up using it.

Most accomplished would imply he's accomplished more than everyone on the team, and considering Tobirama is the literal Hokage, that can't be political or other such accomplishments, they must be combat related (which makes sense since his statement was about his ability to battle the Kinkaku force), which would make him scale above Tobirama anyways.

Bruh you've been pretty rude at times anyways.

Spoiler: Slaying these arguments

Spoiler: Why are we still here?

........

I could say the same, but enough of the banter lol. Let's let our arguments do the talking, and then the mods will decide which stance is more acceptable in the end.



He's 7-B because he doesn't scale to any High 7-A feats. It's not like I'm artificially capping him at 7-B just because. The fact of the matter is that Minato has no good AP feats on-screen, so we're stuck with statement based scaling for him, and as you know statements can potentially have multiple interpretations and/or be contradicted by other statements, which I believe is the case here.
Uhhh, no, the statement about base Naruto was referring specifically to the power of the Rasenshuriken, no speed was involved there.
And if you're talking about SM Naruto, I don't see how Fukasaku's statement means he'd win in a fight. That's not how such things work necessarily. For instance, Sasuke was stronger than Itachi physically, but still wouldn't have beaten him in a fight if he was willing to kill Sasuke. (Even if you disagree, just go along with it lol, it's just an example to show that AP isn't everything).

No, the statement specifically mentions power. You can dance around that fact all you want, but it won't change it.

And I'm saying that you need to prove it was retconned, which you can't because most of the evidence you've brought up is mostly not even AP based or flimsy at best.

It's not irrelevant because amping someone who's power is Unknown at the time by an unknown amount is.......well, unknown. BZ Obito's 5-C feats are mainly after he absorbed Bijuu chakra from Madara, and blocking an Enton Arrow wouldn't put him above Rinnegan Madara because Madara is High 6-C while Sasuke is High 7-A+.

Which is irrelevant for determining Minato's AP either way.

He had the upper hand because of his reaction speed and FTG. The only AP feat in that altercation is him cutting Bee's tentacle, which once again has Unknown durability because that version of B is featless.
The face value interpretation is that they respect each other, which we already know.

1. And yet, he didn't in the only encounter we saw, so this is irrelevant.
2. No, it's not. You were already debunked on this point in your CRT, just stop it lol.

He was compared to Minato in speed, because Guy said in the previous panel "so fast!". Like most Minato statements, the context is clearly for speed.

No, it's way too vague for that to mean anything substantial. Unparalleled compared to who? Statements like that are useless NLF trash without further context.

Do you have proof that Ay was stronger in the war? After losing his dominant arm?

They were fake Rinnegan and disintegrated literally a second later, I don't see how they'd offer any substantial amps at that point.

That was literally hours later when both were completely exhausted, we do not know what happened in between.

Huh? What is this? Madara's regeneration was never shown to be weaker, and he was never implied to be weaker. This is headcanon.

And that hypothetical version of Sick Itachi was never seen, except in Part I maybe, so this doesn't matter and doesn't change anything about what I said.

Yeah, I remember the thing about the poison.

It's still completely unquantifiable. You be "stronger" by 1.001x or 1000x, you would be stronger either way.

It already does.


He wasn't scared of him.......
They didn't get to fight (because Sasuke ran away). You can't just assume Sasuke would've been stronger for no reason.

Uhh, yeah, it did. The Raikage would've been dead if not for being an Edo Tensei due to how the Rasenshuriken works. And the same goes for..............uhhhh, don't you mean Tsuchikage (Muu) actually? I don't think Naruto fought Gengetsu. But anyway, yeah, Muu would've been dead with the wounds Naruto gave him if he were alive.

None of this matters until you prove that the statue is High 7-A+.

Here. They wouldn't be significantly weaker because they can still keep up with and harm the same Kage who scale to the original. Plus, wood clones are stated to have superior durability to shadow clones, so it would somewhat scale to the original in both AP and dura. Plus, they're also stated to be harder to distinguish from the original, without powerful Dojutsu, which would be strange if they were significantly weaker.

Then it doesn't matter. Him downscaling isn't worth mentioning because he already has more concrete feats to scale to. Plus, it would lead to circular scaling because Kin and Gin already scale to Darui on their profiles.

I guess? V2 would upscale V1, which scales to Ay who scales to KCM who scales to KN6, so yeah, you're right.

It really isn't Bijuu Mode lmao. Like we said a billion times, it's nowhere near as large as the real body of Gyuuki, and we have no statements confirming it as such.

Yeah, I meant her BM key.

You can request it on the calc request thread, but lemme tell you right now, it's not going above 7-B. I can guarantee it.

Darui scaling? Yeah, because it'd be circular since Darui already scales from him.

Sure.
How about "higher with Shields (Somewhat withstood the force of V1 A's punch, though A easily punched through his arm and chest soon after)"?

It is, but it doesn't change the fact that he was stronger than before with less bodies and/or when he was closer to Nagato.

This isn't how it works. Rinnegan Obito wasn't stronger than SM Rinnegan Madara, so a weaker version of him with an inferior amp wouldn't make him stronger. The logic of Obito scaling to Madara in general is asinine, and I didn't even wanna include it, but Tracer didn't want to ignore feats. But logically speaking it makes zero sense, and I won't accept Obito backscaling from it.

Thanks I guess? lol

Another statement that's clearly referring to him in his prime. Old Hiruzen literally cannot be the strongest Hokage because he was matched by heavily nerfed Tobirama and Hashirama.

You're confusing Prime Hiruzen for the Hiruzen that Orochimaru was referring to 10 years ago. That version of Hiruzen would still be old, and not in his prime, just vaguely stronger than he is currently.

Well I have a feeling I know who they're gonna pick considering the staff has already seemed to have made up their mind on the scaling.

Minato does have many statements and implications putting him higher than 7-B though, more than he does for 7-B. The 7-B comparisons were just more narratively important so ppl tend to take it as the be all end all. Anyways blasting off the arm of a Zetsu cells enhanced Obito is pretty impressive.

I meant the SM Naruto one. And I agree AP isn't everything. I'd say generally speed is more important which the site seems to agree with given the allowance for speed equalization and not AP equalization. Which is exactly why Base Naruto OVERALL surpassing Minato is likely a holistic statement (Fukasaku made no direct mention to AP after all), so he'd scale in speed too. Base Naruto>KCM Naruto confirmed.

The manga statement directly mentions power, but Kakashi's statement does not. Also display of power can be argued as a visual thing, AKA Naruto's Rasenshuriken scale is similar to the scale of one of Minato's attacks, not that the AP is the same. AKA DC. If you say Minato has no jutsu besides the small scale ones he's shown, that's actually incorrect.

Apparently Minato had a jutsu like the Rasenshuriken, so maybe that's all the statement means (do I fully belive in this argument? Eh, not fully although for something I came up with on the fly it actually sorta makes sense. But hey, if ppl here won't accept the retcon argument I'll just have to make due).

Minato's statement as an Edo is very strong implication, and good enough implications are accepted as with Minato>Hiruzen.

If BZ Obito w/SPC = 950 and Juubidara = 1000, and Pre-Juubi Madara = 200, then it's most likely with a far smaller buff removed, Obito would be at least relative to Rinnegan SM Madara.

Also, even if he was only High 7-A+, that'd still upscale Minato.

If his shiver isn't from the coincidence, then it's most likely fear, which would be because of Minato's power.

It would at least scale above his Base durability, that's for sure.

Is Bee respecting Minato known? I don't recall that ever being stated. Besides, why would they respect him if his power was that of a cockroach compared to them? And why would they have never won? All they would have needed to do was both go V2 then dash around destroying all the kunais and ignoring any attempt Minato made to stop them because his attacks just bounced off their skins then when they were all gone, they could go down to V1 and let Minato come to them, and when he stabbed through slightly, he'd be stuck, and they could one shot him. This is just one specific scenario, but there's plenty like that where they'd absolutely mop him if his power was really so pathetic. Think about it like this. With the profiles as they are now, either Ay or Bee vs Minato would be a shitstomp with 7-0 in terms of arguments taking the profiles into account. And I realize this is all sort of an appeal to emotion, but I genuinely don't believe there's a chance Kishimoto intended Ay and Cloaked Bee to be undamageable by MInato.

1. They fought many times, he obviously pulled it out at some point.
2. I wasn't debunked, the thread was closed prematurely. Besides, I'm not arguing the tail is Bijuu level now, just that it's above V2 level.

That's a likely interpretation. I'm just saying there's a non-zero chance it's also related to AP, especially as it's consistent with other Bijuu level scaling for Minato.

Jiraiya said everyone paled in comparison to Minato. You could take that as hyperbole, but it is supporting evidence for High 7-A+ Minato, and at the very least that statement likely extends to Jiraiya himself.

His feats are better.

It makes much more sense for them to have been amping him until he lost them, as him being several to possibly more than 10x stronger than Edo Madara is severely inconsistent with all the statements about Edos being almost as strong. This also included Hashirama as Tobirama said THEY were nearly brought back at full power, and Edo Madara stalemated Edo Hashirama. Unless Edo Hashirama is also far weaker than his Alive self and that statement is full of shit, then ADR Madara is the one who broke out of the Deity Gates.

Sure, but it implies they fought in cqc, and it's in line with this statement

I'm saying the battle was so intense he was using chakra up faster than it was regenerating. We know Edos take at least some time to regain chakra, given that Minato couldnt use FTG after being drained by the god tree.

I'm saying that version of Sick Itachi would scale above Obito given the statements.

Yeah, so why game>novel?

It was stated to be a rapid increase though, especially because of how major an amp killing his whole clan would be. It's most likely a large difference, and it's unquantifiable, so I don't think Shisui downscaling makes much sense.

It doesn't include the statements I sent.

Idk he seemed pretty concerned

Plus the fact that it no diff tanked all their attacks further implies Gaara was weaker than it substantially.

I mean them being Edo didn't stop them from getting sealed. Also I'm not saying Kimimaro and Chiyo should be High 7-A, just that their fight with KCM Naruto should be mentioned to some extent on their profile.

Sure. Even if you only say base Ay is 9.93 megatons (which doesn't make much sense since Ay~One Guruguru hand~>Yamato's Mokuton~4T Naruto>>>>Base Naruto~9.33 Gigatons), since it's the Several Hundred Hands statue, and several means 3 or more, 9.93 megatons x 300 = 2.979 Gigatons = High 7-A+.

Is that V2? His hair looks raised but then later he said he'd up his speed and thus the power to break Madara's guard.

sure

That makes 7-B Minato even more absurd. How is a partial transformation weaker than a small amount of globby chakra of the Bijuu? There are at least arguments for V2>PT even if shaky, but there's literally nothing to suggest V1 is stronger than this.

V1 is: not very focused/concentrated, much smaller, in a less complete state, has worse feats, doesn't have any statements or implications to suggest it being superior, etc.

I thought WA Bijuu are considered stronger?

Eh maybe I won't if you're so certain.

Sure

That works

True, just seems weird for that to be in his AP justification

Who says it's an inferior amp? Seems like headcanon. It's actually a huge amp given that it allowed BZ Obito to fight KCM2 Minato and Kakashi which Obito by himself probably wouldn't be able to do (I mean if you ask me Base Minato would solo, but even with a normie mindset I think KCM2 Minato>Rinnegan Obito isn't a very hot take), especially while weakened.

Plus Obito even without SPC tagging Juubidara (even if offguard) contributes to the idea that he's at least relative to Rinnegan SM Madara.

Again, what can I say except You're Welcome?

I'm saying if Kabuto was talking about Prime Hiruzen, he would've said, "We took him him on fully knowing his reputation as the strongest Hokage."

Since Orochimaru knows 59 yr old Hiruzen is stronger than him Prime Hiruzen would be even worse, so it wouldn't make sense for Kabuto to refer to Hiruzen's prime strength. Because they didn't take him on with his prime strength in mind, they took him on with his old age in mind.

Also I realized I didn't respond to your reply about Ay's statement regarding Minato. There are multiple published translations, so idk about official but I know now the site only accepts viz for some reason. Anyways, even the viz translation is still referring to strength. It's just less clear. Because Ay saying Minato is the finest shinobi directly pits Minato above every other ninja Ay knows in power, as power is what he values first and foremost in a shinobi

Plus a statement following this proves Ay was talking about power.

"A noble man. A finer shinobi never lived...But even so, with all his power, why do you think he is not here today to help stop this crisis?" Him talking about Minato's character is unrelated to him saying a finer shinobi never lived.

Also this isn't that important but in Generations a tiny fragment of Minato's chakra was able to casually catch Naruto's punch (you could say them in his head doesn't matter or Naruto wasn't going all out but you know just a little extra)

Also if you're massively inferior to someone, you can't trap them with RDS, yet Minato was able to seal Kurama, and it wasn't even that hard.

You could use this for Tier 6 scaling, but I'll just say for now that a 7-B would not be able to replicate this feat.

So yeah, I repeat. Minato =/= 7-B, not in a million years.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

you guys are arguing two different things, in practice Taijutsu uses everything, speed, strength, weight ect

but the Databook separates it because it's solely talking about skill.

that's because someone like Rock lee from part 1 could be more skilled in Taijutsu than Sakura from Part 2 while still being weaker.

 

[KingTempest]

I'm comparing what Taijutsu really is to what you are saying. Is Taijutsu based on skill? Yes. Is Taijutsu based only in skill? It sure isn't. The fact that you have a type of Taijutsu that relies on speed and strength debunks the idea of Taijutsu being only skill. Hell even Neji need the speed necessary to hit his targets before they react and block.

If someone says "you have better taijutsu", they're not saying "you're physically stronger". That's the main point I was trying to counter.

Having better strength and speed can make your taijutsu more effective sure, but the basis of taijutsu is skill. Kid Lee has better taijutsu than BOS Base Naruto, guess who's stronger and faster?

For the strong fist style you're bringing up, you used statements of better strength and speed which is a false equivalence. "Skill" with the Strong Fist style is strength and speed.

Which is based on high speed movements. The accuracy is the basis of its power. Most, if not all all Hyuga techniques are high speed based.

You missed the sentence before where it talks about the byakugan being able to see the tenketsu which ends up providing better accuracy to his attacks?

Taijutsu is literally every physical attack. You can have Taijutsu without skill, hell even the Bijuus like kokuo have Taijutsu, he literally attacks with a horn or something like that, with great strength.

This means they have strong taijutsu with no skill, or rather strong yet ass taijutsu. A belly flop is strong, yet ass, taijutsu.

Taijutsu isn't the fancy movements we see and enjoy, Taijutsu can be a punch, a kick, using a weapon, rushing towards your enemy. You can have taijutsu without skill, aka, without the fancy movements we see. But you can't have taijutsu without speed and strength.

You can't have movements without speed and strength, that doesn't make better movements = better speed and strength

I understand what you're saying, but you're trying to define taijutsu by speed and strength, which is false.
Taijutsu needing strength and speed doesn't mean that taijutsu is strength and speed.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I'll give you some minutes to reread what I wrote. Because you sure as **** didn't.

 

[KingTempest]

They split up how much you know in taijutsu and how good you are in taijutsu vs how strong and fast your are.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[QUOTE="M3X, post: 4197701, member: 9371"]
I'll give you some minutes to reread what I wrote. Because you sure as **** didn't.
[/QUOTE]
I did for sure. Read the bottom portion.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@GokuSparkle can you please spoiler your texts? I gotta scroll down half the page just to get past your walls of text.

 

[KingTempest]

This point doesn't even affect anything, we can take it to a wall or discord or something

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Tell me when you're finished @GokuSparkle. I'll reply when I can.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

This point doesn't even affect anything, we can take it to a wall or discord or something

Yes, please do. Don't mean anything by this guys, but it's practically derailment lol.

 

[PrinceofPein]

@GokuSparkle what do you mean by sasuke is faster than kcm naruto?
Idg
Ms sasuke <~ V1 Ay <<<< V2 Ay <<<< Kcm Naruto.
Its not that hard

 

[KingTempest]

Just read above.

#1 this is an AP thread so idk what yall are talking about.

#2 Sasuke dodging V1 Ay's combat speed wouldn't scale him to his V2 travel speed with Shunshin, which he used against Naruto.
The moment he used the speed he used against Naruto at Sasuke, he got blitzed badly

 

[LordTracer]

Spoiler

The only version of FKS Sasuke that we know 100% scales above Orochimaru is Skeletal Susanoo Sasuke. RS Sasuke is likely, and saying Base MS Sasuke surpassed him is kind of a lowball. Anything lower than that is reverse wank. And Blind Sasuke is definitely weaker than Oro since FKS Sasuke only scales above CS2 Sasuke with 3T, and Oro>CS2 Sasuke. Either way Oro would scale above Base Naruto who scales above Jiraiya who scales above himself. So Naruto being poisoned or Sasuke getting massive hatred amps are the only way it makes sense. Make your choice.

Those are not the only ways it makes sense, those are the only ways it makes sense if your interpretation is correct, and you have not proven it as such. Your claim of blind Sasuke being weaker than Orochimaru is entirely headcanon, Sharingan Sasuke being stronger than CS2 does not mean he can’t also be stronger while blind.

I know, but the reason his AP scales above Itachi is ninjutsu, not taijutsu, so that should also be mentioned as a striking strength justification maybe.

It already is-

I mentioned the Killer Bee statement and where it is already.

You did not, you basically told me to go find it lmao. If you want to prove this point, you need to go get the scan. If you’re incapable of doing so, that’s basically a concession.

I again don't have access to the viz translation, but this statement basically says the same thing as it

Then give me the chapter.

The durability/strength of its individual arms aren't that high anyways, it's when they're working together or when he uses his elemental attacks that it's truly powerful.

And your proof of this is…?

Considering the jutsu is True Several Hundred Hands, even if its individual arms were only 7-B, with even just 100 the overall jutsu would be High 7-A+ (3.3 Gigatons

First of all, Hashirama’s jutsu is True Several Thousand Hands. Second of all, Guruguru’s is not the same thing, his is just the Top Transformed Buddha.

Also check again, Ay did get smacked in the first panel

No, he didn’t. These two pages (662) happen back to back and nothing ever actually hits A. And even if it did, A gets up right after, so it clearly didn’t do that much damage. So again, there is no proof that the statue is massively more powerful than base A.

Plus it wasn't an all out attack cause when these fists do ram with full force, they break

The fist never made impact, A slashed out its wrist, so it not being all-out is (like a lot of these arguments) your headcanon.

The difference is that Sasuke was caught offguard by Ay withstanding his attack, and his hand seemed to be stuck too. Whereas the time Sasuke tagged Ay, they were both moving full speed, Sasuke just reacted and struck faster. Either way, regardless of whether it's a blitz or not, his combat and reaction speed was higher than V1 Ay and his movement speed was similar, meaning he's also faster than KCM Naruto, letalone with the MS.

And your proof of either of this are…? Hell, A started talking after Sasuke poked him, giving him ample time to react. He was not off-guard. And Sasuke having reaction speed on the level of A does not prove that A got stronger during the War Arc at all. And dodging is reactions, as the Reactions page states: “Reaction speed is defined as a single movement in a defined timeframe, which a character has been shown capable of.” Sasuke ducking under A’s arm is a single movement.

So again, Guruguru Yamato is At least High 7-A+

No, he is not, you have not provided anything that proves that he is.

Sure, what about Orochimaru beating Jiraiya offscreen? That's justification for Jiraiya being relative but slightly weaker than 2nd war Orochimaru currently.

I would have absolutely no issues with removing that, so…

Statements are valid in absence of feats.

Context?

Common sense. If Sasuke while injured and fatigued and without a Rinnegan can still count as 5-C, then Kage after being pretty much fully healed can scale basically identically to their normal selves. Characters after fully recovering from damage have mild scratches from previous battles all the time.

Once again basing your argument on the current profiles that are going to be changed, invalid.

How often do blows that are blocked between relative characters visibly injure them? Besides, look closely, Sasuke doesn't look that comfortable

”look closely” his face is obscured by both of his hands, is this really what you want to be basing your argument on? And Sasuke received literally no injuries from Kakashi punching him, he looked exactly the same as he did beforehand.

You're making my arguments for me. Considering it was a surprise attack, the duck was an instinctive reaction more than anything, and shouldn't be used for scaling Tobirama's AP.

Prove. It. You constantly make claims of “oh this character wasn’t going all-out,” “oh this character did this because of this,” but you do not provide evidence to support these claims. It is your headcanon.

Bruh pick one. The reason Madara had the upperhand was because Tobirama was an Edo and that means Alive Tobirama could damage him or not. Those two statements don't both favor your argument.

I’m gonna let you re-read what I said, because you clearly didn’t understand what I meant.

That's how talent works. Definition: "natural aptitude or skill." Key word: natural, meaning it's just something he's born with.

Talent

• A special often athletic, creative, or artistic aptitude.
• General intelligence or mental power : ABILITY

There’s more than one definition here, bud. Also talent doesn’t mean strength so it doesn’t matter anyways.

Most accomplished would imply he's accomplished more than everyone on the team, and considering Tobirama is the literal Hokage, that can't be political or other such accomplishments, they must be combat related (which makes sense since his statement was about his ability to battle the Kinkaku force), which would make him scale above Tobirama anyways.

No, it would not. Once again, you’re making wild assumptions and extrapolations based on literally nothing. Accomplishing more combat things does not mean he’s stronger. Once again, a wild and unsupported assumption.

Occam’s Razor points towards his claim of being the most accomplished meaning exactly that: that he’s the most accomplished. Not that he’s stronger.

 

[LordTracer]

#1 this is an AP thread so idk what yall are talking about.

He’s trying to argue that A got stronger in the War Arc because he was “slower” than Sasuke at the Gokage Summit but comparable to KCM in speed or something like that.