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Are you saying that someone you thought was an ally can't suprise you by suddenly attacking you?
Choose one, Anime or Manga
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See, we told you we were working on it! (Naruto Revision Part 1: Scaling)
- Thread starter LordTracer
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MinatoSparkle
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MinatoSparkle
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Were they allies at that point or did Orochimaru disguise as Rasa from the start to forge an alliance?
I don't remember where it was tbh
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There’s literally no context to Orochimaru killing Rasa in the manga lol, we just know that he did.
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I was talking abou Jiraiya mostly. Prime Orochimaru already scales above CS2 Sasuke, same as FKS Sasuke. But he definitely does not scale to the Susano'o.Idk about that one.
It's stated FKS Sasuke (cause that's the last one Suigetsu saw, with the Skeletal Susanoo) had JUST surpassed Orochimaru, likely meaning Sasuke is stronger than Ribcage Susanoo FKS Sasuke or at the very least Early FKS Sasuke.
Only Lifting Strength feats, which have already been calced.
Extending the range of his Rasengan and making his Rasengan variants without clones is neat, but I wouldn't call it insane.
Maybe, maybe not. We have no real info on this beyond the fact that more tails mean more power for each individual Bijū cloak (ex: B is stronger with an 8-Tailed cloak than a 6-Tailed one), but beyond that we have nothing concrete really.
Nothing tier 6 either, please. The max for this CRT is High 7-A+. If your arguments are entirely reliant on tier 6 scaling, I'd suggest saving it for the tier 6/Bijuu thread.
Rasa himself is completely featless physically. Orochimaru blitzing or one-shotting him is completely worthless.
Only his Gold Dust is worth anything.
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Even in the War Arc, Rasa doesn't have any noteworthy feats other than with the Gold Sand
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All of the Kazekage are like that tbh. Gaara had some feats in Part I, but in Part 2 he's damn near featless without his sand as well.
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Well at least his body is durable enough to survive Deidara's tiny spider bombs... Oh wait, Sand Armor
MinatoSparkle
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mk
I mean Jiraiya does scale to Orochimaru. And I don't think it's outlandish to say he scales to the Ribcage Susanoo.
Didn't he resist the bite of Son Goku? Pretty sure that's AP too since he's blocking an attack.
Eh, sure ig.
True.
Not ENTIRELY. I'll just bring up my High 7-A/7-A+ arguments then save the rest for later.
His reaction speed is high tho.
It's all a metaphor for real life, everything's about money.
Did he have his sand armor on then? I don't recall that being stated.Well at least his body is durable enough to survive Deidara's tiny spider bombs... Oh wait, Sand Armor
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Only via one statement in the first databook, but yeah sure. We scale him to him anyway lol. I was just venting about Jiraiya's lack of, like, actual feats lol.
It is without direct proof.
That's LS.
Good. Looking forward to see what you've got cooked up then.
Ultimately irrelevant when we have zero context about how he was killed, or any details about their potential "fight".
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Unless Gaara is wearing really Thick Makeup or is an Edo Tensei that's Sand Armor.
MinatoSparkle
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Well, I actually found a site that has a collection of a WHOLE bunch of evidence for it, twas pretty cool.Only via one statement in the first databook, but yeah sure. We scale him to him anyway lol. I was just venting about Jiraiya's lack of, like, actual feats lol.
It is without direct proof.
That's LS.
Good. Looking forward to see what you've got cooked up then.
Ultimately irrelevant when we have zero context about how he was killed, or any details about their potential "fight".
The Suigetsu statement about Skeletal Susanoo Sasuke.
But...how tho? I mean I get how, but how is that any different from blocking a sword strike with your hand or something? And it should definitely count as a durability feat since Son Goku's teeth were partially biting on his shoulders.
Yeah, although it probably won't get cooked up until tmrw.
Sure.
Bruh, didn't you hear about the latest fashion trends in the Sand? Smh smh
Unless Gaara is wearing really Thick Makeup or is an Edo Tensei that's Sand Armor.
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Since Part I I guess
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Nice. Doesn't change anything about my rant though lol. 'Twas for a different reason.
It wasn't though? I saw no mention of the Susano'o.
And it would be extremely inconsistent with Deathbed Itachi's Susano'o fodderizing Orochimaru's strongest form.
Unless we say Deathbed Itachi is stronger than FKS Sasuke, this wouldn't really make much sense. Even as a MASSIVE Itachi fan, that's just not something I can get behind lol.
I'm not a science expert lol, idk.
But in any case, if there is AP involved, it'll almost certainly get treated as an outlier because the V1 and V2 Jinchūriki are capable of hurting KCM Naruto, so unless Bijū Mode nerfs them or something, this wouldn't really work.
No, not really. At any point after the initial impact the feat becomes entirely Lifting Strength based, of that I am certain.
But anyway, please lol, no more Bijū shenanigans here.
Fair enough.
MinatoSparkle
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True. I mean, he did body Konan ig?
Because Suigetsu only said Sasuke surpassed him just now when he last he saw Sasuke had the Skeletal Susanoo, that would imply Orochimaru was superior to his previous incarnation with the Ribcage Susanoo.
Hydra Orochimaru is DEFINITELY stronger than the Ribcage Susanoo. It was stated stronger than Manda who's Bijuu level.
Deathbed Itachi's Armored Susanoo w/the Totsuka Blade and Yata Mirror>>>FKS Sasuke's baby Ribcage Susanoo
Tbh numeric values aside I don't really think V2 Jinchuriki are that far apart from their Bijuu in strength. Plus, Naruto was struggling incredibly hard, much more than he did against the V2 Jins.
k
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Kiiiiiiinda? Issue is that Konan herself is featless without explosive tags, and Jiraiya didn't reaaaaally contend with those. He just kinda spewed oil on her lol.
OR............
Suigetsu is referring to FKS Sasuke as a whole surpassing Orochimaru, which would certainly be consistent with there only being evidence of Orochimaru being stronger than CS2 Sasuke.
There's no real reason to pick and choose between versions of the Susano'o without there being any evidence for it.
Maybe, maybe not. It all depends on how the upcoming Bijū revisions go.
On a personal level, I agree with the difference not being that large. Heck, I'd even go as far to say that I don't believe there's huge gaps between many groups of characters in general, barring a few notable exceptions.
But alas, due to the large numerical gaps between calc values, we kinda have to adapt and deal with it using the system in place.
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He tied her up with his hair… and she has Unknown physicals so that’s basically worthless.
MinatoSparkle
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Uh...this exists I guess??
I mean, I guess that's fair enough, the RS interpretation sits better with me but I suppose I can't prove it.
Lol sry
I mean even without the Bijuu scaling it's kinda just common sense that an exponentially more advanced version of the Susanoo would be stronger.
In terms of AP maybe, although characters do get blitz tiers faster quite a bit as I've discovered over my months of Quora scaling/debating.
Yeah (big oof that Juubito is more than 50x stronger than BSM Naruto and SEMS Sasuke).
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Hmmm, this is actually a pretty neat find. Thanks.
Uh...this exists I guess??
So I guess Konan's dura scales to Jiraiya's Katon?
Fair is fair.
WRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
That would be the case if the characters in question are equal, but Sasuke is far stronger than Deathbed Itachi. Like....
FKS Sasuke's ribcage >> Base FKS Sasuke > CS2 Sasuke > CS1.5 Sasuke > Pre-Kirin Itachi > Deathbed Itachi.
It's quite a big scaling chain, with a lot of wiggle room tbf.
Without the Bijū scaling, I'm not so confident about Itachi being stronger.
Hehehe, ahh well lol
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Sorry but what?
MinatoSparkle
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Ye
Ye
Ye
Ehhhhhhhhhhhh. Idk about that one. Itachi was stated to be holding back the entire time. Plus the scaling chain probably isn't enough to make up for the gargantuan difference between a Ribcage and Armored Susanoo.
Plus Itachi does have some statements pitting him above OM Obito who's way stronger than FKS Sasuke. And the fact that Kid Itachi bitched Orochimaru who's a relative to FKS Sasuke again shows Itachi's superiority.
Cause of this
Also I'm prolly sleeping now, so likely won't be responding anymore for a while
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Isn't this like... 1000% referring to the evil nature of the curse mark which makes the user ridiculously hostile with a dark personality?Cause of this
Like wasn't this implied to be Sasuke's curse of hatred taking over?
Not his AP being higher?
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I don’t see how it being thicker relates to him being evil tbh. Also
Sharingan Taka Sasuke > Blind Taka Sasuke ≈ Post-Pain Arc Naruto > Jiraiya ≈ Orochimaru > CS2 Sasuke
MinatoSparkle
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Well I mean the curse of hatred does make you stronger. Plus what Tracer said.
You could argue the hatred amps Sasuke got were stronger than the buff from the Sharingan at the early FKS.
Ok that's my actual last post
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Technically the raws say 濃い which can be interpreted as either thicker or darker, which is more consistent with the several statements from Karin about Sasuke's chakra via the curse of hatred
Wouldn't this make Orochimaru > Sharingan Taka Sasuke?Idk about that one.
It's stated FKS Sasuke (cause that's the last one Suigetsu saw, with the Skeletal Susanoo) had JUST surpassed Orochimaru, likely meaning Sasuke is stronger than Ribcage Susanoo FKS Sasuke or at the very least Early FKS Sasuke.
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If there’s multiple interpretations, wouldn’t we go with the one in the official translation?
There’s only like a handful of people at Sannin level smh
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Also, it can be denser and not have the same volume. Sasuke lost a lot of his chakra reserves via losing the Cursed Mark's Senjutsu Chakra, so even if it was denser, if it has less volume, it'd be hard to compare it
Base Naruto
Non Full Power Pain
Base Taka Sasuke
Everybody who scales to/above them
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I agree, but it’s what we’ve have
There’s honestly not that many people that legit scale to Post-Pain Arc Nardo and Taka Sauce-kun, only one I can think of off the top of my head is Danzō. A lot of the Sannin tier people either scale to the Sannin themselves (i.e. Hiruzen, A, Minato, etc.) or they scale to those people that scale off of the Sannin (i.e. Obito, Konan, etc.).
This is gonna be my last reply for tonight.
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Fair (pain)
Yeah I'm heading out too
Yeah I'm heading out too
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Ahhh food for thought
LordTracer/Sakuea
vsbattles.fandom.com
Everything outside of the comparable portion only supports City level ratings.
Naruto's tired and in base form when she says that, city level.
Orochimaru called Byakugo a new jutsu of Tsunade's. He's fought beside her for years, and knew her even after Hashirama did, yet he calls the Byakugo a new jutsu. This means that the Tsunade that Hashirama knows about is just the city level one and not the Large Mountain level+ one since he didn't know about that techniqiue.
How's she superior to Tsunade when a later databook scan you use in reference 6 says that she has the same strength as Tsunade? And since her Byakugo isn't active, wouldn't we assume "Base Sakura ~ Base Tsunade and Byakugo Sakura ~ Byakugo Tsunade"?
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Welp, guess this is gonna be the last thing before bed-
Okay if we’re being real, it’s kinda obviously an author insert statement done very poorly
Also she still wastes less chakra than Tsunade does since she doesn’t have to maintain a youthful appearance, so…
And no, 100H Sakura’s scaling lines up with Byakugō Tsunade, not base Tsunade.Hell, Byakugō Sakura could almost unironically be argued at Six Paths level
Why… exactly would he be referring to his base form and only his base form? Also when Team 7 is back to back, Sasuke tells Naruto not to drag them down, implying that Naruto is the weakest of the three.
Also she still wastes less chakra than Tsunade does since she doesn’t have to maintain a youthful appearance, so…
The justification literally says “might be greater,” not that she’s definitively superior smh smh
And no, 100H Sakura’s scaling lines up with Byakugō Tsunade, not base Tsunade.
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Just curious, but from this panel, Suigetsu states that 'we' (Taka) surpassed our mentors (Orochimaru). Does this mean that Taka (Suigetsu and Jugo) also got stronger in the War? Would they also get War Keys?
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This implication is definitely not the case. Sasuke doesn't know a thing Naruto can do except his tired rasenshurikens.
Or else I can easily say this picture is an implication of Tsunade's superiority.
This is irrelevant (sorry if that sounds rude).
Tsunade has more chakra than her. Sakura needs to waste more if she wants to get to her level. She has enough to spare. Heck, she almost drained Karin trying to get her regular reserves back.
Sakura with her mark and Kyubi chakra can't heal Shikamaru. Tsunade half dead after fighting for half a day + healing 4 other kage instantly heals Shikamaru easily.
Byakugo Sakura (w/out 100 Healings) is getting compared to a pre Byakugo inexperienced Tsunade. Regardless of the Hashi implications and shit age measuring, she's getting compared to that.
Sakura isn't as strong as Tsunade without chakra amps. That is a full blown fact.
But because of the "Jiraiya < Base Naruto" and "Orochimaru < Base Sasuke" stuff, and Tsunade's comparable to those guys (even though implications say much more), she's lower than sick Uchihas while Sakura's damn near Madara's level. Atp I'm starting to question if she's ever "surpassed Tsunade". Her best feat is 2 shotting a Juubi spawn (who everyone can hurt, even base tired Naruto) while Tsunade one shot a Wood Clone of Madara.
GokuSparkle brought a good scan so props for you on that. They did technically imply Orochimaru is stronger than Taka Sasuke.
I need to tackle the Jiraiya stuff next comment. Cause the Sannin being this low is scary. And I know it's unintentional, but I'll be devil's advocate against the current Sannin ratings. Especially the Hiruzen ratings of being comparable to Hidan. Gahlee.
Fair
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Are the only ones who can fight against the Sannin the Sannin themselves?”
Guys my word, this isn't Literal, it just means that the Sanin are good counters for one another because literally everything about the Sannin is based of the Japanese version of Rock, Paper Scissors, the frog eats the slug, the snake eats the frog, and the slug poisons the snake.
Orochimaru and Jiraiya are not Physical comparable to Tsunade like at all, the latter nearly crippled Jiraiya.
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Five Kage Summit
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Sakura absolutely Rivals Tsunade in strength with her Byakugo
Sakura fought in the war for much longer periods than Tsunade, healed dozens of people through the entire war, then went on to summon a giant Katsuyu and then spread Katsuyu across the battlefield to heal thousands of Shinobi, then healed base naruto, then healed Obito, then healed Kakashi, Then gave Obito enough Chakra to cross Kaguya's Dimension Twice, which has been told to us to be absolutely massively far from one another (this alone ***** on anything Tsunade has done) then still had enough chakra to act as Decoy for Madara and heal both Naruto and Sasuke from the brink of death at the valley of End.
You don't have to believe Sakura is>>> Tsunade, but Sakura is absolutely for a fact a peer to Tsunade in her later forms.
this is Irrelevant, we have multiple statements putting Sakura on the level of KCM who is significantly above his base form.
No, it doesn't like at all, the full context of this scene is that Shikamaru is brought back thanks to naruto and Tsunade finishes it off, this is the equivalent of two people filling up a glass with water near full and then the third person adds enough water to make sure the water reaches just before tipping point and then arguing the third person did all the work, if anything if we were to steelman this argument, it's not really a quantifiable feat for either Sakura or Tsunade as Naruto's chakra is doing the heavy lifting.
No, she absolutely doesn't
except for the fact that the manga outright tells us Sakura has more to spare thanks to not wanting to maintain appearances
this isn't a supporting feat for Tsunade.
This has nothing to with not being able to heal Shikamaru, it's about realizing that most of the Shinobi's chakra have been sapped along with Katsuyu's fragments and being unable to save literally everyone while your teammate is passively trying to heal everyone, Sakura is feeling inadequate and wants naruto to focus on the battle why do you think we can an establishing shot of every drained Shinobi on the battlefield and then a flashbackof Naruto saying we might as well go down fighting to the best of our abilities followed by This inner Monologue unless you want to argue that Shikamaru has a larger chakra pool than Both naruto and obito lol.
Tsunade fought for a few hours god bodied, healed the 5 Kage and then got her reserves back thanks to Karin.
Sakura fought in the war for much longer periods than Tsunade, healed dozens of people through the entire war, then went on to summon a giant Katsuyu and then spread Katsuyu across the battlefield to heal thousands of Shinobi, then healed base naruto, then healed Obito, then healed Kakashi, Then gave Obito enough Chakra to cross Kaguya's Dimension Twice, which has been told to us to be absolutely massively far from one another (this alone ***** on anything Tsunade has done) then still had enough chakra to act as Decoy for Madara and heal both Naruto and Sasuke from the brink of death at the valley of End.
No, because the Orochimaru statement you're referring to is talking about the creation of Rebirth not the strength of a hundred seal as seen here and here
this isn't relevant like at all, I don't think anyone is arguing that normal Sakura without amping herself is as naturally as powerful as Tsunade.
You don't have to believe Sakura is>>> Tsunade, but Sakura is absolutely for a fact a peer to Tsunade in her later forms.
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He was holding back in the sense that he wasn't actually trying to kill Sasuke. He let him break out of Tsukuyomi for example. But there's no indication that he was holding back physically, quite the opposite in fact. There would've been no real reason for him to get injured by the shuriken trick or have his Katon overpowered only to be forced into using Amaterasu to overpower Sasuke.
As for the difference between the armored and ribcage. I mean, we can assume it's large obviously, but it's not like we have anything concrete either tbh.
There are no such statements. If you're referring to the "Itachi's finally dead!!" stuff, I mean, it's probably just referring to Itachi's deal with Obito not to attack Konoha while he's alive.
And tbh, even if we say that Obito was scared shitless of Itachi, it was probably due to his abilities since he can't even hurt Obito physically due to Kamui.
Speaking of physicals, Obito has no good physical feats outside of kicking away Pre-Pain Naruto, blocking a sword swing from Suigetsu, and surviving a Rasengan from Minato, albeit with injuries.
The Minato thing is neat, but I think we can both agree that his AP feats areare very lacking, and definitely not above Sasuke's.
Yes, a much healthier Itachi. This wouldn't apply to Sick or Deathbed Itachi.
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