Kaguya's ETSO The Final Chapter: Part 1, Episode 2

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yes and the reason a discussion rule is being implemented is because people are getting tired of eating the same pie for the dozenth time. There's a point that gets reached where ramming your head into the same wall does nothing more than hurt your head.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

tell that to Alt

yeah this is exactly why i think the original one for Net is better. as he already said, "new arguments" is something that can be loopholed around easily. a slightly more conservative (admittedly) but far more failproof rule would just be the one in the OP; new threads created only if there's new info from manga, databooks, etc. this effectively puts an end to what we've seen in the past ~5 years with these arguments

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Essentially banning any future ETSO threads in any form (other than David's kind ofc) is an L

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Essentially banning any future ETSO threads in any form (other than David's kind ofc) is an L

except for Alt's too

i don't see why it's a problem when there's literally no new information, but hey if someone happens to have some radically new, never before seen argument, that all of us regular Naruto scalers somehow missed then we have a discussion thread for that where it can be discussed and posted.

 

[Samlex1234]

ETSO hits its max value off Kaguya pumping IT chakra into it for an unknown amount of time to continuously expand till it destroys the dimension.

Kaguya getting a piece of that IT chakra made her much stronger and faster than before.

Why would Base Kaguya’s punches and kicks or even regular ninjutsu scale to something she has to do overtime with a massive amount of outside chakra overtime, when her absorbing even a bit of it made her much stronger?

Base Kaguya ~ ETSO Max Potential > an unknown amount of time and a massive amount of chakra > IT Kaguya > Exponential AP and Speed Amp > Base Kaguya

It’s circular scaling and just doesnt make a lot of sense.

I can touch on why the Kurama amping the alliance thing doesn’t matter for IT chakra later if someone has or hasn’t brought it up yet I’m not sure.

Okay this is something I will tackle later, however now I understand your take.

Lets focus on Uzuhiko

Uzuhiko Rasengan

Energy Sources in Uzuhiko:


1. Boruto’s Chakra


Boruto’s personal chakra serves as the foundational energy input, powering the Rasengan on an individual level, in fact this is the primary source as stated in the Uzuhiko explanation

“A new form of Rasengan that utilizes not only one's own chakra”


2. Planetary Rotation and Orbit


The Rasengan also taps into the rotation and orbit of the planet, potentially drawing upon the massive kinetic energy that results from these cosmic motions.


3. Centrifugal Forces


Alongside planetary rotation and orbit, centrifugal forces are cited, which further amplify the Rasengan’s energy.

4. Other Forces (Unknown or Hypothetical)


Beyond the explicitly mentioned forces, Boruto may be able to incorporate energies not yet fully explored , such as gravitational binding energy (GBE) or even forces like dark matter.


Energy Interactions:

1. Boruto’s Chakra + Planetary Energy


The interaction between Boruto’s chakra and the planet’s energy is unlikely to be a simple additive equation (1+1). Instead, these forces could have a synergistic effect, where the combination produces a result much greater than the sum of its parts. This phenomenon is seen in other cases where multiple energy sources interact to create exponential effects.

Secondary Argument
2. Boruto’s Chakra + Planetary Energy + Other Unknown Forces

The potential inclusion of additional, unknown forces raises the question of whether Uzuhiko can absorb energy beyond just the planet’s rotation and orbit.

Limitless Energy Potential:

• “Never Runs Out”

A key argument in favor of Uzuhiko’s near-limitless potential is its ability to continuously absorb energy as long as the planet keeps spinning. Since planetary rotation is a constant and unending process, Boruto could theoretically keep drawing on this energy indefinitely.


This is further supported by Code’s experiencing psychological effects that never stops. Meaning the planet is constantly dealing damage to him internally

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

3. Centrifugal Forces
Alongside planetary rotation and orbit, centrifugal forces are cited, which further amplify the Rasengan’s energy.
4. Other Forces (Unknown or Hypothetical)
Beyond the explicitly mentioned forces, Boruto may be able to incorporate energies not yet fully explored , such as gravitational binding energy (GBE) or even forces like dark matter.

I feel like the other forces chakra statement was meant to deter from saying this is a cap to the verse but allow the planetary spin feats to be used regardless

 

[MinatoSparkle]

except for Alt's too

i don't see why it's a problem when there's literally no new information, but hey if someone happens to have some radically new, never before seen argument, that all of us regular Naruto scalers somehow missed then we have a discussion thread for that where it can be discussed and posted.

That's the whole point of what I suggested

 

[Samlex1234]

Also Otsutsuki absorbing Chakra from the planets have always been to amplify their own physicals, that's why Shibai ascended to a higher dimension so the default assumption should be IT Chakra goes into Kaguya who makes the ETSO instead of IT chakra's one portion going to her and the other part going to ETSO

This is the argument right here. Why are we acting like this is the first time Kaguya is absorbing IT charkra, in fact immediately she resurrected through madara, we saw that she was absorbing charkra from IT. There is no such thing as base Kaguya at least since she initially ate the chakra fruit.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

That's the whole point of what I suggested

yours is a lot more exploitable, we can create an "unspoken" rule to accommodate such a scenario anyway, and i don't think even the most conservative mods would close a thread immediately if the argument is actually extremely solid AND new which....if you haven't realized already, is nigh-impossible at this point, hence the rule

 

[MinatoSparkle]

yours is a lot more exploitable, we can create an "unspoken" rule to accommodate such a scenario anyway, and i don't think even the most conservative mods would close a thread immediately if the argument is actually extremely solid AND new which....if you haven't realized already, is nigh-impossible at this point, hence the rule

I'm apprehensive about unspoken rules cause they don't have to be abided by

 

[Ryzen7900X]

I'm apprehensive about unspoken rules cause they don't have to be abided by

i mean even a written discussion rule hasn't prevented a myriad of such CRTs in the past either so...

 

[MinatoSparkle]

i mean even a written discussion rule hasn't prevented a myriad of such CRTs in the past either so...

That's not really the same thing cause if the rule does exist, even if threads still get spammed, they can just be closed. Whereas if a rule is getting enforced, even against an unspoken rule, it's not like something can really be done about that

 

[Ryzen7900X]

That's not really the same thing cause if the rule does exist, even if threads still get spammed, they can just be closed. Whereas if a rule is getting enforced, even against an unspoken rule, it's not like something can really be done about that

which, to be honest, perfectly correlates with how unlikely any new, never-before-seen arguments with the same information we've known for over a decade are. and again, we have a discussion thread for stuff like that, any user can post the argument there and if its truly good enough i don't see why there can't be an exception for it. even at worst it prevents a preemptively posted repetitive thread

 

[MinatoSparkle]

which, to be honest, perfectly correlates with how unlikely any new, never-before-seen arguments with the same information we've known for over a decade are. and again, we have a discussion thread for stuff like that, any user can post the argument there and if its truly good enough i don't see why there can't be an exception for it. even at worst it prevents a preemptively posted repetitive thread

I don't think going back and forth over this is very useful as it kinda goes both ways (the "exception" is what the list of common arguments would be for), so we should just leave it to others to decide

 

[karo_senpaii]

Come on man it's not like people go about posting etso threads every week..

 

[Godernet]

Alright let's look at some of these comments,

I will address each argument individually. If any admin chooses to vote ‘yes’ without countering my points, I will escalate the matter to their superiors. This action is not based on bias but rather on their failure to respond to valid counterarguments.

This is my first argument to tackle the below

“The topic has been discussed many times over the years”

https://vsbattles.com/threads/revising-the-kaguya-etso-note-for-accuracy-and-updating.171615/


I created this thread several months ago because the existing discussion rule was fundamentally flawed. Here’s the rule in question:

That wasn't a discussion rule you changed; it was just a note on Kaguya's profile.

“The attempts to scale Kaguya to her Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball (ETSB) have been rejected many times. The primary reason is that this attack requires a chakra amount far greater than her own, and scaling her ordinary stats to it is inconsistent with her performance against Naruto and Sasuke, who each possess only half of Hagoromo’s chakra.”

It has recently been recognized that this rule has been incorrect for over four years. Just because a majority supports a claim does not make it true.

Except the Note wasn't incorrect, just worded poorly.

The CRT didn't even change the premise of the note just structured it differently.

Restructuring the verbiage used for an ETSO argument won't change the inherent issues of ETSO fully scaling to Shippuden Characters.

The notion that something is automatically valid due to popular acceptance is misguided. It’s unreasonable to dismiss critiques when the foundation of such rules is based on insufficient evidence, especially on a wiki that is widely regarded as a leading source for VS battles.

who said anything about popularity? kinda irrelevant I'm ngl

When foundational arguments are flawed, it’s natural for people to raise concerns and propose changes. The argument that just because something has been repeatedly discussed or accepted over time means it is valid is fundamentally flawed. I identified faults in the old scaling, which has now been debunked. This led me to create a CRT to challenge a rule that had persisted for over four years, demonstrating that longevity does not equate to correctness.

Identifying a flaw in how a note is articulated is a very far cry from "debunking any scaling" since nothing has changed because of the note change.

Nowhere near the same thing as a decade-long topic that has been explored in every possible avenue, that only looks less and less probable as time goes on.

Not to mention if an argument worth anything is presented, discussion rules can be removed.

This argument really doesn't address any of my initial concerns in the OP, in favor of "Because I found a flaw in an old note, that means ETSO threads should continue since that proves the information on the Wiki isn't infallible"

Which again, is kinda irrelevant to my topic which has nothing to do with the popular vote, staff, or anything of the sort.

 

[Godernet]

Uzihiko is stated to have incorporated boruto’s own chakra and stacks the damage of a normal rasengan + the planet stuff on the official Naruto website

Ok?

that doesn't really matter I'm ngl.

Uzuhiko is calced using what it was stated to be comprised of.

We also saw Boruto tag Hidari with a Rasengan that did much less damage than a nerfed Uzuhiko

Which at a bare minimum means the Planet's Chakra, when not even used at Maximum Output, a 5-B jutsu based on its stated mechanics, is relevant to Boruto, Hidari, and Code's power.

Aside from that it’s stated to have absolutely no limit to its power it just depends on how much energy u absorb

if I brought you every statement in Naruto of someone saying that another person was Omnipotent, had Immeasurable Power, Infinite Power, Limitless Chakra, etc.

You would know right away why this argument doesn't work.

The Japanese Language uses those types of descriptive words very loosely to emphasize a force being very powerful.

We know the energy of a planet's rotation isn't limitless because the planet would stop spinning entirely when the Shinju is done absorbing all the chakra on Earth for a Chakra Fruit.

it’s as strong as whoever is using needs it to be and does not cap the verse whatsoever

nothing so far has pointed to this,

We've gotten three statements that explain exactly what Uzuhiko is comprised of.

I don't think it's outrageous to say that Uzuhiko is exactly what it's described as in the manga rather than something far greater with no evidence yet of that being the case.

(This is coming from someone who doesn't actually think Uzuhiko hard caps the verse btw)

 

[Godernet]

Uzuhiko Rasengan

Energy Sources in Uzuhiko:


1. Boruto’s Chakra


Boruto’s personal chakra serves as the foundational energy input, powering the Rasengan on an individual level, in fact this is the primary source as stated in the Uzuhiko explanation

"A new form of Rasengan that utilizes not only one's own chakra, but also the planet's rotation and orbit, plus the corresponding centrifugal and other forces."

Nothing at all implies Boruto's power is the main source of Uzuhiko, as a matter of fact, it is probably the contrary given how much stronger the effects of a partially powered Uzuhiko were compared to his base Rasengan.

Boruto calling Uzuhiko Limitless, although very flower, still shows that he thinks highly of the raw destructive power of Uzuhiko.

“A new form of Rasengan that utilizes not only one's own chakra”


2. Planetary Rotation and Orbit


The Rasengan also taps into the rotation and orbit of the planet, potentially drawing upon the massive kinetic energy that results from these cosmic motions.


3. Centrifugal Forces


Alongside planetary rotation and orbit, centrifugal forces are cited, which further amplify the Rasengan’s energy.

all of this was in the Arc Calc and the part most consistently referenced across every explanation

4. Other Forces (Unknown or Hypothetical)


Beyond the explicitly mentioned forces, Boruto may be able to incorporate energies not yet fully explored , such as gravitational binding energy (GBE) or even forces like dark matter.

until something like this is said in the manga, it might as well be headcanon,

Not only is the "Other Forces" part only every brought up once, on the website. but even if their were additional forces involved, it only every mentioned after the fact.

when Uzuhiko is explained Ikemoto makes sure you hear every single time, "Energy of Centrifugal Force" and "Planet's Rotations" without fail.

Logically, what is more important to Uzuhiko's composition, the part that was carefully detailed in all four explanations? or the "other forces" brought up as a side point in one explanation?

For example, If I meet someone who has no idea what Cheese is and I say "It's comprised of Milk and other ingredients", would the assumption be that Milk is a less important part of making cheese than the unstated parts?

Limitless Energy Potential:

• “Never Runs Out”

A key argument in favor of Uzuhiko’s near-limitless potential is its ability to continuously absorb energy as long as the planet keeps spinning. Since planetary rotation is a constant and unending process, Boruto could theoretically keep drawing on this energy indefinitely.

Boruto specifically says "Semi-Permanent" not because it's actually permanent but because Code's small cyborg life span is irrelevant to how long it would take for a planet to stop spinning.

Also, Uzuhiko doesn't absorb chakra, it draws it to Boruto for him to direct into people.

 

[Godernet]

I'll answer more stuff tomorrow, if anyone wants their comment specifically addressed just tag it just in case I don't see it.

 

[karo_senpaii]

This uzuhiko arguments just feels like jumping the gun to me. I remember when boruto first used he jutsu on code. Due to the wordings then everyone shouted moon level verse and I was like "let's chill and let them flesh out the jutsu". We are repeating the same thing , it's pretty clear the jutsu has still not been explained properly.

At the same time do I understand the "soft cap arguments" ? Yes totally. I mean @Samlex1234 and co they are not actually saying that everyone is automatically below that value. They actually acknowledge boruto chakra plays a role. They are saying 4B is just so far away that a 5B energy should not be that relevant. I mean be for real that's a solid point there. The chakra not being additive arguments is weaker here coz this is a different scenerio entirely. I can't think of a case where someone used just one far weaker energy than they themselves and amped themselves thousands to millions of times.
They all involve using stronger chakra than themselves or fusing several different chakra.

Half of hag chakra didn't just match kaguya. It was half + 8. different tailed beast chakra + Naruto+ kurama.
And Naruto didn't grow billions of times.

So do I think this argument is premature? Yes. But do the people arguing the soft cap have better arguments? Absolutely

 

[MinatoSparkle]

They all involve using stronger chakra than themselves or fusing several different chakra.

Isn't that exactly what Uzuhiko does? While centrifugal force may be the main thing, there are multiple forces together, along with Boruto's own chakra

 

[karo_senpaii]

Isn't that exactly what Uzuhiko does? While centrifugal force may be the main thing, there are multiple forces together, along with Boruto's own chakra

You're right. But those forces are unknown which is why I think this is premature.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

You're right. But those forces are unknown which is why I think this is premature.

Sure, it's premature on both sides

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I'll answer more stuff tomorrow, if anyone wants their comment specifically addressed just tag it just in case I don't see it.

 

[Samlex1234]

Ok?

that doesn't really matter I'm ngl.

Uzuhiko is calced using what it was stated to be comprised of.

We also saw Boruto tag Hidari with a Rasengan that did much less damage than a nerfed Uzuhiko

Which at a bare minimum means the Planet's Chakra, when not even used at Maximum Output, a 5-B jutsu based on its stated mechanics, is relevant to Boruto, Hidari, and Code's power.

if I brought you every statement in Naruto of someone saying that another person was Omnipotent, had Immeasurable Power, Infinite Power, Limitless Chakra, etc.

You would know right away why this argument doesn't work.

The Japanese Language uses those types of descriptive words very loosely to emphasize a force being very powerful.

We know the energy of a planet's rotation isn't limitless because the planet would stop spinning entirely when the Shinju is done absorbing all the chakra on Earth for a Chakra Fruit.

nothing so far has pointed to this,

We've gotten three statements that explain exactly what Uzuhiko is comprised of.

I don't think it's outrageous to say that Uzuhiko is exactly what it's described as in the manga rather than something far greater with no evidence yet of that being the case.

(This is coming from someone who doesn't actually think Uzuhiko hard caps the verse btw)

What is this? honestly you totally addressed nothing? Even the main argument that Boruto Charkra plus planetary chakra might not be just a one plus one you totally ignored it. I have no incentive to arguing with you, you got the votes you need and I know nothing I say is stopping it. Enjoy man

 

[Godernet]

What is this? honestly you totally addressed nothing? Even the main argument that Boruto Charkra plus planetary chakra might not be just a one plus one you totally ignored it. I have no incentive to arguing with you, you got the votes you need and I know nothing I say is stopping it. Enjoy man

Boruto plus planet chakra not being “1+1” is pretty much entirely speculation, and probably not the case based on how the jutsu is described and how Boruto can hurt the Shinju without Uzuhiko, not to mention mechanically, Boruto’s chakra doesn’t mix with the planet chakra to magnify its power, you are misunderstanding what Uzuhiko is.

This isn’t even an argument at this point if there’s nothing that supports that.

I’m willing to be more verbose with my next comment if you provide a relevant counter to the OP that addresses the main issues rather than arguing the same thing that pm everyone that disagrees has tried in the past, it’s just not a good argument.

I have the votes but I’m not worried about getting this thread done immediately, if someone can come up with any kind of good argument I’m all ears, I don’t mind waiting a bit.

 

[Samlex1234]

Boruto plus planet chakra not being “1+1” is pretty much entirely speculation, and probably not the case based on how the jutsu is described and how Boruto can hurt the Shinju without Uzuhiko, not to mention mechanically, Boruto’s chakra doesn’t mix with the planet chakra to magnify its power, you are misunderstanding what Uzuhiko is.

This isn’t even an argument at this point if there’s nothing that supports that.

I’m willing to be more verbose with my next comment if you provide a relevant counter to the OP that addresses the main issues rather than arguing the same thing that pm everyone that disagrees has tried in the past, it’s just not a good argument.

I have the votes but I’m not worried about getting this thread done immediately, if someone can come up with any kind of good argument I’m all ears, I don’t mind waiting a bit.

Of course, we are all speculating, the whole point of my argument is that we have a lot of interpretations of the Jutsu not being a Cap to the verse. Don't forget this is your interpretation and I dare to tell you, that you are wrong. I promise you I have no incentive to do this with you any longer. Enjoy your Vote. enjoy your win, this is my last reply.

 

[PatatesR]

In general, I think this controversy is caused by some people and groups on the wiki who belittle different people's arguments and think that their ideas are no better than theirs.

 

[Godernet]

I’ll take a look in a bit

 

[Ryzen7900X]

hasn't this passed already?

 

[Damage3245]

More time needs to pass to cross the 48 hour threshold, but there are enough votes for acceptance.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I'm fine with Sparkle's version.

Could you ping the staff that commented on the original proposal to see what they prefer?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Could you ping the staff that commented on the original proposal to see what they prefer?

Who do you want me to ping? Sorry, I haven't been keeping up with the thread today.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Who do you want me to ping? Sorry, I haven't been keeping up with the thread today.

@LordTracer @KingTempest @Maverick_Zero_X

 

[Ar1216789]

So whats the conclusion here?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

My proposal:

Unless you construct an argument that has yet to be addressed, do not attempt to directly scale the ninjutsu or physical stats of Kaguya Otsutsuki, as well as other characters on her level or weaker, to the overtime capabilities of the Expansive Truth-Seeking Orb. The topic has been discussed many times over the years and has been deemed contradictory to the context of the jutsu's creation

- section about arguments that have been debunked many times

@LordTracer @KingTempest @Maverick_Zero_X
Hey fellas. Sorry for the ping.
Would you mind checking out Sparkle's proposal that I quoted above and decide whether you prefer it to the version is the OP or not? Thanks.

 

[KingTempest]

"On her level or weaker"

I don't think even those stronger should scale. People don't really have justification to scale and this is such an unorthodox technique that it makes little sense to do so

 

[Godernet]

Most of us agree or acknowledge that for now ETSO shouldn't scale to most people in the verse.

I specifically highlighted the characters that are weaker or at Kaguya's level since those people have many reasons not to scale and 0 reasons to scale.

Boruto is very volatile with new scaling info coming out every month pm so personally I feel like those Timeskip Characters can be left out of the discussion rule since while they don't have reasons to scale rn, they also don't have hard caps that stop them from scaling in the future like Shippuden Characters do.

 

[Godernet]

"On her level or weaker"

I don't think even those stronger should scale. People don't really have justification to scale and this is such an unorthodox technique that it makes little sense to do so

on that note, the more specific reason we're calling staff to take one last look is this Part of Sparkle's version

Unless you construct an argument that has yet to be addressed

vs mine

Until new information is provided by the series

I gave my issues with his version right here if you want to take a quick look

Although what I will say is that while I don’t really mind Sparkles version, “new argumentation” is very exploitable based on an individuals subjective view of whether their argument is something new that hasn’t been addressed yet.

Not to mention I imagine everybody that goes out of their way to make ETSO CRTs feels like they’re tackling the argument in a way that has never been done before otherwise or that the topic hasn’t been handled properly.

“New argumentation” is a very vague way to handle a discussion rule that at the end of the day is meant to stop constant spam of the exact same thread with slightly different flavors.

Not to mention at the end of the day no matter how we spin it, there is one manga panel and a limited amount databook information describing ETSO and nothing more to its merit with 10+ CRTs every year for 10+ years.

I really doubt there is something that would change the game just with a slight change in argumentation compared to the very daunting amount of evidence to the contrary.

It just feels too conservative and invites people to loophole their argument as something that’s never been done before.

Preciate you

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Tbf there are a lot of people (new members especially) that just don't know old threads have been made and/or their contents. Also, even if people recycle old arguments and say they're new, staff can point to the discussion rule's examples of old arguments and how these threads fall under one or multiple of them

And this is what I had to say about that. It's basically "never make ETSO threads again" vs "only make ETSO threads very conditionally" (I'm aware of the practical side to the first, I'm just speaking broadly)