See, we told you we were working on it! (Naruto Revision Part 1: Scaling)

[Arc7Kuroi]

there's also the added context of Naruto wanting to gain control of "Nine-Tails power".

My issue with this is that Naruto didn't fully tame/gain full control over the "Nine-Tails power" until KCM2's debut.

In the V2 forms, Kurama is the one in control, not Naruto. Kurama obviously knows how to create a Bijuudama, Naruto didn’t prior to his training. Also after linking with Kurama, he could create Bijuudama with no problem.

Also even in KN4, Naruto can create Bijuudama, and even if we said KCM is just above Sage Mode, that’d still put him above KN4. So the ability to create Bijuudama isn’t necessarily a power thing.

What if, "I'm stronger than when I fought Pain" wasn't restricted to AP

Making Bijuudamas is not related to power. It's just something that Kurama can do, but not Naruto. Even KN4 can make Bijuu bombs quite easily. It's more like because Kurama used to be in the driver's seat once Naruto used his V2 cloaks, and has control over his own power.
This is proven by the fact that KCM1 Naruto was later able to create Bijuu bombs after gaining Kurama's cooperation.

Also, we took this into consideration anyway because we don't scale KCM above KN6's TBB, but above his physicals. But since KN6 downscales from his TBB anyway, it ends being that KCM is ~ 2.4 GT.

I'll trust your judgment until my lazy ass rereads the series kekw, the last part seems fine from a conservative standpoint.

 

[LordTracer]

What if, "I'm stronger than when I fought Pain" wasn't restricted to AP

We discussed this too, Naruto said it immediately after doing something AP related, and there’s no extra context given, so when he says “stronger,” he does in fact, mean strength UwU

 

[Damage3245]

What if, "I'm stronger than when I fought Pain" wasn't restricted to AP

I brought that up as well.

He didn't even do something AP-related since it was just him growing a chakra arm to save himself from a boulder.

 

[LordTracer]

I brought that up as well.

He didn't even do something AP-related since it was just him growing a chakra arm to save himself from a boulder.

Damage, he crushed the boulder, that’s AP lol

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

My issue with this is that Naruto didn't fully tame/gain full control over the "Nine-Tails power" until KCM2's debut.

That's not the point. The point is that KN4 and KN6 are what Naruto himself considers to be "Nine-Tail's Power" at that point in time. He doesn't know how powerful Kurama or KCM2 actually are.

What if, "I'm stronger than when I fought Pain" wasn't restricted to AP

If you can offer proof for what the statement could be referring to other than the simplest interpretation, which is strength, then we can discuss this. But as it stands, this is moot.

I'll trust your judgment until my lazy ass rereads the series kekw, the last part seems fine from a conservative standpoint.

Fair.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I brought that up as well.

He didn't even do something AP-related since it was just him growing a chakra arm to save himself from a boulder.

If you can offer proof for what the statement could be referring to other than the simplest interpretation, which is strength, then we can discuss this. But as it stands, this is moot.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that Naruto saying he's grown stronger isn't restricted to AP in that scenario, but then again my knowledge on Naruto is limited to memory, so I can't exactly comment something with substance.

However, I do find it a bit sus that when Pain says Jiraiya would've won had he known their secret, we considered venues like "Jiraiya is a better strategist etc etc/it isn't inherently a strength thing" but for Naruto with KCM it is inherently a strength thing.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that Naruto doesn't surpass his V2 cloaks until KCM2, but I digress to the more knowledgeable members atm.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Personally, I'm of the opinion that Naruto saying he's grown stronger isn't restricted to AP in that scenario, but then again my knowledge on Naruto is limited to memory, so I can't exactly comment something with substance.

However, I do find it a bit sus that when Pain says Jiraiya would've won had he known their secret, we considered venues like "Jiraiya is a better strategist etc etc/it isn't inherently a strength thing" but for Naruto with KCM it is inherently a strength thing.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that Naruto doesn't surpass his V2 cloaks until KCM2, but I digress to the more knowledgeable members atm.

Yes, but unlike Jiraiya who IS proven to be an extremely haxed and brilliant strategist, who almost defeated Pain with said hax and strategies, KCM for Naruto is just a straight up power up. He gains no additional hax or versatility, only a large amount of Kurama's chakra.
And please don't start the whole "hE gAiNeD cHaKrA aRmS!" thing.....
Like c'mon lol. Chakra arms aren't superior to anything Sage Mode offers, hax wise. Sage Mode offers far better senses, combat speed, danger sense, and just straight up durability negation in the form of Frog Kata.
V2s can also use chakra arms, so it's definitely not what Naruto's referring to.

 

[LordTracer]

However, I do find it a bit sus that when Pain says Jiraiya would've won had he known their secret, we considered venues like "Jiraiya is a better strategist etc etc/it isn't inherently a strength thing" but for Naruto with KCM it is inherently a strength thing.

Tbh I don’t think you can really make this comparison, because these statements aren’t exactly the same. Pain said Jiraiya could’ve won, not that he was stronger. It’s entirely possible to win a fight while being weaker than someone, plus there’s a lot of extra context here that Slayer brought up earlier.

Meanwhile Naruto point-blank says “I’m a lot stronger,” no extra context, and he made the statement after destroying something - which is AP. Occam’s Razor and simple logic would point to Naruto’s statement of him being stronger… actually meaning that he’s stronger.

 

[KingTempest]

Yes, but unlike Jiraiya who IS proven to be an extremely haxed and brilliant strategist, who almost defeated Pain with said hax and strategies, KCM for Naruto is just a straight up power up. He gains no additional hax or versatility, only a large amount of Kurama's chakra.
And please don't start the whole "hE gAiNeD cHaKrA aRmS!" thing.....
Like c'mon lol. Chakra arms aren't superior to anything Sage Mode offers, hax wise. Sage Mode offers far better senses, combat speed, danger sense, and just straight up durability negation in the form of Frog Kata.
V2s can also use chakra arms, so it's definitely not what Naruto's referring to.

I mean...

Naruto can spam his strongest attack in KCM, while in SM he could only use it twice...

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Has the fact that Naruto can't make bijuudama in KCM because they're too heavy, yet he can with his V2 cloaks been addressed?

this has nothing to do with AP, it's about chakra control and getting the 8:2 ratio right, later on naruto straight up pushes a much larger tailed beast bomb through Multiple barriers.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I mean...

Naruto can spam his strongest attack in KCM, while in SM he could only use it twice...

Bro, Naruto spams the Rasenshuriken in Sage Mode far more than in KCM lol. He worked around his limitation to use it for up to 6 times, and he used it far more frequently in character.

Also people act like KCM has infinite chakra, he doesn't. Back then the form had a lot of limitations due to the risk of Kurama potentially taking Naruto's chakra and killing him. Naruto was not aware back then that Kurama was a tsundere who was gonna let him use the Chakra freely anyway.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Ya know what, I totally forgot that we accept more chakra = more AP. So KCM having the most chakra out of his previous forms would make it stronger as per what we accept here right? If so I can get more behind it.

 

[Nierre]

Naruto was not aware back then that Kurama was a tsundere

UwU

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Ya know what, I totally forgot that we accept more chakra = more AP. So KCM having the most chakra out of his previous forms would make it stronger as per what we accept here right? If so I can get more behind it.

I don't think this is necessary to prove that KCM is stronger, but yes, this is technically true as well. Naruto stole so much chakra, he made Kurama skinny.

 

[BlastX]

Technically KCM also allowed him to sense negative emotion and made trees grow so it did offer more hax than Chakra arms.

I still agree it refers to power, just wanted to correct that.

 

[EmilioRory10]

Technically KCM also allowed him to sense negative emotion and made trees grow so it did offer more hax than Chakra arms.

I'm not sure how reliable the Naruto wiki is but there it says that the white zetsus only turned into trees because of their genetical structure

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Technically KCM also allowed him to sense negative emotion and made trees grow so it did offer more hax than Chakra arms.

I still agree it refers to power, just wanted to correct that.

Sage Mode is confirmed to have a better danger sense, and is just more versatile in general when it comes to sensory capabilities.

As for growing trees.........
I think we can all agree that ability is irrelevant lol.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I think we can all agree that ability is irrelevant lol.

Naw it's the most pivotal hax in the series.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Naw it's the most pivotal hax in the series.

Only when used by Madara's crush lol.

 

[LordTracer]

Only when used by Madara's crush lol.

*husband

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

*husband

Madara longs for Hashi's wood

 

[RanaProGamer]

I don't think this is necessary to prove that KCM is stronger, but yes, this is technically true as well. Naruto stole so much chakra, he made Kurama skinny.

I think there might've been a panel that shows that naruto stole 5-6 tails perhaps?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Madara longs for Hashi's wood

And his BIG TREE MUSCLES.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I think there might've been a panel that shows that naruto stole 5-6 tails perhaps?

Dunno about tails, but he took a ridiculous amount of chakra. Definitely more than the little leaks that resulted in KN1-6 IMO.

 

[BlackeJan]

Really wish the Chikara arc wasnt freaking filler

 

[RanaProGamer]

Dunno about tails, but he took a ridiculous amount of chakra. Definitely more than the little leaks that resulted in KN1-6 IMO.

I thought like each tail showcases the level of power, since chakra = AP.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I thought like each tail showcases the level of power, since chakra = AP.

Well, yeah, each consecutive tail resulted in Naruto being stronger, yeah.

Though I have to say, this "Tail scaling" should probably apply to Naruto and Kurama only. I say this because the other Bijū and Jinchūriki don't seem to follow this system at all. Their V2 states seem to be comparable for the most part, same with their Bijū modes as the other Bijū were able to fight and harm Gyūki even though he's supposed to be far stronger due to having more tails.
It's just something that's only relevant for Kurama because Kishimoto decided to make him far stronger than the other Bijū for some reason.

 

[LordTracer]

because Kishimoto decided to make him far stronger than the other Bijū for some reason.

Because he’s the Bijuu that’s inside the protagonist smh smh

 

[Nierre]

Baryon Mode unironically stronger than 10 tails is something I'll never understand

 

[EmilioRory10]

Baryon Mode unironically stronger than 10 tails is something I'll never understand

Well it was showed by how much Momoshiki took to absorb 50% of Kurama's chakra vs how much he took to absorb Gyuki's chakra that Kurama has much more chakra than every other tailed beast, if the ten tails is the mix of the power of every tailed beast at once it shouldn't be too much difference from full Kurama, and Baryon Mode (if I understood correctly) is similar to using all of Kurama's chakra in low amounts of time, so it kinda makes sense (what doesn't make sense is how it shortens the lifespan of the enemy on contact)

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Well it was showed by how much Momoshiki took to absorb 50% of Kurama's chakra vs how much he took to absorb Gyuki's chakra that Kurama has much more chakra than every other tailed beast, if the ten tails is the mix of the power of every tailed beast at once it shouldn't be too much difference from full Kurama, and Baryon Mode (if I understood correctly) is similar to using all of Kurama's chakra in low amounts of time, so it kinda makes sense (what doesn't make sense is how it shortens the lifespan of the enemy on contact)

Technically Momoshiki only absorbed a tentacle clone of Gyūki, but yeah lol. It doesn't really matter.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

Baryon Mode unironically stronger than 10 tails is something I'll never understand

Personally I believe that down the line Boruto series will reretcon Ten Tails and it will a god power up again. The series has not been consistent. Jugen/Isshiki even used some Ten Tails chakra...

As for the thread I agree with everything presented.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Personally I believe that down the line Boruto series will reretcon Ten Tails and it will a god power up again. The series has not been consistent. Jugen/Isshiki even used some Ten Tails chakra...

Wellllll they’ve established that the ten tails can bare fruit that depends on the nutrition from its feed, so they got stuff to work with.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Boruto will be no canon in the end.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Yall will deal with @GokuSparkle anyway

Imma have a field day tmrw showing Minato's High 7-A+ to probably 6-C+. Also it seems to be consistent that I'm infamous as a Minato wanker now lol. Whether it's VSBW or Quora the rep will never go away.

The multiplier has been removed due to a CRT. Another CRT is trying to get it back, but it's kind of on hiatus.

The Kirin calc needs a CGM thread to get it accepted first.

Not for long.

Rasa has unknown physicals, and due to the off-screen nature of their fight, it could've been a simple assassination.

Sasori doesn't scale to the 3rd Kazekage's Iron Sand physically for similar reasons.

The anime disagrees.

 

[LordTracer]

to probably 6-C+

COUGH

NOTE: Please refrain from discussing scaling related to the Bijuu, or really anything Tier 6 for that matter. That will be saved for its own thread in the future.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

The anime disagrees.

Rasa has unknown physicals, and due to the off-screen nature of their fight, it could've been a simple assassination.

• Incredible Physicals for Rasa
• Doesn't even seem to be a fight
• Seems like a simple suprise attack

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Imma have a field day tmrw showing Minato's High 7-A+ to probably 6-C+.

Just leave any Bijū scaling out of it for now. That will get its own thread because it's a heavy and controversial topic that definitely deserves to be focused on exclusively. We also didn't want the shit show that'll inevitably ensue to interfere with the revisions for the Mid to High tiers...........again.

Also it seems to be consistent that I'm infamous as a Minato wanker now lol. Whether it's VSBW or Quora the rep will never go away.

RIP lol. Definitely not going away anytime soon at this rate

Not for long.

We'll see how it goes.

The anime disagrees.

Anime's irrelevant and non-canon.

But even if we use it, like, he's still completely featless physically, so it really doesn't matter.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

They have ass feats and scaling for the most part, so...

Idk about that one.

It's stated FKS Sasuke (cause that's the last one Suigetsu saw, with the Skeletal Susanoo) had JUST surpassed Orochimaru, likely meaning Sasuke is stronger than Ribcage Susanoo FKS Sasuke or at the very least Early FKS Sasuke.

To be honest that line of logic still feels rough to me; it's mostly there just because KCM Naruto himself is lacking in feats.

If there was some adequate replacement; I'd take it.

I mean...I know Bijuu scaling isn't supposed to be brought up but KCM Naruto does have some physical feats against the Bijuu...

Yes, but unlike Jiraiya who IS proven to be an extremely haxed and brilliant strategist, who almost defeated Pain with said hax and strategies, KCM for Naruto is just a straight up power up. He gains no additional hax or versatility, only a large amount of Kurama's chakra.
And please don't start the whole "hE gAiNeD cHaKrA aRmS!" thing.....
Like c'mon lol. Chakra arms aren't superior to anything Sage Mode offers, hax wise. Sage Mode offers far better senses, combat speed, danger sense, and just straight up durability negation in the form of Frog Kata.
V2s can also use chakra arms, so it's definitely not what Naruto's referring to.

To be fair the ways he uses his chakra arms are way more versatile than the way he uses them in V2. Plus the shenanigans he pulled off with those chakra arms were pretty insane.

Well, yeah, each consecutive tail resulted in Naruto being stronger, yeah.

Though I have to say, this "Tail scaling" should probably apply to Naruto and Kurama only. I say this because the other Bijū and Jinchūriki don't seem to follow this system at all. Their V2 states seem to be comparable for the most part, same with their Bijū modes as the other Bijū were able to fight and harm Gyūki even though he's supposed to be far stronger due to having more tails.
It's just something that's only relevant for Kurama because Kishimoto decided to make him far stronger than the other Bijū for some reason.

I'm pretty sure number of tails correlates to percentage of power, so 1 tail for Matatabi's Jinchuriki could for example be 50% while 1 tail for Kurama's Jinchuriki could be like 11% so that would explain it (not saying it would actually be 50% and 11%, just an example)

• Doesn't even seem to be a fight
• Seems like a simple suprise attack

Orochimaru was literally in front of him, so....Also wasn't it implied Kimimaro helped in the defeat of Rasa implying it was a battle?

Just leave any Bijū scaling out of it for now. That will get its own thread because it's a heavy and controversial topic that definitely deserves to be focused on exclusively. We also didn't want the shit show that'll inevitably ensue to interfere with the revisions for the Mid to High tiers...........again.

RIP lol. Definitely not going away anytime soon at this rate

We'll see how it goes.

Anime's irrelevant and non-canon.

But even if we use it, like, he's still completely featless physically, so it really doesn't matter.

Hm..........that's fine I suppose but tbh it's easier arguing for Minato being Tier 6 than High 7-A+ lol, I like working with a handicap anyways (although I might end up bringing up some things Tier 6 related that isn't DIRECTLY related to the Bijuu).

Nah, but at least I'll earn a rep as a good Minato wanker soon enough. Soon, very soon...

What's your stance on that now?

I guess, although the fact that Rasa didn't have time to block that implies Orochimaru blitzed him or something.

 

[LordTracer]

Hm..........that's fine I suppose but tbh it's easier arguing for Minato being Tier 6 than High 7-A+ lol, I like working with a handicap anyways (although I might end up bringing up some things Tier 6 related that isn't DIRECTLY related to the Bijuu).

EXTRA COUGH

NOTE: Please refrain from discussing scaling related to the Bijuu, or really anything Tier 6 for that matter. That will be saved for its own thread in the future.

No Bijuu, no Tier 6, period. The only characters with Tier 6 stuff in the sandboxes are ones that were forgotten in prior revisions.

Orochimaru was literally in front of him, so....Also wasn't it implied Kimimaro helped in the defeat of Rasa implying it was a battle?

Anime. Anime not canon. Anime doesn’t get used.