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Sauce's Teleportation Jutsu is just a glorified Substitution LMAO

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Damage3245 said:
If we make a list of all the profiles in a sandbox, I can apply them one afternoon this weekend.

Obviously most Shinobi will get it, but not every single character.
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Off the top of my head, all Konoha Ninja, Pain, and Konan should get it. Gaara as well if I'm not mistaken.
Other than that, I'm not sure tbh.

Once we decide who should get it, I can make the sandbox with the list of profiles and the accepted version of the ability that we need to add. (with references and scans, of course)
 
I updated Option 2 in the OP to better reflect what we've discussed so far.
 
I thought it worked by tricking the opponent into thinking it's them but actually its just an object they were fighting the whole time... or used a clone with an object

Kinda like you make everything beforehand and tricking them that it's them but it actually isn't, it's just an object 🤷‍♂️ something like that

that's what I personally think it is (timing, skill and illusion based)... And nothing in this thread contradicts it and nothing in this thread has changed my mind on that... Yee... That's all
 
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I agree with option 1. No argument against it explains the fact that characters with restricted movement can get out of the place. We must also consider that it has already been used in environments where there are no trees nearby (in the Jiraiya vs Pain fight), which makes the speed justification even stranger, this justification puts absurd FTE feats. Shunshin sometimes seem to give FTE in comparables characters, but not like that. The simple act of thinking that the character runs at high speed, picks up a log somewhere and places it where place he was just to create an optical illusion seems absurd and much harder to believe. I think in the beginning it was actually intended to be just a high speed technique, so KT's argument seems to make sense at first, but is later seen being used differently, as if it were a teleportation. And about the constant use of the technique, it is used even in Boruto, I can't post scans or links now, but I remember that in the novel "Boruto the movie" Sasuke uses this technique to dodge an attack from Momoshiki, and Kakashi uses it in the anime (Ep 37 I think) to switch places with Boruto's clone. I think the limited teleportation justification is the most believable here, I think the examples given by KT are from the beginning of the series and do not justify the later events (especially in situations where the character is immobilized), so I go with option 1.
 
We must also consider that it has already been used in environments where there are no trees nearby (in the Jiraiya vs Pain fight), which makes the speed justification even stranger, this justification puts absurd FTE feats. Shunshin sometimes seem to give FTE in comparables characters, but not like that. The simple act of thinking that the character runs at high speed, picks up a log somewhere and places it where place he was just to create an optical illusion seems absurd and much harder to believe
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That's why it is a stupid jutsu.
 
Ignoring contradicting to accept Option 1 is strange to me, can't we do the same and say Option 2 is fine and ignore the contradictions there? Why is it alright to say that it can't be speed since people can get out of restraints. But not okay to say that it cannot be teleporting because people have made actions during this time?

Such as Naruto using the jutsu to save people, which isn't possible with the option 1 above. Since he cannot teleport to replace himself, but also move and grab people.

In fact this picture alone basically shows teleporting not being possible. Naruto has moved Inari out of the way, but the log doesn't appeared until later. And we can see speed lines to show that motion was taking place, that Inari was suddenly pushed away.

He even grabs the mother as he is passing by. So unless Naruto made multiple rapid teleportation in quick succession. I don't see why we have to make up an ability. The move is never stated to be teleporting, and is something people are making up in order to explain an inconsistency that is them escaping holds.

Which can just be ignored and not explained, they somehow escape holds as well. The entire jutsu itself is filled with PIS, trying to make it teleportation is actually just a bad move all together. Because nothing in universe ever makes it be teleporting, just that there are moments where the substitution doesn't make sense.

Which should just be treated as PIS. We should not be trying to find some work around by making it a different power in order to explain the PIS away. The move even in recent stuff is still explained as high speed movement, not teleportation or space manipulation. (Which is something we're making up because we don't understand the move)

Sasuke literally got an ability that was the Substitution Jutsu, but it was actual teleporting instead of movement.

Until someone actually explains away KingTempest reasons above, I don't see how Option 1 be accepted.
 
The speed option also has many issues that are present in other examples. I've outlined more issues with it than just them getting out of holds.

I don't think zoning in on one example out of many where the speed makes way more sense than the "teleportation" is necessarily fair, because one can easily do it the other way around tbh.

And that's, really, kinda the whole point I was making by including both interpretations. Neither one is perfect or without contradictions. Hell, neither one fully makes sense tbh.

However, I completely understand your guys' aversion to option 1 due to it not lining up with the official explanation. That's a perfectly valid reason to reject option 1 if I'm being honest.

Also, I've been thinking. It doesn't really have to be actual teleportation or actual movement, necessarily. It could be a sort of......Blink type movement. For those of you who haven't played Dishonored before, Blink is a move that very closely resembles teleportation for all intends and purposes, but is actually just a really high speed movement that takes you from point A to point B without actually "moving", you just kinda get warped to your desired location at high speed. I believe that's similar to what Tempest suggested above, and is how Shunshin is portrayed sometimes.

This won't really change anything about option 2, but it is an interesting way of visualizing it I believe.

 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
The speed option also has many issues that are present in other examples. I've outlined more issues with it than just them getting out of holds.

I don't think zoning in on one example out of many where the speed makes way more sense than the "teleportation" is necessarily fair, because one can easily do it the other way around tbh.
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I was making a point since both sides are doing it.

In case I haven't made it clear, there are contradictions everywhere. I believe there is an equal amount of stuff that doesn't make sense for either side, so going to the official explanation makes more sense to me. As we are pulling teleportation out of nowhere and is brought up for zero reason.

Because we can't accept the official explanation, so what we come up with must be better? If we can ignore one side contradictions, we can ignore the other. If we can't ignore either contradictions, why not just pretend the ability is just a bunch of PIS and isn't worth all of this?

Teleportation is just coming out of nowhere, a made up power to try an explain away PIS scenes. While instead of doing what we always do on this wiki, accept the official explanation of the power. Which has been stated over and over again, and the contradictions that are just PIS.

When has this wiki ever tried to explain away PIS by changing how something is stated to work, instead of accepting as being nonsense. This jutsu, no matter which way you slice it is never going to make 100% sense. And going through all of this to try and get it to make sense is pointless.

Why teleportation, and not highspeed movement and intangibility? What makes teleporting any better than something like that? If we're going to make stuff up, why can't we say they can chose to be intangible when moving as well? Since that would also fix the restraining issue.

That part is joking since I'm not serious with intangibility. Just trying to make a point.
 
Okay, so I checked, and Gaara didn't actually use the Substitution Jutsu. He just slipped out of his Sand Armor when Lee wasn't looking.

This means that only Konoha Ninjas should get this. It's a basic part of their fundamental ninja training, and has been shown by numerous low and high ranking Shinobi from Konoha, so yeah.
Pain and Konan will get it due to being trained by Jiraiya, in addition to Pain actually using the technique.

If you guys remember any statements or showings of other villages having this Jutsu as part of their academy training or even showing it in action, that'll help.

Anyway, I'll make the sandbox later today when I get home.
 
TheRustyOne said:
Ignoring contradicting to accept Option 1 is strange to me, can't we do the same and say Option 2 is fine and ignore the contradictions there?
Click to expand...
Option 2 is the one that has the most contradictions, while option we have only 2, which would be this scene of Inari being saved and the explanation of the manga. But both can be easily explained, and I'll get to that shortly.


TheRustyOne said:
Such as Naruto using the jutsu to save people, which isn't possible with the option 1 above. Since he cannot teleport to replace himself, but also move and grab people.
Click to expand...
The option 1 is still possible, the OP made a reference between this technique and Sasuke's teleportation, and it really makes sense, Sasuke's teleportation in addition to changing places with something, he can also change the positions of things, or bring someone / something close to him, in this case of Inari, Naruto may have used the technique to change Inari's place with the log and not with himself. And does this make sense? well, I don't have any examples in the canonical media, but in the anime Indra catches a fish, and his brother Ashura catches a log, Indra to not make his brother sad changed the place of the log with the fish he had caught earlier, and the log was nearby of the lake while they were further away. I made a description because I can't send a gif or image now but that happens in EP 465. Although it's filler, it's an example similar to this scene from Inari.



UchihaSlayer96 said:
If you guys remember any statements or showings of other villages having this Jutsu as part of their academy training or even showing it in action, that'll help
Click to expand...
Apparently Kankuro switches places with his puppet, this happens in chapter 70.
 
Now doing research, I checked and found out that Itachi's substitution can't be used as a comparison/antifeat/support.

It works completely different from substitution... like it's stated to.

Itachi's Story novel
Itachi stared at the older students, his own arms hanging loosely at his sides. If it came to that, he intended to get through this with a substitution technique that made use of cloning.
His substitution technique was unconventional. Normally, the ninja switched out their own body for a log with a tag attached immediately before an attack, in order to confuse their opponent. But rather than a log, Itachi’s version used countless crows.
Click to expand...
The spy’s kunai dug into Itachi. But he had used a substitution technique, transforming into an enormous murder of crows, and then counterattacked. The rest of it went as noted already.
Click to expand...
The giant ball of flames ripped Itachi into countless pieces, which transformed into a myriad of crows that
attacked all at once.
Substitution.
The real Itachi was running around behind Shisui.
Click to expand...
 
KingTempest said:
Now doing research, I checked and found out that Itachi's substitution can't be used as a comparison/antifeat/support.

It works completely different from substitution... like it's stated to.

Itachi's Story novel
Click to expand...
It's the same exact Jutsu, but instead of using a nearby object such as a log, it uses his crow clones as a medium instead. We already know it can be used with clones as we saw in both the Kakashi (vs Naruto) and Madara examples. Itachi just uses it with his brand of clones.
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
It's the same exact Jutsu, but instead of using a nearby object such as a log, it uses his crow clones as a medium instead. We already know it can be used with clones as we saw in both the Kakashi (vs Naruto) and Madara examples. Itachi just uses it with his brand of clones.
Click to expand...
Kakashi also does the same with Boruto in the anime, switching places with a Boruto clone.
 
Well, I'll talk more about it.

About the Inari scene, it is the only one that could actually make option 1 strange, but besides having more than 1 example that makes option 1 more viable, even this Inari scene can be explained. I mentioned in the other comment that he could have swapped Inari with the log and I gave a similar example that happened in the anime, Naruto may have actually run at high speed and saved Inari and his mother, but what's the sense of him putting a log to deceive opponents? he supposedly had enough speed to save the 2 without giving opponents reaction, but using the log didn't make much sense. My interpretation of the scene is that he runs and saves both, but in the case of Inari he changes his place in a similar way to what Indra did in the anime and thus managed to save him, it doesn't mean that he himself ran with the log in his hand and put in Inari's place, it might have happened like I said.

It was mentioned here that "nothing indicates to be a teleportation", however the explanation of speed is not repeated in the databook, usually the techniques explained in the manga have their explanations repeated in the databook even if it is not with the same words. However, this technique does not have the repeated explanation, at no point is it mentioned that it is a high speed movement, it is simply said that the character switches places with something without mentioning speed, so this shows that even the author did not keep the mechanics that had previously mentioned. Shunshin also looks like teleportation, and the author cites this in the explanation in the databook and says that although it looks like teleportation, it's just a high-speed move, but it doesn't do the same with this technique.

And I also think that his intention was not to create a teleportation, the technique is not a Space-Time Jutsu, however it literally changes the positions of something without a physical movement, it may be that the author himself did not think that this switching takes place "moving through space-time" like a teleportation jutsu, but still put an instant switch places and here on this wiki this is treated as Teleportation.

And I was forgetting, but there's an interesting example in the first movie (Ninja clash in the land of Snow) where Sasuke was completely frozen, but he came out of the freeze by switching places with something that was very far away. If you guys want to check it out, it happens around the 53rd minute of the movie.
 
I agree that this Jutsu is absolutely the dumbest thing ever, but we have to go with something since we can't ignore it due to how prominent it is. Option 1 makes more sense to me but we can't just throw out the statements for it either so I'll begrudgingly agree to Option 2.
 
i chose option 1 because thats how it looks in Naruto Storm games, tbf, the manga makes it confusing asf, i guess i prefer it as ''replacing itself with any object'' or something, which is like option 1
 
Funny thing, this is exactly like Randy Cunningham stealth mastery...

Look at his ninja tabber in the powers and abilities section and you'll find the scan of him appearing on a lunch room table as of he teleported. However in verse it is treated as him having super stealth and just escaping super fast. So don't get me wrong, I fully understand the speed/stealth arguments but I just see it as a form of teleportion in my honest opinion.

If we go with option 2, I don't mind because this was the same thingbi did with Randy Cunningham, I just favor the teleportion argument more.
 
Sorry needed to comment, I'm done 😅 ...

I don't see where the teleportation or limited teleportation comes from... Many statements contradict it, no actual proof of teleportation and just interpretation of what's happening because we don't actually know what's happening so teleportation is the only option if we only go by what's shown in the manga... Idk

I would easily pick option 2, I just don't see limited teleportation.
 
I don't think that just because it's "stupid" it should be discarded, and I don't think we should ignore all demonstrations.

We could do something like this then:

Afterimage Creation, Stealth Mastery, and Speed Enhancement or Limited Teleportation. (The Substitution Jutsu allows its user to instantly replace themselves with a nearby object such as a tree log, plant, person, or clone at the exact moment they are attacked. The Jutsu works even if the user is physically restrained or observed by characters as observant as Sharingan or Sage Mode users. This creates the optical illusion of the user being hit, which confuses the opponent and gives them an opening to flee or counterattack. The explanation of the technique does not look like the demonstrations, because it is explained that it is a high speed movement but this happens in situations where movements are not possible.)

I'm no expert with words so someone could make a better justification and we'll be done with this.
 
Okay, so here's the updated tally:

Those who are for option #1: Confluctor, Expectro2000xxx, LordGriffin1000 (?), theultimate5105, BlastX, GTsek, Bernkastelll

Those who are for option #2: KingTempest, Arc7Kuroi, Nierre, CiscoTheSoto, TheRustyOne, LordTracer, Damage3245, XSOULOFCINDERX, MonkeyOfCringeLife, Jvando, Shadowbokunohero

Neutral: Myself, and kinda LordGriffin1000 as well

11 to 7 in favor of option 2, with significantly more staff approval. So option 2 prevails.

I made the sandbox with the accepted changes and the list of characters that should be getting it. If I missed anyone, please lmk.
vsbattles.fandom.com

UchihaSlayer96/Substitution Jutsu Revision

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
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Looks like it.

I'll perform a mess edit to replace "can replace himself with inanimate objects to avoid damage" with the new abilities descriptions, then after that it's just a matter of making sure the categories are in correctly.

Also, some characters may not have that exact text in already, so I'll double-check for them.
 
Mass edit is done. As expected a lot of characters didn't have the exact wording, so will be spending some time later today applying the change to them.
 
A potential issue i noticed is most characters already have speed enhancement with Shunshin so we are basically adding it twice to every profile. I'm not sure if you can somehow mass edit the profiles that have the speed enhancement with Shunshin and somehow change it.

EDIT: We can possibly put at the ending :Can further increase their speed with Shunshin" or something along these lines.
 
Wrath_Of_Itachi said:
A potential issue i noticed is most characters already have speed enhancement with Shunshin so we are basically adding it twice to every profile. I'm not sure if you can somehow mass edit the profiles that have the speed enhancement with Shunshin and somehow change it.

EDIT: We can possibly put at the ending :Can further increase their speed with Shunshin" or something along these lines.
Click to expand...
I already thought about this. When I fix the P&A sections, I'll just add the Shunshin description to the "Statistics Amplification" descriptions.
It'll probably be something like "Can enhace their physical capabilities with chakra, including their speed via collecting chakra at their feet". Wording will probably change, but you get the idea.

Damage3245 said:
Mass edit is done. As expected a lot of characters didn't have the exact wording, so will be spending some time later today applying the change to them.
Click to expand...
Thank you so much, Damage. I really appreciate the help.
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
I already thought about this. When I fix the P&A sections, I'll just add the Shunshin description to the "Statistics Amplification" descriptions.
It'll probably be something like "Can enhace their physical capabilities with chakra, including their speed via collecting chakra at their feet". Wording will probably change, but you get the idea.


Thank you so much, Damage. I really appreciate the help.
Click to expand...
That's good then, I'll get to editing the open profiles and adding categories and wont worry about Shunshin.
 
Okay, I'll give it a go.

EDIT: We'll also need to add reference sections in for some characters.
 
I believe most, if not all, of the characters have them at this point thanks to the AP revisions. Actually, the Boruto era characters and some of the God tiers probably don't. But all the characters from Part I and II should have references sections I believe.
 
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