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Sealing Away Naruto's 5-B in a Chibaku Tensei

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Damage3245 said:
When have they ever shown the capacity to amp their stats to the same level as the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei?
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Hagoromo is manipulating that level of Chakra, if not more, in both activating the Jutsu (Which is not possible by in-verse rules unless he is able to produce and control said chakra) as well as portioning his Chakra between Naruto and Sasuke.

Sasuke by the end of the war is stated by Kurama to have the same skill level in manipulating Chakra like Hagoromo.

Therefore, Chakra Control dictates they can use said Chakra to amplify their stats. To suggest they can’t is to suggest they aren’t able to manipulate that volume of Chakra, which isn’t the case, and Ninja are shown amping themselves consistently throughout the series since Part 1. They do it all the time using Shunshin even as an example.
 
@TFO; that doesn't answer my question, as far as I can tell.

Simply controlling one's chakra doesn't necessarily mean that the character's physicals should scale.
 
KingTempest said:
Screw that
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No…
KingTempest said:
The OP shows there’s much more chakra on their seals than in the rest of their bodies
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I’d argue that’s only the case due to the FACT the Jutsu was in the process of activating, which is why Kaguya threw them away. This is also not unfounded as it’s not the first time Chakra pools in a specific area in the body in preparation for a Jutsu.

Case in Point:

0641-008.png

The Seals are the only point through which SPCT can be activated, but it is not exclusively the place where all their Chakra Reside, and as stated, they retained the Chakra, so the point is moot.
KingTempest said:
We know they’re amped by SPC. That isn’t an issue nor a debunk.
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And their SPC amp comes from Hagoromo’s Chakra. The same Chakra that powers the Jutsu. The same Chakra that can be used to amp themselves via CC.
KingTempest said:
We also know they aren’t amped by the same amount of SPC.
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Not innately, no (Which I stated in my Original Response). That’s not to say they don’t have the chakra to amp themselves with. If that’s the argument, you have to prove Naruto and Sasuke post SPCT don’t have the that level of Chakra. But just to remind you, chakra regenerates and if you agree that they are perm amped by Hags SPC, you also have to yield to the fact that that Chakra used for SPCT would regenerate, as with all Ninjutsu. The seals are required set up for the Jutsu, not the chakra.
KingTempest said:
Source doesn’t matter. It’s the amount they’re amped with
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And via CC, they can amp themselves beyond their innate levels. Naruto does this passively with Chakra Modes, but can go further via CC, as shown with his fight with Toneri.
 
TFO said:
No…

I’d argue that’s only the case due to the FACT the Jutsu was in the process of activating, which is why Kaguya threw them away. This is also not unfounded as it’s not the first time Chakra pools in a specific area in the body in preparation for a Jutsu.

Case in Point:

0641-008.png

The Seals are the only point through which SPCT can be activated, but it is not exclusively the place where all their Chakra Reside, and as stated, they retained the Chakra, so the point is moot.

And their SPC amp comes from Hagoromo’s Chakra. The same Chakra that powers the Jutsu. The same Chakra that can be used to amp themselves via CC.

Not innately, no (Which I stated in my Original Response). That’s not to say they don’t have the chakra to amp themselves with. If that’s the argument, you have to prove Naruto and Sasuke post SPCT don’t have the that level of Chakra. But just to remind you, chakra regenerates and if you agree that they are perm amped by Hags SPC, you also have to yield to the fact that that Chakra used for SPCT would regenerate, as with all Ninjutsu. The seals are required set up for the Jutsu, not the chakra.

And via CC, they can amp themselves beyond their innate levels. Naruto does this passively with Chakra Modes, but can go further via CC, as shown with his fight with Toneri.
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...what?

They weren't even activating the jutsu when Kaguya saw their chakra overshadow everything else in their bodies.

And Naruto was already in KCM when we see his chakra throughout his bodies.

Nobody said they don't have the chakra to amp themselves through that. We said the chakra in their seals for the jutsu >>>>> all the chakra in their body separate.

This is unfounded in its issues entirely
 
Damage3245 said:
@TFO; that doesn't answer my question, as far as I can tell.

Simply controlling one's chakra doesn't necessarily mean that the character's physicals should scale.
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It does answer your question. The Chakra is the key. Co-oping Ebisu’s Explanation, if SPCT (For Arguments Sake) requires 20% of Naruto’s Chakra and 20% of Sasuke’s Chakra that they received from Hags, those 20% Values would be the portions of the justu N&S scale to individually. CC dictates Naruto & Sasuke can use that 20% to amp their physicals or other Jutsu.

If SPCT in this example represents 40% of Hags Chakra, and Hags has feats of manipulating and controlling that level or more, then yes, Sasuke being comparable in skill means via CC, he can amp his Physicals and other Jutsu with that 20%.
 
TFO said:
It does answer your question. The Chakra is the key. Co-oping Ebisu’s Explanation, if SPCT (For Arguments Sake) requires 20% of Naruto’s Chakra and 20% of Sasuke’s Chakra that they received from Hags, those 20% Values would be the portions of the justu N&S scale to individually. CC dictates Naruto & Sasuke can use that 20% to amp their physicals or other Jutsu.

If SPCT in this example represents 40% of Hags Chakra, and Hags has feats of manipulating and controlling that level or more, then yes, Sasuke being comparable in skill means via CC, he can amp his Physicals and other Jutsu with that 20%.
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If that was the case we'd never rate any of the character's jutsu above their own physicals, but we do.
 
KingTempest said:
...what?

They weren't even activating the jutsu when Kaguya saw their chakra overshadow everything else in their bodies.
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This is literally the 2 pages before the scane you and the OP are using…

0679-009.png

0679-010.png
KingTempest said:
And Naruto was already in KCM when we see his chakra throughout his bodies.
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The cloak Naruto uses is not an active use of CC. It’s a passive feature of Kurama’s full power being used, just like Six Paths Madara and Juubito being cloaked in Juubi’s Chakra is a passive feature. CC can be stacked ontop.
KingTempest said:
Nobody said they don't have the chakra to amp themselves through that. We said the chakra in their seals for the jutsu >>>>> all the chakra in their body separate.
Click to expand...
The Chakra in their seals is not separate from the chakra in their body. As explained, the “Seals” are a requirement for the Jutsu, not the chakra.
KingTempest said:
This is unfounded in its issues entirely
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It’s not.
 
Damage3245 said:
If that was the case we'd never rate any of the character's jutsu above their own physicals, but we do.
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It’s literally how the verse works though. Like I said, it’s not their “innate” base levels (Which Is why I both Agree and Disagree), but the verse dictates they can amp themselves with it.

This is literally stated in the DB where Sakura and Tsunade’s strength comes from. This is how Shunshin works. This is how Kakashi/Sasuke is able to use Chidori and Raikiri, etc etc. the list goes on. All of these things are byproducts of Chakra Control as per the manga and Databooks.

This is not interpretation, but LITERALLY a acknowledgement of what’s explained and shown.
 
KingTempest said:
You're misinterpreting "can amp physicals with chakra" to "can amp physicals with the same amount of chakra they can use in their far stronger ninjutsu", which is never stated at all
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It’s not a misinterpretation. I have already proven the OP is misinterpreting the Seal Scene with scans. I have already proven Naruto and Sasuke have the skill level to manipulate those quantities of Chakra through scaling to Hagoromo’s skill level.

You have to prove they aren’t able to do that and literally the only restriction to it is a “Skill Issue” with the Ninja.
 
KingTempest said:
I don't have to prove a negative wtf
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Your argument at this point is baseless. I’ve proven they can they can control and manipulate that amount of Chakra. CC, dictates they can amp themselves with said chakra, which is already explained in canon through percentage based means.

You making the claim they can’t amp themselves with that percentage of chakra is baseless and not supported in the series. It’s not a negative, but your argument has no basis in anything.

My ACTUAL argument you are wrongly conflating to a negative, is that they have the skill to control chakra amounts that exceed SPCT’s cost, and the ability to amp themselves with that chakra via CC.

Now your can either prove they cannot, and note proof of control over that chakra and application of CC Based Strength Amps is more than enough to disprove you, or you can concede as you don’t have a valid argument against what i’m saying… 🤷‍♂️

Or don’t. I’ve made my case.
 
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Now that I think about it, since Hagoromo said Madara is almost as strong as him despite him having the ability to do SPCT, wouldn't 5-C physicals, and 5-B with strongest ninjutsu for God Tiers be reasonable?
 
MinatoSparkle said:
Hagoromo didn't say Madara can punch almost as hard as me, he said he's getting close in general, which should include Hagoromo's ninjutsu like SPCT.
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So you'd scale Madara to Hagoromo's absolutely strongest technique which needed an entirely different person to do, and that giving the chakra to do it was so much of his chakra that he couldn't even do a summoning jutsu, and say that that's Madara's casual power
 
KingTempest said:
So Naruto hits as hard as his rasenshurikens

Crazy
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If that were the case, then why the hell did Naruto ever have to concentrate his entire cloak to knock out Toneri?

Clearly the Chibaku Tensei shouldn't be scaling to physicals and honestly Jutsu in general shouldn't anyways.

What's the point of Rasengan if Naruto could just punch that hard with his Chakra anyways?

What's the point of a Bijuudama if he could literally concentrate all that power into his smaller fist? By surface area, this would be much more powerful and efficient, so why doesn't he do it?

Because it clearly doesn't work like that.

I agree with the OP.
 
KingTempest said:
So you'd scale Madara to Hagoromo's absolutely strongest technique which needed an entirely different person to do, and that giving the chakra to do it was so much of his chakra that he couldn't even do a summoning jutsu, and say that that's Madara's casual power
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??? Didn't you read what I said initially? I said with strongest ninjutsu. And I'm saying Madara can downscale from Hagoromo's value of the CT, not the CT as a whole. It's no simple summoning jutsu since it's bringing them from another dimension, which Hagoromo even states would take a vast amount of chakra. And it's not like the seals were only for the SPCT and nothing else, it's also just chakra that can be used for ninjutsu, so there's no evidence that the SPCT = the entirety of the seals' chakra, and there's actually evidence to the contrary. Just think about it. Base Hagoromo could contribute half of the chakra of the 5-B CT after fighting Kaguya for a long time, yet Juubi Hagoromo's entire chakra supply can barely fuel a much weaker CT?
 
It's not THAT outrageous to believe that casual ninjutsu and taijutsu won't have the same output as a Chibaku Tensei.
Even though Naruto uses UES, we (whether consciously or unconsciously) try to correlate the showings case by case.
Which was why the Bijuu scaling doesn't have most of the characters scaling directly to the bomb's yield.
Or Naruto with the Cho Oodama Rasengan

That being said.
If certain characters have statements of being stronger than the football guys, they should be scaling to/above the CT throw and not just their regular stats.
The throw isn't a suicide move like C0 or an external amped move like ETSO.
 
LordTracer said:
With how many people are getting caught up on where the characters are going to scale after this, even though that isn’t the point of the thread, I have to wonder if it’d be better to wait until Shadow’s GT revision to apply this?
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I don't know what Shadow is cooking up but it's possible new feat/calc will be added to that thread (because a simple scaling change probably won't take this long) so this would be moot regardless.
 
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