Kaguya's ETSO The Final Chapter: Part 1, Episode 2

[DavidTPPM]

My lazy ass dropped the thread few days ago what's the current conclusion?

 

[LordTracer]

I still prefer Godernet’s version of the rule. As it’s been mentioned before, the wording of MinatoSparkle’s version leaves too much room for exploitation. Also, no other discussion rule has been as vague and up to user interpretation as “unless you think you’ve made a new argument”, and I don’t think something that’s been as frequently rejected as this should have such a caveat.

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah, I think there's enough support to apply it now.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Yeah just apply and close this thread at this point. I'm eagerly waiting for arc's thread

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I still prefer Godernet’s version of the rule. As it’s been mentioned before, the wording of MinatoSparkle’s version leaves too much room for exploitation. Also, no other discussion rule has been as vague and up to user interpretation as “unless you think you’ve made a new argument”, and I don’t think something that’s been as frequently rejected as this should have such a caveat.

But people aren't really overly exploiting even the current discussion rule, there's merely a few threads sent in that's countable on your hands

 

[Godernet]

I don't see the reason of mentioning the jutsu having the same attack power as a normal rasengan unless it exclusively has the same ap, if his own power was insignificant it wouldnt make sense to make mention of it
If it was purely converted into zettatons for boruto to fire at the enemy then we would not see side effects like destroying their sense of balance and having a ceaseless recurring effect

if we analyse what the database entry listed

Boruto Database: Rasengan Uzuhiko | NARUTO OFFICIAL SITE (NARUTO & BORUTO)

Rasengan Uzuhiko Classification: Ninjutsu Wielder(s): Boruto Uzumaki

naruto-official.com

it NEVER once states that AP is added to the jutsu (utilising a force =/= only can be used in ap)

Uzuhiko's AP is verbatim stated to have boruto's rasengan ap and NOTHING ELSE, the rotational forces affect Code's sense of balance and applies the attack in a different style

I think this is a misinterpretation of how the jutsu works,

Let me break down this Jutsu description bit by bit rq

"A new form of Rasengan that utilizes not only one's own chakra, but also the planet's rotation and orbit, plus the corresponding centrifugal and other forces."

Q: What do we know from this?

A: Uzuhiko is a Rasengan that utilizes the caster's innate chakra and the various energies involved in a Planet's rotation.


"In addition to the damage that a standard Rasengan causes, it destroys the target's sense of balance, debilitating them."

Q: What do we know based on this?

A: Rasengan Uzuhiko causes two types of damage:

• Physical because at the end of the day, it's still a Rasengan.
• Mental by destroying the target's sense of balance.

This statement never separates Boruto's chakra from the Planet's chakra to imply that the Planet's Chakra is only responsible for the Mental Damage whereas Boruto's Chakra is only responsible for the AP aspect.

In fact, Boruto's fight with Hidari straight-up shows that the opposite is true.

Boruto uses a Rasengan on Hidari but does pm inconsquential damage

Boruto decides it's best to use Uzuhiko at Maximum Output so that he can one-shot Hidari.

This shows that not only is Uzuhiko stronger than his normal Rasengans, but that the output of Uzuhiko directly correlates with its AP.

As well as that there is "no limit" to Uzuhiko's power.

We then see a non Max Output Uzuhiko erase most of Hidari confirming it does more physical damage than a normal Rasengan.

The entire context of the scene is about physically damaging Hidari and then it is confirmed, we can pretty much say with almost 100% certainty that Uzuhiko is stronger than his normal Rasengan and that the Planetary Chakra does amplify the attack power of Uzuhiko.

 

[Godernet]

There isn't really any statement that tells us she is pumping energy every second while the process of the jutsu

There really doesn't need to be.

ETSO was shown to be forming from the continuous IT Chakra being added to a TSO.

We know it's continuous therefore we know it's constantly moving towards its end point which is destroying the dimension.

If we know how much is destroyed (the dimension), and have a timeframe (which we do have one that was lowballed for the sake of having something calcable)

Then we have all we need to determine how much energy would need to be pumped per second for the Jutsu to reach its minimum stated end point.

it's finished production is what zetsu says so all which that requires addition of chakra is already done unless I'm missing something

Sasuke says that it is continuing to grow, so it is not complete.

it is called an "Expansive" TSO for a reason.

It will continue to grow until it destroys the dimension it's in.

it's not like TSO are Bijuu Bombs, they don't explode.

The ETSO would have kept expanding in size until it destroyed everything in that dimension.

and this should scale to Kaguya post IT absorption and the only ones that would scale to that version of hers are maybe kakashi and momoshiki, Kinshiki.

Why would they scale to the value we give to the jutsu expanding overtime for an unquantifiable amount of time until it destroys Kaguya's World?

The 15 timeframe is bogus it shouldn't be anymore than 10 minutes either due to the two statements implying it'll happen swiftly

As far as I know there are no statements that say ETSO will grow to the size of the entire dimension "quickly", and even then thats not a very quantifiable timeframe.

But if you could drop them I can take a look.

that's why Shibai ascended to a higher dimension so the default assumption should be IT Chakra goes into Kaguya who makes the ETSO instead of IT chakra's one portion going to her and the other part going to ETSO

The problem with your logic is this,

Kaguya did make the ETSO before splitting off from it, however, this ETSO that we see here was not going to destroy the dimension, what was going to destroy that dimension is that ETSO, growing and growing and growing, until it eventually could.

If this was something like Naruto Storm 4, where the ETSO rapidly expands to a decent size and then just explodes, where you can somewhat imply the dimension was destroyed due to an explosion rather than a continuously expanding, self-sustaining, ball of energy that the creator isn't actively involved with the expansion of after a certain point, then you might have more of a reason to argue that.

 

[Godernet]

Took me a bit to come back to this, was kinda busy.

As far as I understand Damage and Tracer agreed to my version.

Slayer doesn't mind it either way from what I heard last, and KT while not specific in his last comment, did express his opinion of ETSO scaling which kinda leaned more toward what I was proposing.

Could you ping the staff that commented on the original proposal to see what they prefer?

Besides Mav, who hasn't popped up again, it seems like everyone has pretty much shared their stance already, wanna give it more time? I'm not pressed either way and it'll give me some time to draft up the final version.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Took me a bit to come back to this, was kinda busy.

As far as I understand Damage and Tracer agreed to my version.

Slayer doesn't mind it either way from what I heard last, and KT while not specific in his last comment, did express his opinion of ETSO scaling which kinda leaned more toward what I was proposing.


Besides Mav, who hasn't popped up again, it seems like everyone has pretty much shared their stance already, wanna give it more time? I'm not pressed either way and it'll give me some time to draft up the final version.

Sure

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Boruto uses a Rasengan on Hidari but does pm inconsquential damage

Boruto decides it's best to use Uzuhiko at Maximum Output so that he can one-shot Hidari.

This shows that not only is Uzuhiko stronger than his normal Rasengans, but that the output of Uzuhiko directly correlates with its AP.

This is not due to increased AP, the nature of Uzuhiko is that instead of a traditional attack sending damage in a straightforward manner, Uzuhiko coils around and destroys the target using a vortex that spins violently to the point of negating their durability, just because x couldnt beat y but z could doesnt necessarily mean z>>>x
we need to make note of how that result was attained.

Instance 1 : Boruto incorporates the Kinetic Energy of the Earth's movement into his increasing his attack potency, greatly intensifying his power output, for this interpretation we should not be seeing the side effects that occur mentally, we should not see the jutsu coiling around and having Code feel a spinning sensation
After all there is no reason for that to occur since we are assuming all the KE energy was used to bump up his joule count to a higher number, this assumption relies on poor assumptions that make little sense

Instance 2 : Boruto incorporates the spinning and movement of the planet and replicates the same effect to the Jutsu's victims, since the enemy is met with said spinning force instead of normal damage, this makes perfect sense for the character to loose his sense of balance and suffer through psychological damage

Code straight up remains standing after being blasted with the Jutsu emphasizing it is less about the damage done initially but rather the side effects that occur overtime even more reason to disagree with a greater power output, He is not falling on the ground initially despite being thrown back

As you can see in this panel Code is being afflicted with the effects over time, had this bumped simply attack power Code would not be standing and falling a while later, he would be hit with the full force and stay withering on the ground instead of having its effects intensify over time (TLDR he should fall down at first instead of remaining standing and then slowly falling down and then suffering indicating the latter effects dealt more trouble)


So far the only evidence you had (that I read at the time of writing this) to back your point is proven NOT mutually exclusive to your interpretation

Some Additional things I would like to add is that Boruto's Rasengan unironically damaged Hidari to the point of needing to heal himself through those roots, your argument works in a way of saying "x is bigger than y despite both being able to penetrate z so x has greater ap/piercing power" which is incorrect.
A charged Uzuhiko was able to cover more range as well as incorporate the spinning force which destroyed Hidari's body, quite literally nothing in this gives you more AP

Uzuhiko is indeed stronger than his normal rasengan and that's because of it's additional effects rather than greater power output, a claim that is proven to be consistent with it's showings

Sorry for making this super long

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

There really doesn't need to be.

ETSO was shown to be forming from the continuous IT Chakra being added to a TSO.

Based on what information did you deduce this part? We saw chakra flow up each time they get mentioned instead of it occurring passively in the background, not only that even assuming Kaguya is being pumped with IT chakra each second of the fight (Makes no sense to assume that because after the statement and showing of IT chakra absorption she was stated to have increased stats, by your interpretation it would be illogical to say there was a significant increase as that significant increase would be happening every second)

As I was saying even assuming that you would need to prove that she was pumping chakra every second consciously for 15 years straight (bro come on I know you don't believe this)

Sasuke says that it is continuing to grow, so it is not complete.

it is called an "Expansive" TSO for a reason.

It will continue to grow until it destroys the dimension it's in.

it's not like TSO are Bijuu Bombs, they don't explode.

The ETSO would have kept expanding in size until it destroyed everything in that dimension.

Jutsu Execution being a continuous process =/= Jutsu production being a continuous process
I would interpret this similar to Pain's Shinra Tensei, in both scenes the writer is trying to show a jutsu gradually destroying large structures for the sake of creating hype, it not being instant destruction is not evidence to say it hasn't finished building up energy or that if the user falters it will stop midway that is a very out of place assumption with no backing whatsoever

Why would they scale to the value we give to the jutsu expanding overtime for an unquantifiable amount of time until it destroys Kaguya's World?

Using Bijuubombs as a reference to understand this as they are visually similar, you see them initiate as tiny orbs, they are not credited for being orbs but rather what they expand into which is large scale destruction that ranges across Tier 6, we assume the orb in their mouths would be that strong ap wise even if they didnt expand simply because they carry the energy inside them, when they finish production they already have the same energy regardless of form, In absence of solid counter evidence this should be the default assumption paired with the fact that Zetsu straight up says it's production is complete

As far as I know there are no statements that say ETSO will grow to the size of the entire dimension "quickly", and even then thats not a very quantifiable timeframe.

But if you could drop them I can take a look.

There were two, both of them were in the scan you linked

Sasuke says that it is continuing to grow, so it is not complete.

^^

Kakashi says even if they escape into another dimension they are not gonna be able to return implying it's size will massively increase to the point of not having enough room for Team 7 to return for combat purposes

Naruto and Sasuke acknowledge that this is a grave issue that needs to be dealt with which is why Naruto follows up Sasuke's dialogue by saying it is necessary to seal her NOW emphasizing the destruction is a pretty quick process

[In The Anime 14:33 Episode 473] it is also portrayed as growing pretty quick which would justify Kakashi and co's comments about the Jutsu

The problem with your logic is this,

Kaguya did make the ETSO before splitting off from it, however, this ETSO that we see here was not going to destroy the dimension, what was going to destroy that dimension is that ETSO, growing and growing and growing, until it eventually could.

If this was something like Naruto Storm 4, where the ETSO rapidly expands to a decent size and then just explodes, where you can somewhat imply the dimension was destroyed due to an explosion rather than a continuously expanding, self-sustaining, ball of energy that the creator isn't actively involved with the expansion of after a certain point, then you might have more of a reason to argue that.

This part was a little confusing for me to read, making me think there were multiple ETSOs shown, I will be assuming you meant the ETSO's size is enlargening to the point of destruction which I am not necessarily against but do not see the line of justification for that claim.
Now based on the databook descriptions it implies otherwise as simply growing doesn't really lead to beyond subatomic destruction that it has hyped up, it also states that it hides "world erasing powers" within, as stated twice to be like the TSO it would have traditional destruction/erasure since that is what we have seen with their miniature counterparts, I'm not sure how that proves Kaguya is constantly pumping in chakra to it so I'll await for you to correct me

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Also,
the title of the CRT says P1E2, may I see the episode 1 if that exists?